My NHS/British Health care system experience

[PhyloeBedoe]

This is a lengthy post, (my first here, in fact...) and I'm sorry about that. I hope this story contributes to the current health care debate, as I've often read here and elsewhere about the poor care and service people are getting in other countries with universal health care.


So I'm in England, Brighton to be exact. I've been here in Europe since May, working in various towns and countries.


It's late afternoon, and I go downstairs to the pub on the ground floor that belongs to the local Hilton I'm staying in. It happens to be right on the water.


One of the defining characteristics of Brighton, and it's beach, is that it is very unlike your typical beach. It's not really warm or beachy, even though the thermometer says otherwise. It's usually so windy that you're still wearing jeans and a light jacket. Well, yesterday, it was every bit of that and more.


So I'm out on the terrace, having a pint. After finishing it up, I decide it's too windy to sit out there and I head inside. I grab a door and step inside, instinctively putting my right hand out to the stop the door. Well, the door was defective, as it's slowing mechanism failed to slow. Additionally, the wind caught the door and flung it shut. It caught the very tip of my pinky finger, and BANG, it was a disgusting bloody pulp. I was so shocked that it was still attached. (Pics for anyone who has the stomach and interest for it...)


I immediately began to bleed everywhere, and my finger was a gruesome sight, and the hotel employees were not enjoying it.


After some pointless but well meaning first-aid, they pop me into the first cab with a bag of ice, and told the cabbie to take me to the Brighton and Essex university hospital, where minutes later, I was walking into the ER.


I stand in line, waiting to check in. Ten minutes later after getting my birth date and name, they tell me to sit down and I'll be seen later. There is a chalkboard on the wall saying it will be 2.5 hrs before the real doctor can see me. After 30 mins, i get an initial consultation with one of the nurses. She immediately refers me to their X-ray dept, where I sit down for 15 mins before having my finger zapped there. Then back to main waiting room, which is full by the way.


Another half hour goes by, and the same nurse calls me back in and says the finger is broken. (She failed to tell me how broken though, seeing how I'm squeamish already. It turns out the last digit was pulverized.)


She then says I will need surgery. Great. I was holding out hope that they could just tape it up, but that wishful thought was dashed. But the problem then was, the orthopedics on staff there couldn't fit me in that night. It would have to be done the next day or the day after that.


Well, as a person who's in Europe as a worker, and not just vacationing, I tell her this is just not possible. I won't even be in Brighton tomorrow, and it's far from ideal to let this thing sit anyway. (The thing is, I'm a musician, and I'm on tour, and there is a show tomorrow night in London, that must happen. Every show is important of course. And after that show is done, we move on to the next city. There's just no room in the schedule to accommodate a surgery in coming days without canceling a show...)


So these people come to understand my predicament, and say then the best I can hope for is that I have a consultation in a couple hours with the orthopedist on staff that night. They promised me nothing, but said they'd try.


So a couple hours later, with visits from my colleagues to deliver phone chargers and friendly company, I finally get called in to one of the rooms. I have to explain why this surgery "must happen" tonight, and he simply accepts my schedule predicament and says "ok, let's do it..."


He prepares the table, tells me what he going to do (but undersells the actual procedure...it was gnarly and he rightfully kept the info limited...) and he gets to work. It takes about an hour. He's chatting away the whole time, asking me about myself etc and keeps me and mind focused other things. I always say I'm from Indiana, and it usually gets followed up by "so is that near...??" "Yes, near Chicago."


Then, it's done. He asks if I have any allergies, and whatnot, and tells me what to expect with follow up visits and how it will heal, and then in walks the pharmacist with ten days worth of penicillin in a box, along with extra bandages, tape etc.


We come to the point in the transaction where I'm wondering (dreading) what the bill might be, as up until now, there's been no mention of it whatsoever.

I say "so what now?"

He says "That's it. You can leave."

Me: "Really? Nothing? Not even something to sign? Or pay for the medicine?"

Him: "Nope. That's it. You're good to go. Leave."

M: "Is this how it is for every British citizen?"

H: "Yep".


So that's my story of how I got treated in a British hospital. The whole experience from walking in, to having the surgery and walking out, took 4.5 hours. And the surgery was done by what turned out to be an orthopedic hand specialist. And it didn't cost me neither a British or American penny. Hopefully the finger heals properly.


So, why can't we Americans have this?

Aren't we supposed to be the best country in the world?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Thanks for sharing. Good luck with the finger. Somehow most of the industrial world manages to do what you describe, yet many Americans believe it to be totally impossible.

 

[Zizkov]

This is a lengthy post, (my first here, in fact...) and I'm sorry about that. I hope this story contributes to the current health care debate, as I've often read here and elsewhere about the poor care and service people are getting in other countries with universal health care.


So I'm in England, Brighton to be exact. I've been here in Europe since May, working in various towns and countries.


It's late afternoon, and I go downstairs to the pub on the ground floor that belongs to the local Hilton I'm staying in. It happens to be right on the water.


