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Minimum Wage

People under age 65 should be able to buy into Medicare, and employers should be able to offer that Medicare buyin as an alternative to private insurance.
In theory I like that; but I'll say that when I was overseeing thousands of injury cases (and contemplating faking my own death) I was shocked at how many people with Medicaid had difficulty finding doctors. Providers would simply refuse to accept Medicaid patients because the reimbursement rates were so low.
 
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In theory I like that; but I'll say that when I was overseeing thousands of injury cases (and contemplating faking my own death) I was shocked at how many people with Medicaid had difficulty finding doctors. Providers would simply refuse to accept Medicaid patients because the reimbursement rates were so low.
Virtually all Medicaid patients are what any industry would call unprofitable customers.

 
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In theory I like that; but I'll say that when I was overseeing thousands of injury cases (and contemplating faking my own death) I was shocked at how many people with Medicaid had difficulty finding doctors. Providers would simply refuse to accept Medicaid patients because the reimbursement rates were so low.
Virtually all Medicaid patients are what any industry would call unprofitable customers.
I said Medicare, not Medicaid. Big difference.
 
I said Medicare, not Medicaid. Big difference.
McMurtry mentioned Medicaid. Medicare patients are still unprofitable at scale too. Many countries that have single payer systems end up with public hospitals and private hospitals. Those that can’t afford private health supplemental insurance go to public hospitals (like our veterans do) which is where one hears the horror stories of inferior healthcare and awful wait times.
 
I understand the differences (age/state/fed/etc) but can you speak to the difference as to reimbursement rates and provider options?
Medicaid decided by state. The red states have pitiful Medicaid coverage by and large due to lower taxes and sometimes higher bar for participation.

Medicare is traditionally higher reimbursement but not always.
 
I understand the differences (age/state/fed/etc) but can you speak to the difference as to reimbursement rates and provider options?
Not really. All I know is I've never heard of any problems getting taken care of under Medicare. It's a pipe dream, anyway.

Now to the ball game...
 
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Medicaid decided by state. The red states have pitiful Medicaid coverage by and large due to lower taxes and sometimes higher bar for participation.

Medicare is traditionally higher reimbursement but not always.
Reimbursement part is what I wondered. Got it.
 
McMurtry mentioned Medicaid. Medicare patients are still unprofitable at scale too. Many countries that have single payer systems end up with public hospitals and private hospitals. Those that can’t afford private health supplemental insurance go to public hospitals (like our veterans do) which is where one hears the horror stories of inferior healthcare and awful wait times.
Yeah I know the differences between Medicare and Medicaid. Reimbursement rates and profitability and providers' receptiveness to treating Medicare patients is what I wondered about. I got it from your other answer and that sheet you attached. 👍 Hell of a pill to jump on government insurance only to have your doctor tell you they don't take it.
 
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People under age 65 should be able to buy into Medicare, and employers should be able to offer that Medicare buyin as an alternative to private insurance.

if anyone was eligible to buy into medicare, the very first people/entities to do so would be the private insurance companies themselves.

that said, "medicare for those that want it" is a catchy but totally false "you can have your cake and eat it too" political slogan deliberately designed to kill actual MFA, and do nothing else.

you can't have the full effectiveness of MFA, or even for medicare for those that want it, and still have private or private employer based healthcare, as medicare funding is tax based, and you can't have that tax base funding it at the same time as still having fee based private insurance.

the baby isn't splitable.

you can't have mfa, or all who want it, and private insurance at the same time, as the funding mechanisms of medicare for all or all who want it, are inextricably incompatible with still having a fee based private insurance option.

that said, the solution to making MFA acceptable to those thinking their absurdly overpriced private healthcare is cheap or free to them, because their employer or customer base, not them, is paying for it, is easy to do.

just set up a MFA tax funding structure that allows employers to pick up some or all of their employees' otherwise individual MFA tax burden, as opposed to their private insurance burden, as they now do.

that way we can still have all the benefits of MFA, and employees with the right employer can still feel like their employer or customer base is still picking up some or all of their healthcare tab for them, as a work benefit..

the only reason everyone today isn't for MFA, is that those with employer subsidized insurance think they are getting theirs for cheap or for free now, because someone else is picking up some or all of the tab for them.

allowing employers to do the same with employees' MFA tax tab, and all the non healthcare/insurance complex push back against MFA is instantly eliminated.
 
