Mitch Daniels gets it

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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If you’re wrong, it cost millions of people their jobs. That’s not something to laugh at over a beer.

Again I’m not playing armchair QB. Trump should’ve responded more quickly. Fauci should’ve been more consistent at the beginning. But once it became clear it wasn’t the Black Death, we should’ve snapped to our senses. And we didn’t. So that Trump would lose.
That's unfair. I don't think the various Republican governors who were hesitant to open too quickly were doing it so that Trump would lose.

It's too easy to make everything political. This was not political. I mean, of course, it got made political, because everything does, but at the root, we are talking about a lot of scientific unknowns and we did the best we could. Made the wrong choices in a lot of places in hindsight - but it is hindsight, after all.
 

INRanger27

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That's unfair. I don't think the various Republican governors who were hesitant to open too quickly were doing it so that Trump would lose.

It's too easy to make everything political. This was not political. I mean, of course, it got made political, because everything does, but at the root, we are talking about a lot of scientific unknowns and we did the best we could. Made the wrong choices in a lot of places in hindsight - but it is hindsight, after all.
It was political...after a certain point Goat. It became immediately clear around mid summer 2020 that this wasn’t Bubonic Plague. But it didn’t matter. Blue state governors stayed close. Red states tried to open up and half of America to this day is convinced DeSantis is the antichrist thanks to CNN and NYT smear jobs.

Sorry man. I used to defend CNN and the Times to my last breath - but COVID exposed them.

on edit: we’re probably saying the same thing. Like we usually do. But **** you just in case.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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It was political...after a certain point Goat. It became immediately clear around mid summer 2020 that this wasn’t Bubonic Plague. But it didn’t matter. Blue state governors stayed close. Red states tried to open up and half of America to this day is convinced DeSantis is the antichrist thanks to CNN and NYT smear jobs.

Sorry man. I used to defend CNN and the Times to my last breath - but COVID exposed them.

on edit: we’re probably saying the same thing. Like we usually do. But **** you just in case.
Are you complaining about the governors or the media?

I live in a red state with a red state governor. He was pretty cautious. I live next door to a red state with a red state governor. He was cautious, too.
 

INRanger27

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Are you complaining about the governors or the media?

I live in a red state with a red state governor. He was pretty cautious. I live next door to a red state with a red state governor. He was cautious, too.
Mainly the media. Because our elected officials are now mostly controlled by it.

Indiana handled it pretty well from where I sit (no longer Indiana). But Ohio isn’t a red state. It’s very purple.
 

UncleMark

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We don’t know the Rose Garden was the source of the outbreak.

Those people probably all rubbed shoulders inside before the Rose Garden event. That's probably when it happened.

I don't think anyone with any sense claims it was the Rose Garden ceremony that was the super spreader event. It was the confabs and receptions before and after where the infection spread. The ceremony made it to TV because that's where the cameras were allowed.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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I don't think anyone with any sense claims it was the Rose Garden ceremony that was the super spreader event. It was the confabs and receptions before and after where the infection spread. The ceremony made it to TV because that's where the cameras were allowed.
It was still a bunch of people who should know better not taking it seriously.
 

UncleMark

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It was still a bunch of people who should know better not taking it seriously.

Of course. But that all came from the top.

There were a few photos that got out showing what those events looked like. "Rubbing shoulders" is a good descriptor, and masks were nowhere in sight.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Of course. But that all came from the top.

There were a few photos that got out showing what those events looked like. "Rubbing shoulders" is a good descriptor, and masks were nowhere in sight.
I hate to say it, but if the disease had been more deadly, some of these elite asshole outbreaks might have actually resulted in some action.
 

Marvin the Martian

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A health campaign. Vit D and zinc. Figure out how to isolate certain pops. Put fauci in a cubicle. Implement some of igw’s stuff.

We weren’t prepared and imo trump was the worst possible prez to have for such a thing
Like you, I thought vitamin D worked. Further research suggests no. The issue is simple, the same things that makes one tend to have low vitamin D tended to cause COVID to kill. Things like obesity and diabetes. So the people with lower levels of vitamin D dying was really just saying people with those other conditions were dying.


Addendum - zinc may be the same. Diabetes and cancer lower zinc levels. Zinc tried in hospitals after infection had no positive result.
 