One of the defining characteristics of Brighton, and it's beach, is that it is very unlike your typical beach. It's not really warm or beachy, even though the thermometer says otherwise. It's usually so windy that you're still wearing jeans and a light jacket. Well, yesterday, it was every bit of that and more.


So I'm out on the terrace, having a pint. After finishing it up, I decide it's too windy to sit out there and I head inside. I grab a door and step inside, instinctively putting my right hand out to the stop the door. Well, the door was defective, as it's slowing mechanism failed to slow. Additionally, the wind caught the door and flung it shut. It caught the very tip of my pinky finger, and BANG, it was a disgusting bloody pulp. I was so shocked that it was still attached. (Pics for anyone who has the stomach and interest for it...)


I immediately began to bleed everywhere, and my finger was a gruesome sight, and the hotel employees were not enjoying it.


After some pointless but well meaning first-aid, they pop me into the first cab with a bag of ice, and told the cabbie to take me to the Brighton and Essex university hospital, where minutes later, I was walking into the ER.


I stand in line, waiting to check in. Ten minutes later after getting my birth date and name, they tell me to sit down and I'll be seen later. There is a chalkboard on the wall saying it will be 2.5 hrs before the real doctor can see me. After 30 mins, i get an initial consultation with one of the nurses. She immediately refers me to their X-ray dept, where I sit down for 15 mins before having my finger zapped there. Then back to main waiting room, which is full by the way.


Another half hour goes by, and the same nurse calls me back in and says the finger is broken. (She failed to tell me how broken though, seeing how I'm squeamish already. It turns out the last digit was pulverized.)


She then says I will need surgery. Great. I was holding out hope that they could just tape it up, but that wishful thought was dashed. But the problem then was, the orthopedics on staff there couldn't fit me in that night. It would have to be done the next day or the day after that.


Well, as a person who's in Europe as a worker, and not just vacationing, I tell her this is just not possible. I won't even be in Brighton tomorrow, and it's far from ideal to let this thing sit anyway. (The thing is, I'm a musician, and I'm on tour, and there is a show tomorrow night in London, that must happen. Every show is important of course. And after that show is done, we move on to the next city. There's just no room in the schedule to accommodate a surgery in coming days without canceling a show...)


So these people come to understand my predicament, and say then the best I can hope for is that I have a consultation in a couple hours with the orthopedist on staff that night. They promised me nothing, but said they'd try.


So a couple hours later, with visits from my colleagues to deliver phone chargers and friendly company, I finally get called in to one of the rooms. I have to explain why this surgery "must happen" tonight, and he simply accepts my schedule predicament and says "ok, let's do it..."


He prepares the table, tells me what he going to do (but undersells the actual procedure...it was gnarly and he rightfully kept the info limited...) and he gets to work. It takes about an hour. He's chatting away the whole time, asking me about myself etc and keeps me and mind focused other things. I always say I'm from Indiana, and it usually gets followed up by "so is that near...??" "Yes, near Chicago."


Then, it's done. He asks if I have any allergies, and whatnot, and tells me what to expect with follow up visits and how it will heal, and then in walks the pharmacist with ten days worth of penicillin in a box, along with extra bandages, tape etc.


We come to the point in the transaction where I'm wondering (dreading) what the bill might be, as up until now, there's been no mention of it whatsoever.

I say "so what now?"

He says "That's it. You can leave."

Me: "Really? Nothing? Not even something to sign? Or pay for the medicine?"

Him: "Nope. That's it. You're good to go. Leave."

M: "Is this how it is for every British citizen?"

H: "Yep".


So that's my story of how I got treated in a British hospital. The whole experience from walking in, to having the surgery and walking out, took 4.5 hours. And the surgery was done by what turned out to be an orthopedic hand specialist. And it didn't cost me neither a British or American penny. Hopefully the finger heals properly.


So, why can't we Americans have this?

Aren't we supposed to be the best country in the world?

Having lived over a decade in a universal care system there is no comparison. I receive excellent care, right away with no out of pocket costs.

Why the US is fighting it is still a mystery. (Not really, follow the money).

Anyway, good luck with the tour. Any chance you guys make it over to the Czech Republic?

 

[PhyloeBedoe]

Agreed. It's crazy that we have some that are moving *against* this type of thing.

Until you experience it or something similar, you can't really appreciate it.

We already did Prague in October, sorry to say.

 

[sglowrider]

I think the jingoistic words you are looking for are 'freedom', 'choice' and 'competition.' Its unamerican otherwise.

Apparently, you cant ever be healthy without those keywords.

 

[Optimist13]

My cousin was not feeling well so he went to the ER where he lived Ottawa Canada. He was there 3 or 4 hours was supposedly checked and sent home. That evening he passed away at home. He was 61 years old.

Personal anecdotes like this one and the prior poster are not necessarily reflective of the OVERALL level of care that one typically receives.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

This is a lengthy post, (my first here, in fact...) and I'm sorry about that. I hope this story contributes to the current health care debate, as I've often read here and elsewhere about the poor care and service people are getting in other countries with universal health care.


So I'm in England, Brighton to be exact. I've been here in Europe since May, working in various towns and countries.


It's late afternoon, and I go downstairs to the pub on the ground floor that belongs to the local Hilton I'm staying in. It happens to be right on the water.


