Osterman says what I think
- Thread starter crazed_hoosier2
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With all due respect, this is a loser's mentality -- and, IMO, the single biggest reason why we seem to have been stuck in a rut for some two decades. Because I think yours has been the prevailing opinion among the Trustees and Administration for all that time. And, really, how's that worked out for us?
Our program is not culturally geared towards winning. As such, it is not surprising that we haven't done much of it -- and certainly not on any kind of consistent basis. We don't simply need a coaching change, we need a paradigm shift.
The basic gist of what you're saying is "We're not the program we used to be and so we have to accept prolonged periods of mediocrity while we build it back into a consistent winner....and we can't do that by only giving a coach 3 years to do no more than make the tournament field. And we can't just have our pick of coaches...lest we end up with Mick Cronin."
One problem with this calculus is that we landed the (arguably) top young prospect in coaching when we hired Archie. If Archie wasn't at the top, he was near it. He was in a position where he could've picked his spot, rather than the other way around. Of course, few would've predicted at the time that he would have such a lack of success by year 3. But that's beside the point -- the point, as it relates to what you're saying, is that we succeeded in getting somebody almost anybody with an opening would've hired. Go back and find commentary from OSU fans around the period that Matta was out, as one example.
A really useful analogy for us, I think, is Alabama football. The program etched its place in college football royalty under Frank Thomas and Bear Bryant, of course. Perkins, Curry, and Stallings were only moderately successful as Bryant's successors. But the program went through a dry spell through the coaching staffs of Dubose, Franchione, and Shula before they finally decided to flex their muscles in hiring Saban. They remembered who they were. And the PTBs knew they were better than the less-than-stellar results they'd been getting for too many years.
Now, they could've said "We've got to stop cycling through coaches! It's only going to put us farther away from where we want to be!" That's essentially what you're saying we should do. But, no, that's wrong. And now, the memories of the down years with Shula etal are increasingly distant. They found their guy -- and they did so because they demanded results.
We, like Alabama, need to remember who we are. We need to upend the culture of a mediocre has-been with some banners and a legendary venue -- because that's the culture we now have. And we're not going to get rid of it by continuously "waiting it out." We need to demand results -- and, if we don't get them, hold the people we've hired to get results accountable.
I'd be more sympathetic to your argument if there were tangible signs that we've moved in the right direction by now -- even if we weren't all the way there. But those signs aren't there. The product Archie has put on the floor -- fully 2.5 years in -- is absolutely lackluster. It's never been anything but lackluster.
And it's getting harder every day for him and his defenders to blame Tom Crean.
There were blunders made in the aftermath of the Knight firing... but that's ancient history at this point. There is no lack of commitment to the BB program.... no lack of resources..... there isn't going to be any paradigm shift that's going to sprinkle magic fairy dust on Assembly Hall.
No offense, but this idea that if we just announced to the world we are really, really serious THIS TIME about winning and it shall be.... well that is nothing but emotional fan message board bullshit.
Alabama football hired Saban..... someone who already won a freaking national championship. Is IU hiring someone of that stature? If so, absolutely.... let's go for it. But we aren't and won't be... unless some perfect stars align. We'd be hiring the next Archie, at best.... if you notice we are trending downward in coaches with successful histories/ resumes..... Sampson to Crean to Archie.
Next guy will either be a washed up retread or the prior Summit League COTY.
Butler seems to be doing fine with their 11-24 record coach who had 1 year experience, just saying.
Jordan was part of the Butler family.... both as a player and an assistant.... they have an identity as a program which has resulted in sustained success over the last couple decades, regardless who they seem to bring in to coach.
Your Saban example is spot on. I just don't see Saban's "equal" in the college basketball universe. There's going to be a huge change in the next couple of years. Among those retiring/moving on will include Krzyzewski, Roy Williams and Self. The feeding frenzy on who ends where will be intense. Outside of Butler's/Boston's wonder boy, who can be our Saban? Duke, UNC and Kansas will spare no expense.
Better to grab someone now. I just wish someone could tell me who that guy might be. I doubt there's any amount of money I can imagine that would knock Stevens on his ass. And, if there were, IU ain't going to pay it.
So, IU will continue to roll the dice. Mark Few, Calipari and Jay Wright aren't going to move. IU is not going to shoot for the moon. I'd like to think they might .... but they won't. So, I'll just crack open the Woodford early today and salute the banners we have ........
And I hate that this is to what we've been reduced.
I didn't say there was a lack of commitment to the program. What I've said -- and is irrefutably true -- is that there is (a) a culture that is centered around something other than winning, and (b) a lack of accountability that is largely the result of (a).
You want to see what I think is a good example of somebody laser-focused on success and the accountability necessary to achieve it? Go watch Chris Ballard's recent press conference about the Colts disappointing season. He didn't sugarcoat anything. He was unusually blunt about Brissett's status, he made it clear that Ebron wouldn't be returning, he discussed Vinatieri's troubles and their decision to stick with him, other positions where they have issues.
