"Not his best work, but his most depressing"

[Marvin the Martian]

That was a critic's review of Burns' Vietnam. I find that review amazingly accurate. Of course, even not being his best work it is still some of the best television ever.

Episode 1 was so frustrating. The number of times Vietnam could have been stopped long before any serious thought of American involvement was amazing. Ho of that era had no political belief, he just wanted independence. But we only think in dualities, either Ho was pro-American or Marxist. If he was pro-American than he should want the US helping him run his country. The pity.

Episode 2 pretty much was the Karl Rove was right tour, JFK was a neo-con. The times he admits the war cannot be won but we have to stay the course is quite damming of his legacy. Several friends have refused to drop the Kennedy banner, suggesting he would have withdrawn after re-election. I do not believe that, there is always another election. Maybe he does not "surge", to steal a modern concept, like LBJ. But I think there is no way he risks Democratic votes.

Unless, and there is an unless, RFK had more sway than i thought. RFK was farther removed from daddy Joseph's influence of building a legacy. RFK seemed, in just a little reading, more inclined to put right ahead of politics.

Beyond JFK were the military men that seemed to be on the ball. Men who knew the leadership of South Vietnam was not supported, who knew the consequences of killing "suspected" guerrillas. I will admit, that is the Vietnam legacy I have been taught, and having men on the ground in 1962 saying it just confirms my bias that way.

One of the books on the Korean War spoke of American difficulties in finding allies in the Cold War. We typically looked for someone who had some power that we could work with, and pushed them the rest of the way to the top. It did not matter so much if they held a similar world view. The Soviets went deep and found true believers, then bumped them to the top. They tended to share the same world view.

Our system clearly had failings, as we see from South Vietnam. We were not aligned with leaders concerned about "The people". When one side believes in a cause, and the other in graft, it is hard for the other to win. North Vietnamese were willing to fight to the last man, South Vietnamese were willing to fight to the last American dollar.

 

[Ohio Guy]

I'm looking forward to watching this series. I heard Burns and Lynne Novick in an interview talk briefly about what you alluded to in episode one. In a nutshell, he said no administration wanted to be the one that 'lost' a war or publicly deemed it unwinnable because as you said, the next election is coming up. That made me wonder why Johnson not seeking re-election wouldn't have freed him up to make such a proclamation.

One thing Burns or Novick said in that same interview I found interesting/heartbreaking was one Vietnam vet's frustration over reading in the Pentagon papers that McNamara had stated that he felt the war was unwinnable as early as 1965 and he wasn't deployed until 1968. In a nutshell it made him question all the deaths after that statement and what he ended up fighting for.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

In a nutshell it made him question all the deaths after that statement and what he ended up fighting for.

My brother was there mid 68 to mid 69. I have never had a real chance to speak to him about Vietnam, take every stereotype of PTSD and you have Brent. Add in that he had a son born with spina bifida from Agent Orange and I certainly question what it was about when we knew it could not be won.

 

[Noodle]

My brother was there mid 68 to mid 69. I have never had a real chance to speak to him about Vietnam, take every stereotype of PTSD and you have Brent. Add in that he had a son born with spina bifida from Agent Orange and I certainly question what it was about when we knew it could not be won.

I am ashamed to admit that I had never heard of Agent Orange causing spina bifida until reading your post (and some brief side reading). So tragic, particularly under the circumstances you describe.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I am ashamed to admit that I had never heard of Agent Orange causing spina bifida until reading your post (and some brief side reading). So tragic, particularly under the circumstances you describe.

Sometime after I lost total contact with my brother, the government acknowledged the connection. I hope by that point his by then ex wife was able to benefit from it.

 

[Rockfish1]

One vignette from Episode 2 involved a guy from small Missouri town whose father had served in WWII. He talked about how all the adult males in his life were people who'd been lucky enough to return from WWII or Korea. They were heroes to him. He joined the Marines, because he wanted to be like his heroes, and he believed in the cause.

With restrained emotion, he said that he belonged to the last generation of Americans who earnestly believed that their government would never lie to them. A gut punch.