Hidden in your post was another great point. Health insurance. It’s not portable. You don’t own it. Your employer does. I could live for months, probably years really, without income. I could not live without health insurance. Not that I have some daily need for it, but because if my dumbass decided to get on a soccer field again in anger and finally killed my knee, I’d be screwed.

One day we will have the conversation about single payer in this country. A conversation that’s honest from both directions. It’s just another thumb on the scale for the employers in this country.
Employer provided health insurance, and everything that's wrong with it, is a function of federal govt meddling via wage controls. Maximum wages and minimum wages, with all the negatives, are all due to a centralized plan and control ideology that never works.
 
People under age 65 should be able to buy into Medicare, and employers should be able to offer that Medicare buyin as an alternative to private insurance.

Hidden in your post was another great point. Health insurance. It’s not portable. You don’t own it. Your employer does. I could live for months, probably years really, without income. I could not live without health insurance. Not that I have some daily need for it, but because if my dumbass decided to get on a soccer field again in anger and finally killed my knee, I’d be screwed.

One day we will have the conversation about single payer in this country. A conversation that’s honest from both directions. It’s just another thumb on the scale for the employers in this country.

Exactly, and this is part of why the labor market has been so rough for younger workers especially since 2008. I know many folks in their mid-50s through mid-60s who have the money to retire but are still working for the health insurance. These are people who would like to move out of the way for a new generation but can't get Medicare and can't afford 10 years of private insurance to get them there.
 
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Exactly, and this is part of why the labor market has been so rough for younger workers especially since 2008. I know many folks in their mid-50s through mid-60s who have the money to retire but are still working for the health insurance. These are people who would like to move out of the way for a new generation but can't get Medicare and can't afford 10 years of private insurance to get them there.
I've joked about this for a while but you nailed it. While not an enormous number, there are plenty of 55 or 60 and overs in the white collar world who'd happily retire if they could get on Medicare. They might be a contingent that you wouldn't expect to get on the MFA train normally but might considering their circumstances. And I use MFA loosely to cover any Medicare expansion efforts be it lowering the eligibility age to allowing folks to opt in, etc.
 
I lurked here for years before I ever posted anything so I know Goat was in the restaurant biz for a number of years. I believe firmly he knows what he's talking about here. I agree with him on all fronts.

Imagine if we had representation who also understood these concepts. Surely, there must be some portion of the Congress who has some first hand knowledge of the economic situation faced by both restaurant workers and owners. Perhaps, there was someone relatively high profile who made name for herself running as the "everyman" and part of the working poor - maybe as a bartender.

Which means one of three things is true:

AOC doesn't understand the economic issues raising the minimum wage or tipped wage would cause in the restaurant business
AOC does understand these issues but chooses to stay completely rigid in her push for a higher minimum wage
AOC is pandering

None of those is good. If there was a ever a topic where she could show her mettle as a serious pol, this would be it.

My position: the minimum wage should be set federally at $10/hr with the states reserving the right to increase it as they see fit. I like then raising it based on some COLA math or adjusting for inflation as Crazy noted.
Wait, Goat was in the restaurant business?

250px-Malice_in_the_Palace.JPG
 
I've joked about this for a while but you nailed it. While not an enormous number, there are plenty of 55 or 60 and overs in the white collar world who'd happily retire if they could get on Medicare. They might be a contingent that you wouldn't expect to get on the MFA train normally but might considering their circumstances. And I use MFA loosely to cover any Medicare expansion efforts be it lowering the eligibility age to allowing folks to opt in, etc.
I'd retire tomorrow if I could buy into Medicare. I turn 60 this week.
 
Good post Goat. $15 minimum wage is a good, easily digestible sound bite. However, economics rarely are that easy. Yes minimum wage needs to be increased as it has been stuck for years. Yes it needs to be pegged to COL to avoid getting stuck again. Aside from that, a whole host of other issues need to considered to avoid the unintended consequences of just doing something.
In a bombshell report released on 2/8, the CBO came to the shocking conclusion that raising the federal minimum wage to $15 would cost the economy more than a million jobs.
 
In a bombshell report released on 2/8, the CBO came to the shocking conclusion that raising the federal minimum wage to $15 would cost the economy more than a million jobs.