One of the defining characteristics of Brighton, and it's beach, is that it is very unlike your typical beach. It's not really warm or beachy, even though the thermometer says otherwise. It's usually so windy that you're still wearing jeans and a light jacket. Well, yesterday, it was every bit of that and more.


So I'm out on the terrace, having a pint. After finishing it up, I decide it's too windy to sit out there and I head inside. I grab a door and step inside, instinctively putting my right hand out to the stop the door. Well, the door was defective, as it's slowing mechanism failed to slow. Additionally, the wind caught the door and flung it shut. It caught the very tip of my pinky finger, and BANG, it was a disgusting bloody pulp. I was so shocked that it was still attached. (Pics for anyone who has the stomach and interest for it...)


I immediately began to bleed everywhere, and my finger was a gruesome sight, and the hotel employees were not enjoying it.


After some pointless but well meaning first-aid, they pop me into the first cab with a bag of ice, and told the cabbie to take me to the Brighton and Essex university hospital, where minutes later, I was walking into the ER.


I stand in line, waiting to check in. Ten minutes later after getting my birth date and name, they tell me to sit down and I'll be seen later. There is a chalkboard on the wall saying it will be 2.5 hrs before the real doctor can see me. After 30 mins, i get an initial consultation with one of the nurses. She immediately refers me to their X-ray dept, where I sit down for 15 mins before having my finger zapped there. Then back to main waiting room, which is full by the way.


Another half hour goes by, and the same nurse calls me back in and says the finger is broken. (She failed to tell me how broken though, seeing how I'm squeamish already. It turns out the last digit was pulverized.)


She then says I will need surgery. Great. I was holding out hope that they could just tape it up, but that wishful thought was dashed. But the problem then was, the orthopedics on staff there couldn't fit me in that night. It would have to be done the next day or the day after that.


Well, as a person who's in Europe as a worker, and not just vacationing, I tell her this is just not possible. I won't even be in Brighton tomorrow, and it's far from ideal to let this thing sit anyway. (The thing is, I'm a musician, and I'm on tour, and there is a show tomorrow night in London, that must happen. Every show is important of course. And after that show is done, we move on to the next city. There's just no room in the schedule to accommodate a surgery in coming days without canceling a show...)


So these people come to understand my predicament, and say then the best I can hope for is that I have a consultation in a couple hours with the orthopedist on staff that night. They promised me nothing, but said they'd try.


So a couple hours later, with visits from my colleagues to deliver phone chargers and friendly company, I finally get called in to one of the rooms. I have to explain why this surgery "must happen" tonight, and he simply accepts my schedule predicament and says "ok, let's do it..."


He prepares the table, tells me what he going to do (but undersells the actual procedure...it was gnarly and he rightfully kept the info limited...) and he gets to work. It takes about an hour. He's chatting away the whole time, asking me about myself etc and keeps me and mind focused other things. I always say I'm from Indiana, and it usually gets followed up by "so is that near...??" "Yes, near Chicago."


Then, it's done. He asks if I have any allergies, and whatnot, and tells me what to expect with follow up visits and how it will heal, and then in walks the pharmacist with ten days worth of penicillin in a box, along with extra bandages, tape etc.


We come to the point in the transaction where I'm wondering (dreading) what the bill might be, as up until now, there's been no mention of it whatsoever.

I say "so what now?"

He says "That's it. You can leave."

Me: "Really? Nothing? Not even something to sign? Or pay for the medicine?"

Him: "Nope. That's it. You're good to go. Leave."

M: "Is this how it is for every British citizen?"

H: "Yep".


So that's my story of how I got treated in a British hospital. The whole experience from walking in, to having the surgery and walking out, took 4.5 hours. And the surgery was done by what turned out to be an orthopedic hand specialist. And it didn't cost me neither a British or American penny. Hopefully the finger heals properly.


So, why can't we Americans have this?

Aren't we supposed to be the best country in the world?

4.5 hours is lightning fast for an ER visit. Go to any ER in Louisville and I promise that more often than not you'll sit in the waiting room for 8 hours.

See, the problem is people either don't have insurance or local doctors don't take the insurance they have. They end up in the ER, where they can't be turned away, for routine shit. Pushes wait times to ridiculous points.

 

[wiede]

My cousin was not feeling well so he went to the ER where he lived Ottawa Canada. He was there 3 or 4 hours was supposedly checked and sent home. That evening he passed away at home. He was 61 years old.

Personal anecdotes like this one and the prior poster are not necessarily reflective of the OVERALL level of care that one typically receives.

Poor healthcare can happen anywhere. There are bad doctors in every country, I'm pretty sure. I'm sorry to hear about your cousin.

Point is, overall the systems in other western democracies work as well, or much better, than our system. With much less cost.

It amazes me that the republicans want to strip away the protections that the ACA offered, and go back to health care essentially being a free for all. The ACA was far from perfect. But it was a start.

The scheme was actually pretty brilliant, but it was bastardized before it became law. And then the pubs did everything possible to starve it/beat it to death. If the penalties had happened quicker, the system would be in much better shape. Instead, the penalties were delayed, and fewer healthy young adults signed up for coverage.