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mcmurtry66

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Like you, I thought vitamin D worked. Further research suggests no. The issue is simple, the same things that makes one tend to have low vitamin D tended to cause COVID to kill. Things like obesity and diabetes. So the people with lower levels of vitamin D dying was really just saying people with those other conditions were dying.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing
 

CO. Hoosier

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It was political...after a certain point Goat. It became immediately clear around mid summer 2020 that this wasn’t Bubonic Plague. But it didn’t matter. Blue state governors stayed close. Red states tried to open up and half of America to this day is convinced DeSantis is the antichrist thanks to CNN and NYT smear jobs.

Sorry man. I used to defend CNN and the Times to my last breath - but COVID exposed them.

on edit: we’re probably saying the same thing. Like we usually do. But **** you just in case.
many also used COVID to virtue signal and otherwise strut their political bona fides. It was known in the summer of last year that outside transmission was highly unlikely unless in a very crowded situation. Yet many preached to wear a mask whenever leaving home and that wearing one was patriotic. On Super Bowl Sunday in February 2021 we heard from the White House to wear a mask when walking your dog. After POTUS was fully vaccinated he wore a mask in order to send a signal. All of this tended to perpetuate fears that needlessly kept schools closed, needlessly kept economic sectors shut down, needlessly kept people on edge, and needlessly caused congress to react with needless spending.
 
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Marvin the Martian

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many also used COVID to virtue signal and otherwise strut their political bona fides. It was known in the summer of last year that outside transmission was highly unlikely unless in a very crowded situation. Yet many preached to wear a mask whenever leaving home and that wearing one was patriotic. On Super Bowl Sunday in February 2021 we heard from the White House to wear a mask when walking your dog. After POTUS was fully vaccinated he wore a mask in order to send a signal. All of this tended to perpetuate fears that needlessly kept schools closed, needlessly kept economic sectors shut down, needlessly kept people on edge, and needlessly caused congress to react with needless spending.

Mistakes were made on 9itdoor in non-crowded environments. Mistakes were made with schools. I agree and have mentioned both above.

Were mistakes made by those virtue signaling that masks and distancing were not needed indoors? Were mistakes made by those who virtue signaled all one needed was (name of magic drug or supplement) and COVID was a guaranteed nuthingburger?
 

TommyCracker

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If you’re wrong, it cost millions of people their jobs. That’s not something to laugh at over a beer.

Again I’m not playing armchair QB. Trump should’ve responded more quickly. Fauci should’ve been more consistent at the beginning. But once it became clear it wasn’t the Black Death, we should’ve snapped to our senses. And we didn’t. So that Trump would lose.

It's still a losers bet as Lives > a job. Plus the govt basically subsidized it.

The economy held together and the market took off. There was no recession.

I probably have the same attitude as many had with lives. If a business didn't survive, that sucked but it probably wasn't surviving anyway.

Too your point, once we started getting our hands around it we should of had a better recovery plan I guess.

Still it might have seemed like forever but it was essentially a little over a year. Unemployment is now around 6% and expected to keep shrinking.

Weak reply by me I know but if I'm erroring on jobs vs health, I'm sacrificing jobs.

Plus I'd like to know two things....what jobs got hit the hardest (guessing entry level service) and was that due to govt action or because we were fighting a pandemic because the lib tard like myself, we weren't going out in it.
 
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TommyCracker

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If you’re wrong, it cost millions of people their jobs. That’s not something to laugh at over a beer.

Again I’m not playing armchair QB. Trump should’ve responded more quickly. Fauci should’ve been more consistent at the beginning. But once it became clear it wasn’t the Black Death, we should’ve snapped to our senses. And we didn’t. So that Trump would lose.

Sorry answering twice.

When did we know it wasn't the black death?

I mean we had a national security risk in mid October as the President had to be airlifted to the hospital and everyone around him basically got a pretty bad case of it.

That wasn't that long ago.
 

TommyCracker

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Are you complaining about the governors or the media?

I live in a red state with a red state governor. He was pretty cautious. I live next door to a red state with a red state governor. He was cautious, too.

I live in a state that is as blue as my balls are tonight (Minnesota) and we shut down twice...once in the spring when everybody did and then after our first cold snap in mid November when our cases jumped dramatically. It was told it was mainly to not overrun our hospitals.

