Mitch Daniels gets it

INRanger27

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It's still a losers bet as Lives > a job. Plus the govt basically subsidized it.

The economy held together and the market took off. There was no recession.

I probably have the same attitude as many had with lives. If a business didn't survive, that sucked but it probably wasn't surviving anyway.

Too your point, once we started getting our hands around it we should of had a better recovery plan I guess.

Still it might have seemed like forever but it was essentially a little over a year. Unemployment is now around 6% and expected to keep shrinking.

Weak reply by me I know but if I'm erroring on jobs vs health, I'm sacrificing jobs.

Plus I'd like to know two things....what jobs got hit the hardest (guessing entry level service) and was that due to govt action or because we were fighting a pandemic because the lib tard like myself, we weren't going out in it.
It’s not just entry level service jobs - this is the key difference in how liberals think vs conservatives. I’m more concerned about the small business owner who provides a service and taxes into a local economy and provides jobs for the community. I of course care about the worker but the biggest victim in an over-aggressive shutdown is the business owner. They’ve dumped lots of capital into the business only to have politicians ruin it. That’s the tragedy.
 

INRanger27

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Sorry answering twice.

When did we know it wasn't the black death?

I mean we had a national security risk in mid October as the President had to be airlifted to the hospital and everyone around him basically got a pretty bad case of it.

That wasn't that long ago.
The Black Death didn’t target old and fat people. COVID does. Trump is old and fat.
 

CO. Hoosier

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There is no way of knowing that. The original Ford study that showed Hydroxy worked is a prime example. There were selections as to who could benefit from hydroxy, the sickest patients were not necessarily deemed worth giving it to. Hydroxy patients were far more likely to be given steroids than non-hydroxy, steroids were later proven to work. So at the end of the Ford study, they showed Hydroxy patients survived. What they really showed was something else.

1-2% of hydroxy patients develop retina problems within 5 years. For healthier Americans that is as high or higher risk than COVID was.
Why are you liberals so consistently strident about hydroxy? It’s basically harmless and
millions take it all the time. Many PCP‘s think it is useful and dispensed to early onset outpatients. They saw patient improvement. Their professional judgment is worth something.
 
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ovaltine

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If you’re wrong, it cost millions of people their jobs. That’s not something to laugh at over a beer.

Again I’m not playing armchair QB. Trump should’ve responded more quickly. Fauci should’ve been more consistent at the beginning. But once it became clear it wasn’t the Black Death, we should’ve snapped to our senses. And we didn’t. So that Trump would lose.
You’re a good poster, but Trump lost himself when he started lying ..... pretty much from the beginning of the pandemic, and then he tried cannibalizing anyone he thought he could throw in harm‘s way.

There’s bad leadership, then there’s cowardly leadership. He was a coward. He did a really nice job accelerating the vaccine development programs, but pretty much everything else was a guy flailing around for a life raft.
 

Marvin the Martian

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Why are you liberals so consistently strident about hydroxy? It’s basically harmless and
millions take it all the time. Many PCP‘s think it is useful and dispensed to early onset outpatients. They saw patient improvement. Their professional judgment is worth something.
For generations people went to doctors with viral diseases. Doctors, knowing that antibiotics did not work, still prescribed antibiotics. They did this for one of two reasons, 1) I was often told "just in case a bacterial infection develops" 2) patients wanted/demanded a treatment.

Read above and think of opiod over prescription. If all I have to offer the person with a terrible viral sinus infection is an antibiotic, I could see making that choice just to make them feel better mentally

I have zero quibbles with docs doing that with hydroxy. CO shows up in a panic over COVID saying he knows hydroxy will prevent him from getting COVID, it is cool that your doc gives it to you.

I do not blame the doctors. The docs desperately want to help. They do. I get that, I would desperately want to help.

But that is not where this debate began, you said the anti-hydroxy response likely cost lives. I am waiting for proof. Is it theoretically possible, sure. But let me give you a counter. Give 100 million Americans and first, 1-2% will develop retina issues in 5 years. Google it and tell me your source I am wrong. But 2, hundreds of thousands of those Americans who were at risk will go and pack bars. Why, they have their miracle drug protecting them. More people die, not less, unless hydroxy works and works well.
 

mcmurtry66

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It’s not just entry level service jobs - this is the key difference in how liberals think vs conservatives. I’m more concerned about the small business owner who provides a service and taxes into a local economy and provides jobs for the community. I of course care about the worker but the biggest victim in an over-aggressive shutdown is the business owner. They’ve dumped lots of capital into the business only to have politicians ruin it. That’s the tragedy.
Exactly. And getting start up dough once is hard enough. A second time - forget it
 
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mcmurtry66

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You’re a good poster, but Trump lost himself when he started lying ..... pretty much from the beginning of the pandemic, and then he tried cannibalizing anyone he thought he could throw in harm‘s way.