And who did he keep coming back to as being responsible for all this? Himself. He owned it looking backward, and he owned it looking forward. And he made it absolutely clear that the results weren't satisfactory and that changes would be made until they were.
Compare that to what we see and hear from IU. There's rarely any evident dissatisfaction, from Miller, Glass or anybody else. There's nobody shown to prolonged periods on the bench by the coaches. There's nobody called out and put on the spot. That absolutely screams "cultural problem." Well, either Archie is the guy who's going to change a culture that desperately needs to be changed, or else he's assumed the role of guardian of it.
I don't think we need to go out and hire Billy Donovan, BTW. I also don't think we need to double the money.
The first thing that needs to be done is decide whether or not we're absolutely committed to restoring a winning culture. Because I honestly don't think that's been done. How else to describe a situation where coaches are not only held onto past it becoming evident they weren't up to the task? That's been obviously true of 2 recent coaches -- and I think we're in the process of seeing it a third time.
Once we decide we're absolutely committed to returning to prominence, then the matters they deal with on a daily basis will be looked at in a different light. For instance, how does the program deal with a player who isn't holding up their end of the bargain in achieving our goals? Are we going to keep playing players who keep making the same mistakes and not correcting them? Or are they going to find a spot on the bench until they do? Because, to date, it seems like there aren't any consequences for lack of discipline and development. And nobody can deny that.
And if these benched players get disgruntled and leave, then they'll have done us a favor. Not only will their poor attitudes will become somebody else's problem, they'll have freed up a space for somebody who absolutely is committed to excellence.
Now, I'm not saying that I want us to hire him. But it's easy to name somebody who operates in this kind of manner and has the results to show it. Bruce Pearl. I watched him up close here at USI. His success at places he's gone since, and now Auburn, has not surprised me. He's an energetic guy who absolutely demands similar energy and results from his players. If he doesn't get it from somebody, there are consequences. And that player probably won't be with the program long.
You think he inherited a better situation there than Archie did here? Hell no, in all sorts of ways. His teams have consistently gotten better since he's been there and now are among the nation's best.
It can be done. It is being done. Just not here. And it's not because we haven't given it enough time. It's because what needs to be changed hasn't been changed, despite Archie having nearly 3 years to change it -- which is reason enough to presume that a year 4 (let alone 5) aren't going to see it changed either.
The key in my analogy, though, isn't so much Saban. It's Alabama.
One of twenty's basic contentions is that we can't expect to get back on track without a long slog of crap years (as if we haven't already had enough of them) because it's been so long since we were "Indiana". As such, he thinks the wrong thing for us to do -- because it's "emotional fanboi stuff", or whatever he said -- is to cycle through coaches without giving them at least 4 or 5 years to prove themselves, no matter how things go in years 1-3.
But I don't see it that way. He and I are looking at this two different ways. I'm not just talking about a coaching change. I think it goes deeper than that. I do think a coaching change is almost certainly going to have to be part of it. But not for it's own sake.
I think we need a wholesale shift in attitude and approach -- what I keep referring to as culture. Some people might hear that and think "So you want us to start playing fast and loose with the rules, is that it?" No, it's not. The biggest thing I think we're lacking right now is a climate of accountability. This is not only evident in the way the administration approaches the program -- have you ever heard Glass utter even a single word of displeasure in Archie's results? -- it bleeds right down to how the coaches approach the players.
You want a good example? When it became clear that Romeo was a poor outside shooter, what came of it? Well, he kept shooting 3's -- at a clip of roughly 4 a game, despite connecting on just north of 25% of them. In a climate of accountability, he'd have either seen his attempts go down to around 1 or so...or else he'd have seen his minutes or touches declined.
But it didn't take a genius to see that the coaches weren't running Romeo so much as the other way around. Because he kept launching them up, clanging rims all around the country, and seeing pretty much nothing in the way of consequences for it.
I don't know who the right "guy" is. That's not my point. My point is that I don't think we've actually diagnosed the problem correctly yet. I don't think we realize that we need something more than a coaching change. Once we determine that we do, hiring the right coach to do it will flow from that understanding.
Oh, I get what you're saying. I agree with it completely. We've seen it with the football program for decade after decade. It will take a lot to turn around this carrier. I'm doubtful that the PTB at IU have the will or even see this as an option. I know they don't possess the ability.
Yup, grad transfers ALWAYS work as intended. Just ask Fitz. ANY transfer or recruit is a crap shoot. 5*'s less of one. Outside of Brunk (who Crean didn't recruit), every 3rd+ year player on this team is Crean's). Do you think IU fan's would be any happier had we kicked Crean's players off, started over. and willingly taken at least one APR post season ban? This revisionist history of what Archie took over is ridiculous. Personally, I'm happy he worried about upgrading the post and PG first. The two freshmen have been awesome. The players he has brought in have all contributed, and we do have shooters coming in next year. It takes time and a plan to do a full rebuild (and Morgan, Johnson, and Davis were the only B10 ready pieces he had when taking over...then Davis picked up more injuries). Again, the only Jr or Sr on the team Archie recruited was Brunk. I'll admit it wasn't as bad as the situation Crean took over, for obvious reasons, but you can't build a program without time AND the right recruits. Stop comparing to coaches who took over complete or almost complete programs/rosters. There is no comparison there. There is a comparison to what Beilein took over at UM (including record). It took him 4 years to make that program competitive. He took over a better put together roster, with maybe slightly less talent. Then again, firing coaches every 3 years has a massive track record of success at every level, doesn't it? Just post the program records to prove your opinion.
