Last night Pelosi and Schumer say they have agreed to a deal

[crazed_hoosier2]

I should also mention that, if there is one advantage that a wall would have (though I doubt it will happen), it's that it would be difficult to undo.

And, whatever does get done on border security, I'm about 100% confident that the effort to weaken it will begin no later than when there's a new President (and/or Congress).

There's a reason that it's never gotten very far. And that reason is that there are interests who like it just the way it is. They're never very vocal about taking that position -- because it would be politically toxic. But that doesn't mean they aren't constantly working to keep the border porous.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You think it's the Dems that changed, not Trump? Ok then.

How can anyone know if Trump has changed? He is all over the place on most issues.

As I said above, I am not a bit surprised he would cozy up to the Democrats. So in that respect, I think there is no change from some of the things he said during the campaign about relationships and deals.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Seems like some people are trying to give Trump credit for having this all planned out. Here's Dan Pfeiffer: Trump is unpredictable not because he is an independent, wily genius, but because he has no idea what he is doing and doesn't bother to learn.

Sounds a lot more likely.

He signaled this during the campaign. I commented about it a few times. Too many people were more concerned with meaningless tweets, language and behavior.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Do I think it would be cost effective?

I know everyone questions the cost of the wall (on face values) but, Have they added into their ROI the cost of NOT having to catch/ detain/ house/ give due process/ transport back.... the illegal people? What is the value of that burden? Seems like it had us in knots, let alone the honestly quantitative figure. Shoot first, then yell freeze. Dead men don't testify, hell or appear for that matter.

 

[TheVegasHoosier]

He signaled this during the campaign. I commented about it a few times. Too many people were more concerned with meaningless tweets, language and behavior.

How was his behavior "meaningless"?

The dude is a certified psychopath who ONLY cares about his ego......and NOTHING else.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Too many people were more concerned with meaningless tweets, language and behavior.

Like Covefe? Who'da thunk it.

 

[hoosboot]

And I was right. Every indication is that the DACA bill will include border security measures. Ryan has said it would, the White House has said it would, and neither Schumer nor Pelosi have denied it.

And to say there was no tizzy about Trump's DACA cancellation is just absurd. There was even a march here in Evansville....for something that isn't going away.

I do think that some people just bought into the manufactured outrage. But most of it was clearly manufactured...given that the POTUS and leaders from both parties in both houses have said they will legislate a replacement.

My point is simply that, when it comes to Trump's political opponents and critics, it's all outrage all the time....even in such cases where it so obviously makes no sense. "HE'S GOING TO TURN DACA FROM A LEGALLY DUBIOUS EXECUTIVE ACTION INTO A LEGALLY SOUND STATUTE!!! GRAB THE DRUMS, PLACARDS, AND PITCHFORKS!!!"

And that strategy isn't working, BTW.

Thank goodness for the calculated tizzy that pressured a rudderless and increasingly marginalized President Trump to give Democrats the DACA victory that they sought.

Without that pressure, believe me, some people who would know have said that things for Dreamers would have been very bad. But, now people will be very happy. Very. Because this DACA is excellent and the very best. A beautiful DACA.

 

[cosmickid]

I do understand the concerns that some have that we'll do this and then not secure the border and have to give "amnesty" again in 20 years.

What I don't agree with is the idea that we can't do anything as far as bringing people out of the shadows until we "build a wall" and "prove the border is 100% secure", since that's going to take ten years at the least.

We can take steps to do both at the same time.

Also there's places along the border where a physical fence is appropriate and places where it's not (and locals don't want a fence for various reason), so a physical wall is a stupid idea.



I think a lot of us on the left underestimated that changing what Trump hears and who he speaks to (by getting rid of Priebus/Bannon) will change his decision-making a bit.

Bannon clearly had no interest in compromising on anything ever (except maybe infrastructure where mainstream Republicans didn't want a deal), and Priebus is a Ryan flunkie.

It's as if Bannon read your post and felt the need to come out with something to illustrate exactly how rigid and diametrically opposed he is to anything approaching meaningful immigration reform.Screaming from Breitbart's front page today...

Bannon turns on Trump

 

[cosmickid]

Thank goodness for the calculated tizzy that pressured a rudderless and increasingly marginalized President Trump to give Democrats the DACA victory that they sought.

Without that pressure, believe me, some people who would know have said that things for Dreamers would have been very bad. But, now people will be very happy. Very. Because this DACA is excellent and the very best. A beautiful DACA.

Do you think he's trying to court some friendships to steel against what Mueller is going to find? Word today is that Flynn Jr is becoming a subject of interest...

