N95 Mask Market

Discussion in 'The Water Cooler' started by twenty02, Apr 2, 2020.

  1. mohoosier

    mohoosier Hall of Famer
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  2. mohoosier

    mohoosier Hall of Famer
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    Blah blah blah blah blah...your such a sad person. Do you constantly do this same bitching around the ones you love? I sure hope not. Jeez.
     
  3. i'vegotwinners

    i'vegotwinners All-American
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  4. sglowrider

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    I am not sad. I am fecking angry -- because my family is in danger because of the incompetence, ignorance and for his political expediency.

    This is what my sister in NYC just wrote to me earlier:

    Well, the situation here in the city is beginning to take its toll on the spirit. But we took a walk in the park on a beautiful spring day yesterday. It's the only time we have some semblance of normalcy. We did walk along Amsterdam Ave a few days ago and like everywhere else, it's dead, a ghost town. In the beginning, it was almost thrilling to have the city quiet down some. Now that it's sinking in, it's just heartbreaking. Reading about the virus, its spread, its toll, is truly disheartening.

    Who knows when this will end, what kind of country we will be left with if and when this is over.

    Its words on a forum to you. But for some of us here, it's personal.

    I live in a country that's relatively safe only because it was managed well with lessons learnt from the SARs pandemic.
    They have followed the publically published plan and communicated to the public on personal responsibility whilst executing the containment plan at full pelt. All the healthcare workers have not been allowed to go on leave since January, working six days a week.
    Everyone knew what happened the last time -- 43% of the SARs victims were healthcare workers and so they stockpiled on PPEs, ventilators etc for a decade now. There are absolutely no shortages.
    You can even look at my early comments on the CDC, what used to be a revered organisation but clearly has been politicised.

    There is a simple quote:

    By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.

    Its very clear to me -- for someone does strategic (and some operational) planning (for startups and product) for a living -- there was ZERO strategic planning. Just fly off the seat of your pants approach to something this serious and deadly.
     
    44 sglowrider, Apr 3, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
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  5. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    The Republican governor of Maryland was complaining about procurement. He said repeatedly he has reached deals for ventilators just to have The supplier call back and say they had a better offer. Is that how you think emergencies should be handled?

    Somehow the ability of the feds to mobilize and win WW2 never gets mentioned by conservatives. I submit that as proof that not only can a generalized system work, it can work to an excellent degree. There was no waiting around on Boeing to decide if it wanted to commit planes, which type, how many, when. We certainly never let Boeing call us back and say they had a better deal from the Germans.
     
  6. baileyiu

    baileyiu All-American
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  7. sglowrider

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    Seriously, I saw a quotation yesterday from a friend for a ventilator that was $45k on Wednesday and $50k on Thursday. All cash transactions. Normal price would be 8-9k
     
  8. Marvin the Martian

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    Elsewhere I have called it war profiteering, which is what it is. And it zaps the morale of the civilian populace quicker than anything.

    I know a couple disciples of Ayn Rand would find it a glorious death to lose out on a ventilator because someone wanted even more money for it. But most of us would not be happy.
     
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  9. Cream&Crimson

    Cream&Crimson All-Big Ten
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    Ok, so they're bidding against just 49 other states then, not 49 states and FEMA. That's a game-changer. /s
     
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  10. Marvin the Martian

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    I guess it does not have to be states. If someone wants to decorate their foyer in ventilators, they might be bidding up NY.
     
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  11. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    I have the solution, let us start the rumor that George Soros is buying millions of dollars of emergency supplies to make Trump look bad. Soon all the Trump supporters will demand the feds take over procurement.
     
  12. Fro

    Fro Hall of Famer
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    This whole thing is a great example why we need a competently ran federal government that isn't isolationist. And also why the free market isn't equipped to handle a crisis situation, particularly in health care. They're going to squeeze every dollar they can and run to the feds for help because it's not profitable for them to be good corporate citizens to have excess capacity for crisis situations or keep rural hospitals open.
     
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  13. sglowrider

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    [H]ealth is not a consumer good, but rather a universal right, and therefore access to health care services cannot be a privilege.

    Health care, especially at the most basic level, is indeed denied in many parts of the world… Access to health care services, treatment and medicines remains a mirage. The poorest are unable to pay and are excluded from hospital services, even the most essential primary care.”
     
  14. twenty02

    twenty02 Hall of Famer
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    The Feds can't do anything right, not sure I'd put any hope there..... even the USNS Comfort is a total joke. ..as they actually refuse to take on COVID patients.

