New Coach Choices

go_iu

Junior
Feb 22, 2004
1,735
859
113
Pearl 1st choice, then Alford. All in. 3rd choice keep Lil Archie m
Matta and Alford are the safe choices, Fife or Lewis would be a gamble, but better than AM. I kind of think we need a safe choice and groom our next gamble in house
 

Champs1976

Recruit
May 18, 2020
89
104
33
I considered the transfer rule actually helping with a rebuild. But I have a sense that nearly every player would leave and I don't have confidence that someone could build anything close to a competitive roster by successfully finding 13 new players. I'm skeptical that a new coach could land 7 or 8 quality transfers.

Archie is a damn good coach. Ask the other guys on the lists presented here of "people we should hire". Then ask them if they feel the same way about Tom Crean. That doesn't mean Archie is a great fit or the right guy for this job. I'm not making that assertion. If he's fired this season, he doesn't have much of a defense (unless things take a drastic turn for the better in the coming weeks). If things continue their current course, you won't hear me on here complaining that he was treated unjustly. Recruiting quality players and getting them to give great effort consistently is part of the job. My statement about Archie being a damn good coach is more about his knowledge of the game and ability to compete against better talent. Ask Tom Izzo about that. But a coach at Indiana shouldn't be competing against superior talent - he should be successful at recruiting equal or superior talent. I'm not seeing that any more than the rest of you.

I do think it's a little disingenuos for some here to be crowing about how IU should have hired Holtmann. Hindsight is a nice luxury that Fred Glass didn't have. There was nothing in Holtmann's resume vs. Archie's to suggest that he was a better hire. He inherited a really good situation at Butler and did very well. Archie built an outstanding program at Dayton. Both looked like "cant-miss" hires and choosing one over the other wasn't obvious to anybody. Any one who says that is a liar, or a narcissist like IGW (who wouldn't admit he was wrong about anything under any circumstance. If he mistakenly sat a Porterhouse steak on top of a pile of dog shit he'd swear it was the world's best marinade and nobody else but him was smart enough to recognize it). The fact that it hasn't worked out is not the fault of the folks who hired him. There was nothing to suggest they made a bad decision at the time.

As for firing him next year instead of this, I stated my thinking in an earlier thread and I do think that yes, $15 million is an unjustifiable buyout when you face the financial restrainst Covid has crated. I also believe in honoring a contract, unless the employee has given you just cause to terminate beyond a lack of success in the WL column. I don't have much optimism that next year is going to be some kind of "breakthrough" year but I do think we'll be much better on experience alone. And I think TJD returns simply because he has to know his game isn't adequate for the NBA and won't be by next fall. I'm inclined to think we won't be noticeably worse off in two years if we wait to make the move after next year rather than this. And we save $9 million - more if Archie willingly resigns after year five. If there's a Brad Stevens out there in April 2021 that won't be there in April 2022, I would change my mind. Either way, I won't make the claim that Archie wasn't given a fair shot. I'm just not excited at the prospect of a firing followed by mass player defections and a wiped-out recruiting year that put us where we were when Crean got here or even when Archie got here. I'd like to avoid that scenario at all costs.
TJD doesn't stay unless Archie presents him with a viable development plan that gets him better positioned to play in the NBA, like someone to work with him on developing a jump shot that's consistent and a strength plan to put bulk on him. If I'm TJD, why not go to the developmental league and spend full time working on my game?
 

Lucy01

All-American
Gold Member
Sep 16, 2014
8,877
3,675
113
TJD doesn't stay unless Archie presents him with a viable development plan that gets him better positioned to play in the NBA, like someone to work with him on developing a jump shot that's consistent and a strength plan to put bulk on him. If I'm TJD, why not go to the developmental league and spend full time working on my game?
Dumb
 

Harpo Marxist

Hall of Famer
Sep 11, 2002
10,402
889
113
I considered the transfer rule actually helping with a rebuild. But I have a sense that nearly every player would leave and I don't have confidence that someone could build anything close to a competitive roster by successfully finding 13 new players. I'm skeptical that a new coach could land 7 or 8 quality transfers.

