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More sad than mad.

Bucket Getter

Bucket Getter

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Apr 9, 2023
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As a lifelong fan who fell in love with IU basketball during the Vern Payne, Bill DeHeer, Butch Joyner and later Joe Cooke and Bootsy White - black and white, snowy TV days - I am in shock at how I feel today. This team has totally (maybe irreversibly) destroyed any passion I had for the program. Woody seems like a pretty nice guy in most of his pressers, but he clearly has no clue what he's gotten himself into. Continually singling out the seniors as the biggest problem on the team is a horrible optic and flat out wrong. The seniors are what they are. Modestly talented players with no clear direction from the bench. Woody's lifetime of built up good will in Hoosier Nation is being sullied more and more daily.

It's all just sad to me what we've become.
 
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Bucket Getter said:
As a lifelong fan who fell in love with IU basketball during the Vern Payne, Bill DeHeer, Butch Joyner and later Joe Cooke and Bootsy White - black and white, snowy TV days - I am in shock at how I feel today. This team has totally (maybe irreversibly) destroyed any passion I had for the program. Woody seems like a pretty nice guy in most of his pressers, but he clearly has no clue what he's gotten himself into. Continually singling out the seniors as the biggest problem on the team is a horrible optic and flat out wrong. The seniors are what they are. Modestly talented players with no clear direction from the bench. Woody's lifetime of built up good will in Hoosier Nation is being sullied more and more daily.

It's all just sad to me what we've become.
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Iu is a bad program all around. Poor leadership from the top down. Zero toughness or culture
 
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Bucket Getter said:
As a lifelong fan who fell in love with IU basketball during the Vern Payne, Bill DeHeer, Butch Joyner and later Joe Cooke and Bootsy White - black and white, snowy TV days - I am in shock at how I feel today. This team has totally (maybe irreversibly) destroyed any passion I had for the program. Woody seems like a pretty nice guy in most of his pressers, but he clearly has no clue what he's gotten himself into. Continually singling out the seniors as the biggest problem on the team is a horrible optic and flat out wrong. The seniors are what they are. Modestly talented players with no clear direction from the bench. Woody's lifetime of built up good will in Hoosier Nation is being sullied more and more daily.

It's all just sad to me what we've become.
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Certainly didn’t think I’d read the name of Hammond Tech and Region legend, Bootsy White today. A one year player for both Watson, in his last year, and Coach Knight in his first. No idea what happened to him after he left IU.
 
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4IUSox2 said:
Certainly didn’t think I’d read the name of Hammond Tech and Region legend, Bootsy White today. A one year player for both Watson, in his last year, and Coach Knight in his first. No idea what happened to him after he left IU.
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I don't know if they did it back then, but you'd think the crowd would BOOOOOOOOTSIE everytime he scored.
 
I respect your opinions but the 2003-2004 season had to be the absolute worst I have ever experienced. Completely unwatchable chaos on the floor and finished with a 14-15 record and UK beat us 80-41. It was doubly bad since RMK’s teams playing wonderful basketball were still fresh in mind.
 
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TR32 said:
He has built an NBA style without completing an NBA roster.

If he had Yogi, Gordon, OG, Trayce, and Ware, they'd do well with what he's installed. Problem is he's tried to coach an NBA team with college players.
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They’d still have a decided ceiling…well below what it should be. They’d be similar to Creans better Zeller team…top 5 -10 throughout the year. Constant feeling they’d play a bad game and lose in March though.
 
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I’m mad because we can’t hire a coach to drive the Ferrari that is IUBB. We have all this NIL (around top-5), athletic dept budget for bball is tops on the conf, fans desperate for good hoops, great home court, and good facilities. Why have we sucked for 30 years? Surely someone can take advantage of what IU has as a program.

I suspect it’s our admin (underqualified ADs, aloof Presidents like McRobbie, meddlers like Herbert) and politics (like Buckner) that screw up everything we have going for us.
 
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Tammany Hall said:
I’m mad because we can’t hire a coach to drive the Ferrari that is IUBB. We have all this NIL (around top-5), athletic dept budget for bball is tops on the conf, fans desperate for good hoops, great home court, and good facilities. Why have we sucked for 30 years? Surely someone can take advantage of what IU has as a program.

