Last night Pelosi and Schumer say they have agreed to a deal

[zeke4ahs]

On DACA and more border security , but without a wall. This morning Trump tweets positive things about DACA, but says they are going ahead on a wall and they didn't come to an agreement. I was skeptical when I heard the deal last evening. I think Trump often agrees with whoever he has spoken to last. Some of his base, as you can imagine, was most unhappy with last night's news, which may be the reason for the morning pivot.

 

[Lucy01]

On DACA and more border security , but without a wall. This morning Trump tweets positive things about DACA, but says they are going ahead on a wall and they didn't come to an agreement. I was skeptical when I heard the deal last evening. I think Trump often agrees with whoever he has spoken to last. Some of his base, as you can imagine, was most unhappy with last night's news, which may be the reason for the morning pivot.

I know I was very disappointed with the President!

 

[Noodle]

On DACA and more border security , but without a wall. This morning Trump tweets positive things about DACA, but says they are going ahead on a wall and they didn't come to an agreement. I was skeptical when I heard the deal last evening. I think Trump often agrees with whoever he has spoken to last. Some of his base, as you can imagine, was most unhappy with last night's news, which may be the reason for the morning pivot.

As I said in a previous thread, Trump will go along with making DACA, etc. permanent. The problem, though, is that the Democrats spouted off about the wall not being part of the deal. The DACA fix will get done, but now Trump needs to a little time to make it clear that he has not given up on his wall, maybe even taking a few light jabs at Schumer et al.

The whole thing is getting very fascinating to watch, as clearly Trump has pivoted away from the Republicans. It's hard to comprehend that he didn't even invite a single Republican to the meeting on DACA, but it's Trump.

In any event, the great news is that it looks like DACA will be made permanent--perhaps less than a month after Trump announced the end of the EO, sending everyone into a tizzy.

 

[Lucy01]

As I said in a previous thread, Trump will go along with making DACA, etc. permanent. The problem, though, is that the Democrats spouted off about the wall not being part of the deal. The DACA fix will get done, but now Trump needs to a little time to make it clear that he has not given up on his wall, maybe even taking a few light jabs at Schumer et al.

The whole thing is getting very fascinating to watch, as clearly Trump has pivoted away from the Republicans. It's hard to comprehend that he didn't even invite a single Republican to the meeting on DACA, but it's Trump.

In any event, the great news is that it looks like DACA will be made permanent--perhaps less than a month after Trump announced the end of the EO, sending everyone into a tizzy.

I voted for President Trump because he's anti-abortion.

 

[zeke4ahs]

As I said in a previous thread, Trump will go along with making DACA, etc. permanent. The problem, though, is that the Democrats spouted off about the wall not being part of the deal. The DACA fix will get done, but now Trump needs to a little time to make it clear that he has not given up on his wall, maybe even taking a few light jabs at Schumer et al.

The whole thing is getting very fascinating to watch, as clearly Trump has pivoted away from the Republicans. It's hard to comprehend that he didn't even invite a single Republican to the meeting on DACA, but it's Trump.

In any event, the great news is that it looks like DACA will be made permanent--perhaps less than a month after Trump announced the end of the EO, sending everyone into a tizzy.

I agree. I think they just have to figure out how to handle him. If he is the one to make the announcement, he can make it look like he came out the winner. As soon as I heard the first reports coming from Schumer and Pelosi, I thought it was a mistake. Let him announce it so he can claim the credit. As long as it gets done, it doesn't matter. This is going to be interesting to watch.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

As I said in a previous thread, Trump will go along with making DACA, etc. permanent. The problem, though, is that the Democrats spouted off about the wall not being part of the deal. The DACA fix will get done, but now Trump needs to a little time to make it clear that he has not given up on his wall, maybe even taking a few light jabs at Schumer et al.

The whole thing is getting very fascinating to watch, as clearly Trump has pivoted away from the Republicans. It's hard to comprehend that he didn't even invite a single Republican to the meeting on DACA, but it's Trump.

In any event, the great news is that it looks like DACA will be made permanent--perhaps less than a month after Trump announced the end of the EO, sending everyone into a tizzy.

Unhinged tizzies have become the norm these days. Ending the (likely unlawful) executive-action version of DACA was very clearly the right thing to do. It never should've been done in the first place. But, Trump was the one who undid it....which automatically means tizzy-time.