In essence, it wasn't fully given a chance to donwhst it was supposed to do- cover more people and lower costs. Instead, even despite the issues, it basically kept health care premiums the same or maybe a hair lower than what would've happened without the ACA. With a LOT more coverage for those that have it.

And, it was a republican idea. That had been tested. In MA, under Mitt Romney no less.

It amazes me that people still won't acknowledge that universal coverage isn't necessary. All it takes is one fluke thing for a person to get screwed financially for their entire life. Disease and accidents can happen to anyone, at any time. And, the ACA also led to better protection for people, as "junk" policies were banished. Those may have been cheaper, but in many cases they were complete rip-offs.

The ACA isn't the best answer, but it's something. My hope is we can shore it up, and eventually move into single payer territory. It just makes too much sense not to do it that way. The problem is getting rid of the lobbyists that stand to lose everything if we go single payer.

Thanks for the story. Enjoy reading other folks' viewpoints.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Poor healthcare can happen anywhere. There are bad doctors in every country, I'm pretty sure. I'm sorry to hear about your cousin.

Point is, overall the systems in other western democracies work as well, or much better, than our system. With much less cost.

It amazes me that the republicans want to strip away the protections that the ACA offered, and go back to health care essentially being a free for all. The ACA was far from perfect. But it was a start.

The scheme was actually pretty brilliant, but it was bastardized before it became law. And then the pubs did everything possible to starve it/beat it to death. If the penalties had happened quicker, the system would be in much better shape. Instead, the penalties were delayed, and fewer healthy young adults signed up for coverage.

In essence, it wasn't fully given a chance to donwhst it was supposed to do- cover more people and lower costs. Instead, even despite the issues, it basically kept health care premiums the same or maybe a hair lower than what would've happened without the ACA. With a LOT more coverage for those that have it.

And, it was a republican idea. That had been tested. In MA, under Mitt Romney no less.

It amazes me that people still won't acknowledge that universal coverage isn't necessary. All it takes is one fluke thing for a person to get screwed financially for their entire life. Disease and accidents can happen to anyone, at any time. And, the ACA also led to better protection for people, as "junk" policies were banished. Those may have been cheaper, but in many cases they were complete rip-offs.

The ACA isn't the best answer, but it's something. My hope is we can shore it up, and eventually move into single payer territory. It just makes too much sense not to do it that way. The problem is getting rid of the lobbyists that stand to lose everything if we go single payer.

Thanks for the story. Enjoy reading other folks' viewpoints.

Medicare runs with a 2% overhead. Private insurance runs with a 30% overhead. But the gubment can't run nuthin'.

 

[PhyloeBedoe]

My cousin was not feeling well so he went to the ER where he lived Ottawa Canada. He was there 3 or 4 hours was supposedly checked and sent home. That evening he passed away at home. He was 61 years old.

Personal anecdotes like this one and the prior poster are not necessarily reflective of the OVERALL level of care that one typically receives.

I'm sorry about your cousin. I really am.

But quality of health care was only half my point. The other half was, no questions asked. No penny paid. no bill presented. High quality, and FREE.

Edit: ...and given to someone not a British citizen.

 

[37Hoosier]

Having lived over a decade in a universal care system there is no comparison. I receive excellent care, right away with no out of pocket costs.

Why the US is fighting it is still a mystery. (Not really, follow the money).

Anyway, good luck with the tour. Any chance you guys make it over to the Czech Republic?

Uhhh, the mystery might be pharma money, lobbyists, bribes to politicians, general greed...is my guess. Make America Great Again, please.

 

[Ewezrfan1]

I'm sorry about your cousin. I really am.

But quality of health care was only half my point. The other half was, no questions asked. No penny paid. no bill presented. High quality, and FREE.

Edit: ...and given to someone not a British citizen.

Having someone else pick up the check is always good. Not worrying about how things get paid for is a low stress deal for everyone. Well, except those who have to actually pay the bill. Or those who earn a living based on the services rendered. But free is great, especially when you get something of value.

 

[PhyloeBedoe]

Having someone else pick up the check is always good. Not worrying about how things get paid for is a low stress deal for everyone. Well, except those who have to actually pay the bill. Or those who earn a living based on the services rendered. But free is great, especially when you get something of value.

Nothing is free. But they've managed to cover the costs, and it seems no one is conplaining.

Also, the costs themselves are much lower in England. For instance, the royal baby cost $15k to deliver in the U.K. The average cost of delivering a baby in the states, for non-royalty, is $30k.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....he-average-american-birth-is-billed-at-30000/

 

[Ewezrfan1]

Nothing is free. But they've managed to cover the costs, and it seems no one is conplaining.

Also, the costs themselves are much lower in England. For instance, the royal baby cost $15k to deliver in the U.K. The average cost of delivering a baby in the states, for non-royalty, is $30k.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....he-average-american-birth-is-billed-at-30000/

Like I said, it's great when someone else picks up the tab, especially when you get something of value. But somebody pays, even if it's not you and even if the overall cost is less.