I suspect it’s our admin (underqualified ADs, aloof Presidents like McRobbie, meddlers like Herbert) and politics (like Buckner) that screw up everything we have going for us.
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I was listening to Michael Lombardi on MacAfee yesterday. He was talking about NFL franchises and their coaching searches. And one of his main points was that organizations are almost always more successful when they take some time to establish who they want to be…styles of play, culture, etc… THEN go get a coach that fits that style.

I don’t know how our ADs approached the post RMK hires…seems like Davis was an easy way out/convenience choice, Crean was the best they felt they could get in their situation, maybe same with Woody. Sampson and Archie might have been thought out a little more and somewhat style based. But obviously those were horrible IU fits.

The next time we hire someone…the AD needs to establish what kind of bball IU should play, what kind of culture they should have, and match the candidates to that.

Up tempo, modern, open, guard oriented, smart, focused, disciplined. Basketball that IU fans will appreciate. Doesn’t have to be the “good ole” RMK motion offense and man to man defense. But it should have those elements. Study the Warriors, Jay Wrights Villanova teams, Pearls Auburn teams, etc…

And don’t hire anyone that doesn’t believe in that style of ball, and that hasn’t proven they can coach it. There are lots of college coaches out there running modern stuff and having success doing it. Go find 5 of them to interview, even if a couple are lower level college, and start the rebuild.

Archie and Woodys biggest problem was they were both stubborn to ineffective AND unappealing basketball. Even in the face of failure.
 
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IUNorth said:
I was listening to Michael Lombardi on MacAfee yesterday. He was talking about NFL franchises and their coaching searches. And one of his main points was that organizations are almost always more successful when they take some time to establish who they want to be…styles of play, culture, etc… THEN go get a coach that fits that style.

I don’t know how our ADs approached the post RMK hires…seems like Davis was an easy way out/convenience choice, Crean was the best they felt they could get in their situation, maybe same with Woody. Sampson and Archie might have been thought out a little more and somewhat style based. But obviously those were horrible IU fits.

The next time we hire someone…the AD needs to establish what kind of bball IU should play, what kind of culture they should have, and match the candidates to that.

Up tempo, modern, open, guard oriented, smart, focused, disciplined. Basketball that IU fans will appreciate. Doesn’t have to be the “good ole” RMK motion offense and man to man defense. But it should have those elements. Study the Warriors, Jay Wrights Villanova teams, Pearls Auburn teams, etc…

And don’t hire anyone that doesn’t believe in that style of ball, and that hasn’t proven they can coach it. There are lots of college coaches out there running modern stuff and having success doing it. Go find 5 of them to interview, even if a couple are lower level college, and start the rebuild.

Archie and Woodys biggest problem was they were both stubborn to ineffective AND unappealing basketball. Even in the face of failure.
Click to expand...

The last few ADs at IU haven't had a coaching background. You might have to go back to Ralph Floyd? They might have been good fundraisers or ass-kissers but have not in general been a good judge of coaches.
 
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ams66 said:
The last few ADs at IU haven't had a coaching background. You might have to go back to Ralph Floyd? They might have been good fundraisers or ass-kissers but have not in general been a good judge of coaches.
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Greenspan had things headed in the right direction, but Hep's cancer and then having to fall on his sword over Sampson (a Herbert hire) ended that.
 
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CriticArisen said:
I respect your opinions but the 2003-2004 season had to be the absolute worst I have ever experienced. Completely unwatchable chaos on the floor and finished with a 14-15 record and UK beat us 80-41. It was doubly bad since RMK’s teams playing wonderful basketball were still fresh in mind.
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Freshmen year at IU! Hoosiers hate me
 
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ams66 said:
The last few ADs at IU haven't had a coaching background. You might have to go back to Ralph Floyd? They might have been good fundraisers or ass-kissers but have not in general been a good judge of coaches.
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It’s not overly necessary. Do some research. Heck, ask Coach Moren her advice. Watch a lot of games, ask friends.

I think it’s obvious after Stevens said no finally, that Dolson relied too heavily on former IU people, like Buckner. And while their intentions were probably good, they didn’t vet Woody deeply enough, or ask enough questions on what he’d actually run, how he’d manage the program, etc… Just a guess, but him being an all time great, that played for RMK, that had NBA head coaching experience…was probably enough.

Next time they need to establish very clear and strict guidelines on the style, the types of players they want, the culture, etc… And don’t even interview anyone that doesn’t fit those parameters.

