Mitch Daniels

[Marvin the Martian]

Daniels have an interview on WIBC saying he did not see Purdue having in class classes in the fall. You can Google it. Within a week of that interview, he switched. I wonder why?

In USAtoday, he is quoted as saying that there is "zero risk" to college age adults. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...0-purdue-university-mitch-daniels/3018469001/

Of course that is wrong, both that there is zero risk to people 20 and that all college students are 20.

Further, I keep pointing out we still KNOW very little about COVID. One of the rings we do not KNOW is, is there long term damage to people recovered from COVID among those with mild or even asymptomatic cases.

This LA Times article points out that some in China with "mild" cases have shown damage to internal organs that were still noticeable after COVID cleared up.
https://www.latimes.com/science/sto...tion-can-do-lasting-damage-to-the-heart-liver

And this WaPo story suggests that mildly symptomatic people in their 30s and 40s are having strokes caused by COVID (and is a basis for believing COVID deaths are undercounted.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/strokes-coronavirus-young-patients/

I get Purdue WANTS to reopen, I WANT IU to reopen. But has anyone seen data showing there is no long term damage to the invincibles? I have yet to find studies on that. Without that data, how does one make the call? If a university opens up, a breakout is almost certain. If it is later found there are long term repercussions, anyone want to guess if the university could survive the lawsuit?

 

[UncleMark]

In USAtoday, he is quoted as saying that there is "zero risk" to college age adults. [...]
Of course that is wrong, both that there is zero risk to people 20 and that all college students are 20.

Lets just say he's right, for argument's sake. That still doesn't address the question of students as carriers. Old profs and old IT support personnel and old cafeteria workers and old librarians would still be at risk.

This is going to be a tough needle to thread. Barring a vaccine becoming widely available (for the higher risk people, if not universally), there are going to be tradeoffs made. A pre-COVID world where there is no risk to anyone from this virus is a long long way off, and I don't think our civil society can wait indefinitely.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Lets just say he's right, for argument's sake. That still doesn't address the question of students as carriers. Old profs and old IT support personnel and old cafeteria workers and old librarians would still be at risk.

This is going to be a tough needle to thread. Barring a vaccine becoming widely available (for the higher risk people, if not universally), there are going to be tradeoffs made. A pre-COVID world where there is no risk to anyone from this virus is a long long way off, and I don't think our civil society can wait indefinitely.

The analogy I come up with, we are on a deserted mountain road on a moonless night and our headlights have gone out. Some want to hop back in and drive the 45 mph speed limit elst we be late to our destination. Others say we can drive 30, others 20, some 10 mph. And some say we have to stay until light or completed repairs.

I really have no idea what speed, if any, is safe. I think most of us agree that big sports gatherings are out. I think most might accept that Georgia opening gyms seems rash. But beyond that, little consensus.

I do not know how a university can run without at risk faculty and staff. Will they just say, "thank you for your service, you have been replaced"?

 

[outside shooter]

Old profs and old IT support personnel and old cafeteria workers and old librarians would still be at risk.

They need to suck it up and take one for the team.

Ride the Trump train.

Now with new train cars added for passengers in caskets.

 

[Spartans9312]

The analogy I come up with, we are on a deserted mountain road on a moonless night and our headlights have gone out. Some want to hop back in and drive the 45 mph speed limit elst we be late to our destination. Others say we can drive 30, others 20, some 10 mph. And some say we have to stay until light or completed repairs.

I really have no idea what speed, if any, is safe. I think most of us agree that big sports gatherings are out. I think most might accept that Georgia opening gyms seems rash. But beyond that, little consensus.

I do not know how a university can run without at risk faculty and staff. Will they just say, "thank you for your service, you have been replaced"?

How do we move forward?
At some point, the powers to be are going to have to answer that question.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Daniels have an interview on WIBC saying he did not see Purdue having in class classes in the fall. You can Google it. Within a week of that interview, he switched. I wonder why?