    The 1,000-Bed Comfort Was Supposed to Aid New York. It Has 20 Patients.
    “It’s a joke,” said a top hospital executive, whose facilities are packed with coronavirus patients.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/...action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage
     
  15. Hoosiers Rising

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    My understanding was the hospital ships were supposed to take other medical situations to free up space and resources in the hospitals. I'm not sure you want a highly contagious disease on a ship.
     
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  16. twenty02

    twenty02 Hall of Famer
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    Yes that was the plan.... but it's a stupid plan.
     
  17. Sope Creek

    Sope Creek Hall of Famer
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    Facts is facts, dude. At least he has a basis for the complaints he's registering . . .

    . . . the fact is, the administration has failed the American people, and the American people are now starting to pay the price . . . with some of the best and brightest now putting their lives on the line because of that failure. The loss of life, talent and potential will affect this country for at least a couple of generations . . . .
     
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  18. Sope Creek

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    It's a ship, sure . . . but it's a hospital ship.

    How is being on a hospital ship - a docked hospital ship, not one at sea - all that different from being cooped up in a hospital . . . or a ward/room in a hospital? Seems pretty much the same thing to me . . . .
     
  19. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    I think originally Javits was not to accept coronavirus patients, but that has now changed.

    I am not sure why the Mercy wouldn't accept coronavirus patients unless they are afraid of being called off to WWIII and wouldn't have time to decontaminate.
     
  20. sglowrider

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    Wtf is going on? My sister in SF just asked me to send her boxes of surgical masks. They all fake in Amazon?
     
    60 sglowrider, Apr 3, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  21. Marvin the Martian

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    I see LOTS of them, and most appear real. My wife has sewn the cloth masks that I will use so I'm not looking for them personally.
     
  22. sglowrider

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    Strange. It would take forever to get there.

    The whole global logistics system is really slow at the moment. I had online stuff come down from China faster than Malaysia, 250miles north.

    I will see what I can find for her. Food I understand but masks?
     
  23. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    Wait, after looking closer, most will not arrive until mid-may. So there is a shortage.
     
  24. mcmurtry66

    mcmurtry66 Junior
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    I"m not sure what you're seeing on amazon. everything i see on amazon that looks like a mask that "might" work is "prioritized for hospitals and governmental agencies." the ones that look like better than nothing have shipment dates in late may through june.
     
  25. sglowrider

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    Ok. It might take at least two-three weeks to get to her . Might be worth it then.
     
  26. Marvin the Martian

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    It is like antiseptic wipes. 3 weeks ago I thought about buying a box but they were all like "available April 15". I thought that was stupid, i would easily find some by then. Ha, what an idiot. I really am not the paranoid "wipe down every food container that comes into the house" kind of person, but there might be a need on occasion for a wipe or two.
     
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  27. sglowrider

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    I didn't look. But had assumed she did otherwise why ask someone to get it for her from shops 11,000 miles away.
     
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  28. Hoosiers Rising

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    I assumed it was because the staff was quartered on board. More chance of spreading among the staff and crew? I dont know as I am no expert. This is why I have no desire to go on a cruise.
     
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  29. CO. Hoosier

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    No. The problem the Maryland governor* is having is because of product scarcity, not because of "handling" the emergency. Even if the Feds could seize the entire supply, which would be time consuming, that wouldn't increase the supply. Then there would be an additional layer of allocation and distribution problems which would also likely delay the whole process. Time and speed is of the essence.

    Despite Midway, we spent. year getting our ass kicked in WWII before our mobilization took effect. We don't have a year now. The way we treated those whose real estate we seized to begin the Manhattan Project would never fly today. Especially since there is a cadre of federal judges willing to set aside any Trump order, which he has the authority to issue, because they don't like Trump or his decisions.

    *Why did you include "Republican" and "conservative" in your post? You raise decent points, (which I take issue with) but you degrade your arguments by making them political. This is new for you.
     
  30. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    If he is being outbid for the equipment, it is more than a supply problem. Is EBay an efficient way to respond? Does a willingness to pay more equal the group most in need getting the product? Is it possible that there are billionaires with no sign they have the disease are outbidding states that are desperate? Are lifesaving measures a good commodity to go only to the highest bidder.

    There are theories out there that Democrats are panicking to make Trump look bad. The MD governor saying 1) he is having product yanked from him after reaching a deal because someone else would pay more and 2) being a Republican combine to make it clear this is a real problem and not some anti-Trump hoax.
     