Archie is a damn good coach. Ask the other guys on the lists presented here of "people we should hire". Then ask them if they feel the same way about Tom Crean. That doesn't mean Archie is a great fit or the right guy for this job. I'm not making that assertion. If he's fired this season, he doesn't have much of a defense (unless things take a drastic turn for the better in the coming weeks). If things continue their current course, you won't hear me on here complaining that he was treated unjustly. Recruiting quality players and getting them to give great effort consistently is part of the job. My statement about Archie being a damn good coach is more about his knowledge of the game and ability to compete against better talent. Ask Tom Izzo about that. But a coach at Indiana shouldn't be competing against superior talent - he should be successful at recruiting equal or superior talent. I'm not seeing that any more than the rest of you.

I do think it's a little disingenuos for some here to be crowing about how IU should have hired Holtmann. Hindsight is a nice luxury that Fred Glass didn't have. There was nothing in Holtmann's resume vs. Archie's to suggest that he was a better hire. He inherited a really good situation at Butler and did very well. Archie built an outstanding program at Dayton. Both looked like "cant-miss" hires and choosing one over the other wasn't obvious to anybody. Any one who says that is a liar, or a narcissist like IGW (who wouldn't admit he was wrong about anything under any circumstance. If he mistakenly sat a Porterhouse steak on top of a pile of dog shit he'd swear it was the world's best marinade and nobody else but him was smart enough to recognize it). The fact that it hasn't worked out is not the fault of the folks who hired him. There was nothing to suggest they made a bad decision at the time.

As for firing him next year instead of this, I stated my thinking in an earlier thread and I do think that yes, $15 million is an unjustifiable buyout when you face the financial restrainst Covid has crated. I also believe in honoring a contract, unless the employee has given you just cause to terminate beyond a lack of success in the WL column. I don't have much optimism that next year is going to be some kind of "breakthrough" year but I do think we'll be much better on experience alone. And I think TJD returns simply because he has to know his game isn't adequate for the NBA and won't be by next fall. I'm inclined to think we won't be noticeably worse off in two years if we wait to make the move after next year rather than this. And we save $9 million - more if Archie willingly resigns after year five. If there's a Brad Stevens out there in April 2021 that won't be there in April 2022, I would change my mind. Either way, I won't make the claim that Archie wasn't given a fair shot. I'm just not excited at the prospect of a firing followed by mass player defections and a wiped-out recruiting year that put us where we were when Crean got here or even when Archie got here. I'd like to avoid that scenario at all costs.
Honoring contracts is noble and just. However, throw out Dakich.....and IU has fired the last four coaches its had...and that includes RMK, for a variety of reasons. If a breakout candidate materializes.. timing becomes a critical factor...then fire him and get your guy.
 

i'vegotwinners

Hall of Famer
Dec 1, 2006
10,604
3,079
113
I considered the transfer rule actually helping with a rebuild. But I have a sense that nearly every player would leave and I don't have confidence that someone could build anything close to a competitive roster by successfully finding 13 new players. I'm skeptical that a new coach could land 7 or 8 quality transfers.

Archie is a damn good coach. Ask the other guys on the lists presented here of "people we should hire". Then ask them if they feel the same way about Tom Crean. That doesn't mean Archie is a great fit or the right guy for this job. I'm not making that assertion. If he's fired this season, he doesn't have much of a defense (unless things take a drastic turn for the better in the coming weeks). If things continue their current course, you won't hear me on here complaining that he was treated unjustly. Recruiting quality players and getting them to give great effort consistently is part of the job. My statement about Archie being a damn good coach is more about his knowledge of the game and ability to compete against better talent. Ask Tom Izzo about that. But a coach at Indiana shouldn't be competing against superior talent - he should be successful at recruiting equal or superior talent. I'm not seeing that any more than the rest of you.