A lot of people nowadays are far more concerned with the "what" than they are with the "how." And that's a problem -- because, in a nation of laws, the "how" matters. Some ends do indeed justify some means. But not all ends justify all means.

I'm not the least bit surprised to see, as I predicted, that the DACA deal will involve "border security" -- which, BTW, is typically the broader term I've used. It will be interesting to see precisely what those border security measures will amount to.

If past Congresses would've been serious about attaching genuine border security measures to any broader immigration reform measures, it's quite likely that Donald Trump would never have become president. And I don't know if they've figured that out yet. But, I'm telling you, there are powerful lobbies with significant vested interests in a porous border who will do whatever they can -- quietly, probably -- to make sure that it doesn't actually get secured.


As for the political implications of Trump "doing deals" with Schumer and Pelosi, I said months ago that if Congressional Republicans take a drubbing in 2018, it will have been their fault, not Donald Trump's. They've pretty clearly chosen to gum up the works rather than take the lead legislatively. And Trump did warn them that if they didn't work with him, he'd gladly cross the aisle and work with the Democrats.

I don't know how much of this is Ryan and McConnell's fault, really. Particularly in the Senate, it's no secret that, with such a slender majority, the McCain wing is small but powerful. Still, you'd think their colleagues would've seen this coming and done whatever they had to do to get them to at least stand aside.

Donald Trump is not, in any way, an ideologue. I've said this about him going back to the primaries. For better or worse, he's a dealmaker. He's also, effectively though not formally, our first independent president. And if he can't make a deal with his preferred group of collaborators, it's not hard to predict that he'll move on to his only other option.

 

[twenty02]

As I said in a previous thread, Trump will go along with making DACA, etc. permanent. The problem, though, is that the Democrats spouted off about the wall not being part of the deal. The DACA fix will get done, but now Trump needs to a little time to make it clear that he has not given up on his wall, maybe even taking a few light jabs at Schumer et al.

The whole thing is getting very fascinating to watch, as clearly Trump has pivoted away from the Republicans. It's hard to comprehend that he didn't even invite a single Republican to the meeting on DACA, but it's Trump.

In any event, the great news is that it looks like DACA will be made permanent--perhaps less than a month after Trump announced the end of the EO, sending everyone into a tizzy.

I don't think it's clear at all.....you still have to get the GOP leadership to bring bills to a vote.....strongly against the wishes of a lot of members.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I don't think it's clear at all.....you still have to get the GOP leadership to bring bills to a vote.....strongly against the wishes of a lot of members.

That's true. But I'm sure that will come down to the border measures in the bill -- which Ryan made clear will be attached before Trump's powwow with Schulosi. Ryan wasn't terribly specific, of course. But, as with most things, I'm sure it will come down to the particulars. It could make for some interesting political theater.

 

[Rockfish1]

Unhinged tizzies have become the norm these days. Ending the (likely unlawful) executive-action version of DACA was very clearly the right thing to do. It never should've been done in the first place. But, Trump was the one who undid it....which automatically means tizzy-time.

Spoken with your typical lack of empathy for people who aren't you. I mean, it's not like you or yours are imperiled, so others' dismay must be a "tizzy".

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Spoken with your typical lack of empathy for people who aren't you. I mean, it's not like you or yours are imperiled, so others' dismay must be a "tizzy".

Uh, no, that's not what I'm saying.

First of all, I don't fly into tizzies about much of anything -- whether I'm imperiled by it or not. And I don't typically hold those who do in very high esteem.

But this really isn't my point. My point is that it's been clear from the get-go that the core protections in DACA weren't going anywhere. Trump made that clear in WH communications, and followed that up with a perfectly reasonable 6-month notice to get this properly codified into law. Congressional leaders of both parties made it clear. Hell, even candidate Trump found cause to say that he'd work something out on the Dreamers.

But some people have become so reflexively tizzy-prone in the Trump era that it would seem they heard absolutely none of that. Based on some of the unhinged responses, all they seemed to hear was "ICE Agents will be coming for me today and I'm going to be deported." And they take to the streets in yet more marches and chants and all that jazz.

I'm sorry, but that's a tizzy any way you slice it. It was entirely divorced from the reality of what was and is going on.

 

[Rockfish1]

I'm sorry, but that's a tizzy any way you slice it. It was entirely divorced from the reality of what was and is going on.

You have no idea of "the reality of what was and is going on".