There’s bad leadership, then there’s cowardly leadership. He was a coward. He did a really nice job accelerating the vaccine development programs, but pretty much everything else was a guy flailing around for a life raft.

It wasn’t cowardly it was self-serving. He did what he thought would benefit him politically - it backfired
 

CO. Hoosier

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For generations people went to doctors with viral diseases. Doctors, knowing that antibiotics did not work, still prescribed antibiotics. They did this for one of two reasons, 1) I was often told "just in case a bacterial infection develops" 2) patients wanted/demanded a treatment.

Read above and think of opiod over prescription. If all I have to offer the person with a terrible viral sinus infection is an antibiotic, I could see making that choice just to make them feel better mentally

I have zero quibbles with docs doing that with hydroxy. CO shows up in a panic over COVID saying he knows hydroxy will prevent him from getting COVID, it is cool that your doc gives it to you.

I do not blame the doctors. The docs desperately want to help. They do. I get that, I would desperately want to help.

But that is not where this debate began, you said the anti-hydroxy response likely cost lives. I am waiting for proof. Is it theoretically possible, sure. But let me give you a counter. Give 100 million Americans and first, 1-2% will develop retina issues in 5 years. Google it and tell me your source I am wrong. But 2, hundreds of thousands of those Americans who were at risk will go and pack bars. Why, they have their miracle drug protecting them. More people die, not less, unless hydroxy works and works well.
Harvey Risch is no slouch. Yet Yale went to extraordinary lengths to distance itself from him. He was an early critic of our response being entirely too focused on high dollar Vaccines instead of treatment. He claims it cost lives.

Same old story for our government action. Follow the money and see what legalized corruption looks like.
 
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mcmurtry66

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Harvey Risch is no slouch. Yet Yale went to extraordinary lengths to distance itself from him. He was an early critic of our response being entirely too focused on high dollar Vaccines instead of treatment. He claims it cost lives.

Same old story for our government action. Follow the money and see what legalized corruption looks like.
....inertia, ineptitude and lack of accountability. When will a commission be created to investigate agency responses. It won’t. Just budget increases bc now they have an excuse to ask for more $. Gov....
 

Marvin the Martian

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Exactly. And getting start up dough once is hard enough. A second time - forget it
One of the hardest hit areas is the bar industry. Gross bar sales in the US are $26 billion per year. The US could have paid $26 billion and kept that industry completely alive even if a single customer came in. I think the food industry is $700 million or so, some of that are huge chains not needing help. For $500 billion we could have kept that whole industry 100% alive without a single customer. I don't know what the hotel industry is, but I bet it could be added in and us be at under $2 trillion. No one loses a job, no business goes under, and we did not do it. Is that a lack of leadership.
 
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ovaltine

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It wasn’t cowardly it was self-serving. He did what he thought would benefit him politically - it backfired
IMHO, “self-serving” = “cowardly” in positions of leadership, and the cowardly quotient increases as the position of leadership grows in importance.

Going after people “down the food chain“ is the ultimate capitulation to cowardice, as is denying any accountability. He did both multiple times. Again, that’s not self-serving, IMHO, that‘s cowardice.

I do agree, though, that it cost him the election.
 

Marvin the Martian

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Harvey Risch is no slouch. Yet Yale went to extraordinary lengths to distance itself from him. He was an early critic of our response being entirely too focused on high dollar Vaccines instead of treatment. He claims it cost lives.

Same old story for our government action. Follow the money and see what legalized corruption looks like.

We developed something that worked and was cheap. Steroids. We developed other medicines. We learned not to keep people on their backs. The death rate for COVID was not always this 1%. We got better treating it.

So should we have developed the vaccines? Because if you are not arguing we only developed vaccines because of corruption your point there has no point. Should we have developed vaccines?