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  31. sglowrider

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    What masks matters:

     
  32. CO. Hoosier

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    We don't know the details of the Maryland transaction. So we don't know what occurred there. I have some inside baseball knowledge of the Colorado transaction and those problems were not a hinderance. The difference maker is not politics. It's experience. Colorado's governor is a far left liberal none of whose positions I agree with. However, his experience includes running a private business. I think that is a huge advantage in these times. I give him pretty high marks for the way he is handling things. Except for some exceptions among Democratic governors, I don't think many Democrats can ever get to a similar place. But of course I'm highly nuanced in my opinions. ;)

    The Maryland governor also shows private business experience, but that is ambiguous, he doesn't appear to have been in charge, and he could have been basically a lobbyist.

    Experience mattes more than politics in these times.
     
  33. mohoosier

    mohoosier Hall of Famer
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    Weeks??? Ok, you’re disqualified
     
  34. Marvin the Martian

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    So the best governor right now are people who have bought thousands of items on Ebay? I still don't get why an Ebay system is the best idea. We don't take five people into an ER after a vehicle crash and have them bid to get first treatment. Triage is based on who needs treatment first. Some states need ventilators, others want ventilators. Shouldn't need outweigh want?
     
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  35. CO. Hoosier

    CO. Hoosier Hall of Famer
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    This is why discussing things with you has become so frustrating.

    Buh bye.
     
  36. Marvin the Martian

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    The governors, multiple governors, are complaining about this. You use that opportunity to slide in your Ayn Rand plug that a businessman would always know the best solution. And that is my fault to point out that fallacy?

    Governors are complaining, multiple governors, they are bidding against each other. So tackle this one question, how is it not war profiteering?
     
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  37. outside shooter

    outside shooter Hall of Famer
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    Governor Cuomo has described this situation literally every day, and the only way you could have missed it is living under a rock, or only relying on Faux News for info.

    3 days ago: Andrew Cuomo, the governor of New York, has condemned the US federal government for fueling an “eBay”-style bidding war for ventilators as the coronavirus outbreak intensifies.

    “You have 50 states competing to buy the same item,” he said.

    “We all wind up bidding up each other and competing against each other, where you now literally will have a company call you up and say, ‘Well, California just outbid you.’ It’s like being on eBay with 50 other states, bidding on a ventilator.”

    The Federal Emergency Management Agency (Fema) was making matters worse, Cuomo added.

    “How inefficient! And then Fema gets involved and Fema starts bidding. And now Fema is bidding on top of the 50. So Fema is driving up the price. What sense does this make?

    “The federal government, Fema, should have been the purchasing agent: buy everything and then allocate by need to the states. Why would you create a situation where the 50 states are competing with each other and then the federal government and Fema comes in and competes with the rest of it?”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/31/new-york-andrew-cuomo-coronavirus-ventilators
     
  38. hoosboot

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    Being unable to counter your arguments "...has become so frustrating" for CoH. The Trump Administration's response to 9/11 would have been "This is why Chuck Schumer is a terrible Senator" or "If that Governor whose brother is on CNN wants help he needs to be nice to me."
     
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  39. Marvin the Martian

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    Mobilization happened really fast, in 1942 we built more aircraft than any two other countries combined. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_aircraft_production. Our problem wasn't goods, it was training people. That will be a problem for us today as well, but we need the ventilators ASAP. What is the best formula for getting maximum number of ventilators at a price we can pay? I doubt we want to pay $1 million per ventilator, but if we did I am sure we would get a lot of them in a hurry. I personally believe the answer was to force companies into the game. If they spent a week doing a cost/benfit analysis, that's a week we lost.
     
  40. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    There is something about the argument that there are times we need to act more as a team than as a collection of random individuals that some people absolutely hate. They praise people like Knight for building teams that function together as one, but in real life they demand the right to act in favor of the individual over the group in any and all circumstances.

    Fighting a war as always been a team sport. I invite people to watch the opening speech to the movie Patton:

    An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, and fights as a team. This individual hero stuff is bulls***. The bilious bastards who write that stuff for the Saturday Evening Post don't know any more about real battle than they do about F******. (that comes from the actual speech, not the movie version).
    Trump rightly called this a war. If we were at war with China, we wouldn't wait to see who would volunteer to build fighter jets. We would call them up and tell them they are building figher jets. I've never heard CO, or anyone, explain why that analogy is totally wrong. Are we in a war? How do we mobilize to win a war?
     
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