I do think it's a little disingenuos for some here to be crowing about how IU should have hired Holtmann. Hindsight is a nice luxury that Fred Glass didn't have. There was nothing in Holtmann's resume vs. Archie's to suggest that he was a better hire. He inherited a really good situation at Butler and did very well. Archie built an outstanding program at Dayton. Both looked like "cant-miss" hires and choosing one over the other wasn't obvious to anybody. Any one who says that is a liar, or a narcissist like IGW (who wouldn't admit he was wrong about anything under any circumstance. If he mistakenly sat a Porterhouse steak on top of a pile of dog shit he'd swear it was the world's best marinade and nobody else but him was smart enough to recognize it). The fact that it hasn't worked out is not the fault of the folks who hired him. There was nothing to suggest they made a bad decision at the time.

As for firing him next year instead of this, I stated my thinking in an earlier thread and I do think that yes, $15 million is an unjustifiable buyout when you face the financial restrainst Covid has crated. I also believe in honoring a contract, unless the employee has given you just cause to terminate beyond a lack of success in the WL column. I don't have much optimism that next year is going to be some kind of "breakthrough" year but I do think we'll be much better on experience alone. And I think TJD returns simply because he has to know his game isn't adequate for the NBA and won't be by next fall. I'm inclined to think we won't be noticeably worse off in two years if we wait to make the move after next year rather than this. And we save $9 million - more if Archie willingly resigns after year five. If there's a Brad Stevens out there in April 2021 that won't be there in April 2022, I would change my mind. Either way, I won't make the claim that Archie wasn't given a fair shot. I'm just not excited at the prospect of a firing followed by mass player defections and a wiped-out recruiting year that put us where we were when Crean got here or even when Archie got here. I'd like to avoid that scenario at all costs.
you have a nice day too.
 

Indyhorn

Senior
Gold Member
Dec 14, 2004
2,848
109
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I think IU will need to gamble on a young coach to grow into the job. Dane Fife is my pick. He loves the school, and has learned from a great coach.
 

DHoosier

Senior
May 22, 2002
2,499
73
48
I agree for Fife. He learned from the best and knows the game. Would be a good recruiter and wouldn’t stand for sloppy play. I’m sure the fans would support him.
 
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go_iu

Junior
Feb 22, 2004
1,735
859
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As painful as it might be, the smart money is to give Archie one more year. Firing him now will trash the program to the same degree we saw when Sampson was fired and Crean hired. Especially with the immediate transfer policy the NCAA has embraced. We might very well be better off in the long run but we will likely be completely noncompetitive for two years. Use next year to do a thorough search if Archie struggles again (likely) and re-evaluate if an experienced team markedly improves and it looks like IU and Archie have turned a corner (not highly likely but not out of the realm of possibility). It's also worth mentioning that Archie is a pretty honorable guy. I think if next year is not a huge jump over the first four it's highly likely that he resigns. That makes it a smoother and quicker transition, increases the likelihood of retaining players, and doesn't disrupt recruiting to the same extent. In my mind, that option puts us no further behind than the abrupt canning of a coach at the end of this season.

As for Brad Stevens, I wouldn't hold my breath that a blank check will motivate him. He doesn't operate that way. He doesn't care about ludicrous money and his ego doesn't need him to be the highest paid coach. He's made NBA money for a few years now and he's a shrewd money manager who doesn't live a lavish lifestyle. More importantly, he hates recruiting with a fiery passion. I know because I heard him say it personally. After his first year in Boston, I was with a friend who lives next to Butler's campus and is a Butler grad and longtime booster. We were walking my buddy's dog on campus and ran into Brad who was on a jog. He stopped to chat and my friend asked him about his first year. His exact words were that he was sorry their season ended so soon ( I don't think they made the playoffs or maybe they got swept the first round) but that he was thrilled that for the first time in a long time he wouldn't be spending his summer chasing 18-year-old kids around the country and sitting through AAU tournaments all summer.

His outlook might have changed after a few years of the NBA travel grind and dealing with player egos, but I'd take him at his word if he said from the get-go he had no interest. My hope would be that Beard could be lured by the prospect of easier recruiting and a higher profile at IU than TT. He might be of the mind that he could have a perennial power here with less effort attracting players. Then again, maybe not. I also have no idea what the terms of his contract might be - including the possible buyout. I think the Alabama coach (former Buffalo guy) is intriguing as well.