UHHHHHHHH North Carolina fired Matt Doherty and two years later won a Title.
Archie almost seems afraid of the crean recruits he refuses to bench them or hold them accountable for anything from what I see. Roy Williams benched his starters twice vs Ohio State so don't say you can't be tough on kids anymore. Thst is nonsense. You can't be like knight but you can certainly bench them.
It's also worth remembering that Bama didn't just "go out and hired Saban". They stumbled with the likes of Mike Dubose, Dennis Franchione, and Mike Shula before hitting on Saban. Yes, the key is they got him, but they struggled with coaching hires for almost 20 years after Bear Bryant. I don't think we're prepared to drop the cash for our Saban, but it doesn't mean IU can't or won't be successful again.
The bottom line is Archie should have put Devonte Green in his place on day one. His teammates likely think Green is cool because he hangs out with his brother and Lebron James, but he is setting a terrible example. He has bad body language, and will only try to make a play if it has an opportunity to make Sports Center. He is the classic little brother. Then again, so is Archie.
I agree. But, still, the point I'm trying to make isn't that the key to success is finding the biggest coach and dropping the biggest dime. That may or may not be necessary, but I really don't think it is.
In fact, I'd argue that it works better the other way -- "Go prove to me that you can produce teams that play at a high level and we'll get you paid." We just did that with Tom Allen. Texas Tech did it with Beard. Heck, Virginia did it with Tony Bennett and he directed them to spend the half-million dollar raise they offered on assistants and facilities.
The key thing here isn't how big the name is or how much money is spent. The key is the commitment to winning and the insistence that it happen. We're spending pretty big money as it is. But we're not getting positive results -- and I would argue that it's because there aren't such clear expectations. Davis never should've been hired at all. On top of that, both he and Crean got more years than they should've gotten. Now Miller's going to get at least one year he shouldn't get. This isn't impatience, it's cutting bait as soon as you know the bait's not going to attract the fish you want.
Again, twenty's general outlook is almost certainly what has prevailed at IU for the past couple decades. If there was any departure from that, it was in the Sampson hire. And that's obviously a shame -- because our lone experience with stepping outside our usual box ended in sanction and scandal.
But we shouldn't let that deter us from stepping outside it again. We just need to make sure it's the right guy. And I really don't think it has to be some big splash hire along the lines of Donovan or Stevens.
Great post......I'd also say look at OSU football....Earl Bruce & John Cooper looked like solid hires....neither worked out......then Tressel and his NC and later problems and Fickell.....then UM comes in as the perfect hire.
The best example of what you're saying was Glass' "complete rebuild" comment. Horrible.
I would love to know EXACTLY what CAS told Green two years ago. Obviously it wasn't 'my way or the highway'
We need somebody like PJ Fleck, who I consider a Crean but with substance. There's a saying that you always hire a coach who is as different from your previous failed coach as you can find. In our case, Archie was billed as a serious, no-nonsense personality. That didn't work....the next guy will have to have some energy.
I’m loving the calendar creep in your posts. First it was “in year three,” then it was “fully 2.5 years” followed by “nearly 3 years.” For the record it’s less that 2.5 seasons and he won’t have been at IU for 3 years until March. Carry on though. It’s all interesting, but Miller won’t be fired this year and will Coach next year. Doubtful he’ll be fired after that, but at least it won’t be pissing into the wind if the rest of this season and next season really do suck. If they do, and I still don’t think they will, I’ll join you in the pissing, but it’ll be downwind for me.
I’m loving the calendar creep in your posts. First it was “in year three,” then it was “fully 2.5 years” followed by “nearly 3 years.” For the record it’s less that 2.5 seasons and he won’t have been at IU for 3 years until March. Carry on though. It’s all interesting, but Miller won’t be fired this year and will Coach next year. Doubtful he’ll be fired after that, but at least it won’t be pissing into the wind if the rest of this season and next season really do suck. If they do, and I still don’t think they will, I’ll join you in the pissing, but it’ll be downwind for me.
Well hopefully he gets on track THIS year and it all becomes a moot issue. The Sterling fictional conversation between Knight and MIller is pretty damning. If this season ends poorly I think the noise will get loud enough he won't want to come back. "Help is hardly on the way." I truly believe just squeaking into the tournament this year will give him another chance to recruit and another year without the mob banging down his door.
I don't know what's damning about a fictional conversation, but I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post.
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