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i'vegotwinners

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Even I question the ACTUAL "Intent". I was not a fan of it from day one, knowing that it would be corrupted... If that was baked in to start with.

the Patriot Act was done practically the next day after 9/11.

obviously the act was already in the desk top drawer, already fully written, just waiting for the opportunistic time to pull it out of the drawer.

but what's much worse is the total perversion of the 2017 Espionage Act, to make sure that any whistleblower who outs wrongdoing by anyone with power gets their life ruined, to deter any and all future whistleblowers from outing any wrongdoing of the powerful.

it's basically 3rd world dictator behavior.

if some whistleblower tomorrow released an irrefutable HD video with sound of the Bushes, the Clintons, Obama, Trump, Bill Barr, and the joint chiefs, all plotting a total takeover of the govt together, that treasonous whistleblower would be in big trouble, and the only one of the bunch in trouble in the slightest.
 
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Aloha Hoosier

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McCain was the nominee in a very bad year to be the Republican nominee. Romney damaged his own campaign enough without outside help.

But you probably have a point. I will never forget that town hall when NcCain politely chastised a potential voter for claiming she didn't trust Obama because he was an Arab and a Muslim. I don't know if she ended up voting for McCain, anyway, but I have little problem imagining she gleefully voted for Trump.
I know people that didn’t vote for McCain or Romney yet constantly complained about Obama being President. Those people are mostly Trumpers now and they don’t seem to understand that they helped elect the guy (Obama) they considered to be the worst choice. The same people ensured that the Republicans lost the special Senate elections in Georgia by spreading the idea that their votes wouldn’t count in Georgia. Of course this is my opinion, but I think it’s a reasonable one. A study would be nice. ;)
 
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DANC

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I didn't. I blamed a lot of the people who support Trump now who didn't vote for the Republicans running against Obama.
And you base this on.... what you think?

My reading comprehension is fine. You can't discuss anything today without mentioning Trump because you are so convinced he's the devil.

And, if you can't blame Trump directly, you blame his supporters.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Margaritaville
I know people that didn’t vote for McCain or Romney yet constantly complained about Obama being President. Those people are mostly Trumpers now and they don’t seem to understand that they helped elect the guy (Obama) they considered to be the worst choice. The same people ensured that the Republicans lost the special Senate elections in Georgia by spreading the idea that their votes wouldn’t count in Georgia. Of course this is my opinion, but I think it’s a reasonable one. A study would be nice. ;)
I suspect the voters you are talking about merely helped Obama win by more than he otherwise would have. Neither 2008 nor 2012 were particularly close elections. Heck, Trump only got 2 million more votes in 2016 than Romney did four years earlier. Even with 2 million more votes, Romney very likely would have lost, unless those votes were particularly heavily distributed among Florida, Ohio, Virginia, and Colorado. Maybe the first two would have flipped, but it's unlikely all four of them would have.

As for Georgia, those races were close enough to not discount anything, but do you really think Trump voters stayed home rather than vote for Perdue or Loeffler? Sure, turnout was lower for the runoff than for the Presidential vote, but the drop for both Dems and Repubs was comparable. I do think a study, if it were possible, would be interesting.
 
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mcmurtry66

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Damn this gold cup final looks like a big ole Fing spreader event. Mexicans packed in like sardines and outnumbering Americans 5 to 1 per usual
 
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IUCrazy2

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Mar 7, 2004
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I didn't. I blamed a lot of the people who support Trump now who didn't vote for the Republicans running against Obama.
I voted for both of those guys....that being said, I don't like the idea of blaming voters for not getting out to vote for a guy that does not represent them. McCain and Romney lost their elections by not making a good case to the American people to vote for them. Maverick had a history of being kind of an asshole (yeah, yeah military hero and all that, but he was a dick at times) who appeared to mostly enjoy being that a-hole when he was Maverick-ly voting against his own party. And Romney was the literal embodiment of the type of person those voters who stayed home were becoming tired of. At a certain point it becomes incumbent upon the party to represent their voters. The GOP, by and large, still has not figured that out.

There is not enough of the electorate left to support Paul Ryan Republicanism because the Paul Ryan Republicans let their high dollar donors sell off the country piece by piece. Yeah, the stock market is doing great and (after massive bailouts) the financial sector is back to trading money and making bets on a system that is held up by the U.S. Treasury's printing press, but those silly voters who can't see that voting for the GOP based on fights they just never seem able to put up are the ones at fault. Eventually the argument that the other guy is terrible so let's do what he wants, only more slowly, tends to turn people off who are truly looking for an alternative.