Yale distanced themselves because Yale used Hydroxy and Yale learned it did not work

 

mcmurtry66

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One of the hardest hit areas is the bar industry. Gross bar sales in the US are $26 billion per year. The US could have paid $26 billion and kept that industry completely alive even if a single customer came in. I think the food industry is $700 million or so, some of that are huge chains not needing help. For $500 billion we could have kept that whole industry 100% alive without a single customer. I don't know what the hotel industry is, but I bet it could be added in and us be at under $2 trillion. No one loses a job, no business goes under, and we did not do it. Is that a lack of leadership.
Yea. Presidential AND congressional
 
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i'vegotwinners

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Harvey Risch is no slouch. Yet Yale went to extraordinary lengths to distance itself from him. He was an early critic of our response being entirely too focused on high dollar Vaccines instead of treatment. He claims it cost lives.

Same old story for our government action. Follow the money and see what legalized corruption looks like.

when govt is for sale, you can't get anything but what we got.

it's not personal, it's just business.

don't criticize the result, while backing what inevitably led to that result, and never could have led to anything else.
 

NPT

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It’s bad math because we don’t know the true fatality rate against the whole population - including children. Children have a virtual death asymptotic to zero. So take all youths out of your 340M number. Healthy adults also have very little to worry about it. The math is way off.

I didn’t have a problem with shutdowns early because it was big, scary, and new. But as the science became more clear especially with respect to being outdoors we should’ve opened much earlier. Neutral task forces for investigations and commissions will likely find the same. But something tells me Democrats will refuse to admit that, looking back, knowing what we now know we went overboard.
We (US) always over react to about everything.... JMO
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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It’s bad math because we don’t know the true fatality rate against the whole population - including children. Children have a virtual death asymptotic to zero. So take all youths out of your 340M number. Healthy adults also have very little to worry about it. The math is way off.

I didn’t have a problem with shutdowns early because it was big, scary, and new. But as the science became more clear especially with respect to being outdoors we should’ve opened much earlier. Neutral task forces for investigations and commissions will likely find the same. But something tells me Democrats will refuse to admit that, looking back, knowing what we now know we went overboard.
One more thing to remember about this. Covid doesn't exist in a vacuum, and the restrictions were largely in recognition of this. The primary purpose of shutdowns and other restrictions was not to stop Covid. It was too late to stop it. The primary purpose was to slow the spread enough to minimize the chances of our emergency health care system becoming overwhelmed, which could have been far more deadly than just Covid by itself. Just ask India.
 

INRanger27

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You’re a good poster, but Trump lost himself when he started lying ..... pretty much from the beginning of the pandemic, and then he tried cannibalizing anyone he thought he could throw in harm‘s way.

There’s bad leadership, then there’s cowardly leadership. He was a coward. He did a really nice job accelerating the vaccine development programs, but pretty much everything else was a guy flailing around for a life raft.
I agree with the everything you said but I strongly believe some states stayed overly restricted and the media was overly negative to aid in his being removed via election.
 

mcmurtry66

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I agree with the everything you said but I strongly believe some states stayed overly restricted and the media was overly negative to aid in his being removed via election.
Absolutely true on both counts. Basing southern Illinois on Chicago. Examples abound all over the country
 
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ovaltine

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I agree with the everything you said but I strongly believe some states stayed overly restricted and the media was overly negative to aid in his being removed via election.
I agree wholeheartedly about the media. Regarding the states, he fed into that to a large extent with (my term) his cowardly behavior. His treatment of Dr Fauci and Dr Birx is Exhibit A in that argument, IMHO.
 

UncleMark

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OK, I read some of this until my eyes crossed and I passed out.

Is there any benefit to this drug (for C19)? Personally I hope there is just to provide another therapeutic option, but I know some hope there is not.
Despite the initial promising results from the in vitro studies and the widespread use of CQ/HCQ in clinical settings during the 1st wave of COVID-19, current data from well-designed randomized controlled trials showed no evidence of benefit from CQ/HCQ supplementation for the treatment or prophylaxis against SARS-CoV-2 infection. Particularly, the two largest randomized controlled trials to date (RECOVERY and WHO SOLIDARITY trials), both confirmed that CQ/HCQ regimen does not provide any clinical benefit for COVID-19 patients. Therefore, we do not recommend the use of this regimen in COVID-19 patients outside the context of clinical trials.
 

CO. Hoosier

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Mitch is not clear who he is talking about. And look at the other side, I think I can prove with no doubt there was never 0 risk to the economy. He seems to be speaking only of people who wanted zero COVID risk, was not the other a problem?