I'm disappointed as hell because I think Archie is a damn good coach and a good man. I still think he was the right hire at the time without the benefit of hindsight. Unfortunately, he can't seem to attract top-flight talent or get consistent effort out of the guys he has. If I was running things, I'd still give him one more year to be certain given the expense and disruption of making the change this year.
Agree mostly, I'm not advocating for firing him this year at all, but I disagree that we should try to cling to some degree of mediocrity beyond next year. Doesn't make any sense as nobody could make us any appreciably better for next year at this point. This roster needs to graduate and/or what's left be purged by the right coach. I'd rather see a thorough search this time and not pay AM to sit on his couch next year and do Zoom game play by play for peanuts while we're basically still paying his salary
 

Aloha Hoosier

Hall of Famer
Aug 30, 2001
28,671
9,769
113
I considered the transfer rule actually helping with a rebuild. But I have a sense that nearly every player would leave and I don't have confidence that someone could build anything close to a competitive roster by successfully finding 13 new players. I'm skeptical that a new coach could land 7 or 8 quality transfers.

Archie is a damn good coach. Ask the other guys on the lists presented here of "people we should hire". Then ask them if they feel the same way about Tom Crean. That doesn't mean Archie is a great fit or the right guy for this job. I'm not making that assertion. If he's fired this season, he doesn't have much of a defense (unless things take a drastic turn for the better in the coming weeks). If things continue their current course, you won't hear me on here complaining that he was treated unjustly. Recruiting quality players and getting them to give great effort consistently is part of the job. My statement about Archie being a damn good coach is more about his knowledge of the game and ability to compete against better talent. Ask Tom Izzo about that. But a coach at Indiana shouldn't be competing against superior talent - he should be successful at recruiting equal or superior talent. I'm not seeing that any more than the rest of you.

I do think it's a little disingenuos for some here to be crowing about how IU should have hired Holtmann. Hindsight is a nice luxury that Fred Glass didn't have. There was nothing in Holtmann's resume vs. Archie's to suggest that he was a better hire. He inherited a really good situation at Butler and did very well. Archie built an outstanding program at Dayton. Both looked like "cant-miss" hires and choosing one over the other wasn't obvious to anybody. Any one who says that is a liar, or a narcissist like IGW (who wouldn't admit he was wrong about anything under any circumstance. If he mistakenly sat a Porterhouse steak on top of a pile of dog shit he'd swear it was the world's best marinade and nobody else but him was smart enough to recognize it). The fact that it hasn't worked out is not the fault of the folks who hired him. There was nothing to suggest they made a bad decision at the time.

As for firing him next year instead of this, I stated my thinking in an earlier thread and I do think that yes, $15 million is an unjustifiable buyout when you face the financial restrainst Covid has crated. I also believe in honoring a contract, unless the employee has given you just cause to terminate beyond a lack of success in the WL column. I don't have much optimism that next year is going to be some kind of "breakthrough" year but I do think we'll be much better on experience alone. And I think TJD returns simply because he has to know his game isn't adequate for the NBA and won't be by next fall. I'm inclined to think we won't be noticeably worse off in two years if we wait to make the move after next year rather than this. And we save $9 million - more if Archie willingly resigns after year five. If there's a Brad Stevens out there in April 2021 that won't be there in April 2022, I would change my mind. Either way, I won't make the claim that Archie wasn't given a fair shot. I'm just not excited at the prospect of a firing followed by mass player defections and a wiped-out recruiting year that put us where we were when Crean got here or even when Archie got here. I'd like to avoid that scenario at all costs.
You just saved me a lot of typing time. I agree with pretty much all of what you posted here. Thanks.
 
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Al Bino

All-Big Ten
Dec 18, 2001
4,739
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Whoever we hire, the first order of business has to be a radical culture change. I know I sound like a broken record on that. But if we hire a new coach and resist a change in culture — or worse, hire a coach specifically to leave the cultural status quo untouched — we’ll continue getting the bad results we’ve been getting.

It’s easy to say we needed a new culture in football. We’ve historically never been a very good football program. Basketball is a harder nut to crack — because many still associate that culture with the success of the Knight years. They’re gone - and they aren’t coming back.
Good grief, not this same old BS time after time after TIME.