I voted for them but McCain and Romney sucked (In my opinion).
 

twenty02

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I voted for both of those guys....that being said, I don't like the idea of blaming voters for not getting out to vote for a guy that does not represent them. McCain and Romney lost their elections by not making a good case to the American people to vote for them. Maverick had a history of being kind of an asshole (yeah, yeah military hero and all that, but he was a dick at times) who appeared to mostly enjoy being that a-hole when he was Maverick-ly voting against his own party. And Romney was the literal embodiment of the type of person those voters who stayed home were becoming tired of. At a certain point it becomes incumbent upon the party to represent their voters. The GOP, by and large, still has not figured that out.

There is not enough of the electorate left to support Paul Ryan Republicanism because the Paul Ryan Republicans let their high dollar donors sell off the country piece by piece. Yeah, the stock market is doing great and (after massive bailouts) the financial sector is back to trading money and making bets on a system that is held up by the U.S. Treasury's printing press, but those silly voters who can't see that voting for the GOP based on fights they just never seem able to put up are the ones at fault. Eventually the argument that the other guy is terrible so let's do what he wants, only more slowly, tends to turn people off who are truly looking for an alternative.

I voted for them but McCain and Romney sucked (In my opinion).

You think they sucked because they lost. They lost because they were running against Obama, who had a basically unbeatable coalition.

But you've drank the populist koolaid and are a joke as a conservative. Run either against Hillary and see who wins.
 

twenty02

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Many of today's Trump supporters voted for Obama. It makes my head hurt to even contemplate that, but the evidence is clear.

Low information voters are a bipartisan affair. Fk Trump. He won a split primary vote getting about a 35% ceiling. He lost the popular vote both times, the second time by a historic margin for an incumbent. In 2016, he got the same amount of votes that GWB got in fkn 2004. His big "win' was an extreme statistical anomaly, garnering only 7.5m more votes than Reagan achieved in freaking 1984, and running against one of the most unpopular politicians in the country.

He had the worst public approval ratings for a 1st term president in history. And then got his doors blown off by a very mediocre candidate in his 2nd try.

Trump is a paper tiger. His coattails resulted in an amazing string of losses from everyone he got near. Including somehow losing a Senate race in fkn Alabama, and three times in Georgia. Losing the House, Losing the Senate.

Regardless what Crazy (aka IGW in paragraph form) has to say, his brand and politics is toxic shit and any so called Republican that wants to continue down this death march requires a lobotomy.
 

IU_Hickory

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Low information voters are a bipartisan affair. Fk Trump. He won a split primary vote getting about a 35% ceiling. He lost the popular vote both times, the second time by a historic margin for an incumbent. In 2016, he got the same amount of votes that GWB got in fkn 2004. His big "win' was an extreme statistical anomaly, garnering only 7.5m more votes than Reagan achieved in freaking 1984, and running against one of the most unpopular politicians in the country.

He had the worst public approval ratings for a 1st term president in history. And then got his doors blown off by a very mediocre candidate in his 2nd try.

Trump is a paper tiger. His coattails resulted in an amazing string of losses from everyone he got near. Including somehow losing a Senate race in fkn Alabama, and three times in Georgia. Losing the House, Losing the Senate.

Regardless what Crazy (aka IGW in paragraph form) has to say, his brand and politics is toxic shit and any so called Republican that wants to continue down this death march requires a lobotomy.
igw in paragraph form. Now that is a burn that is comedy gold
 

Aloha Hoosier

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Aug 30, 2001
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I voted for both of those guys....that being said, I don't like the idea of blaming voters for not getting out to vote for a guy that does not represent them. McCain and Romney lost their elections by not making a good case to the American people to vote for them. Maverick had a history of being kind of an asshole (yeah, yeah military hero and all that, but he was a dick at times) who appeared to mostly enjoy being that a-hole when he was Maverick-ly voting against his own party. And Romney was the literal embodiment of the type of person those voters who stayed home were becoming tired of. At a certain point it becomes incumbent upon the party to represent their voters. The GOP, by and large, still has not figured that out.

There is not enough of the electorate left to support Paul Ryan Republicanism because the Paul Ryan Republicans let their high dollar donors sell off the country piece by piece. Yeah, the stock market is doing great and (after massive bailouts) the financial sector is back to trading money and making bets on a system that is held up by the U.S. Treasury's printing press, but those silly voters who can't see that voting for the GOP based on fights they just never seem able to put up are the ones at fault. Eventually the argument that the other guy is terrible so let's do what he wants, only more slowly, tends to turn people off who are truly looking for an alternative.

I voted for them but McCain and Romney sucked (In my opinion).
You wouldn't be one of the people I'm speaking of. I'm speaking of the people that spent 8 years complaining about President Obama while at the same time saying they didn't vote for McCain or Romney because they weren't their idea of perfect Republicans. Then they vote for Trump who apparently is the perfect Republican for them (RINO for me). I know these people. Lots of them. Fine if they didn't like McCain and Romney, but if they hated Obama, they had a choice of imperfect Republicans (and there is no perfect Republican) and didn't make it. There complaints don't mean so much to me because of that.
 