In USAtoday, he is quoted as saying that there is "zero risk" to college age adults. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...0-purdue-university-mitch-daniels/3018469001/

Of course that is wrong, both that there is zero risk to people 20 and that all college students are 20.

Further, I keep pointing out we still KNOW very little about COVID. One of the rings we do not KNOW is, is there long term damage to people recovered from COVID among those with mild or even asymptomatic cases.

This LA Times article points out that some in China with "mild" cases have shown damage to internal organs that were still noticeable after COVID cleared up.
https://www.latimes.com/science/sto...tion-can-do-lasting-damage-to-the-heart-liver

And this WaPo story suggests that mildly symptomatic people in their 30s and 40s are having strokes caused by COVID (and is a basis for believing COVID deaths are undercounted.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/strokes-coronavirus-young-patients/

I get Purdue WANTS to reopen, I WANT IU to reopen. But has anyone seen data showing there is no long term damage to the invincibles? I have yet to find studies on that. Without that data, how does one make the call? If a university opens up, a breakout is almost certain. If it is later found there are long term repercussions, anyone want to guess if the university could survive the lawsuit?

What about the staff?

What about their parents and grandparents?

What about the Wlaf community?

I have worked with Mitch on several occasions and like him a lot, but he is getting hammered for this.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

What about the staff?

What about their parents and grandparents?

What about the Wlaf community?

I have worked with Mitch on several occasions and like him a lot, but he is getting hammered for this.

That quick turnaround in one week makes me wonder if some large donor(s) applied pressure after the WIBC interview.

 

[UncleMark]

The analogy I come up with, we are on a deserted mountain road on a moonless night and our headlights have gone out. Some want to hop back in and drive the 45 mph speed limit elst we be late to our destination. Others say we can drive 30, others 20, some 10 mph. And some say we have to stay until light or completed repairs.

I guess it would depend on whether or not there are guardrails, and what speed would be more than they could handle. The weakest guardrail allowing you to proceed would be having the health care infrastructure in place and available. We seem to have that one; maybe the minimum speed is warranted. A better guardrail would be proven treatment regimens that minimize the consequences of infection. Not there yet, not at all, but there appears to be some improvement in care outcomes -- the health care providers are learning on the job. Maybe you could go a little faster if [more? most?] people could be cured after the fact. Of course, a vaccine would allow you to barrel down the road, since you wouldn't go off it. Heck, you wouldn't need any guardrails at all.

 

[Stuffshot]

Lets just say he's right, for argument's sake. That still doesn't address the question of students as carriers. Old profs and old IT support personnel and old cafeteria workers and old librarians would still be at risk.

This is going to be a tough needle to thread. Barring a vaccine becoming widely available (for the higher risk people, if not universally), there are going to be tradeoffs made. A pre-COVID world where there is no risk to anyone from this virus is a long long way off, and I don't think our civil society can wait indefinitely.

As well as 71-year-old college presidents/wannabe Hells' Angels:

He'd better be careful or he'll get Boris Johnsoned by the virus.

 

[Charlesroast]

I tried to find President Daniel’s comment that fall on campus classes were unlikely. All I found, after considerable digging was this a comment in this reddit post indicating the WIBC “headline” was misleading, and WIBC had removed the story and apologized. If I didn’t dig far enough could someone provide a link?





I did find the message from President Daniels to the Purdue community that is apparently the basis for various subsequent opinion pieces which provides context and more precise wording than the USAToday article.


https://www.purdue.edu/president/me...474.390657643.1587920823-268077577.1587920823


In keeping with President Daniel’s approach to decision making I also found this:


https://coronavirus.purdue.edu/safecampus-taskforce/


And a personal opinion. I believe Purdue under the leadership of President Daniels is in the right place as of April 26, with regard to being prepared for the start of a fall semester in late August.


For those adamantly opposed to the course of action President Daniel’s is presently pursuing, I would ask what would you suggest would be a better course of action at this time.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

In keeping with President Daniel’s approach to decision making I also found this:


https://coronavirus.purdue.edu/safecampus-taskforce/


And a personal opinion. I believe Purdue under the leadership of President Daniels is in the right place as of April 26, with regard to being prepared for the start of a fall semester in late August.