 

[Fro]

Reading Twitter, most of the Trump base seems to think the Dreamers will automatically get immediate citizenship and be able to vote.

https://www.nilc.org/issues/immigra...ions/dreamact/dream-act-2017-summary-and-faq/

Pretty much all the proposed bills have them getting a temp. green card (Conditional Resident Status) if they don't commit crimes, pass background check, are employed with HS diploma/GED/in college/military, and then in 5-10 years be able to apply for permanent resident status if they show fluency in English and haven't committed certain crimes. Then it'd be another 2-5 years before they can apply for citizenship.

 

[Rockfish1]

Reading Twitter, most of the Trump base seems to think the Dreamers will automatically get immediate citizenship and be able to vote.

https://www.nilc.org/issues/immigra...ions/dreamact/dream-act-2017-summary-and-faq/

Pretty much all the proposed bills have them getting a temp. green card (Conditional Resident Status) if they don't commit crimes, pass background check, are employed with HS diploma/GED/in college/military, and then in 5-10 years be able to apply for permanent resident status if they show fluency in English and haven't committed certain crimes. Then it'd be another 2-5 years before they can apply for citizenship.

In talking to people about this (mostly on social media) I routinely get pushback from people who assume that it would be easy for Dreamers to get citizenship if they wanted it. (Their intention is to suggest that Dreamers are a lazy, undeserving, and un-American lot, who don't deserve to stay here.) As your post recognizes, nothing could be further from the truth.

Under current law, Dreamers have no path to citizenship -- unless they're willing to leave the country for ten years before beginning the lengthy process your post describes. The frequency with which I hear otherwise from DACA opponents suggests that they're being misinformed by anti-immigrant sources.

 

[zeke4ahs]

In talking to people about this (mostly on social media) I routinely get pushback from people who assume that it would be easy for Dreamers to get citizenship if they wanted it. (Their intention is to suggest that Dreamers are a lazy, undeserving, and un-American lot, who don't deserve to stay here.) As your post recognizes, nothing could be further from the truth.

Under current law, Dreamers have no path to citizenship -- unless they're willing to leave the country for ten years before beginning the lengthy process your post describes. The frequency with which I hear otherwise from DACA opponents suggests that they're being misinformed by anti-immigrant sources.

Why is it people want to believe the worst? That everyone else is lazy, doesn't want to work, and is cheating them out of something. A friend posted yesterday about a woman in Florida with 8 children, getting $1500 per child from the government. Obviously a thing making social media rounds. I knew within the first two sentences that it was fake. Googled and posted it for him. I don't get why people automatically believe those silly letters, memes etc. I guess it reinforces what they actually believe anyway.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

As I said in a previous thread, Trump will go along with making DACA, etc. permanent. The problem, though, is that the Democrats spouted off about the wall not being part of the deal. The DACA fix will get done, but now Trump needs to a little time to make it clear that he has not given up on his wall, maybe even taking a few light jabs at Schumer et al.

The whole thing is getting very fascinating to watch, as clearly Trump has pivoted away from the Republicans. It's hard to comprehend that he didn't even invite a single Republican to the meeting on DACA, but it's Trump.

In any event, the great news is that it looks like DACA will be made permanent--perhaps less than a month after Trump announced the end of the EO, sending everyone into a tizzy.

This sort of thing is what I expected from Trump. A couple of things are at work here. He feels the sting from what he sees as a GOP fail on health care. There likely will be payback. He will also pivot towards a solution (deal) regardless of ideology. This is new. I think his whole DACA thing is being beautifully played. Don't know if that is Trump or Kelly, but it seems to be effective.

 

[Fro]

I do understand the concerns that some have that we'll do this and then not secure the border and have to give "amnesty" again in 20 years.

What I don't agree with is the idea that we can't do anything as far as bringing people out of the shadows until we "build a wall" and "prove the border is 100% secure", since that's going to take ten years at the least.

We can take steps to do both at the same time.

Also there's places along the border where a physical fence is appropriate and places where it's not (and locals don't want a fence for various reason), so a physical wall is a stupid idea.

This sort of thing is what I expected from Trump. A couple of things are at work here. He feels the sting from what he sees as a GOP fail on health care. There likely will be payback. He will also pivot towards a solution (deal) regardless of ideology. This is new. I think his whole DACA thing is being beautifully played. Don't know if that is Trump or Kelly, but it seems to be effective.

I think a lot of us on the left underestimated that changing what Trump hears and who he speaks to (by getting rid of Priebus/Bannon) will change his decision-making a bit.