Obviously you can still miss with that approach. But if you hire a successful college coach, from any level, that plays a style that will appeal to any player, and that has an established record for having teams that are disciplined and fundamentally sound…with IUs resources…I would think it’s be hard for that person to not be success at IU. There are probably dozens of coaches out there that would jump at the opportunity.
 
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CriticArisen said:
I respect your opinions but the 2003-2004 season had to be the absolute worst I have ever experienced. Completely unwatchable chaos on the floor and finished with a 14-15 record and UK beat us 80-41. It was doubly bad since RMK’s teams playing wonderful basketball were still fresh in mind.
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I might have developed a black hole in my memory bank on that season. Recency bias and all. My overarching point in this thread is I’m just sad at how it’s all dwindled away so dramatically and completely.

If I could actually remember that season, I’m sure I was pissed and ready for a real coach to take over.
 
IUNorth said:
It’s not overly necessary. Do some research. Heck, ask Coach Moren her advice. Watch a lot of games, ask friends.

I think it’s obvious after Stevens said no finally, that Dolson relied too heavily on former IU people, like Buckner. And while their intentions were probably good, they didn’t vet Woody deeply enough, or ask enough questions on what he’d actually run, how he’d manage the program, etc… Just a guess, but him being an all time great, that played for RMK, that had NBA head coaching experience…was probably enough.

Next time they need to establish very clear and strict guidelines on the style, the types of players they want, the culture, etc… And don’t even interview anyone that doesn’t fit those parameters.

Obviously you can still miss with that approach. But if you hire a successful college coach, from any level, that plays a style that will appeal to any player, and that has an established record for having teams that are disciplined and fundamentally sound…with IUs resources…I would think it’s be hard for that person to not be success at IU. There are probably dozens of coaches out there that would jump at the opportunity.
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I’ve said it over and over, if Q Buckner says it, it’s probably wrong. Great player and fan favorite, but was a horrible coach and is a horrible announcer. Ruins damn near every Pacers game. How the hell any modern day AD takes his advice seriously is a mystery.
 
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Bucket Getter said:
I might have developed a black hole in my memory bank on that season. Recency bias and all. My overarching point in this thread is I’m just sad at how it’s all dwindled away so dramatically and completely.

If I could actually remember that season, I’m sure I was pissed and ready for a real coach to take over.
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It was so traumatic that your mind has protected you by putting memory barriers in place. You are so fortunate.
 
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Bucket Getter said:
I’ve said it over and over, if Q Buckner says it, it’s probably wrong. Great player and fan favorite, but was a horrible coach and is a horrible announcer. Ruins damn near every Pacers game. How the hell any modern day AD takes his advice seriously is a mystery.
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It would take a strong and secure new AD to ignore a basketball pit bull on the Board of Trustees I believe. He used his shot with Stevens.
 
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CriticArisen said:
It would take a strong and secure new AD to ignore a basketball pit bull on the Board of Trustees I believe. He used his shot with Stevens.
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Good point. But Dolson wasn’t really new. He’s been here forever. Question: does the AD report to the board or the president?
 
IUNorth said:
I was listening to Michael Lombardi on MacAfee yesterday. He was talking about NFL franchises and their coaching searches. And one of his main points was that organizations are almost always more successful when they take some time to establish who they want to be…styles of play, culture, etc… THEN go get a coach that fits that style.

I don’t know how our ADs approached the post RMK hires…seems like Davis was an easy way out/convenience choice, Crean was the best they felt they could get in their situation, maybe same with Woody. Sampson and Archie might have been thought out a little more and somewhat style based. But obviously those were horrible IU fits.

The next time we hire someone…the AD needs to establish what kind of bball IU should play, what kind of culture they should have, and match the candidates to that.

Up tempo, modern, open, guard oriented, smart, focused, disciplined. Basketball that IU fans will appreciate. Doesn’t have to be the “good ole” RMK motion offense and man to man defense. But it should have those elements. Study the Warriors, Jay Wrights Villanova teams, Pearls Auburn teams, etc…

And don’t hire anyone that doesn’t believe in that style of ball, and that hasn’t proven they can coach it. There are lots of college coaches out there running modern stuff and having success doing it. Go find 5 of them to interview, even if a couple are lower level college, and start the rebuild.