For those adamantly opposed to the course of action President Daniel’s is presently pursuing, I would ask what would you suggest would be a better course of action at this time?

**

As near as I can tell, most universities are planning for opening, closing, and everything in between. It is just the speed that Daniels went from his WIBC interview that he did not think Purdue would reopen to saying it would most likely reopen. What changed in a week.

I know IU is having the same debate. I do not know how 45,000 kids come to campus and 65 year old faculty are safe. Someone may have an answer. I have heard of online classes but in person labs, but who teaches the labs?

There are a lot of people looking into it. The only thing I am certain of is it will not be easy.

 

[Charlesroast]

As near as I can tell, most universities are planning for opening, closing, and everything in between. It is just the speed that Daniels went from his WIBC interview that he did not think Purdue would reopen to saying it would most likely reopen. What changed in a week.

I know IU is having the same debate. I do not know how 45,000 kids come to campus and 65 year old faculty are safe. Someone may have an answer. I have heard of online classes but in person labs, but who teaches the labs?

There are a lot of people looking into it. The only thing I am certain of is it will not be easy.

 

[Charlesroast]

I apologize, I had to edit my response to include several other points that I had initially failed to include. First among those is the reddit link below that includes a comment the headline was misleading, and WIBC subsequently apologized for the and removed article.

 

[Spartans9312]

As near as I can tell, most universities are planning for opening, closing, and everything in between. It is just the speed that Daniels went from his WIBC interview that he did not think Purdue would reopen to saying it would most likely reopen. What changed in a week.

I know IU is having the same debate. I do not know how 45,000 kids come to campus and 65 year old faculty are safe. Someone may have an answer. I have heard of online classes but in person labs, but who teaches the labs?

There are a lot of people looking into it. The only thing I am certain of is it will not be easy.

If I'm 65 then I'm retiring.
But, that's just me

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I apologize, I had to edit my response to include several other points that I had initially failed to include. First among those is the reddit link below that includes a comment the headline was misleading, and WIBC subsequently apologized for the and removed article.

View embedded media

Strange, I cannot find the interview itself. The local station played the answer. Ok really recall Daniels' answer was that he could not "see" in person classes happening. But it was the news I wake up to and could easily be wrong.

 

[UncleMark]

If I'm 65 then I'm retiring.
But, that's just me

Another Taker.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

If I'm 65 then I'm retiring.
But, that's just me

I do not know about Purdue, IU faculty seem to never retire.

As a near 60 year old staff member, retiring is not an option but being around 45,000 kids does not sound appealing.

 

[Spartans9312]

I do not know about Purdue, IU faculty seem to never retire.

As a near 60 year old staff member, retiring is not an option but being around 45,000 kids does not sound appealing.

Being around 45,000 kids is never appealing

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Being around 45,000 kids is never appealing

Especially PUkes.

 

[IUclover]

The analogy I come up with, we are on a deserted mountain road on a moonless night and our headlights have gone out. Some want to hop back in and drive the 45 mph speed limit elst we be late to our destination. Others say we can drive 30, others 20, some 10 mph. And some say we have to stay until light or completed repairs.

I really have no idea what speed, if any, is safe. I think most of us agree that big sports gatherings are out. I think most might accept that Georgia opening gyms seems rash. But beyond that, little consensus.

I do not know how a university can run without at risk faculty and staff. Will they just say, "thank you for your service, you have been replaced"?

I work in higher ed that just had a virtual town hall with some similar questions submitted. As of now, I don’t see anyone being furloughed or laid off. If this stretches to Spring, I think that will happen. My position is pretty essential from a compliance standpoint but there are others in our office that may not be considered essential.