 

[PurdueTiger]

One vignette from Episode 2 involved a guy from small Missouri town whose father had served in WWII. He talked about how all the adult males in his life were people who'd been lucky enough to return from WWII or Korea. They were heroes to him. He joined the Marines, because he wanted to be like his heroes, and he believed in the cause.

With restrained emotion, he said that he belonged to the last generation of Americans who earnestly believed that their government would never lie to them. A gut punch.

He said it all,didnt he?And he admitted he still has to sleep with a night light on.

 

[Rockfish1]

He said it all,didnt he?And he admitted he still has to sleep with a night light on.

That got me too. ("If we don't get a night light, why does Daddy need a night light?") I need to keep tissues handy when I watch this stuff.

 

[Rockfish1]

That got me too. ("If we don't get a night light, why does Daddy need a night light?") I need to keep tissues handy when I watch this stuff.

Really, though, as much as I get emotional when I hear these testimonies, what those in uniform deserve from those who are not is that we be worthy of the sacrifices we demand. That we only put them in harm's way when we've tried everything else, and it's vital that we take action. That we send them on a well-conceived mission that actually will achieve our national security imperatives. That we give them everything they need in battle. That we honor and support them when they come home.

But this requires us civilians to do more than get emotional watching a Ken Burns documentary. This reminds me of that.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The one thing I can say after episode 3 is this, we should demand an end to the open ended declarations of war. Congress should be required to watch before passing any declaration of war.

For any conservatives reading, take down any JFK and LBJ monuments you want.

 

[Noodle]

what those in uniform deserve from those who are not is that we be worthy of the sacrifices we demand.

That is one of the most profound and true statements ever posted here.

The right of free people includes the right to be a self-centered fu$k-up. The obligation of free people is not to be.

 

[PurdueTiger]

My brother was there mid 68 to mid 69. I have never had a real chance to speak to him about Vietnam, take every stereotype of PTSD and you have Brent. Add in that he had a son born with spina bifida from Agent Orange and I certainly question what it was about when we knew it could not be won.

I am very sorry about these tragic things that happened to your family.Is there anything worse than war?The late Congressman Andrew Jacobs Jr ,a decorated Marine Veteran of the Korean War once said a nation should only go to war when it has to,but in Viet Nam American fought because they had a chance to.I think He nailed it.

 

[Noodle]

I am very sorry about these tragic things that happened to your family.Is there anything worse than war?The late Congressman Andrew Jacobs Jr ,a decorated Marine Veteran of the Korean War once said a nation should only go to war when it has to,but in Viet Nam American fought because they had a chance to.I think He nailed it.

Welcome! Boiler Up!

 

[IUCrazy2]

I am very sorry about these tragic things that happened to your family.Is there anything worse than war?The late Congressman Andrew Jacobs Jr ,a decorated Marine Veteran of the Korean War once said a nation should only go to war when it has to,but in Viet Nam American fought because they had a chance to.I think He nailed it.

We ended up wrong on that conflict because we were more interested in supporting our allies claims (France) after WW2 then we were in allowing people their own self determination. As was mentioned above, Ho Chi Minh was fairly agnostic on politics after WW2. He came to the major powers looking for self determination for his people. We rebuffed him, the Communists supported him, and the rest is history.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Welcome! Boiler Up!

Is this your doing?

On point: I haven't watched any of it yet, but I'm recording every episode. Just don't have the time to dedicate to it this week.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Is this your doing?

On point: I haven't watched any of it yet, but I'm recording every episode. Just don't have the time to dedicate to it this week.

The thing is, like his other work, there isn't anything groundbreaking. Everything that has angered me has been out there in books for a long time. But it takes time to read books. To hear these recordings over and over again in a couple nights is so much more depressing.

The person I want to read up on was heavily covered on night 2, John Paul Vann. Vann seemed so far ahead of the curve that I am not sure we ever caught up to where he was. The thing is, Vann had an amazingly "colorful" career. I am surprised he wasn't booted from the service long before Vietnam. One wonders if his indiscretions impacted his influence in Washington. Or if some of what is reported is apocraphyl.

 

[UncleMark]

That was a critic's review of Burns' Vietnam. I find that review amazingly accurate.

