Morgan Ellison

[DANC]

This is truly frightening - - not what you're asserting, but the fact that you actually believe it.

I don't know where you get your information, but you might want to mix it up a little and try some new sources.

You are free to not believe it. But the Jews didn't believe Hitler would actually round them up and exterminate them, either.

History has a way of repeating itself and, if you study it at all, you know civilizations have fallen due to the breakdown of their society. We're experiencing that now, and the #MeToo movement, and its fallout on campuses, is Exhibit A.

 

[DANC]

Meaningless.

Brainless

 

[JohnsyRick]

Bottom line: Ellison has been basically told (for all intents and purposes) by the University proper: "We don't want you here any longer."

He's headed elsewhere.

We could debate the fairness of the decision literally forever.

For the group that believes he may have been treated unfairly "or" that the system in place to judge him is lacking here's an article link:

http://specials.idsnews.com/the-system-3/

To get a complete overview of things read the other parts of what I think is a 4 part investigative Special presented by the Indiana Daily Student.

I really like the idea that the Athletic Department is cut out of the decision making loop in these cases.

Could the system be tweaked to make it fairer to both sides. Probably. I don't have any good ideas as to how.

I'm with the group saying to single guys everywhere: "attempt to pick your partners very wisely and always operate under the assumption that if at any point the woman even insinuates that she's not sure about things, or wants to discontinue the activities, it's her call to do so".

Anything less could end up messing up two lives...

Operate under the assumption that you will end up just like Ellison, or worse, if you ((the guy)) decide you "know" what she "really" wants...

I can only hope those defending titleIX ,and think the system used at IU is fair, read the link you posted.

 

[DANC]

I can only hope those defending titleIX ,and think the system used at IU is fair, read the link you posted.

My God, that is frightening.

"IU employees control the investigation, hearing, sanctions and appeals. “Remember the old saying, ‘judge, jury and executioner’?” Liell said. “That’s Indiana University.”

These sheep who blindly accept IU's ruling on these things should read this: http://specials.idsnews.com/the-system-3/

 

[82hoosier]

My God, that is frightening.

"IU employees control the investigation, hearing, sanctions and appeals. “Remember the old saying, ‘judge, jury and executioner’?” Liell said. “That’s Indiana University.”

These sheep who blindly accept IU's ruling on these things should read this: http://specials.idsnews.com/the-system-3/

You should have led with this article. It contains a lot of very good information that should be a concern to all.

This reminds me of a psychology test at Yale known as the Milgram experiment. The test was to see how strongly people would follow the rules even if conflicted with their own moral values. This 7-1/2 minute video is just okay but there is great value to be had from learning about this experiment.

https://www.khanacademy.org/test-pr...-psychology/v/milgram-experiment-on-obedience

 

[DANC]

You should have led with this article. It contains a lot of very good information that should be a concern to all.

This reminds me of a psychology test at Yale known as the Milgram experiment. The test was to see how strongly people would follow the rules even if conflicted with their own moral values. This 7-1/2 minute video is just okay but there is great value to be had from learning about this experiment.

https://www.khanacademy.org/test-pr...-psychology/v/milgram-experiment-on-obedience

I'm learning more as I go. I had no idea all this was going on and the lack of due process (I know that's overused, but I don't know any other way to put it).

I've heard about this other places, but I never dreamed it would be like this at IU. It definitely makes me rethink my financial support to the university (not that they would miss my pittance much).

 

[DANC]

You should have led with this article. It contains a lot of very good information that should be a concern to all.

This reminds me of a psychology test at Yale known as the Milgram experiment. The test was to see how strongly people would follow the rules even if conflicted with their own moral values. This 7-1/2 minute video is just okay but there is great value to be had from learning about this experiment.

https://www.khanacademy.org/test-pr...-psychology/v/milgram-experiment-on-obedience

By the way, I've seen that experiment described. It's frightening and explains how a populace can be controlled, even if they know better.