The same people loving Mitch for those comments about risk averse blasted Cuomo for leaving the subways open. The subways are critical to NYC, there is no economy without them. No Drs and nurses going to work either. So I think he was wrong but I get the hesitancy to close them.

In what logical process is Mitch right and Cuomo wrong about the subways?
“‘To help ensure maximum protections for staff and children at child care and camp programs, we are issuing this guidance so the facilities can implement basic but critical measures that will allow them to operate safely,’ said New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) in a statement.”​
So said Governor Cuomo as he ordered kids starting at age 2 must wear masks at summer camps. Never mind the fact that the risk of transmission from toddlers to adults is very low and the risk of transmission to a vaccinated adult is nil.

The pandemic is on the wane. Infection and transmission rates are dropping. Vaccines are readily available to everyone. Yet Cuomo perpetuates anxiety and fear. This is not leadership. “Maximum protection” is not the standard under which we live.

As Mitch said:

“But there’s a companion quality you’ll need to be the leaders you can be. That’s the willingness to take risks. Not reckless ones, but the risks that still remain after all the evidence has been considered.”​
 
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Marvin the Martian

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“‘To help ensure maximum protections for staff and children at child care and camp programs, we are issuing this guidance so the facilities can implement basic but critical measures that will allow them to operate safely,’ said New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) in a statement.”​
So said Governor Cuomo as he ordered kids starting at age 2 must wear masks at summer camps. Never mind the fact that the risk of transmission from toddlers to adults is very low and the risk of transmission to a vaccinated adult is nil.

The pandemic is on the wane. Infection and transmission rates are dropping. Vaccines are readily available to everyone. Yet Cuomo perpetuates anxiety and fear. This is not leadership. “Maximum protection” is not the standard under which we live.

As Mitch said:

“But there’s a companion quality you’ll need to be the leaders you can be. That’s the willingness to take risks. Not reckless ones, but the risks that still remain after all the evidence has been considered.”​
Is that specifically who he was talking about? Or was it Indiana Governor Holcomb who many in the GOP want to remove (same for DeWine in OH)? Was he talking about someone who might have held mass gathering campaign events, was that leadership? He doesn't say in what I read.

Don't expect me to defend Cuomo, but the two GOP governor's above are attacked by members of their party. I think both did well, but it appears the GOP has a different view of leadership. The Indiana legislature voted to strip Holcomb of his powers.

Don't expect me to defend Cuomo on that stuff. Cuomo has sucked for several months.
 

CO. Hoosier

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Is that specifically who he was talking about? Or was it Indiana Governor Holcomb who many in the GOP want to remove (same for DeWine in OH)? Was he talking about someone who might have held mass gathering campaign events, was that leadership? He doesn't say in what I read.

Don't expect me to defend Cuomo, but the two GOP governor's above are attacked by members of their party. I think both did well, but it appears the GOP has a different view of leadership. The Indiana legislature voted to strip Holcomb of his powers.

Don't expect me to defend Cuomo on that stuff. Cuomo has sucked for several months.
Mitch wasn’t talking about people. He was talking about leadership qualities concerning thinking about risk. . I’m the one who said Cuomo is essentially thoughtless and clueless about risk.
 

Marvin the Martian

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Mitch wasn’t talking about people. He was talking about leadership qualities concerning thinking about risk. . I’m the one who said Cuomo is essentially thoughtless and clueless about risk.

Of course there must be balancing of risks vs other competing interests. That is why few states did full lockdowns after the initial full lockdown

But balancing risks works both ways. A leader requiring baseball players, as an example, to wear masks is not doing it. A leader, if one existed, that held maskless packed rallies was not balancing. It is surely 100% as much a wrong to under balance as over balance.
 

Courtsensetwo

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Despite the initial promising results from the in vitro studies and the widespread use of CQ/HCQ in clinical settings during the 1st wave of COVID-19, current data from well-designed randomized controlled trials showed no evidence of benefit from CQ/HCQ supplementation for the treatment or prophylaxis against SARS-CoV-2 infection. Particularly, the two largest randomized controlled trials to date (RECOVERY and WHO SOLIDARITY trials), both confirmed that CQ/HCQ regimen does not provide any clinical benefit for COVID-19 patients. Therefore, we do not recommend the use of this regimen in COVID-19 patients outside the context of clinical trials.
Thanks.

That is too bad but there have been other drugs with some success.
 