Given that we work in higher ed and a public institution, I’ll be interested to see if higher leadership takes a significant pay cut. Overall, they are essential in a way but they don’t necessarily fulfill daily student operations. This may sound crazy but if you’re making above $125k, you can manage a pay cut. We work at a public institution and that should be an expectation. Our university President just voluntarily took a 10% pay cut but he’s still making $800k. If he wants to set a standard if it comes to that time, he needs to set a standard at a lower salary.

This will impact smaller schools more but I see medium-large schools pushing for more online options. This still requires a lot of admin work in the background but that could potentially be outsourced to anyone who wants to work remotely - I’m already looking into this for more income. Also, the overall maintenance fees of running a university, like custodial, energy, etc., will be significantly lower so that may save some jobs, which isn’t good for those services.

And we have most likely the worst Sec of Education who spends most of her time defending for-profit schools so that won’t help, unless we vote for someone or a party that cares about education.

 

[UncleMark]

I do not know about Purdue, IU faculty seem to never retire.

As a near 60 year old staff member, retiring is not an option but being around 45,000 kids does not sound appealing.

You know how to tell if you're old? During Freshman Orientation week, you're not checking out the coeds, you're checking out their moms.

 

[Univee2]

You know how to tell if you're old? During Freshman Orientation week, you're not checking out the coeds, you're checking out their moms.

You can't check out both?

A well-turned-out leg knows no age.

 

[IUINSB]

For those adamantly opposed to the course of action President Daniel’s is presently pursuing, I would ask what would you suggest would be a better course of action at this time.

I would suggest burning the effing place to the ground, then nuke it.

 

[Cortez88]

How do we move forward?
At some point, the powers to be are going to have to answer that question.

This is a really insightful article. This highlights the issue - the economy is shut down because of the pandemic, not because of stay at home orders. You could lift every stay at home order tomorrow and you will still be facing the fact that we are in the middle of a global pandemic with no vaccine.

Anyone in an impacted industry trying to formulate reopening plans knows the difficulty. How do you reopen safely? Will customers come? At what point is it not worth reopening with no revenue? There is no light switch here.

We Cannot “Reopen” America

https://thebulwark.com/we-cannot-reopen-america/?amp&__twitter_impression=true

 

[Marvin the Martian]

This is a really insightful article. This highlights the issue - the economy is shut down because of the pandemic, not because of stay at home orders. You could lift every stay at home order tomorrow and you will still be facing the fact that we are in the middle of a global pandemic with no vaccine.

Anyone in an impacted industry trying to formulate reopening plans knows the difficulty. How do you reopen safely? Will customers come? At what point is it not worth reopening with no revenue? There is no light switch here.

We Cannot “Reopen” America

https://thebulwark.com/we-cannot-reopen-america/?amp&__twitter_impression=true

That is a good article. And universities face that problem. It is clear that students do not like online classes, and I get that. If I were taking a really hard class online, I'd be most unhappy. I need the sensory input of being in person to really concentrate.

So universities want to reopen. But most American universities bring in a lot of foreign students. I doubt most of them want to come to America now, or if they will even be allowed to. On top of that, I'm not sure a lot out of state students want to pack up and come to Purdue or IU if they believe there is a serious risk they will have to pack up and leave on a moments notice in event of wave 2.

It seems universities will be choosing from bad alternatives. But so will business and government. Up and down the line the new normal is going to be way different than the old normal. The scary part, right now no one KNOWS that there will be a vaccine, an effective treatment, or if antibodies confer immunity.

Even scarier, terrorists now have a perfect demonstration of the most effective weapon.

 

[Spartans9312]

This is a really insightful article. This highlights the issue - the economy is shut down because of the pandemic, not because of stay at home orders. You could lift every stay at home order tomorrow and you will still be facing the fact that we are in the middle of a global pandemic with no vaccine.

Anyone in an impacted industry trying to formulate reopening plans knows the difficulty. How do you reopen safely? Will customers come? At what point is it not worth reopening with no revenue? There is no light switch here.

We Cannot “Reopen” America

https://thebulwark.com/we-cannot-reopen-america/?amp&__twitter_impression=true

if stay at home orders are lifted and the government money stops coming in these impacted businesses are going to start to re-open.
It is time for some areas with low incidence to start to try to get back to some sense of "normalcy".