I've been watching, but am less inclined to the longer I watch. The very early history they outlined in the first couple episodes fleshed out what I knew of the time period, but once you get into the later 60s I was paying close attention, and have read up on how the war was dragged out by LBJ and Nixon/Kissinger. I'm nearly 63 years old, and got lucky -- I had a low draft number, but Nixon ended the draft shortly before my 19th birthday.

But back to the quote above, yes, it's depressing. Since it's not going to add much to my knowledge base, I very well may not watch much more. I've had to make a concerted effort to not dwell on too much negative shit (which has been difficult since November) for my own mental and physical well-being. Watching this won't help.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

"For America"

As if I really didn't understand
That I was just another part of their plan
I went off looking for the promise
Believing in the Motherland
And from the comfort of a dreamer's bed
And the safety of my own head
I went on speaking of the future
While other people fought and bled
The kid I was when I first left home
Was looking for his freedom and a life of his own
But the freedom that he found wasn't quite as sweet
When the truth was known
I have prayed for America
I was made for America
It's in my blood and in my bones
By the dawn's early light
By all I know is right
We're going to reap what we have sown

As if freedom was a question of might
As if loyalty was black and white
You hear people say it all the time-
"My country wrong or right"
I want to know what that's got to do
With what it takes to find out what's true
With everyone from the President on down
Trying to keep it from you

The thing I wonder about the Dads and Moms
Who send their sons to the Vietnams
Will they really think their way of life
Has been protected as the next war comes?
I have prayed for America
I was made for America
Her shining dream plays in my mind
By the rockets red glare
A generation's blank stare
We better wake her up this time

The kid I was when I first left home
Was looking for his freedom and a life of his own
But the freedom that he found wasn't quite as sweet
When the truth was known
I have prayed for America
I was made for America
I can't let go till she comes around
Until the land of the free
Is awake and can see
And until her conscience has been found


"For America" Jackson Browne

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

That was a critic's review of Burns' Vietnam. I find that review amazingly accurate. Of course, even not being his best work it is still some of the best television ever.

Episode 1 was so frustrating. The number of times Vietnam could have been stopped long before any serious thought of American involvement was amazing. Ho of that era had no political belief, he just wanted independence. But we only think in dualities, either Ho was pro-American or Marxist. If he was pro-American than he should want the US helping him run his country. The pity.

Episode 2 pretty much was the Karl Rove was right tour, JFK was a neo-con. The times he admits the war cannot be won but we have to stay the course is quite damming of his legacy. Several friends have refused to drop the Kennedy banner, suggesting he would have withdrawn after re-election. I do not believe that, there is always another election. Maybe he does not "surge", to steal a modern concept, like LBJ. But I think there is no way he risks Democratic votes.

Unless, and there is an unless, RFK had more sway than i thought. RFK was farther removed from daddy Joseph's influence of building a legacy. RFK seemed, in just a little reading, more inclined to put right ahead of politics.

Beyond JFK were the military men that seemed to be on the ball. Men who knew the leadership of South Vietnam was not supported, who knew the consequences of killing "suspected" guerrillas. I will admit, that is the Vietnam legacy I have been taught, and having men on the ground in 1962 saying it just confirms my bias that way.

One of the books on the Korean War spoke of American difficulties in finding allies in the Cold War. We typically looked for someone who had some power that we could work with, and pushed them the rest of the way to the top. It did not matter so much if they held a similar world view. The Soviets went deep and found true believers, then bumped them to the top. They tended to share the same world view.

Our system clearly had failings, as we see from South Vietnam. We were not aligned with leaders concerned about "The people". When one side believes in a cause, and the other in graft, it is hard for the other to win. North Vietnamese were willing to fight to the last man, South Vietnamese were willing to fight to the last American dollar.

The early (pre-1963) dispositive US decisions were made in the shadow of the deaths of millions ordered by Stalin (in USSR and Eastern Europe) and Mao, on the generational heel of WWI carnage, all observed by the WWII vets in our government, and in the direct context of "red" support for North Korea and Ho.

There was no real possibility Truman and Ike and JFK would NOT see Vietnam as just another "war of national liberation" the Soviets and Chinese SAID they'd use to oppose us, and a step in their post-WWII attempts to spread their word. And no real possibility China and the USSR would see Ho as anything but a puppet in that same Cold War game.