We've been open but with restrictions. As an old dude that plays in a cover band on the weekends, I can tell you that other than putting tables on dance floors, clubs didn't really enforce strickly at all (and predictably several bands got hit with covid including my own which I avoided because (I believe) I masked up, had fans blowing out on stage and didn't linger when I wasn't playing).
 

mcmurtry66

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It's still a losers bet as Lives > a job. Plus the govt basically subsidized it.

The economy held together and the market took off. There was no recession.

I probably have the same attitude as many had with lives. If a business didn't survive, that sucked but it probably wasn't surviving anyway.

Too your point, once we started getting our hands around it we should of had a better recovery plan I guess.

Still it might have seemed like forever but it was essentially a little over a year. Unemployment is now around 6% and expected to keep shrinking.

Weak reply by me I know but if I'm erroring on jobs vs health, I'm sacrificing jobs.

Plus I'd like to know two things....what jobs got hit the hardest (guessing entry level service) and was that due to govt action or because we were fighting a pandemic because the lib tard like myself, we weren't going out in it.
More businesses than you think. Odd sectors too. Lots of companies cut it close and aren’t prepared to lose months and months. For instance football helmet manufacturing. Schutt went bankrupt from Covid. A close friend has a marketing company that does event tours for products. Lost a full year. Cut half the staff. No shows etc. many of the manufacturers we use for production couldn’t work during Covid and have since cut staff dramatically.
 
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mcmurtry66

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I live in a state that is as blue as my balls are tonight (Minnesota) and we shut down twice...once in the spring when everybody did and then after our first cold snap in mid November when our cases jumped dramatically. It was told it was mainly to not overrun our hospitals.

We've been open but with restrictions. As an old dude that plays in a cover band on the weekends, I can tell you that other than putting tables on dance floors, clubs didn't really enforce strickly at all (and predictably several bands got hit with covid including my own which I avoided because (I believe) I masked up, had fans blowing out on stage and didn't linger when I wasn't playing).

Lmfao!! You’ve still got Saturday night!
 

TommyCracker

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More businesses than you think. Odd sectors too. Lots of companies cut it close and aren’t prepared to lose months and months. For instance football helmet manufacturing. Schutt went bankrupt from Covid

Hopefully a lot of companies like that will come back either out of 7 or 13 or as a new company and debt free (ah the beauty of the corporation structure).

I have no answers here, it sucks all around.

I don't believe it was done on purpose because of Trump as some sort of 'ah ha, this could hurt him so let's keep the restrictions up even though we don't have to'.

To me that's nonsensical.

It was a health crisis and until vaccinations started having an impact our numbers weren't improving much.

Now that they are we're opening back up again, I believe thanks to the vaccine.
 

Courtsensetwo

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yeah what the hell are a couple million more people really worth? if you owned a functioning small business and lost it last year due to the pandemic you probably weren't going to survive anyway, the govt basically paid your expenses . Biden has done more in 4 months than the dumbass did the year before as far as getting us back to normal, so I guess your right leadership does matter .
Leadership is also able to step back and look at things in context. Your ridiculous first sentence indicates a lack of Emotional Intelligence that would preclude effective leadership. You completely missed Mitch's point.
 

Courtsensetwo

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I agree with you but my only complaint would be I believe you are too aggressive with the stuff we think we know now.

At the time the only thing we knew was it was an airborne virus that was more contagious than normal that there was no cure for. Only comfort. You just had to hope that you could fight it off.

That's a pretty scary concept.

I wish we could have two do overs. One time line where we did nothing and one where we were all on the same page in trying to contain this thing.

We were at war and we spent a lot of time fighting amongst ourselves instead of uniting in the war on covid.

When I had the covid precautions discussion I almost always went to a betting proposition.

If I'm wrong and this is nothing than I'll have some embarrassing pics of me wearing a mask that we can laugh at over a beer.

If you are wrong, that leads to a higher level of death and suffering.

What bet do you want to take?

Ultimately it's hard for me not to believe our infighting led to death and suffering which I'll admit burns me because I consider us complete failures that couldn't rise and unite to the challenge on the war on covid.

Let's teach that lesson in these proposed American Exceptionalism courses.
In ther early stages transmission was considered almost exclusively to be by touch. Wash your hands, wipes, spray etc. The airborne aspect was realized leter.
 

