I love this kind of shit ...
Mike Davis went 14-15 in year 5. And followed it up with a 15-14 season in year 6. Then shit the bed at UAB and is now coaching Texas Southern. But they are basically the same. WTF ....
Math on the Premie not allowed...
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I love this kind of shit ...
Mike Davis went 14-15 in year 5. And followed it up with a 15-14 season in year 6. Then shit the bed at UAB and is now coaching Texas Southern. But they are basically the same. WTF ....
That's true, but he's had a LOT of talent roll through Lawrence, and he's suffered a bunch of ignominious defeats.
A WHOLE bunch.
I have found beer helps. But not "a beer." That doesn't do shit.
Honestly, I almost stopped watching early this year. But Mama Goat is a huge Yogi fan, and watching basketball together is one of the traditions we formed to keep her engaged with things after her stroke. So I kept watching for her.
Glad I did. On balance, this was an exciting year. And Yogi post-New Year's was fun to watch.
What.
Are.
You.
Talking.
About?
I've NEVER compared TC to MD in any way, shape, or form as IU's coach. I said Matta capitalized on capturing Indiana talent (like Oden and Conley) because MD was a tragic screw-up as IU's coach.
You mean you love that Crean is a far superior recruiter. Or that's what you should mean. If Davis had the talent Crean had, he would've had similar results. Again, 2 years ago Crean took 2 Mc D AAs and a couple other Top 40-50 players and missed the NIT. The N I T.
I'll say it. There's not a lot of difference between the two.
Yea...I've mostly stopped watching. I still check in from time to time, but nothing changes. I still enjoy these threads, though. Talking about how bad we are is somehow more fun than witnessing it.
You can count on it. I'll scrounge together change from the car floor if I have to.
GLBC is my second favorite brewer after Founders. Dramatically underrated on a national level. Hell, on a regional level, too.
Holy Shit ... someone was honest. Holy shit ... I can't believe it .... Seriously ...
Good for you. And it's a damn shame that you almost have to apologize for it.
Believe me, I was about to go on murdering spree after Maui and Duke. But's OK to have actually enjoyed the B1G season and still hate Crean.
It's possible.
Man, I have years of data that says you're wrong. One is a comparison of 15 years of talent rankings, showing that Crean's talent to win ratio is far lower than Matta's but that a bit subjective so ..
If you compare TEAM PER, over the last decade or more which measures team statistical impact Matta needed less PER points (SOS weighted pace neutral) to win (SOS weighted win percentage) than Crean does. Matta's team PER's over the last decade have won more games vs the average while Crean's have won less ..So..
Matta is a positive effect coach. as a point of PER to him is worth more towards a win than it is to an average coach. As is Izzo, Beilein, Gard (too early) .. the next group of coaches are average impact, Painter, Groce, etc etc ..
then come the three negative impact coaches in the conference. They do less with more.. In order McCaffery, Turgeon, Crean. Meaning a rebound or point is worth more towards a win for Izzo, and less for Crean.
Making assets useful and efficient IS COACHING!. I get that you don't think much of Matta, but he's not near as incompetent as the person you compared him to and I don't think it matters which stat or metric used to compare, you're going to find a huge gap in efficiency and production.
Basically, you're wrong.
I actually didn't go nuts after Maui and Duke. I was expecting it. I was prepared. My rants actually came after wins, like Minnesota, after we'd shown that we could be good, but then had to fight and scrape to hold onto leads against teams that probably couldn't win a game in the Horizon league. Ugh.
But, like I said, Yogi was fun to watch. And then, OG's emergence really made it extra fun. Now that Yogi's gone, OG has already been tapped as Mama Goat's new favorite player.
(And mine, too.)
Whooopsie ... my mistake. I reread what I read wrong and I was wrong.
Not really, he was my third major problem after TC and TW. 1 gone 2 to go...
Sounds incredibly retarded and ignorant. Not that I ever gave any of your posts much thought, but thanks for the warning...
I don't agree, but I support the idea that we've finally gotten rid of the bad seeds. We can have very high expectations next year.
Out of all these debates, that's the thing that pisses me off more than anything else, reading IU "fans" talking about their mediocre expectations ("We should be top five in the B1G this year!") and getting excited about it. Makes me sick to my friggin' stomach.
And as long as they buy seats, and shirts....*sigh*
Davis biggest weakness was teaching fundamentals. Crean's greatest skill is teaching individual skills. Seriously, he does a good job teaching individual physical skills.... So the recruits he gets are taught, to run, to shoot, and dribbble, and dribble, and dribble.. Davis's recruits, well, got worse, they weren't taught much at all. So .....
Now this is good data. Well done.