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Thank goodness for the calculated tizzy that pressured a rudderless and increasingly marginalized President Trump to give Democrats the DACA victory that they sought.

Without that pressure, believe me, some people who would know have said that things for Dreamers would have been very bad. But, now people will be very happy. Very. Because this DACA is excellent and the very best. A beautiful DACA.

Trump is gonna deal his way into impeachment.

How does one get impeached?
Colude with a foreign government? No.
Obstruct justice? No.
Have a hard time denouncing Nazis? No.

Make deals with the other side? We'll see. Republican media, including republican leaders like Limbaugh, are starting to be not so friendly.

 

[TheVegasHoosier]

Trump is gonna deal his way into impeachment.

How does one get impeached?
Colude with a foreign government? No.
Obstruct justice? No.
Have a hard time denouncing Nazis? No.

Make deals with the other side? We'll see. Republican media, including republican leaders like Limbaugh, are starting to be not so friendly.

Coulter actually mentioned impeachment.

It's hilarious how these Righties look the way on everything yet get MAD if he back tracks on his stupid wall.

A local Righty radio host has been smooching Trump's bare butt for months and months and months.......yet this morning, was whining how he "LIED ABOUT THE WALL."

It was hilarious.

As you said........collude with Russia? So what? Defend Nazi's? Meh. Piss off all our allies? No biggie.

But......damnit.......refuse to deport some kids and not build a wall? GET RID OF HIM!!!

 

[MrBing]

Coulter actually mentioned impeachment.

It's hilarious how these Righties look the way on everything yet get MAD if he back tracks on his stupid wall.

A local Righty radio host has been smooching Trump's bare butt for months and months and months.......yet this morning, was whining how he "LIED ABOUT THE WALL."

It was hilarious.

As you said........collude with Russia? So what? Defend Nazi's? Meh. Piss off all our allies? No biggie.

But......damnit.......refuse to deport some kids and not build a wall? GET RID OF HIM!!!

I don't care why they get rid of him. If they get rid of him I'll be good with that.

 

[RBB89]

I know everyone questions the cost of the wall (on face values) but, Have they added into their ROI the cost of NOT having to catch/ detain/ house/ give due process/ transport back.... the illegal people? What is the value of that burden? Seems like it had us in knots, let alone the honestly quantitative figure. Shoot first, then yell freeze. Dead men don't testify, hell or appear for that matter.

The cost will be absurd, but you understand that just trying to build a physical wall along the entire border is about 100% more absurd, right? There are geographical areas where it just cannot happen, and there are many areas where the landowners will not let it happen. And again, even if they built it, people will still get over it. Holding on to this dumb idea of a wall as some genius concept truly boggles my mind. Do you seriously not understand the logistics of a project like this? It's a complete waste of time and money.

 

[RBB89]

I should also mention that, if there is one advantage that a wall would have (though I doubt it will happen), it's that it would be difficult to undo.

And, whatever does get done on border security, I'm about 100% confident that the effort to weaken it will begin no later than when there's a new President (and/or Congress).

There's a reason that it's never gotten very far. And that reason is that there are interests who like it just the way it is. They're never very vocal about taking that position -- because it would be politically toxic. But that doesn't mean they aren't constantly working to keep the border porous.

There's also the fact that trying to build a border wall along that entire border is an unbelievably stupid idea.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

There's also the fact they trying to build a border wall along that entire border is an unbelievably stupid idea.

I don't know if it's "stupid" really. I mean, we do already have ~600 miles of barriers in place...which is about 1/3 of the total length of the border. But a 2000 mile solid material wall certainly strikes me as cost prohibitive. It also strikes me as unnecessarily primitive in this day and age. This isn't the Ming Dynasty.

I really don't think it's going to end up happening. And that's OK -- either way, it does seem likely to finally get our policymakers off their butts on dealing with the border. There's no question to me that we could, if we were so inclined, do a whole lot better securing it. The problem has never been that we couldn't, but that we've never made the decision to.

Hopefully that's finally about to change.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

I don't care why they get rid of him. If they get rid of him I'll be good with that.

Not necessarily. Trump is a fascist, a white supremacist, and a generally cruel person who only cares about himself, but he's also a complete idiot who has no idea what he's doing. Pence is a competent version of republican extremism.

 

[TheVegasHoosier]

Not necessarily. Trump is a fascist, a white supremacist, and a generally cruel person who only cares about himself, but he's also a complete idiot who has no idea what he's doing. Pence is a competent version of republican extremism.

True, however:

1) I still want Trump to be kicked out just so he's humiliated.