On one side of the ledger, about 1.4 million fewer Americans would be able to find a job, as hiring would become more expensive for businesses. On the other, up to 27 million people would potentially get a raise. Consequently, working-class Americans would take home an extra $333 billion in pay over 10 years, and 900,000 fewer individuals would be in poverty. Some families would end up a bit worse off, but on the whole, America’s low-wage workforce—the grocery store cashiers, nursing home aides, and waiters who’ve been perversely forced to the front lines of the coronavirus crisis while largely being paid a pittance—would be better off.
 

On one side of the ledger, about 1.4 million fewer Americans would be able to find a job, as hiring would become more expensive for businesses. On the other, up to 27 million people would potentially get a raise. Consequently, working-class Americans would take home an extra $333 billion in pay over 10 years, and 900,000 fewer individuals would be in poverty. Some families would end up a bit worse off, but on the whole, America’s low-wage workforce—the grocery store cashiers, nursing home aides, and waiters who’ve been perversely forced to the front lines of the coronavirus crisis while largely being paid a pittance—would be better off.

Was hoping he would open with $15 and negotiate to $10. That silly moderate streak in me wanting to get something good done...rather than nothing.
 
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On one side of the ledger, about 1.4 million fewer Americans would be able to find a job, as hiring would become more expensive for businesses. On the other, up to 27 million people would potentially get a raise. Consequently, working-class Americans would take home an extra $333 billion in pay over 10 years, and 900,000 fewer individuals would be in poverty. Some families would end up a bit worse off, but on the whole, America’s low-wage workforce—the grocery store cashiers, nursing home aides, and waiters who’ve been perversely forced to the front lines of the coronavirus crisis while largely being paid a pittance—would be better off.
The CBO estimates that raising the minimum wage would cost 1.4 million jobs, reducing total national employment by 0.9 percent in 2025, the 1st year in which the full $15 hourly wage would be in effect. Some people's wages would increase, lifting about 900,000 people out of poverty in the process; the evidence suggests these higher wages would be largely paid for by consumers in the form of higher prices. The knock-on effects to employment, taxation, and various federal programs would raise the deficit by about $54 billion over the next 10 years.
 
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On one side of the ledger, about 1.4 million fewer Americans would be able to find a job, as hiring would become more expensive for businesses. On the other, up to 27 million people would potentially get a raise. Consequently, working-class Americans would take home an extra $333 billion in pay over 10 years, and 900,000 fewer individuals would be in poverty. Some families would end up a bit worse off, but on the whole, America’s low-wage workforce—the grocery store cashiers, nursing home aides, and waiters who’ve been perversely forced to the front lines of the coronavirus crisis while largely being paid a pittance—would be better off.
I read that when it came out. Although the one I read I thought intimated that it could cause inflation too. I've posted many times about the factories I deal with daily that are largely in rural areas. And I believe it was Twenty that has posted in the past about how many of these unskilled gigs aren't coming back. The factories we use are unskilled. We're keeping directly with Adidas, Nike, Puma and others. All manufacturing overseas. And we're a total nobody so to compete our stuff has to be equal quality or better and much less expensive. We're in the final transition of moving all of our business, 100%, to a city call Sialkot, Pakistan. Their work is fantastic, customer service is fantastic, and it's dirt cheap. So maybe it's inevitable that these unskilled factory type gigs that pay $9 die off - just a natural evolution (devolution) of our economy. (THIS ALL MADE IGW STROKE OUT and I can imagine the seething reply post I'm going to get)

The part I still don't get about $15 an hour is 1) GOAT's really good post on the impact of it on his industry 2) the prosecutor who posted on here about how close that gets to pay jobs like his as an assistant pa and other jobs that took a shit ton of education 3) if $15 is the floor it's really hard to give pay raises because lousy jobs are going to pay a lot more money now and with that being the case I have a hard time believing that report about job loss - 4) FLSA - $15 to comply with OT laws makes shitty paying gigs really well paying gigs when you add in the time and a half and double time requirements under the FLSA. That's brutal on small business.
 
Was hoping he would open with $15 and negotiate to $10. That silly moderate streak in me wanting to get something good done...rather than nothing.
Several moving pieces here. IIUC, Biden is okay with severing the minimum wage proposal from the Covid relief bill. That would take it out of budget reconciliation and require 60 votes in the Senate unless they kill the filibuster.
 