And lower costs don't happen magically. Someone "pays", be they doctors or nurses or techs or clinics or hospitals or drug makers or anyone else connected to providing health care. Lower costs to the consumer overwhelmingly come from lower expenses. Those people and the services they provide will have to earn less. In most cases, far, far less. Which is fine if you expect something for free and you don't pay their rent and if the care they provide meets your needs. I just hope the grocery stores and restaurants near me adopt a similar approach.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Like I said, it's great when someone else picks up the tab, especially when you get something of value. But somebody pays, even if it's not you and even if the overall cost is less.

And lower costs don't happen magically. Someone "pays", be they doctors or nurses or techs or clinics or hospitals or drug makers or anyone else connected to providing health care. Lower costs to the consumer overwhelmingly come from lower expenses. Those people and the services they provide will have to earn less. In most cases, far, far less. Which is fine if you expect something for free and you don't pay their rent and if the care they provide meets your needs. I just hope the grocery stores and restaurants near me adopt a similar approach.

So Americans should completely overpay for healthcare so someone else can get completely rich? If that's good, let's move all healthcare expenses to $1 million. Need a strep throat culture, $1 million. Some people will get very rich.

 

[Ewezrfan1]

So Americans should completely overpay for healthcare so someone else can get completely rich? If that's good, let's move all healthcare expenses to $1 million. Need a strep throat culture, $1 million. Some people will get very rich.

Not sure what you're reading, but I said none of that. I merely said that someone pays when you get it for free, and that significantly lowering the cost of care isn't a "free" endeavor. Not sure why that's so difficult for you to comprehend, though I would guess it's just a matter of seeing only what you want to see.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Not sure what you're reading, but I said none of that. I merely said that someone pays when you get it for free, and that significantly lowering the cost of care isn't a "free" endeavor. Not sure why that's so difficult for you to comprehend, though I would guess it's just a matter of seeing only what you want to see.

But we need to greatly lower costs as healthcare is greatly getting beyond the affordability of even the middle class. Healthcare has become a huge bubble, the bubble must be reduced.

 

[Ewezrfan1]

But we need to greatly lower costs as healthcare is greatly getting beyond the affordability of even the middle class. Healthcare has become a huge bubble, the bubble must be reduced.

I don't disagree with you in the least. Costs must be lowered significantly. I was simply commenting on the notion of what is "free", as well as the "bliss" of having someone else pick up the check, especially when you've received something of value. Somebody pays, even if it's not you or me.

 

[Rockfish1]

But we need to greatly lower costs as healthcare is greatly getting beyond the affordability of even the middle class. Healthcare has become a huge bubble, the bubble must be reduced.

As you know, our per capita costs are about twice as high as every other developed country's, because the prices we pay are much higher -- for everything from ambulance rides to hospital stays to prescription drugs to medical devices. That's because -- unlike every other developed country -- we rely on market forces to control costs in an inherently dysfunctional market.

Our long run fiscal projections look dire in distant years almost entirely because straight line projections of rising health care costs eventually become unsustainable. We have to get health care costs under control. Not just the government's costs -- everyone's costs.

If we are to pay less, then providers will have to receive less. This will cause real pain when it (slowly) happens, but happen it must. There just isn't any getting around this.

 

[mrhighlife]

Nothing is free. But they've managed to cover the costs, and it seems no one is conplaining.

Also, the costs themselves are much lower in England. For instance, the royal baby cost $15k to deliver in the U.K. The average cost of delivering a baby in the states, for non-royalty, is $30k.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....he-average-american-birth-is-billed-at-30000/

Like I said, it's great when someone else picks up the tab, especially when you get something of value. But somebody pays, even if it's not you and even if the overall cost is less.

And lower costs don't happen magically. Someone "pays", be they doctors or nurses or techs or clinics or hospitals or drug makers or anyone else connected to providing health care. Lower costs to the consumer overwhelmingly come from lower expenses. Those people and the services they provide will have to earn less. In most cases, far, far less. Which is fine if you expect something for free and you don't pay their rent and if the care they provide meets your needs. I just hope the grocery stores and restaurants near me adopt a similar approach.

It's not "free" obviously but it is more efficient and cost effective than our system. That is the OPs point.

 

[Ohio Guy]

I don't disagree with you in the least. Costs must be lowered significantly. I was simply commenting on the notion of what is "free", as well as the "bliss" of having someone else pick up the check, especially when you've received something of value. Somebody pays, even if it's not you or me.

This is a silly argument to me. You could view everything the government provides through a similar lens. When I drive on I-70 from Ohio to Indiana, I enjoy a 'free' highway. My kids enjoy a 'free' public education. I'm not sure why it's such a leap to adopt 'free' healthcare in this country.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

As you know, our per capita costs are about twice as high as every other developed country's, because the prices we pay are much higher -- for everything from ambulance rides to hospital stays to prescription drugs to medical devices. That's because -- unlike every other developed country -- we rely on market forces to control costs in an inherently dysfunctional market.

Our long run fiscal projections look dire in distant years almost entirely because straight line projections of rising health care costs eventually become unsustainable. We have to get health care costs under control. Not just the government's costs -- everyone's costs.