2) There's some rumblings Pence will be caught in the Russian probe too as he knew the real reason Comey was being fired and helped cover it up (obstruction)

3) It might actually help Dems if people saw how truly crazy people like Pence are and get them off their lazy butts to vote.

 

[Lucy01]

True, however:

1) I still want Trump to be kicked out just so he's humiliated.

2) There's some rumblings Pence will be caught in the Russian probe too as he knew the real reason Comey was being fired and helped cover it up (obstruction)

3) It might actually help Dems if people saw how truly crazy people like Pence are and get them off their lazy butts to vote.

That's a little extreme don't you think?

 

[Fro]

Not necessarily. Trump is a fascist, a white supremacist, and a generally cruel person who only cares about himself, but he's also a complete idiot who has no idea what he's doing. Pence is a competent version of republican extremism.

Competent compared to Trump for sure, but Pence pretty much got rolled by local Republicans here in Indiana instead of leading like Mitch Daniels did. He wasn't setting policy or submitting plans, he was a rubber stamp for what the Statehouse came up with.

 

[Noodle]

I don't know if it's "stupid" really. I mean, we do already have ~600 miles of barriers in place...which is about 1/3 of the total length of the border. But a 2000 mile solid material wall certainly strikes me as cost prohibitive. It also strikes me as unnecessarily primitive in this day and age. This isn't the Ming Dynasty.

I really don't think it's going to end up happening. And that's OK -- either way, it does seem likely to finally get our policymakers off their butts on dealing with the border. There's no question to me that we could, if we were so inclined, do a whole lot better securing it. The problem has never been that we couldn't, but that we've never made the decision to.

Hopefully that's finally about to change.

Yes, it's stupid--especially a "sold wall." And 2,000 miles of a solid wall is pure insanity--and all but impossible in some stretches of our border.

 

[VanPastorMan]

On DACA and more border security , but without a wall. This morning Trump tweets positive things about DACA, but says they are going ahead on a wall and they didn't come to an agreement. I was skeptical when I heard the deal last evening. I think Trump often agrees with whoever he has spoken to last. Some of his base, as you can imagine, was most unhappy with last night's news, which may be the reason for the morning pivot.

The deal was not finalized last night. Trump,Pelosi, and Schumer said so. The President said nothing gets done without funding for the Wall to be found. Schumer eluded to it by calling it, "Border Security".

 

[zeke4ahs]

The deal was not finalized last night. Trump,Pelosi, and Schumer said so. The President said nothing gets done without funding for the Wall to be found. Schumer eluded to it by calling it, "Border Security".

No, there are all types of border security that have zero to do with a wall.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

The deal was not finalized last night. Trump,Pelosi, and Schumer said so. The President said nothing gets done without funding for the Wall to be found. Schumer eluded to it by calling it, "Border Security".

Hate to be that guy....but it's alluded, not eluded.

Also, "Border Security" and "The Wall" are not the same thing. The former is the ends, the latter is one specific means to it. But there are other ones, and ones that are far likelier to find support in Congress.

FWIW, I'll believe this when I see it. I remember when Rubio assured people that any comprehensive immigration reform bill that he supported would have to include a "border first" provision. The Senator he worked most closely with was none other than Chuck Schumer. And, not surprisingly, the bill the Senate actually passed gave short shrift to border security...and it certainly didn't predicate that security benchmarks be met in order to trigger the normalization mechanisms.

 

[VanPastorMan]

Hate to be that guy....but it's alluded, not eluded.

Also, "Border Security" and "The Wall" are not the same thing. The former is the ends, the latter is one specific means to it. But there are other ones, and ones that are far likelier to find support in Congress.

FWIW, I'll believe this when I see it. I remember when Rubio assured people that any comprehensive immigration reform bill that he supported would have to include a "border first" provision. The Senator he worked most closely with was none other than Chuck Schumer. And, not surprisingly, the bill the Senate actually passed gave short shrift to border security...and it certainly didn't predicate that security benchmarks be met in order to trigger the normalization mechanisms.

You are correct about the mispelling. It will be interesting to see what Schumer meant exactly.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

You are correct about the mispelling. It will be interesting to see what Schumer meant exactly.

Misspelling. Heh.

Well, I can assure you that he wasn't referring to a wall.

If history is any guide, he didn't mean terribly much. But, then, that was during a different presidency.

 

[MrBing]

Not necessarily. Trump is a fascist, a white supremacist, and a generally cruel person who only cares about himself, but he's also a complete idiot who has no idea what he's doing. Pence is a competent version of republican extremism.

I would be happy to see Trump go and Pence replace him. I don't like Pence either but I think he's much more mentally stable and that's less scary all around. We can vote Pence out in 2020.