 

[Daydreamer]

I can only hope those defending titleIX ,and think the system used at IU is fair, read the link you posted.

The system may not be perfect but holding up a couple guys who think they weren’t treated fairly as being the entirety of the process is ludicrous.
Tell me how many they got right in comparison. And keep in mind that this story is one of a multipart series meant to explore the issue and not a standalone article exposing wrongdoing.

 

[Daydreamer]

My God, that is frightening.

"IU employees control the investigation, hearing, sanctions and appeals. “Remember the old saying, ‘judge, jury and executioner’?” Liell said. “That’s Indiana University.”

These sheep who blindly accept IU's ruling on these things should read this: http://specials.idsnews.com/the-system-3/

Laywers who make their living representing sexual assualt defendants saying “the system” is rigged against their clients? Whaaaaaaaat? I never knew laywers would do such a thing.

 

[limestonecowboy]

character assassination:

https://t.co/olOUyl7OCK

 

[mikewoodson2]

Stick my head in the sand? That's rich. Also, please show exactly how this process favored the accuser? Finally, why would your family member be in that position? Are they rapey?

You are a pompous prick, who has been proven COMPLETELY wrong by this article from the IDS.

Read it and weep. And next time don't be so sure of yourself and dismissive of others.

http://specials.idsnews.com/the-system-3/

 

[Chriselli]

character assassination:

https://t.co/olOUyl7OCK

LMAO. Sounds like another false case of a football player pinning a sleeping woman down, raping her, her barricading heavy stuff against her door and sleeping on towels in her bathroom. She must be "in it for the money." They usually are, right? Maybe the Clintons hired her because they thought Ellison should have gone to Arkansas.

 

[limestonecowboy]

You are a pompous prick, who has been proven COMPLETELY wrong by this article from the IDS.

Read it and weep. And next time don't be so sure of yourself and dismissive of others.

http://specials.idsnews.com/the-system-3/

Lol, all of us cishet men should unite under the banner of this link...one link to rule them all. May all who read it, weep.

I'm sure the system isn't perfect, but this article is so myopic I don't know how it can really be useful or illuminating. I mean, it's essentially a polemic.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I see two points, innocent until proven guilty and the university as judge and jury that need addressed.

How often in this country do employers fire people for something like theft. They do not take it to the police, they hold no hearings, they just fire the person. Do you favor forcing employers to meet the legal standard? If not, what is the difference in those cases from this case?

 

[h20pls]

There is no substitute for evidence and due process.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/a-terrible-college-case-shows-the-high-cost-of-believe-women/

 

[82hoosier]

So the system that IU has in place established Ellison to be guilty enough to warrant an almost three year suspension from the university. Meanwhile, the actual court of law couldn't establish enough evidence to even pursue charges...boy, talk about a kangaroo court!!

I won't be one bit surprised if Morgan doesn't sue the pants off of Indiana University!!!!!!!!

My understanding is that the woman pursued this through the University instead of the court. I don't think there is any information to suggest that she could not have gone to the police.

 

[IUgradman]

You are free to not believe it. But the Jews didn't believe Hitler would actually round them up and exterminate them, either.

History has a way of repeating itself and, if you study it at all, you know civilizations have fallen due to the breakdown of their society. We're experiencing that now, and the #MeToo movement, and its fallout on campuses, is Exhibit A.

Are you seriously comparing #MeToo to the Holocaust? What a joke. I love seeing all of these powerful, rich, white men being held accountable for their crimes at long last.

 

[Bowlmania]

Are you seriously comparing #MeToo to the Holocaust? What a joke. I love seeing all of these powerful, rich, white men being held accountable for their crimes at long last.

Yeah, with that post, this thread has officially jumped the shark.