 

[Cortez88]

if stay at home orders are lifted and the government money stops coming in these impacted businesses are going to start to re-open.
It is time for some areas with low incidence to start to try to get back to some sense of "normalcy".

I don’t think you read the article.

 

[Spartans9312]

I don’t think you read the article.

I don't disagree with the majority of the article.
Do stay at home orders matter?
The article seems to imply that they do not matter.

 

[Cortez88]

I don't disagree with the majority of the article.
Do stay at home orders matter?
The article seems to imply that they do not matter.

That’s not what the article says. The article doesn’t evaluate the orders on public health, which is where the orders absolutely matter.

 

[Spartans9312]

That’s not what the article says. The article doesn’t evaluate the orders on public health, which is where the orders absolutely matter.

Stay at home orders don't matter according to your post that links the article.

 

[Sope Creek]

If I'm 65 then I'm retiring.
But, that's just me

I am and I ain't . . . not just yet anyways. I've got this year and all of next calendar year before I can retire and earn unlimited income while drawing social security. And I might not draw social security anyway . . . because the return is too good at 8% per year from here on out until I turn 70, and also because who the hell knows whether it'll even be there when I do retire.

 

[Sope Creek]

The scary part, right now no one KNOWS that there will be a vaccine, an effective treatment, or if antibodies confer immunity.

The WHO came out and said there's no evidence to suggest that antibodies obtained from having recovered from COVID-19 confer any level of immunity.

https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...covered-covid-19-patients-are-immune-who-says

 

[UncleMark]

Anyone in an impacted industry trying to formulate reopening plans knows the difficulty. How do you reopen safely? Will customers come? At what point is it not worth reopening with no revenue? There is no light switch here.

Exactly. My company makes products for large corporate events and other group gatherings. Our business had gone to shit long before the orders from on high came down. We had gone to a four day week -- and even that was too many manhours chasing too little work -- and then closed down altogether for the month of April. Assuming Holcomb's order is lifted Friday midnight as scheduled, that doesn't mean we'll all of a sudden be back to producing products for large corporate events and other group functions. That said, we're being told that we're reopening on Monday 4th, and that a 40 hour week is "promised". For how long? I doubt it can be sustained. [My suspicion is that the owner was able to get a PPP grant; can't imagine him making that "promise" otherwise.]

 

[Stuffshot]

I am and I ain't . . . not just yet anyways. I've got this year and all of next calendar year before I can retire and earn unlimited income while drawing social security. And I might not draw social security anyway . . . because the return is too good at 8% per year from here on out until I turn 70, and also because who the hell knows whether it'll even be there when I do retire.

On the other hand, if you decide to wait till a future date to begin drawing social security benefits, "who the hell knows whether [you'll] even be there when [you] do [decide to] retire."

Remember: every year you delay accepting the benefits in order to claim the 8% annual increase in benefits, you have one fewer year to live. So, delaying the receipt of those benefits does not actually increase the total benefits by 8 percent.

But there are ways a delay can increase the amount of your benefits that your spouse would receive after you're gone ( if you have a spouse that outlives you). Maybe that applies to your situation.

 

[Hoosier_Hack]

Daniels have an interview on WIBC saying he did not see Purdue having in class classes in the fall. You can Google it. Within a week of that interview, he switched. I wonder why?

In USAtoday, he is quoted as saying that there is "zero risk" to college age adults. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...0-purdue-university-mitch-daniels/3018469001/

Of course that is wrong, both that there is zero risk to people 20 and that all college students are 20.

Further, I keep pointing out we still KNOW very little about COVID. One of the rings we do not KNOW is, is there long term damage to people recovered from COVID among those with mild or even asymptomatic cases.