IUCrazy2

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You think they sucked because they lost. They lost because they were running against Obama, who had a basically unbeatable coalition.

But you've drank the populist koolaid and are a joke as a conservative. Run either against Hillary and see who wins.
No, not because they lost. I told you why they were not strong candidates in the post.

As for the joke of a conservative, under the definition that you would have a conservative be under, yeah, not part of that crew anymore. I don't think that conserving the financial sector while writing off blue collar workers to China and Mexico has been worth while. Call that populist or whatever, but to me one of the most conservative things you can do is have a situation where people who want to work have the opportunity to do so while also making a living off that work. Squeezing workers so that their jobs leave "because it is cheaper" to do the work in Mexico or China and then turning around and passing the costs of all that lost work to our children in the form of government provided benefits on the nation's treasury printing presses is a pretty damn stupid way to do things. But hey, you are doing well on moving that paper around, so "yay conservatism".

Populism is almost always a response to poor governance. This is a poorly governed country. The GOP has had their hand in poorly governing the country and anyone that does not see that is nuts. And no, it wasn't just since Trump that the party has gone off the rails.
 

IUCrazy2

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You wouldn't be one of the people I'm speaking of. I'm speaking of the people that spent 8 years complaining about President Obama while at the same time saying they didn't vote for McCain or Romney because they weren't their idea of perfect Republicans. Then they vote for Trump who apparently is the perfect Republican for them (RINO for me). I know these people. Lots of them. Fine if they didn't like McCain and Romney, but if they hated Obama, they had a choice of imperfect Republicans (and there is no perfect Republican) and didn't make it. There complaints don't mean so much to me because of that.
Fair enough, I don't think Trump is a perfect Republican by any means either, I do like where he drove some of the conversations though. I don't think Paul Ryan Republicanism is right for the moment. Not as the dominant position. I think pragmatically that the pendulum is pulling back to the center in that party. That is where the voters are and that is where we have a need. Yeah, it is nice that folks like Twenty02 can do well in the market, but him doing well is not necessarily a good bellwether on the rest of the country.
 
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twenty02

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Fair enough, I don't think Trump is a perfect Republican by any means either, I do like where he drove some of the conversations though. I don't think Paul Ryan Republicanism is right for the moment. Not as the dominant position. I think pragmatically that the pendulum is pulling back to the center in that party. That is where the voters are and that is where we have a need. Yeah, it is nice that folks like Twenty02 can do well in the market, but him doing well is not necessarily a good bellwether on the rest of the country.

If "blue collar" workers can't make it in this economy, then they are brain dead. You can make $15/hr at the car wash doing a mindless job. You can make basically limitless money in any construction trade. I've been waiting 4 months to get someone competent to remodel a small bathroom. Building a new home is cost prohibitive to much of the country due to labor shortage, yet you don't want any immigrants coming in to do any work. So everyone is hurt, other than the small % of people here that actually want to do labor.

Nobody is opening a textile plant or a plastic toy factory in this country, regardless of anyone's policy. Mindless work from 50+ years ago was always going away.

People selling cars are making more money than I am. A good sales mgr at a Toyota dealership made $400k last year. You seem to be arguing policy points from a decade ago.
 
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Spartans9312

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Nov 11, 2004
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Fair enough, I don't think Trump is a perfect Republican by any means either, I do like where he drove some of the conversations though. I don't think Paul Ryan Republicanism is right for the moment. Not as the dominant position. I think pragmatically that the pendulum is pulling back to the center in that party. That is where the voters are and that is where we have a need. Yeah, it is nice that folks like Twenty02 can do well in the market, but him doing well is not necessarily a good bellwether on the rest of the country.
Until we eliminate the vast amount of "assistance" , in all of its many forms, the middle class is going to struggle.

If, in days gone by, people that would have been sent to Muscatatuk...these folks should qualify for all the assistance necessary.

99% of the others getting "assistance" need to figure this game out.

The formula is readily available but the government needs to get out of the way for the formula to succeed.

I challenge anyone that disagrees to apply for a pharmacy technician license. It will only take about 2 weeks for the most staunch doubters to come around.

Then you can quit the job...that's what everyone else does because dealing with the "entitled" public sucks.
 
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Cortez88

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Until we eliminate the vast amount of "assistance" , in all of its many forms, the middle class is going to struggle.

If, in days gone by, people that would have been sent to Muscatatuk...these folks should qualify for all the assistance necessary.

99% of the others getting "assistance" need to figure this game out.

The formula is readily available but the government needs to get out of the way for the formula to succeed.

I challenge anyone that disagrees to apply for a pharmacy technician license. It will only take about 2 weeks for the most staunch doubters to come around.

Then you can quit the job...that's what everyone else does because dealing with the "entitled" public sucks.
Can you imagine what it must be like to be a teacher? The entitled parent ratchets things up a whole other level.