Note - same guy who gave us the popular "military-industrial complex" meme effectively used "the domino theory" to close the last door out.

Ike's refusal to ratchet up support for Diem because of lack of Congressional and European support was the right call. His 180 decision to then support Diem as "the only real option to prevent dominos" sealed the road to escalation we then saw, and deserved a little more discussion. Maybe they will return to it in later shows, but I doubt it.

But ... Ho was not really pro-US. He was pro "I should run a united Vietnam through any means necessary." Same as Diem. Power addicted. Willing to order and allow Murder just like Stalin, Mao and Diem. "Ends justify the means."

Once you dance with the devil, it takes years to fix. Sometimes 40. Sometimes 400.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The early (pre-1963) dispositive US decisions were made in the shadow of the deaths of millions ordered by Stalin (in USSR and Eastern Europe) and Mao, on the generational heel of WWI carnage, all observed by the WWII vets in our government, and in the direct context of "red" support for North Korea and Ho.

There was no real possibility Truman and Ike and JFK would NOT see Vietnam as just another "war of national liberation" the Soviets and Chinese SAID they'd use to oppose us, and a step in their post-WWII attempts to spread their word. And no real possibility China and the USSR would see Ho as anything but a puppet in that same Cold War game.

Note - same guy who gave us the popular "military-industrial complex" meme effectively used "the domino theory" to close the last door out.

Ike's refusal to ratchet up support for Diem because of lack of Congressional and European support was the right call. His 180 decision to then support Diem as "the only real option to prevent dominos" sealed the road to escalation we then saw, and deserved a little more discussion. Maybe they will return to it in later shows, but I doubt it.

But ... Ho was not really pro-US. He was pro "I should run a united Vietnam through any means necessary." Same as Diem. Power addicted. Willing to order and allow Murder just like Stalin, Mao and Diem. "Ends justify the means."

Once you dance with the devil, it takes years to fix. Sometimes 40. Sometimes 400.

There was a time in American history that we were anti-colonialism. One could say we owe our existence to that idea.

But we morphed over time, became colonial rulers ourselves. We automatically assumed anti-colonialism was pro communism. If they want the French gone, they must be communist. This us the mistake Britain made with us, just because we wanted the Brits out did not mean we wanted the French in.

There was a big difference between Ho and Diem. Diem's first policy was to make Diem and associates wealthy and powerful. Step 2 was independence. As was covered, Ho was never wealthy and lost almost all his power. The Soviets did not trust him, left him as a figurehead and put the real power in someone else. Our inability to find true believers and not wealth seekers still haunts us today (Afghanistan).

Once Presidents conclude a war is unwinnable, I think they have a duty to conclude the war in the most favorable terms possible. No one did that, until it was far too late.

For anyone interested in gaming, a CIA analyst has a series of counterinsurgency games out. They are all a headache in a box. Here is an article. There is a pointed conversation in that article between the US and the Afghan player in A Distant Plain on Afghanistan. I have had that exact same conversation in Fire in the Lake on Vietnam. I was in one of four simultaneous games of Labyrinth, on the Great War on Terror, where all 8 players simultaneously agreed they had no chance to win. The whole series is mind-blowing. But my one real world takeaway has been that the side that trusts each other more will produce the winner. (Labyrinth is only 2 player, the others are 4).

 

[Noodle]

I'm curious as to why people think that this show is not as good as others from Ken Burns; and I mean in terms of production quality, etc., rather than the subject matter. Do you think that, while Burns hit it out of the park in some previous efforts, he could have done better on this one?

So far I've watched 1.5 episodes, and I think Burns et al. did a great job. Do I think it's his best? No. But I have a very hard time determining how much of my opinion is merely a reflection of the subject matter vs. something to do with the production itself. I also wonder if the fact that the show makes extensive use of actual contemporary video might conflict with Burns' style.

Look at it this way--I loved the movie Miracle on Ice, but it would take a lot of effort to screw that up. On the other hand, experts could universally agree that the latest Metropolitan Opera production of The Barber of Seville is the greatest operatic performance in the history of mankind. But I'm still going to opt for the Bugs Bunny version if given a choice.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

But I'm still going to opt for the Bugs Bunny version if given a choice.