My opinion on Matta is essentially the eye test. I see his teams play and think, "Meh." The same as I think when I see TC's teams play.
In other words, if "my" team is playing one of their teams, I think "my" team has a pretty good shot, regardless of the disparity in talent.
I agree with O. That's a good post. But I have a serious question:
In what way does a coach have an effect on winning that doesn't also find its way into PER?
Can't be just playing the right lineups. That would involve performance upgrades that would show up in PER.
Can't be calling the right plays. That would involve performance upgrades that would show up in PER.
Can't even be calling timeouts at the right time. The whole point of that is to result in performance upgrades that would show up in PER.
So, can you give a simple example of how a coach has an effect that doesn't show up in PER?
Is it possible that a win/PER ratio is really just statistical noise, or related to something else, like statistical luck, rather than anything that points to what a coach does to win? I guess that's really where I'm heading with this. I suppose since statistical luck is tied so closely to close-game results, that could be the point where these items cross, but how would you measure that objectively from a coaching standpoint?
Time manipulation. Only thing I can think of, or dominating someone by not letting them do their thing? Which would mean it may also point to defensive efficiencies that are unmeasurable. Defensive coaches do rank highly, while offensive don't, when using PER that way.....
Oh, and yea, PER when used to evaluate teams is very flawed, it's a player ranking and this isn't the best way. You already know that. I only used it because I have nothing else. I trust the talent vs win percentage more. Though 50% is PER based, the rest is a stat based on multiple subjective ranking systems condensed. It's too subjective though.. I guess.
There's no other coach ranking system I know of. When it's done game by game. Well, it means nothing. When it's done in a season, it still means nothing. Five or more years it shows trends, 10 years... 15 years and if the same trends are consistent.. you have information.
We have 17 on Crean, he's been very consistent. Almost like clockwork, with the 10/11 and 13/14 seasons being the only outliers. He drastically underperformed in talent vs result in those 2 seasons. The rest he was barely under the line. His players produce, but his teams don't. He falls just short of ranking almost every year. In PER vs results it's even worse.
Look at this year, which everyone thought was a great job. 5th in talent rating to start, adj to 8th for JBr. 3rd (adj for JBr) conference. So the unbiased expectation was 8th nation, 3rd conference, conference semi, fourth seed tourney, elite eight.
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So PER undervalues defense? And that shows up in CTC's coaching ratings?
I can absolutely buy that. I don't think any of us have ever been under the delusion he's a good D coach. He was just lucky to have a few good D players here and there.
Serious question, no agenda: RMK's first 20 years at IU, what was his Team PER?
Because, during that period, he's the best coach I've ever seen. By a lot. Then the 3-point shot jacked things up a little bit, and the shot clock jacked things up a lot. Before the shot clock, his teams strangled the teams they were playing.
final thought ...
JBr and the team got better myth because defensive players like OG and JM took his minutes. They didn't take his minutes in the rotation. RJ, Nick Z and CH did. They instead took NZ and CH's..
JBr and the team got better myth because defensive players like OG and JM took his minutes. They didn't take his minutes in the rotation. RJ, Nick Z and CH did. They instead took NZ and CH's..
Yes, PEr is offense dominant, most stats are offensive stats and most defensive stats (with the exception of block shots) has no to little impact on winning or losing. The only way to evaluate defense is by using cross reference stats, like a +/-, or charting every possession, which no one does. There's also Def Win Shares, and a Def. Eff. Rating but none of them stand alone is a good stat.
We only go back to the 95/96 season.And, he was a positive coach even in those last years because he really didn't have the talent. He was also a positive effect coach at TT.
I bet if you were still watching IU hoops, your answer would be different.
It amazes me how consistently people are wrong about Self. I expect his 12 straight conference titles to be dismissed by CBLs, but on here? I'm a bit surprised. I understand what level the Big XII is, but winning 12 straight conference titles is unheard of in the modern era. Hell, not even Few could do it in the WCC. To put it in perspective, only 3 current coaches other than Self (Few, K & Izzo) have been to 12 consecutive NCAA tournaments.
He's had some bad NCAA beats, there is no denying that. But he has a title and if he stays in Lawrence and doesn't bolt for the NBA he will add another one or two before his career is over and he will go down as an all-time great.
Also, people tend to forget that at Illinois he won 2 Big Ten titles and set the table for Weber's run.
He's had some bad NCAA beats, there is no denying that. But he has a title and if he stays in Lawrence and doesn't bolt for the NBA he will add another one or two before his career is over and he will go down as an all-time great.
Also, people tend to forget that at Illinois he won 2 Big Ten titles and set the table for Weber's run.