On one side of the ledger, about 1.4 million fewer Americans would be able to find a job, as hiring would become more expensive for businesses. On the other, up to 27 million people would potentially get a raise. Consequently, working-class Americans would take home an extra $333 billion in pay over 10 years, and 900,000 fewer individuals would be in poverty. Some families would end up a bit worse off, but on the whole, America’s low-wage workforce—the grocery store cashiers, nursing home aides, and waiters who’ve been perversely forced to the front lines of the coronavirus crisis while largely being paid a pittance—would be better off.

Any mention of inflation or increased consumer costs?
 
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I read that when it came out. Although the one I read I thought intimated that it could cause inflation too. I've posted many times about the factories I deal with daily that are largely in rural areas. And I believe it was Twenty that has posted in the past about how many of these unskilled gigs aren't coming back. The factories we use are unskilled. We're keeping directly with Adidas, Nike, Puma and others. All manufacturing overseas. And we're a total nobody so to compete our stuff has to be equal quality or better and much less expensive. We're in the final transition of moving all of our business, 100%, to a city call Sialkot, Pakistan. Their work is fantastic, customer service is fantastic, and it's dirt cheap. So maybe it's inevitable that these unskilled factory type gigs that pay $9 die off - just a natural evolution (devolution) of our economy. (THIS ALL MADE IGW STROKE OUT and I can imagine the seething reply post I'm going to get)

The part I still don't get about $15 an hour is 1) GOAT's really good post on the impact of it on his industry 2) the prosecutor who posted on here about how close that gets to pay jobs like his as an assistant pa and other jobs that took a shit ton of education 3) if $15 is the floor it's really hard to give pay raises because lousy jobs are going to pay a lot more money now and with that being the case I have a hard time believing that report about job loss - 4) FLSA - $15 to comply with OT laws makes shitty paying gigs really well paying gigs when you add in the time and a half and double time requirements under the FLSA. That's brutal on small business.

Some likely truths:

1. The minimum wage can't be $15/hr everywhere
2. Jobs will be lost, it's just math
3. Prices will increase in some areas, but not all areas (I saw a UW study of the increases in Seattle showing grocery prices didn't increase, but child care services did)
4. Productivity will increase. If moved to $15/hr factories paying $10/hr will employ fewer people but focus on making them more productive.

I like that Biden removed it from the COVID bill which sets up a real debate about it in Congress, which is what should happen.
 
Some likely truths:

1. The minimum wage can't be $15/hr everywhere
2. Jobs will be lost, it's just math
3. Prices will increase in some areas, but not all areas (I saw a UW study of the increases in Seattle showing grocery prices didn't increase, but child care services did)
4. Productivity will increase. If moved to $15/hr factories paying $10/hr will employ fewer people but focus on making them more productive.

I like that Biden removed it from the COVID bill which sets up a real debate about it in Congress, which is what should happen.
Agreed re it not making sense everywhere. As for the rest I honestly don't know enough about economics to answer. I do know that many factories are hanging on by thread to produce in the states (like mine) but this will be the final push to go to mexico, pakistan, china, etc. The part I struggle with is what the prosecutor poster said about low paying professional gigs. $15 an hour is what we started paralegals. Now that gig is going to pay the same as a grocery bagger. And as I said having $15 as the basement makes promotions and overtime pay really hard as totally unskilled jobs that weren't meant to be anything but jobs for retirees and kids are going to be very well paying jobs. This has to have an impact broader than just what was outlined in that article
 
I saw an article that raising it to $10 would increase the pay of 1.5 million workers by 5% and have no impact on overall employment.
 
If adjusted for inflation over the time since there has been a minimum wage, it ought to be somewhere in the $11 range, most analyses say.

Other analyses have it a little higher. I haven't seen a real solid argument for the $15 figure.

$11 would be a good compromise. Of course, $11 in Brooklyn is not the same as $11 in Gnaw Bone Indiana.