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar. Rabbit of Seville may be America's greatest contribution to culture. Chuck Jones was a great director.

The bigger point, this may be his best work. I honestly do not know how to fairly compare. Civil War was so new, so different, that it stood so far beyond anything done to that point. Vietnam lacks that advantage. I do not know how to judge it independently. From that, I will say the raw emotional power is more since the people involved are there talking (or their families in cases like Private Denton). For me that raw power harms the narrative ever so slightly.

I think the music Ashoken Farewell unified the Civil War like a sauce unifying a meal. But last night entered my music, we now have Simon and Garfunkel as part of Vietnam's soundtrack and I think that helped my enjoyment (if one can use that word on a punch to the gut).

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar. Rabbit of Seville may be America's greatest contribution to culture. Chuck Jones was a great director.

The bigger point, this may be his best work. I honestly do not know how to fairly compare. Civil War was so new, so different, that it stood so far beyond anything done to that point. Vietnam lacks that advantage. I do not know how to judge it independently. From that, I will say the raw emotional power is more since the people involved are there talking (or their families in cases like Private Denton). For me that raw power harms the narrative ever so slightly.

I think the music Ashoken Farewell unified the Civil War like a sauce unifying a meal. But last night entered my music, we now have Simon and Garfunkel as part of Vietnam's soundtrack and I think that helped my enjoyment (if one can use that word on a punch to the gut).

I'm not POSITIVE yet, but if I had to answer today, I'd say that in putting the Civil War series together, the facts drove the opinions.

Here, so far, it "feels like" they maybe had certain opinions in advance and selected some facts to support them. They "feel" "critical" of the facts that drove the decisions to stay and fight, which is easy to do in hindsight.

My claimed reason for that is "we" did not live through the Civil War. Our opinions necessarily are driven by the facts presented. But we (some of us) DID live through the Vietnam era, and so we come to the material with impressions, opinions, etc. already formed.

I can't separate my life events from what I see in the show, and it colors how I perceive the show.
I had 2 cousins sent to Nam in the Navy.
My dad taught kids from Decatur County and Spencer County that went.
I interacted with vets when they came back - had teachers that served there.
When my dad moved to teaching in college, I observed and interacted with draft dodgers, guys with deferments, vets (both pro and against the war).
At the same time, we had another war in our life - a guy from the Igbo tribe in Nigeria who went to the college where dad taught lived with us for a while because of the Biafran attempt to secede from Nigeria.
AND at the same time, we had the tail end of the Civil Rights movement going on - with Title VII and the Voting Rights Act and the "with all deliberate speed" implementation of integrated schools - all going on at the same time.

And Apollo.

What a wild time to be alive.

And when I see a vet, and I re-realize that all I had to do was watch, while they had to hump through rice paddies and jungle, I feel ashamed, and I want to defend them for going and doing what a bunch of pricks back home said they shouldn't be doing. It is THE reason I have always rejected the "we hate the war but support the troops" meme as a damaging position. You CANNOT tell a solider "we support YOU but all that killing we had you do should not have occurred." They carried the weapons. They did what they were asked. If you say "it should not have happened," you are telling them that the worst things they ever did not justified, and then we wonder why there is PTSD and emotional trauma?

(See how any Vietnam discussion goes off the rails? It is still raw for ME, and I was just a bystander.)

Its hard to watch.
But I will.
I owe it to the dead and the vets.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

There was a time in American history that we were anti-colonialism. One could say we owe our existence to that idea.

But we morphed over time, became colonial rulers ourselves. We automatically assumed anti-colonialism was pro communism. If they want the French gone, they must be communist. This us the mistake Britain made with us, just because we wanted the Brits out did not mean we wanted the French in.

There was a big difference between Ho and Diem. Diem's first policy was to make Diem and associates wealthy and powerful. Step 2 was independence. As was covered, Ho was never wealthy and lost almost all his power. The Soviets did not trust him, left him as a figurehead and put the real power in someone else. Our inability to find true believers and not wealth seekers still haunts us today (Afghanistan).

Once Presidents conclude a war is unwinnable, I think they have a duty to conclude the war in the most favorable terms possible. No one did that, until it was far too late.