 

[82hoosier]

The following article is from the Indy Star dated Oct. 12. I think the lesson here is don't crawl into bed with strangers who are asleep and then expect consent to be anything short of cries for help or physical combat.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...ed-sexual-assault-survivor-speaks/1616527002/

 

[mikewoodson2]

Lol, all of us cishet men should unite under the banner of this link...one link to rule them all. May all who read it, weep.

I'm sure the system isn't perfect, but this article is so myopic I don't know how it can really be useful or illuminating. I mean, it's essentially a polemic.

I'm not saying Ellison is innocent. I read the victim's account and it is compelling. My point is that the system IU uses denies due process to the accused. It is FAR from a fair system, as the female lawyers state quite eloquently in the article.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

How would we know? No details are divulged. My God, that is the whole point of my argument.

How many here trashing Ellison's reputation know what actually happened?

Your definition of due process is very incomplete. A key tenant of due process is the PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE. That seems to have been lost in all this.

Some details have been divulged. It appears that she alleges she was asleep and he engaged her sexually, and then continued after she woke up and he used force to continue after she told him to stop.

He claims that the encounter was consensual.

I don't recall anyone trashing Ellison. I certainly haven't. My definition of due process is not incomplete. The presumption of innocence is not part of due process in civil proceedings like the one Ellison had. Nothing is lost...you just wish the law was different than it is. Personally, I'd be in favor of changing it to the way you wish it was, but that doesn't change the fact that the law is NOT that way.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

If you don't think these threads about Ellison are assaults on his character, then we will have to disagree.

I think any time that, based on evidence we know so far, the accused is guilty, that, by definition is an assassination of his character.

Call me 'wound up' if you want, but this has very far-reaching consequences. If you've studied any history at all, you would recognize this as similar to the French Revolution, where anyone could face the guillotine without trial, just based on accusations. We're not quite there yet, but we're not far from it.

A 2.5 year ban from attending one college is very, very far from a beheading. And Ellison's punishment was not meted out merely based on accusations. We are no where near a "guillotine without a trial." Fear-mongering is not the key to victory in this argument.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

I'm not saying Ellison is innocent. I read the victim's account and it is compelling. My point is that the system IU uses denies due process to the accused. It is FAR from a fair system, as the female lawyers state quite eloquently in the article.

Other than being unfair, what specifically about the system they use denies due processas it exists in these types of cases?

What aspect of due process is he guaranteed that was not provided to him? This isn't rhetorical, I'm genuinely asking...

 

[Mackt10]

I honestly just don't think any comment on this can be helpful. Welcome to 2018! I hope justice is done. Whatever that is.

 

[82hoosier]

Not defending Ellison here but it is wrong that an accuser gets to keep their anonymity but put their version of the story in the press with a public accusation. I am not saying she is not truthful. Everyone in the process has been tight lipped because of the rules of the procedure. Trying this exclusively in the press is wrong.

 

[Grateful Redbeard]

You are a pompous prick, who has been proven COMPLETELY wrong by this article from the IDS.

Read it and weep. And next time don't be so sure of yourself and dismissive of others.

http://specials.idsnews.com/the-system-3/

Bwaaaaahhhh!

Nothing I wrote has been proven wrong. Your cherry picked article proves nothing either. I'm glad we had this thread so all the neanderthals on the board could out themselves.

 

[ufo33]

Would Ellison be still be playing at Michigan State?

 

[IUgradman]

Would Ellison be still be playing at Michigan State?

He’d be team captain.

 

[mattndallas]

http://specials.idsnews.com/the-system-3/

Wasn't aware of the process, but ours does seem a little reckless given what's at stake.

 

[mattndallas]

Our guys were all out The Pointe Friday night, correct?

https://www.idsnews.com/article/2018/10/23-year-old-reports-potential-friday-rape

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I see two points, innocent until proven guilty and the university as judge and jury that need addressed.

How often in this country do employers fire people for something like theft. They do not take it to the police, they hold no hearings, they just fire the person. Do you favor forcing employers to meet the legal standard? If not, what is the difference in those cases from this case?