I know it is late but for God's sake make a New Year's resolution to never type "culture change" again and give the rest of us a GREAT gift in 2021.
 

Birnk403

All-Big Ten
Nov 17, 2019
4,189
2,734
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Good grief, not this same old BS time after time after TIME.

I know it is late but for God's sake make a New Year's resolution to never type "culture change" again and give the rest of us a GREAT gift in 2021.
He mentions it often because people like you struggle to comprehend how important it is when building and sustaining a program. You and others have settled for lower expectations for the program. A few of us haven’t.
 
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crazed_hoosier2

Hall of Famer
Mar 28, 2011
11,481
3,575
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Good grief, not this same old BS time after time after TIME.

I know it is late but for God's sake make a New Year's resolution to never type "culture change" again and give the rest of us a GREAT gift in 2021.
No sir. You’ve asked me before and I’ve refused before. I believe this — strongly. And that’s why I keep bringing it up. If we don’t address that aspect of our decline, we won’t escape it.

If my repeating this is annoying to you, there’s an ignore feature. But you aren’t going to get me to stop saying it. There are a lot of people who need to hear it.
 

Upset Alert

Freshman
Jan 10, 2018
679
403
63
Honoring contracts is noble and just. However, throw out Dakich.....and IU has fired the last four coaches its had...and that includes RMK, for a variety of reasons. If a breakout candidate materializes.. timing becomes a critical factor...then fire him and get your guy.
Not totally true. Mike Davis did not get fired. I can't believe how many fans still repeat this error.
 

Al Bino

All-Big Ten
Dec 18, 2001
4,739
2,296
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No sir. You’ve asked me before and I’ve refused before. I believe this — strongly. And that’s why I keep bringing it up. If we don’t address that aspect of our decline, we won’t escape it.

If my repeating this is annoying to you, there’s an ignore feature. But you aren’t going to get me to stop saying it. There are a lot of people who need to hear it.
And yet, all the times I have read your diatribe, IIRC, not once have you laid out a plan to instill what you believe is the "right culture" at IU.

BS, Absolute Total BS.
 
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Frosty83

Senior
Oct 29, 2011
2,781
669
113
Forgot this nonsense of going away from an IU man. Hire all of these guys back :)

Michael Lewis (UCLA assistant), AJ Guyton (Loyola assistant), Calbert Cheaney (Atlanta Hawks assistant)

You will bring back the fans and bring in some outstanding recruits.

Other Assistants:
Jeff Newton, Jordan Hulls, Christian Watford, Cody Zeller
 
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TrojanFan004

Sophomore
Apr 23, 2020
729
475
63
Forgot this nonsense of going away from an IU man. Hire all of these guys back :)

Michael Lewis (UCLA assistant), AJ Guyton (Loyola assistant), Calbert Cheaney (Atlanta Hawks assistant)

You will bring back the fans and bring in some outstanding recruits.

Other Assistants:
Jeff Newton, Jordan Hulls, Christian Watford, Cody Zeller
I’m not sure the majority of the fanbase would be excited about that.
 

mushroomgod_1

All-Big Ten
Apr 9, 2012
4,722
4,277
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After reading about several possible candidates suggested on here, it appears Indiana should choose the new coach from the following list:

Brad Stevens
Mark Few
Billy Donovan
Chris Beard
Rick Pitino
Steve Alford
Rick Barnes

All excellent choices IMO (Pitino is a bit sketchy though but who really cares) and all would likely jump at the chance to come to Btown. It's like what @Courtsensetwo always says: who in their right mind wouldn't jump at the chance to come to the most picturesque campus in the country? A place where big dreams come to fruition and magic fills the air.

Personally, I think we should sign Mark Few or Beard...hell maybe even Phil Jackson. As my man Hoss @Cavanagh said, "time to start a new streak!"
Keep the faith people

-The Buford

Would like to see more discussion about Nate Oats, HC at Alabama.

Watched a couple of you tube videos of him......very laid-back guy, does not appear as tightly wound as Archie. Looks like a more approachable, guy-next-door type.
 

B_Town_Buford

Redshirt
Dec 23, 2020
108
220
43
Would like to see more discussion about Nate Oats, HC at Alabama.