This LA Times article points out that some in China with "mild" cases have shown damage to internal organs that were still noticeable after COVID cleared up.
https://www.latimes.com/science/sto...tion-can-do-lasting-damage-to-the-heart-liver

And this WaPo story suggests that mildly symptomatic people in their 30s and 40s are having strokes caused by COVID (and is a basis for believing COVID deaths are undercounted.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/strokes-coronavirus-young-patients/

I get Purdue WANTS to reopen, I WANT IU to reopen. But has anyone seen data showing there is no long term damage to the invincibles? I have yet to find studies on that. Without that data, how does one make the call? If a university opens up, a breakout is almost certain. If it is later found there are long term repercussions, anyone want to guess if the university could survive the lawsuit?

As far as lawsuits, I’d say no chance. People still have a choice to attend or not too. We are opening up. You don’t have to participate.

 

[Sope Creek]

On the other hand, if you decide to wait till a future date to begin drawing social security benefits, "who the hell knows whether [you'll] even be there when [you] do [decide to] retire."

Remember: every year you delay accepting the benefits in order to claim the 8% annual increase in benefits, you have one fewer year to live. So, delaying the receipt of those benefits does not actually increase the total benefits by 8 percent.

But there are ways a delay can increase the amount of your benefits that your spouse would receive after you're gone ( if you have a spouse that outlives you). Maybe that applies to your situation.

Yeah, those are the considerations. The spousal unit isn't eligible to receive any of my social security benefits because she has a separate governmental retirement program and hasn't contributed to social security . . . so she's SOL on my benefits.

The good/bad news for me personally is that I have significant longevity in my family - a great-grandmother who lived to 98 on my father's side and loads of relatives who've lived to 90+ on my mother's side, including my mother, who is 95 currently and ready to invest in a new iPad Pro so she can waste even more electrons not closing any open internet searches . . .

. . . so I'm thinking that living a long-time is something I need to plan for, and I'm gonna need all the help I can get when skilled nursing care is $25,000+ a month . . .

. . . besides, I can still work and pay my bills. Why not do that, hang with some younger folks and learn something new, plus teach some younger lawyers/business people what I've learned over the years in the process? Currently I find enough time to get in the woods every day . . . when the spousal unit retires and we're ready to travel, sure it'll be time to retire . . . IF traveling isn't nixed with the coronavirus or other pandemic . . . .

 

[Marvin the Martian]

As far as lawsuits, I’d say no chance. People still have a choice to attend or not too. We are opening up. You don’t have to participate.

I will let the lawyers answer, but if you Google "can my business be sued for covid" you will find a lot of law firms saying "probably". Largely speaking you cannot put people in harm even if the know the risk. A prime example are mines, just telling miners there is no safety equipment does not mean they or their estates cannot sue you.

 

[hoosboot]

I will let the lawyers answer, but if you Google "can my business be sued for covid" you will find a lot of law firms saying "probably". Largely speaking you cannot put people in harm even if the know the risk. A prime example are mines, just telling miners there is no safety equipment does not mean they or their estates cannot sue you.

Don't worry, I gave Hack a "Participation Trophy" despite his poor effort to soften the blow of being wrong...again.

 

[Sope Creek]

I will let the lawyers answer, but if you Google "can my business be sued for covid" you will find a lot of law firms saying "probably". Largely speaking you cannot put people in harm even if the know the risk. A prime example are mines, just telling miners there is no safety equipment does not mean they or their estates cannot sue you.

Big Business loves coronavirus immunity . . . that is, immunity from liability related to COVID-19. They're all jealous of the gun manufacturers' immunity from liability for gun-related injuries . . . .

https://qz.com/1843873/us-businesses-wants-immunity-from-coronavirus-lawsuits/

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Big Business loves coronavirus immunity . . . that is, immunity from liability related to COVID-19. They're all jealous of the gun manufacturers' immunity from liability for gun-related injuries . . . .

https://qz.com/1843873/us-businesses-wants-immunity-from-coronavirus-lawsuits/

That is a discussion the country should have, but my concern would be companies using immunity to intentionally fail to do due diligence. No need to buy masks for workers, we have immunity.