Don't you know he has to win the Big 12 conference, the Big 12 tournament and make an elite 8 run or it doesn't mean shat?
Don't you know he has to win the Big 12 conference, the Big 12 tournament and make an elite 8 run or it doesn't mean shat?
I think it's fair to criticize his NCAA performance, but he's had a hell of a career so far. And while he has had good talent, he hasn't had boatloads of good NBA players on his rosters. This year was a good example. Self had a great team, but no real sure-fire NBA rotation players, and he lost to a damn good Nova team. No shame in that, especially because we all know Self is going to be there again next year with a Final Four quality team. And the year after that. And the year after that. Just like he has for the past 15 seasons.
As for his X's and O's, most college coaches are just meh compared to the guys in the NBA. Look at Donovan. He was a GREAT college coach who made Florida into a power. He goes to the NBA and has been roasted all season for being a dumb X's and O's coach.
He's had a lotta guys go to The League .....
Cole Aldrich 11th, New Orleans Hornets, 2010 NBA Draft Thunder, Rockets, Kings, Knicks, Clippers
Darrell Arthur 27th, Memphis Grizzlies, 2008 NBA Draft Grizzlies, Nuggets
Tarik Black Undrafted Rockets, Lakers
Sherron Collins Undrafted Bobcats
Mario Chalmers 34th, Miami Heat, 2008 NBA Draft Heat, Grizzlies
Joel Embiid 3rd, Philadelphia 76ers, 2014 NBA Draft 76ers
Xavier Henry 12th, Memphis Grizzlies, 2010 NBA Draft Grizzlies, Hornets, Lakers
Darnell Jackson 52nd, Miami Heat, 2008 NBA Draft Cavaliers, Bucks, Kings
Sasha Kaun 56th, Seattle SuperSonics, 2008 NBA Draft CSKA Moscow, Cavaliers
Keith Langford Undrafted Spurs, Virtus Bologna, BC Khimki
Ben McLemore 7th, Sacramento Kings, 2013 NBA Draft Kings
Aaron Miles Undrafted Warriors, Élan Béarnais Pau-Orthez,
CB Sevilla, Panionios B.C., Aris BC
Marcus Morris 14th, Houston Rockets, 2011 NBA Draft Rockets, Suns, Pistons
Markieff Morris 13th, Phoenix Suns, 2011 NBA Draft Suns, Wizards
Russell Robinson Undrafted Rockets, Trabzonspor
Thomas Robinson 5th, Sacramento Kings, 2012 NBA Draft Kings, Rockets, Trail Blazers, 76ers, Nets
Brandon Rush 13th, Indiana Pacers, 2008 NBA Draft Pacers, Warriors, Jazz
Josh Selby 49th, Memphis Grizzlies, 2011 NBA Draft Grizzlies
Wayne Simien 29th, Miami Heat, 2005 NBA Draft Heat
Tyshawn Taylor 41st, Brooklyn Nets, 2012 NBA Draft Nets
Andrew Wiggins 1st, Cleveland Cavaliers, 2014 NBA Draft Timberwolves
Jeff Withey 39th, Portland Trail Blazers, 2013 NBA Draft Pelicans, Jazz
Julian Wright 13th, New Orleans Hornets, 2007 NBA Draft Hornets, Raptors
..... and he's mastered the E8, but he's also lost twice in the 1st round and 3 times in the 2nd round of the tournament while he's been at Kansas. As I said before, I think if he coached in a better conference, it would help him be a better coach.
O, Warrison, you to a certain extent. Just curious, who would your top-6 coaches be right now? I'd go:
1. K
2. Pitino
3. Izzo
4. Self
5. Cal
6. Williams
There are other good guys like Marshall and Bennett who may actually be better X's and O's guys than the above-listed coaches, but their resumes don't nearly compare.
To an extent? No not really.
The best way to judge coaches is to look at their winning percentage and championships. That generally says it all.
but ...
If you want to know who has the most impact vs talent. ie who does the mostest with the leastest. Currently Marshall, but Pitino, K, Beilein, Steve Fisher all rate highly. Stevens and Ryan would top the list if they were coaching. Self rates very high, like I said above he still wins during rebuild years.
Cal and Roy Williams need extreme talent to win. Both are cookie cutter coaches, meaning they need every position filled with talent to succeed. A "cookie cutter lineup".
Sure, he got some guys into the league, but how many of those guys actually contribute/contributed much in the NBA? I never said he hasn't had talent, but it hasn't been Cal, Roy or K-level talent.
And all the greats take First and Second Round loses. K has 4 First Round Losses and 5 Second Round losses. Even Knight had First and Second Round losses before his "collapse" from 1994-95 through the end of his IU tenure.
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