Watched a couple of you tube videos of him......very laid-back guy, does not appear as tightly wound as Archie. Looks like a more approachable, guy-next-door type.
Yes and he's got them boys at Bama playing extremely well these days.
 
Jan 14, 2005
2,422
1,405
113
Would like to see more discussion about Nate Oats, HC at Alabama.

Watched a couple of you tube videos of him......very laid-back guy, does not appear as tightly wound as Archie. Looks like a more approachable, guy-next-door type.
He is the only guy I'd say we have a realistic shot at right now that I would also trade for Miller. Oats has a buyout of 4 million after this season, and if they extend him, that will presumably go up. COVID might put a damper on the motivation to extend, I dunno. He makes about 1.6 mil a year. We can obviously offer a substantial raise.

He is Crean on speed on offense. We would turn it over more per game than some would prefer. But his D, at Alabama in year two (and also during his best year at Buffalo) was better than all but 1 Crean season, and better than every year of Miller at IU.

If this season implodes, I pull the trigger. There are so many tough games left that there is plenty of opportunity to turn things around if we get hot.
 

TheShadow1087

Junior
Gold Member
May 2, 2009
1,479
324
83
Here's a name to keep an eye on in the future
Craig Smith of Utah State. All he has done is win. Has a win percentage of 77% at Utah State and 67% overall. Young guy who is familiar with the B1G as he was an assistant at Nebraska.

Personally for me I want an IU guy or Chris Beard or Brad Steven's. Unfortunately for us Chris Beard guys his buyout at TT is astronomical.
 

Al Bino

All-Big Ten
Dec 18, 2001
4,739
2,296
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Culture change - see Indiana football.
Which is all due to the head coach. That is what I have said all along but CH2 keeps going on and ON about the "culture" at IU needs to change and I call BS.

The coach needs to change and the new coach needs to instill whatever "culture" he needs to be successful.
 
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DallasHoosier

Junior
Dec 10, 2003
1,462
39
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Only two that are realistic are Pitino and Alford, Barnes and Beard I think are probably comfortable with what they have built and don't want to start over
I’m not so sure about Beard. He may be the one to really focus on. He is from Texas, but Lubbock is a god-awful place. He’s clearly elevated that program beyond belief, but there must be a cap on just how successful he can be in getting kids to come out to west Texas. The Knight reconciliation with IU could prove huge.
 

Indyhorn

Senior
Gold Member
Dec 14, 2004
2,848
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I’m not so sure about Beard. He may be the one to really focus on. He is from Texas, but Lubbock is a god-awful place. He’s clearly elevated that program beyond belief, but there must be a cap on just how successful he can be in getting kids to come out to west Texas. The Knight reconciliation with IU could prove huge.
I think Beard leaves Lubbock for Texas or Kansas or Duke or Kentucky. IU needs to look at coaches that would come now. Start thinking like when we hired Knight in 1972- we are uhm Iowa
 

TheShadow1087

Junior
Gold Member
May 2, 2009
1,479
324
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I think Beard leaves Lubbock for Texas or Kansas or Duke or Kentucky. IU needs to look at coaches that would come now. Start thinking like when we hired Knight in 1972- we are uhm Iowa
Chris would come to Bloomington. The problem is IU couldn't afford the buyout of 19 million to get him away from Texas Tech. Chris has some ties to the Indianapolis area and also his ties to Coach Knight and Pat go a long way. If you want to read a good story on the type of guy Chris is google up stories about his ABA coaching days in South Carolina. The owners of that ABA team were from Indy.
 
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oldcougar77

All-Big Ten
Apr 21, 2004
4,523
5,150
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I think Beard leaves Lubbock for Texas or Kansas or Duke or Kentucky. IU needs to look at coaches that would come now. Start thinking like when we hired Knight in 1972- we are uhm Iowa
You realize the Archie hire looked a lot like the Knight hire. Successful young guys coaching a step or so below the B1G level. No-nonsense, serious basketball guys with reputations as bright up-and-comers with a focus on fundamentals and defense. One turned out to be a home run. The other has so far been a lazy fly ball to shallow left field.

It's a crap shoot unfortunately.