CO. Hoosier

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Of course there must be balancing of risks vs other competing interests. That is why few states did full lockdowns after the initial full lockdown

But balancing risks works both ways. A leader requiring baseball players, as an example, to wear masks is not doing it. A leader, if one existed, that held maskless packed rallies was not balancing. It is surely 100% as much a wrong to under balance as over balance.
Just stop it marv. You are obsessed about making this about Trump and other people having mentioned him twice in this thread. The reason I brought up Cuomo is solely because he said his view of risk analysis was to “ensure maximum protection of staff and children”. I pointed out that is not the standard by which decisions should be made and certainly isn’t Daniels’ point. If you think that is the proper standard I‘d be delighted to engage you. I have no idea what you meant by defending Cuomo.

As far as I know, Trump hasn’t said a damn thing about this. Why is he even relevant? Cuomo commented. Would you have preferred I said an “unnamed governor“?

All that being said, Trump chose to hold all his rallies outside. We knew last June that outside transmission of Covid was rare, yet many were saying put your mask on whenever you leave your front door. Biden said in February of 2021 wear a mask when you walk your dog. These examples show different ways of looking at risk.
 

Bulk VanderHuge

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All that being said, Trump chose to hold all his rallies outside. We knew last June that outside transmission of Covid was rare, yet many were saying put your mask on whenever you leave your front door. Biden said in February of 2021 wear a mask when you walk your dog. Both these examples show different ways of looking at risk.
???

Uh, did you forget the June 20, 2020 rally at the BOK Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma?

DBZPZEMJYK4345ZFEQIRZJWQAQ.jpg
 

Bulk VanderHuge

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Yeah I did forget it. He took them all outside after that, correct?
Actually, he had an overflow area, but took it down because less than 6,300 (BOK Center holds over 19,000) people showed up. Trump was furious, and if you remember, members of his campaign staff were actually removing social distancing stickers from the seats.
I'm sure Herman Cain wished he had made other plans.
 

CO. Hoosier

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Despite the initial promising results from the in vitro studies and the widespread use of CQ/HCQ in clinical settings during the 1st wave of COVID-19, current data from well-designed randomized controlled trials showed no evidence of benefit from CQ/HCQ supplementation for the treatment or prophylaxis against SARS-CoV-2 infection. Particularly, the two largest randomized controlled trials to date (RECOVERY and WHO SOLIDARITY trials), both confirmed that CQ/HCQ regimen does not provide any clinical benefit for COVID-19 patients. Therefore, we do not recommend the use of this regimen in COVID-19 patients outside the context of clinical trials.
Do you have the details on the “well designed“ studies? In one of the links in this thread there is a comment that as of January 2021 the studies about Hydroxy effectiveness in how it was actually being used were still underway.
 

Marvin the Martian

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Just stop it marv. You are obsessed about making this about Trump and other people having mentioned him twice in this thread. The reason I brought up Cuomo is solely because he said his view of risk analysis was to “ensure maximum protection of staff and children”. I pointed out that is not the standard by which decisions should be made and certainly isn’t Daniels’ point. If you think that is the proper standard I‘d be delighted to engage you. I have no idea what you meant by defending Cuomo.

As far as I know, Trump hasn’t said a damn thing about this. Why is he even relevant? Cuomo commented. Would you have preferred I said an “unnamed governor“?

All that being said, Trump chose to hold all his rallies outside. We knew last June that outside transmission of Covid was rare, yet many were saying put your mask on whenever you leave your front door. Biden said in February of 2021 wear a mask when you walk your dog. These examples show different ways of looking at risk.

There is where we differ. I am quite willing to say Cuomo made big mistakes. I have no issue with that. But going back to last year when I suggested that Trump wasn't showing leadership by TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY downplaying COVID at the beginning wasn't leadership you went ape. You somehow see a lack of leadership by over governors that overstated the risk, you have yet to make a single comment about anyone who underplayed the risk.

Did ANYONE ANYWHERE EVERY underplay the risk?
 

CO. Hoosier

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There is where we differ. I am quite willing to say Cuomo made big mistakes. I have no issue with that. But going back to last year when I suggested that Trump wasn't showing leadership by TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY downplaying COVID at the beginning wasn't leadership you went ape. You somehow see a lack of leadership by over governors that overstated the risk, you have yet to make a single comment about anyone who underplayed the risk.

Did ANYONE ANYWHERE EVERY underplay the risk?
We have much more fundamental differences than this. I give up.
 
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