If we are to pay less, then providers will have to receive less. This will cause real pain when it (slowly) happens, but happen it must. There just isn't any getting around this.

We are going to lose jobs when some new plan emerges. And that isn't a positive, but it is a necessary evil. I have one friend who already knows his hospital job is gone if government cracks down on costs, he's been told as much. Instead of one person at each hospital doing what he does, the chain will have one person doing the job for all their hospitals and he will have a couple low level employees to assist. My buddy still supports single payer.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

This is a lengthy post, (my first here, in fact...) and I'm sorry about that. I hope this story contributes to the current health care debate, as I've often read here and elsewhere about the poor care and service people are getting in other countries with universal health care.


So I'm in England, Brighton to be exact. I've been here in Europe since May, working in various towns and countries.


It's late afternoon, and I go downstairs to the pub on the ground floor that belongs to the local Hilton I'm staying in. It happens to be right on the water.


One of the defining characteristics of Brighton, and it's beach, is that it is very unlike your typical beach. It's not really warm or beachy, even though the thermometer says otherwise. It's usually so windy that you're still wearing jeans and a light jacket. Well, yesterday, it was every bit of that and more.


So I'm out on the terrace, having a pint. After finishing it up, I decide it's too windy to sit out there and I head inside. I grab a door and step inside, instinctively putting my right hand out to the stop the door. Well, the door was defective, as it's slowing mechanism failed to slow. Additionally, the wind caught the door and flung it shut. It caught the very tip of my pinky finger, and BANG, it was a disgusting bloody pulp. I was so shocked that it was still attached. (Pics for anyone who has the stomach and interest for it...)


I immediately began to bleed everywhere, and my finger was a gruesome sight, and the hotel employees were not enjoying it.


After some pointless but well meaning first-aid, they pop me into the first cab with a bag of ice, and told the cabbie to take me to the Brighton and Essex university hospital, where minutes later, I was walking into the ER.


I stand in line, waiting to check in. Ten minutes later after getting my birth date and name, they tell me to sit down and I'll be seen later. There is a chalkboard on the wall saying it will be 2.5 hrs before the real doctor can see me. After 30 mins, i get an initial consultation with one of the nurses. She immediately refers me to their X-ray dept, where I sit down for 15 mins before having my finger zapped there. Then back to main waiting room, which is full by the way.


Another half hour goes by, and the same nurse calls me back in and says the finger is broken. (She failed to tell me how broken though, seeing how I'm squeamish already. It turns out the last digit was pulverized.)


She then says I will need surgery. Great. I was holding out hope that they could just tape it up, but that wishful thought was dashed. But the problem then was, the orthopedics on staff there couldn't fit me in that night. It would have to be done the next day or the day after that.


Well, as a person who's in Europe as a worker, and not just vacationing, I tell her this is just not possible. I won't even be in Brighton tomorrow, and it's far from ideal to let this thing sit anyway. (The thing is, I'm a musician, and I'm on tour, and there is a show tomorrow night in London, that must happen. Every show is important of course. And after that show is done, we move on to the next city. There's just no room in the schedule to accommodate a surgery in coming days without canceling a show...)


So these people come to understand my predicament, and say then the best I can hope for is that I have a consultation in a couple hours with the orthopedist on staff that night. They promised me nothing, but said they'd try.


So a couple hours later, with visits from my colleagues to deliver phone chargers and friendly company, I finally get called in to one of the rooms. I have to explain why this surgery "must happen" tonight, and he simply accepts my schedule predicament and says "ok, let's do it..."


He prepares the table, tells me what he going to do (but undersells the actual procedure...it was gnarly and he rightfully kept the info limited...) and he gets to work. It takes about an hour. He's chatting away the whole time, asking me about myself etc and keeps me and mind focused other things. I always say I'm from Indiana, and it usually gets followed up by "so is that near...??" "Yes, near Chicago."


Then, it's done. He asks if I have any allergies, and whatnot, and tells me what to expect with follow up visits and how it will heal, and then in walks the pharmacist with ten days worth of penicillin in a box, along with extra bandages, tape etc.


We come to the point in the transaction where I'm wondering (dreading) what the bill might be, as up until now, there's been no mention of it whatsoever.

I say "so what now?"

He says "That's it. You can leave."

Me: "Really? Nothing? Not even something to sign? Or pay for the medicine?"

Him: "Nope. That's it. You're good to go. Leave."

M: "Is this how it is for every British citizen?"

H: "Yep".


So that's my story of how I got treated in a British hospital. The whole experience from walking in, to having the surgery and walking out, took 4.5 hours. And the surgery was done by what turned out to be an orthopedic hand specialist. And it didn't cost me neither a British or American penny. Hopefully the finger heals properly.


So, why can't we Americans have this?

Aren't we supposed to be the best country in the world?

Many sympathies.

I won't do the politics, but I had a dorm door slam on my middle finger of my right hand back in 1980. I had to turn the knob and open the door to get it out.

I share and re-feel your pain.

That nail is still shaped differently than my others.