Courtsensetwo

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A comment about ”leaders” from his address to PU grads

Sometimes they let what might be termed the mad pursuit of zero, in this case zero risk of anyone contracting the virus, block out other competing concerns, like the protection of mental health, the educational needs of small children, or the survival of small businesses. Pursuing one goal to the utter exclusion of all others is not to make a choice but to run from it. It’s not leadership; it’s abdication. I feel confident your Purdue preparation won’t let you fall prey to it.​

But there’s a companion quality you’ll need to be the leaders you can be. That’s the willingness to take risks. Not reckless ones, but the risks that still remain after all the evidence has been considered.​
The COVID Derangement Syndrome and Covidocracy that sprung up last year shows not only how fragile effective leadership is, but how bad we are at producing leaders. This is an asymmetrical issue. Bad leadership hit us from all quarters, including government, business, media, and entertainment. I’ll grant that in the beginning we were justifiably concerned about unknowns, but as the year wore on, when we knew more about the virus, our leaders continued with their “emergency” orders and did enormous damage to the country. kids still aren’t in school. The politicizing of it piled on. I’d like to think we learned important lessons about risks and effective leadership. But I don’t think so.
Mitch's thoughts here, while not new or original, are spot on and timely. I would like to have seen him present the same comments to the IU grads given the higher instance of corporate and community leadership that emerges from Btown.
 

ce36ei

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DeSantis literally closed I95/I10 to screen people. People have seemed to forget that. To me, he’s maybe not the model...but He’s sure been close to it.
 

ce36ei

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Sorry answering twice.

When did we know it wasn't the black death?

I mean we had a national security risk in mid October as the President had to be airlifted to the hospital and everyone around him basically got a pretty bad case of it.

That wasn't that long ago.
Trump was/is an old unhealthy guy who took zero precautions. It was know pretty well by then that’s ground zero for the majority of deaths.
 

Marvin the Martian

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More businesses than you think. Odd sectors too. Lots of companies cut it close and aren’t prepared to lose months and months. For instance football helmet manufacturing. Schutt went bankrupt from Covid. A close friend has a marketing company that does event tours for products. Lost a full year. Cut half the staff. No shows etc. many of the manufacturers we use for production couldn’t work during Covid and have since cut staff dramatically.
Roughly 40% of Americans have high risk conditions. Some non-high risk live with or routinely interact with high risk people growing that number considerably. So let's put that number at 60%. Now not everyone at risk would stay home to begin with, but when they caught COVID going to bars, ballgames, etc, they would have to drop out while in the hospital or dead.

So in other words, the economy was going to tank. It really was unless someone passed a law requiring everyone to go out to eat, attend movies, travel and stay in hotels, sign kids up for football. Unless someone made people do that stuff, the economy was going down and more would die the moment the virus came here.

Would Mitch's ideal leader be urging diabetics to attend crowded bars in December to keep the economy going? Florida did almost nothing and dropped 2.9, and Indiana had a fairly reasoned response and dropped 3.1. Yet the MAGA crowd hates Indiana's governor. In Georgia, didn't Kemp keep restrictions looser than many states? GDP fell 4.1%.

 

Courtsensetwo

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DeSantis literally closed I95/I10 to screen people. People have seemed to forget that. To me, he’s maybe not the model...but He’s sure been close to it.
One of the primary reasons that Palm Beach, Broward and Dade counties were hit so hard is the large numbers of people from NY/NJ that came back down in April.
 

Courtsensetwo

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Roughly 40% of Americans have high risk conditions. Some non-high risk live with or routinely interact with high risk people growing that number considerably. So let's put that number at 60%. Now not everyone at risk would stay home to begin with, but when they caught COVID going to bars, ballgames, etc, they would have to drop out while in the hospital or dead.

So in other words, the economy was going to tank. It really was unless someone passed a law requiring everyone to go out to eat, attend movies, travel and stay in hotels, sign kids up for football. Unless someone made people do that stuff, the economy was going down and more would die the moment the virus came here.

Would Mitch's ideal leader be urging diabetics to attend crowded bars in December to keep the economy going? Florida did almost nothing and dropped 2.9, and Indiana had a fairly reasoned response and dropped 3.1. Yet the MAGA crowd hates Indiana's governor. In Georgia, didn't Kemp keep restrictions looser than many states? GDP fell 4.1%.