Indiana's an "at will" state for private employment.

IU is a public institution, and DP rights therefore attach to actions by IU that don't attach to actions by private employers.

 

[mikewoodson2]

Bwaaaaahhhh!

Nothing I wrote has been proven wrong. Your cherry picked article proves nothing either. I'm glad we had this thread so all the neanderthals on the board could out themselves.

So now, according to legal scholar Redbeard, if you think due process is important, you are a Neanderthal.

Listen snowflake, your virtue-signaling does you no favors here. We deal in facts, and due process for the accused is a cornerstone of our legal system.

Maybe you missed the GIANT lesson of To Kill A Mockingbird?

You are an embarrassment to the human race.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

I have college-aged kids of both genders. I remain much more concerned for my daughter's welfare than my son's.

No doubt, I feel the same way. That said, the environment of assumtive guilt is dangerous for all.

 

[DANC]

Laywers who make their living representing sexual assualt defendants saying “the system” is rigged against their clients? Whaaaaaaaat? I never knew laywers would do such a thing.

They gave clear examples, if you bothered to read the article.

Clearly facts are ignored here.

 

[DANC]

Are you seriously comparing #MeToo to the Holocaust? What a joke. I love seeing all of these powerful, rich, white men being held accountable for their crimes at long last.

Interesting. I didn't know Ellison was a powerful, rich white man.

That'll teach him!

 

[DANC]

Are you seriously comparing #MeToo to the Holocaust? What a joke. I love seeing all of these powerful, rich, white men being held accountable for their crimes at long last.

No, it's not a comparison. It's an analogy.

Google the difference, snowflake.

 

[DANC]

A 2.5 year ban from attending one college is very, very far from a beheading. And Ellison's punishment was not meted out merely based on accusations. We are no where near a "guillotine without a trial." Fear-mongering is not the key to victory in this argument.

We're closer than you think.

 

[Bowlmania]

No doubt, I feel the same way. That said, the environment of assumtive guilt is dangerous for all.

I think the issue/problem/frequency/risk of "assumptive guilt" is being overplayed these days, largely for political gain.

For generations, women who were raped were told a) they were liars, b) no one will believe them, c) it was their fault, d) get over it, d) they deserved it, e) shut the f*ck up about it, or some combination of the above. Maybe the biggest surprise is that it took so long for the "me too" movement to come about. Perhaps the pendulum is now swinging a bit too far the other way, which sometimes happens with movements for social change, but there's usually a natural correction and things end up better than they were before.

In any event, I'm more than a little confident that, over the course of history, the number of women who have been raped without the perpetrators brought to justice exponentially exceeds the number of men who have been falsely accused. And, as I said in an earlier post, if a man acts responsibly, the risk of being falsely accused is slim to none.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

We're closer than you think.

Oh, okay. I'm still not scared.

You could have just said "Nuh uh" and saved yourself some keystrokes.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

I think the issue/problem/frequency/risk of "assumptive guilt" is being overplayed these days, largely for political gain.

For generations, women who were raped were told a) they were liars, b) no one will believe them, c) it was their fault, d) get over it, d) they deserved it, e) shut the f*ck up about it, or some combination of the above. Maybe the biggest surprise is that it took so long for the "me too" movement to come about. Perhaps the pendulum is now swinging a bit too far the other way, which sometimes happens with movements for social change, but there's usually a natural correction and things end up better than they were before.

In any event, I'm more than a little confident that, over the course of history, the number of women who have been raped without the perpetrators brought to justice exponentially exceeds the number of men who have been falsely accused. And, as I said in an earlier post, if a man acts responsibly, the risk of being falsely accused is slim to none.

There are a whole lot of things being "overplayed" these days for political gain. Watch MSNBC or FOX for daily examples.

Using people as human make up calls regardless of guilt is no way to correct past wrongs.