Worst part - at the time I was working at a gas station. About 3 days later, I had to unhook a pressurized air line. That little blast of air when the couplings come apart blew the bandage and nail off that finger.

How the hell did you PLAY any instrument after that?

 

[Rockfish1]

We are going to lose jobs when some new plan emerges. And that isn't a positive, but it is a necessary evil. I have one friend who already knows his hospital job is gone if government cracks down on costs, he's been told as much. Instead of one person at each hospital doing what he does, the chain will have one person doing the job for all their hospitals and he will have a couple low level employees to assist. My buddy still supports single payer.

This is a classic misallocation of resources -- way too much of our national income is flowing into the health care sector. When that income is reallocated we'll see more growth in other sectors, but there will definitely be pain for health care providers, particularly hospitals, drug companies, and medical device manufacturers.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I don't disagree with you in the least. Costs must be lowered significantly. I was simply commenting on the notion of what is "free", as well as the "bliss" of having someone else pick up the check, especially when you've received something of value. Somebody pays, even if it's not you or me.

OK, I assumed you were using it as an excuse not to alter healthcare. My bad.

 

[Ewezrfan1]

OK, I assumed you were using it as an excuse not to alter healthcare. My bad.

Not at all. Was only commenting on the notion (incorrect, I'm my opinion) that "free" is really free. It isn't, and it won't be even if we radically overhaul the US healthcare system into something approximating the NHS.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

So Americans should completely overpay for healthcare so someone else can get completely rich? If that's good, let's move all healthcare expenses to $1 million. Need a strep throat culture, $1 million. Some people will get very rich.

Edit: reply wasn't for you Marv. Just noticed right before I posted.

 

[Zizkov]

Agreed. It's crazy that we have some that are moving *against* this type of thing.

Until you experience it or something similar, you can't really appreciate it.

We already did Prague in October, sorry to say.

Too bad, I would have come out for sure. This must be a lengthy tour. Let me know if you make it back out this way.

I have given up on the US when it comes to healthcare. They will argue and pay far more then any other country for worse health, shorter life, poor maternity care and average care while the rest of the world goes on with very good healthcare.

There is no perfect system, it's easy to point out failures of all of them, but the universal system work by far the best for everybody and there are plenty of other options for those that really want to pay for it. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Not at all. Was only commenting on the notion (incorrect, I'm my opinion) that "free" is really free. It isn't, and it won't be even if we radically overhaul the US healthcare system into something approximating the NHS.

Everyone knows what "free" means. No one needs to be reminded that "someone has to pay for it," or whatever the preferred phrase is these days. Even making the statement is akin to calling someone stupid.

At the restaurant, we used to give hand-blown glass flowers to women who came in to celebrate their birthdays. If someone referred to it as a "free" gift, we didn't get bent out of shape imagining that they somehow didn't realize that we paid for them.

 

[Ewezrfan1]

Everyone knows what "free" means. No one needs to be reminded that "someone has to pay for it," or whatever the preferred phrase is these days. Even making the statement is akin to calling someone stupid.

At the restaurant, we used to give hand-blown glass flowers to women who came in to celebrate their birthdays. If someone referred to it as a "free" gift, we didn't get bent out of shape imagining that they somehow didn't realize that we paid for them.

With all respect, I do think it's important and instructive to point out that "free" doesn't mean the same to everyone. In this discussion and several more I've had with people on this topic, "free" is very much in the eye of the beholder, especially when it's considered within the context of who actually pays. It also varies greatly based on an understanding of how "free" impacts others, something that tends to happen when it's equal to 1/6th of the US economy.

So, I don't agree at all that everyone knows what "free" is in this debate. And, while a birthday gift might be a nice gesture, no one ever asserted that anyone has a right to free flowers on their special day (or any other time, for that matter).

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Me: "Really? Nothing? Not even something to sign? Or pay for the medicine?"

Him: "Nope. That's it. You're good to go. Leave."

M: "Is this how it is for every British citizen?"

H: "Yep".

Everyone knows what "free" means

Goat, I think the main point of the OP was about the Free (for the patient, not everyone else) and Ewez was within bounds with his discussion. He wasn't arrogant and only spoke in facts. It only turned into an argument because someone(s) didn't like his message.

 

[Rockfish1]

Goat, I think the main point of the OP was about the Free (for the patient, not everyone else) and Ewez was within bounds with his discussion. He wasn't arrogant and only spoke in facts. It only turned into an argument because someone(s) didn't like his message.

Yes, good point. Until Ewez weighed in everyone thought British health care was rendered costlessly by sprites and unicorns. No one had any idea that health care has costs.

The OP's point was that, in England, out-of-pocket costs are no bar to care for ordinary people. Here, however, they're a huge bar for lots of people. Yet despite having more "skin in the game" than the citizens of any other developed country, we still pay about twice as much as they do.

No, health care isn't "free" in England or anywhere else, but we pay more out-of-pocket, and we pay much more overall.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Goat, I think the main point of the OP was about the Free (for the patient, not everyone else) and Ewez was within bounds with his discussion. He wasn't arrogant and only spoke in facts. It only turned into an argument because someone(s) didn't like his message.