For anyone interested in gaming, a CIA analyst has a series of counterinsurgency games out. They are all a headache in a box. Here is an article. There is a pointed conversation in that article between the US and the Afghan player in A Distant Plain on Afghanistan. I have had that exact same conversation in Fire in the Lake on Vietnam. I was in one of four simultaneous games of Labyrinth, on the Great War on Terror, where all 8 players simultaneously agreed they had no chance to win. The whole series is mind-blowing. But my one real world takeaway has been that the side that trusts each other more will produce the winner. (Labyrinth is only 2 player, the others are 4).

I think "colonial rulers" is the wrong term to apply to the US - at least if you are trying to compare us to the British and French.

A point they brushed over pretty quick was that sumbitch DeGaulle telling us "if the US opposes our return to colonial rule, we may have to align with Stalin." We handled DeGaulle with "kid gloves" way too much - both during WWII and after. That kind of threat fed the later "domino" theory thinking. I'd have called his bluff, and seen if the French hung his ass out to dry.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

You CANNOT tell a solider "we support YOU but all that killing we had you do should not have occurred." They carried the weapons. They did what they were asked. If you say "it should not have happened," you are telling them that the worst things they ever did not justified, and then we wonder why there is PTSD and emotional trauma?

And here is where the problem lies, we see military people in the series admit we are killing non-combatants and that those killings drive more people into the VC.

This is the crux of guerrilla warfare. The Brits never figured out how to tell a loyalist from a patriot, we never figured out how to tell a VC from a farmer.

I recall, of all people, Jesse Ventura commenting on us finding weapons in a Mosque and our horror. He said if America were occupied by an enemy he damn sure would hide weapons in a church.

Where I agree with you is I cannot blame the kid over there trying to sort out who wishes him well or ill. That soldier was put into that position by incompetent fools, and I sure as hell can blame Maxwell Taylor, LBJ, McNamara, JFK, et al.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I think "colonial rulers" is the wrong term to apply to the US - at least if you are trying to compare us to the British and French.

A point they brushed over pretty quick was that sumbitch DeGaulle telling us "if the US opposes our return to colonial rule, we may have to align with Stalin." We handled DeGaulle with "kid gloves" way too much - both during WWII and after. That kind of threat fed the later "domino" theory thinking. I'd have called his bluff, and seen if the French hung his ass out to dry.

Every American ETO commander in WW2 was a francophile. They loved the French, resented the Brits. And every last one of them hated DeGaulle. DeGaulle bluffed and threatened across North Africa, Italy, and France. How our political leaders did not learn to tell him to sit down or we would invite the Germans back is amazing.

 

[PurdueTiger]

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar. Rabbit of Seville may be America's greatest contribution to culture. Chuck Jones was a great director.

The bigger point, this may be his best work. I honestly do not know how to fairly compare. Civil War was so new, so different, that it stood so far beyond anything done to that point. Vietnam lacks that advantage. I do not know how to judge it independently. From that, I will say the raw emotional power is more since the people involved are there talking (or their families in cases like Private Denton). For me that raw power harms the narrative ever so slightly.

I think the music Ashoken Farewell unified the Civil War like a sauce unifying a meal. But last night entered my music, we now have Simon and Garfunkel as part of Vietnam's soundtrack and I think that helped my enjoyment (if one can use that word on a punch to the gut).

The Three Little Bops is an unbeatable cartoon.

 

[UncleMark]

The bigger point, this may be his best work. I honestly do not know how to fairly compare. Civil War was so new, so different, that it stood so far beyond anything done to that point. Vietnam lacks that advantage.

Civil War and Brooklyn Bridge consisted almost exclusively of black and white stills and narration. No video or color, except for the occasional talking head. With Baseball, that changed, and for me it was jarring. Don't ask me why, but to me Civil War and Brooklyn Bridge were more "elegant" or "refined", for lack of better terms. For whatever reason, in comparison to those two, the later works with video and color aren't nearly as unique.

Additionally, a lot of documentarians have adopted Burns' style, so his more recent offerings don't stand out stylistically as they once did.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The Three Little Bops is an unbeatable cartoon.

That is excellent, but I have to stick with Bugs. But my name may indicate a bias toward Bugs.