2020-08-13-minimum-wage-year-by-year-e1597671246129.jpg
 
I saw an article that raising it to $10 would increase the pay of 1.5 million workers by 5% and have no impact on overall employment.


if you saw an article, it must be true.


outrageous-headlines.jpg



they-write-stories-impossible-to-disprove-photo-u1



and yes, nobody told you that there would be math involved, but when 34 mil, (pre covid number), live below the poverty level in the US, getting only 1.5 mil out of poverty doesn't exactly solve the problem.

then the real math problems arise, especially for someone staunchly opposed to universal healthcare.

average cost of a 1 br apt in US, $1621 mo.

average cost of a single person health plan is $462 mo, and a family health plan in the US is $1152 mo.

electric plus water plus internet maybe another $200 - $300 mo depending on locale.

$10 hr is $1700 gross a month for someone getting 40 hrs every week.

and we haven't addressed transportation or food or anything else yet, let alone kids.

do you not see the math issues yet?

that said, if you don't like the US cost of living numbers, start with the beyond absurd cost of housing in a feudal economy, and the cost of healthcare in a non Medicare for all universal healthcare country.
 
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if you saw an article, it must be true.


outrageous-headlines.jpg



they-write-stories-impossible-to-disprove-photo-u1



and yes, nobody told you that there would be math involved, but when 34 mil, (pre covid number), live below the poverty level in the US, getting only 1.5 mil out of poverty doesn't exactly solve the problem.

then the real math problems arise, especially for someone staunchly opposed to universal healthcare.

average cost of a 1 br apt in US, $1621 mo.

average cost of a single person health plan is $462 mo, and a family health plan in the US is $1152 mo.

electric plus water plus internet maybe another $200 - $300 mo depending on locale.

$10 hr is $1700 gross a month for someone getting 40 hrs every week.

and we haven't addressed transportation or food or anything else yet, let alone kids.

do you not see the math issues yet?

that said, if you don't like the US cost of living numbers, start with the beyond absurd cost of housing in a feudal economy, and the cost of healthcare in a non Medicare for all universal healthcare country.
How many people do you employ?
 
How many people do you employ?

trying to change the subject i see.

don't blame you.

if you're losing a debate and all the facts go against you, change the subject.

that said, i'm retired, so unlike most, i have no stake in the debate other than a livable country for all.

and i'm already on Medicare as i'm old, so no stake in the game there either.

and again, if you don't like the cost of living getting out of hand, start with the feudal system cost of housing, and the runaway train healthcare costs.
 
trying to change the subject i see.

don't blame you.

if you're losing a debate and all the facts go against you, change the subject.

that said, i'm retired, so unlike most, i have no stake in the debate other than a livable country for all.

and i'm already on Medicare as i'm old, so no stake in the game there either.
You’re an old guy. When you were reading the books we’ve all read, atlas shrugged, fountainhead, would you just kick the hell out of your dog and scream at the ceiling.

Prior to your retirement and manifesto what did you do? How many people did you typically employ? Not as a mid management deal but with your own money?

And I’m not debating you. You speak in broad generalizations that have nothing to do with reality. There’s nothing to debate.

I think your heart is the right place though.
 
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A fleecing of the elevated cost of med care would help immensely. We talk coverage issues incessantly but the cost of care is absurd. Almost half the bankruptcies are a result of medical bills


Nobody ever wants to discuss the cost of care. Trust me, I've tried for years on here. Much easier to blame evil insurance companies rather than have to think long and hard about why costs are so high.
 
trying to change the subject i see.

don't blame you.

if you're losing a debate and all the facts go against you, change the subject.

that said, i'm retired, so unlike most, i have no stake in the debate other than a livable country for all.

and i'm already on Medicare as i'm old, so no stake in the game there either.

and again, if you don't like the cost of living getting out of hand, start with the feudal system cost of housing, and the runaway train healthcare costs.

Feudal system housing. Jesus H Christ... you belong in an institution.... govt run. Enjoy your medicaid nursing home. I hear they are lovely.
 
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Nobody ever wants to discuss the cost of care. Trust me, I've tried for years on here. Much easier to blame evil insurance companies rather than have to think long and hard about why costs are so high.

You are both correct. Family member recently needed an ultrasound of her thyroid. First place wanted $500. Called around and found a place for $93. Called doctors office and told them we went elsewhere. Receptionist said yeah I know that place is so much cheaper. So why did the doctor order the ultrasound at the $500 place then? Hmm.
 
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