I didn't say anything about arrogance. I just pointed out that Ewez' reminder was unnecessary. Everyone knows that "free" health care actually costs money. Reminding someone of that fact is not only unnecessary, but easily rises to the level of insulting deflection, because any rational human being should feel insulted for someone to feel the need to remind them that the sky is blue.

Don't get me wrong. There are certainly posters here who need to be reminded about basic facts that everyone should know on a regular basis. But no one here (I hope) is dumb enough to need a reminder that magic isn't real.

 

[Ewezrfan1]

I didn't say anything about arrogance. I just pointed out that Ewez' reminder was unnecessary. Everyone knows that "free" health care actually costs money. Reminding someone of that fact is not only unnecessary, but easily rises to the level of insulting deflection, because any rational human being should feel insulted for someone to feel the need to remind them that the sky is blue.

Don't get me wrong. There are certainly posters here who need to be reminded about basic facts that everyone should know on a regular basis. But no one here (I hope) is dumb enough to need a reminder that magic isn't real.

The OP's use of "free" was pretty clearly an acknowledgement that he / she didn't have to pay, which was the rather obvious point I was making (and that his / her windfall was at someone else's expense). I think that point was (or should have been) an abundantly obvious to those with an open mind in the debate as to how most efficiently address our broken health care system. That it wasn't for a few is really more anmatter of their strident ideology and / or a refusal to consider all sides of the issue than on any notion of what "free" means.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The OP's use of "free" was pretty clearly an acknowledgement that he / she didn't have to pay, which was the rather obvious point I was making (and that his / her windfall was at someone else's expense). I think that point was (or should have been) an abundantly obvious to those with an open mind in the debate as to how most efficiently address our broken health care system. That it wasn't for a few is really more anmatter of their strident ideology and / or a refusal to consider all sides of the issue than on any notion of what "free" means.

You misunderstand. I'm saying it was abundantly clear. To everyone. It didn't need to be pointed out, and you pointing it out felt like you were talking down to others, as though some here couldn't grasp this very basic concept. This post of yours, I think, justifies my critique.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

This is a silly argument to me. You could view everything the government provides through a similar lens. When I drive on I-70 from Ohio to Indiana, I enjoy a 'free' highway. My kids enjoy a 'free' public education. I'm not sure why it's such a leap to adopt 'free' healthcare in this country.

I'm starting to get on board the single payer system myself, so long as it is more efficiently operable than Medicare and Medicaid programs.

Without higher premium requirements, how would you propose punishing smokers, drug users or those that purposely neglect their health? Perhaps we can have a single payer system that incorporate premiums or something similar that forces people to make better health decisions or pay more for their poor choices?

 

[UncleMark]

Without higher premium requirements, how would you propose punishing smokers, drug users or those that purposely neglect their health? Perhaps we can have a single payer system that incorporate premiums or something similar that forces people to make better health decisions or pay more for their poor choices?

Forget the smokers, they're a dwindling number (and drug abusers are an even smaller one). Go after the fatties. Base the premium on BMI. Oh, and you can't ignore the old people, either. Those old people really are a burden on the system. Charge them more the older they get. That'll teach 'em.

Old and fat? If they get sick, put em on a melting ice floe. Problem solved.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I'm starting to get on board the single payer system myself, so long as it is more efficiently operable than Medicare and Medicaid programs.

Without higher premium requirements, how would you propose punishing smokers, drug users or those that purposely neglect their health? Perhaps we can have a single payer system that incorporate premiums or something similar that forces people to make better health decisions or pay more for their poor choices?

Here's a thought, and I'm being serious here, not flippant: we could just eat the cost of those patients and attack those problems by trying to encourage good behavior. Anti-smoking campaigns have reduced the number of smokers to record low levels. We could also pursue policies that help combat obesity, and encourage physical activity. Michelle Obama's focus on school lunches took a beating for silly political reasons, but if we could put the partisanship aside on these issues - and if we're paying for national health care, I'd hope the financial incentive would be enough to force us to do so - we could probably gradually push toward a healthy America overall.

The problem with this, of course, is that we have a culture that seems to really want individuals to be punished for bad choices, even if it's more efficient for society as a whole to look for group solutions.

 

[Rockfish1]

Here's a thought, and I'm being serious here, not flippant: we could just eat the cost of those patients and attack those problems by trying to encourage good behavior. Anti-smoking campaigns have reduced the number of smokers to record low levels. We could also pursue policies that help combat obesity, and encourage physical activity. Michelle Obama's focus on school lunches took a beating for silly political reasons, but if we could put the partisanship aside on these issues - and if we're paying for national health care, I'd hope the financial incentive would be enough to force us to do so - we could probably gradually push toward a healthy America overall.

The problem with this, of course, is that we have a culture that seems to really want individuals to be punished for bad choices, even if it's more efficient for society as a whole to look for group solutions.

I don't think the desire to punish the "undeserving" has anything to do with efficiency.

 

[UncleMark]

I don't think the desire to punish the "undeserving" has anything to do with efficiency.

Exactly. They bring it on themselves. Tough shit.