Mitch's comments were not as extreme as they are being made out to be. I have always told our Associates that "perfection is the enemy of excellence". That is what he means, and he is right.
 
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Marvin the Martian

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Mitch's comments were not as extreme as they are being made out to be. I have always told our Associates that "perfection is the enemy of excellence". That is what he means, and he is right.
Mitch is not clear who he is talking about. And look at the other side, I think I can prove with no doubt there was never 0 risk to the economy. He seems to be speaking only of people who wanted zero COVID risk, was not the other a problem?

The same people loving Mitch for those comments about risk averse blasted Cuomo for leaving the subways open. The subways are critical to NYC, there is no economy without them. No Drs and nurses going to work either. So I think he was wrong but I get the hesitancy to close them.

In what logical process is Mitch right and Cuomo wrong about the subways?
 

CO. Hoosier

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Mitch is not clear who he is talking about. And look at the other side, I think I can prove with no doubt there was never 0 risk to the economy. He seems to be speaking only of people who wanted zero COVID risk, was not the other a problem?

The same people loving Mitch for those comments about risk averse blasted Cuomo for leaving the subways open. The subways are critical to NYC, there is no economy without them. No Drs and nurses going to work either. So I think he was wrong but I get the hesitancy to close them.

In what logical process is Mitch right and Cuomo wrong about the subways?
Mitch was talking about how a good leader thinks about risk, allocation of risk, and acceptance of risk. He wasn’t talking about specific actions.
 

CO. Hoosier

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Mistakes were made on 9itdoor in non-crowded environments. Mistakes were made with schools. I agree and have mentioned both above.

Were mistakes made by those virtue signaling that masks and distancing were not needed indoors? Were mistakes made by those who virtue signaled all one needed was (name of magic drug or supplement) and COVID was a guaranteed nuthingburger?
I think public policies and actions that exceeded data-based accetable risks was a mistake. It raised anxiety, caused depression, ruined businesses and kept schools closed. Your not-so-subtle Hydroxychloroquine reference is a perfect example of virtue signaling. The rush to condemn it because TRUMP! even resulted in some highly partisan Democrat governors to orders prohibiting its use. That likely cost lives or made some sicker. Those orders were all rescinded but the damage was done.
 
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Marvin the Martian

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I think public policies and actions that exceeded data-based accetable risks was a mistake. It raised anxiety, caused depression, ruined businesses and kept schools closed. Your not-so-subtle Hydroxychloroquine reference is a perfect example of virtue signaling. The rush to condemn it because TRUMP! even resulted in some highly partisan Democrat governors to orders prohibiting its use. That likely cost lives or made some sicker. Those orders were all rescinded but the damage was done.

Meanwhile in the real world hydroxy chloroquine did nothing for COVID so i am not sure what damage was done.

 

twenty02

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Mainly the media. Because our elected officials are now mostly controlled by it.

Indiana handled it pretty well from where I sit (no longer Indiana). But Ohio isn’t a red state. It’s very purple.


I'm sitting at a little league game with 5 and 6 year olds that are still required to wear a fkn mask while playing baseball. So not all of Indiana has any common sense.
 

CO. Hoosier

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I'm sitting at a little league game with 5 and 6 year olds that are still required to wear a fkn mask while playing baseball. So not all of Indiana has any common sense.
Stupid. My grandson had a full season of youth hockey, including out of state travel tournaments in January and February. No masks.
 
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CO. Hoosier

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Meanwhile in the real world hydroxy chloroquine did nothing for COVID so i am not sure what damage was done.

The links ducks the data many primary care doctors know. Early intervention with Hydroxy was effective in some out patients.
 

Marvin the Martian

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The links ducks the data many primary care doctors know. Early intervention with Hydroxy was effective in some out patients.
There is no way of knowing that. The original Ford study that showed Hydroxy worked is a prime example. There were selections as to who could benefit from hydroxy, the sickest patients were not necessarily deemed worth giving it to. Hydroxy patients were far more likely to be given steroids than non-hydroxy, steroids were later proven to work. So at the end of the Ford study, they showed Hydroxy patients survived. What they really showed was something else.

1-2% of hydroxy patients develop retina problems within 5 years. For healthier Americans that is as high or higher risk than COVID was.
 

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