Archie and Woodys biggest problem was they were both stubborn to ineffective AND unappealing basketball. Even in the face of failure.
Click to expand...
sounds nice... on paper. You're telling me WI decided they wanted to be a deliberate slow style defensive-minded program before hiring Bo? You get a coach who will abide by your rules (if you have any: UK) and if he wins, you're going to look like a genius and fans will love you. To the degree that a well-managed school, team or organization has the discipline to set out guidelines and conduct an intentional and deep search with a good selection process I believe they'll be more successful, but I think the last thing any school should do is to have a BOT or AD deciding how the team should play.
 
Bucket Getter said:
Good point. But Dolson wasn’t really new. He’s been here forever. Question: does the AD report to the board or the president?
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The inside source at IU that leaked it was Woodson prior to the official announcement said that QB had been a bulldozer. QB’s public statement at the time strongly supported the hire. By all indications QB used his position to actively pursue the hire of Woodson and so provided pressure rather than simply offering advice.
 
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CriticArisen said:
The inside source at IU that leaked it was Woodson prior to the official announcement said that QB had been a bulldozer. QB’s public statement at the time strongly supported the hire. By all indications QB used his position to actively pursue the hire of Woodson and so provided pressure rather than simply offering advice.
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Yep Buckner was all over this one and I never heard Buckner say one thing about Woodson can help him compete for titles. It was Woodson is a great person and my friend. This was a buddy helping out another buddy period. At least archie had real college experience. Horrible coach but that hire made way more sense than this one.
 
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It’s good to see one of our own come on and have a chance to do something that’s for the greater good,” Buckner said. “I honestly believe, the fact he’s here, it’s for the greater good. Having success, it means a great deal to a great many people.

The greater good what is Woodson some sort of prophet?
 
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kkott said:
sounds nice... on paper. You're telling me WI decided they wanted to be a deliberate slow style defensive-minded program before hiring Bo? You get a coach who will abide by your rules (if you have any: UK) and if he wins, you're going to look like a genius and fans will love you. To the degree that a well-managed school, team or organization has the discipline to set out guidelines and conduct an intentional and deep search with a good selection process I believe they'll be more successful, but I think the last thing any school should do is to have a BOT or AD deciding how the team should play.
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Huh? Yes. Remember Bennett was successful before Ryan. He’s actually EXACTLY the type of hire I’m talking about. Fits the style they’re comfortable with, proven to be successful with it as a college head coach (small school). They dramatically increased their odds of getting it right by hiring a proven successful coach that ran a system their program already had success with.

In IUs case…I’m not sure they can or should replicate RMKs system and/or culture. Rather, decide who you want to be. And with all of IUs resources, I’d aim for Kansas, UConn, Villanova type programs. Id research NBA styles of play. And I’d look for successful college coaches, at all levels, that run similar offensive and defensive sets as those target programs…AND that have disciplined teams that execute well.

I don’t know who that would preclude, but it probably would have crossed Woodson off the list.
 
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IUNorth said:
Huh? Yes. Remember Bennett was successful before Ryan. He’s actually EXACTLY the type of hire I’m talking about. Fits the style they’re comfortable with, proven to be successful with it as a college head coach (small school). They dramatically increased their odds of getting it right by hiring a proven successful coach that ran a system their program already had success with.

In IUs case…I’m not sure they can or should replicate RMKs system and/or culture. Rather, decide who you want to be. And with all of IUs resources, I’d aim for Kansas, UConn, Villanova type programs. Id research NBA styles of play. And I’d look for successful college coaches, at all levels, that run similar offensive and defensive sets as those target programs…AND that have disciplined teams that execute well.

I don’t know who that would preclude, but it probably would have crossed Woodson off the list.
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But but but…Buckner!
 
I have never met Dolson and have zero interest in defending him, but in the interest of fairness the publicly available facts strongly support the primary role of QB in this hire.

Note:
I always tell my daughters that life doesn’t have to be fair so don’t expect it to be but in this case it is something we should strive for with hope to end the seemingly endless stream of bad hires :)
 
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CriticArisen said:
I respect your opinions but the 2003-2004 season had to be the absolute worst I have ever experienced. Completely unwatchable chaos on the floor and finished with a 14-15 record and UK beat us 80-41. It was doubly bad since RMK’s teams playing wonderful basketball were still fresh in mind.
Click to expand...
(After Leach injury) That Pat Ewing Jr/Sean Kline with a bad knee front line lmao. Fireable offense right there.
 
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