Bannon clearly had no interest in compromising on anything ever (except maybe infrastructure where mainstream Republicans didn't want a deal), and Priebus is a Ryan flunkie.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I do understand the concerns that some have that we'll do this and then not secure the border and have to give "amnesty" again in 20 years.

What I don't agree with is the idea that we can't do anything as far as bringing people out of the shadows until we "build a wall" and "prove the border is 100% secure", since that's going to take ten years at the least.

We can take steps to do both at the same time.

Also there's places along the border where a physical fence is appropriate and places where it's not (and locals don't want a fence for various reason), so a physical wall is a stupid idea.



I think a lot of us on the left underestimated that changing what Trump hears and who he speaks to (by getting rid of Priebus/Bannon) will change his decision-making a bit.

Bannon clearly had no interest in compromising on anything ever (except maybe infrastructure where mainstream Republicans didn't want a deal), and Priebus is a Ryan flunkie.

Spicer and Priebus were obvious peace offering to the GOP establishment. It didn't work out as health care showed. I think DACA is more typical of Trump's M.O.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

You have no idea of "the reality of what was and is going on".

It seems a foregone conclusion that, however we get there, only two things are going to change here: the name of DACA and the reliability of the legality.

That's the reality of what's going on -- which is why the tizzy we're speaking of regarding DACA made no sense.

But I think you and I both know they weren't really about DACA and its future. If it were, nobody would've shown up.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

It seems a foregone conclusion that, however we get there, only two things are going to change here: the name of DACA and the reliability of the legality.

That's the reality of what's going on -- which is why the tizzy we're speaking of regarding DACA made no sense.

But I think you and I both know they weren't really about DACA and its future. If it were, nobody would've shown up.

This coming from the guy who last week thought DACA was Trump's great bargaining chip.

There is no tizzy here. There is only you going off on your standard self-righteous rant.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

As I said in a previous thread, Trump will go along with making DACA, etc. permanent. The problem, though, is that the Democrats spouted off about the wall not being part of the deal. The DACA fix will get done, but now Trump needs to a little time to make it clear that he has not given up on his wall, maybe even taking a few light jabs at Schumer et al.

The whole thing is getting very fascinating to watch, as clearly Trump has pivoted away from the Republicans. It's hard to comprehend that he didn't even invite a single Republican to the meeting on DACA, but it's Trump.

In any event, the great news is that it looks like DACA will be made permanent--perhaps less than a month after Trump announced the end of the EO, sending everyone into a tizzy.

Didn't Schumer even throw Trump a bone on the wall this morning to help him save face? I thought I heard something on CNN earlier.

 

[Noodle]

This sort of thing is what I expected from Trump. A couple of things are at work here. He feels the sting from what he sees as a GOP fail on health care. There likely will be payback. He will also pivot towards a solution (deal) regardless of ideology. This is new. I think his whole DACA thing is being beautifully played. Don't know if that is Trump or Kelly, but it seems to be effective.

I'm not ready to call this as "being beautifully played," as that would suggest that it's the result of a carefully crafted strategy rather than Trump getting pissed at Republicans and exacting some kind of revenge (or just plain dumb luck).

In any event, I also think that this might just help Republicans in 2018. Anyone can feel free to save this post and call me out on it later, but I do not believe that the Democrats will take either the House of the Senate in 2018.

 

[Noodle]

Didn't Schumer even throw Trump a bone on the wall this morning to help him save face? I thought I heard something on CNN earlier.

He sure did. And I thought it was a smart move on his part. When you get what you really wanted in the first place, don't screw it up by trying to make your counterpart look bad. Gloating is a surefire way to lose what you gained in a negotiation.

 

[TheVegasHoosier]

I think his whole DACA thing is being beautifully played. .

Is that why Coulter is screaming "impeachment" and Hannity, for the first time in his life, took his lips off Trump's bare butt and actually ripped him?

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

This coming from the guy who last week thought DACA was Trump's great bargaining chip.

There is no tizzy here. There is only you going off on your standard self-righteous rant.

And I was right. Every indication is that the DACA bill will include border security measures. Ryan has said it would, the White House has said it would, and neither Schumer nor Pelosi have denied it.

And to say there was no tizzy about Trump's DACA cancellation is just absurd. There was even a march here in Evansville....for something that isn't going away.

I do think that some people just bought into the manufactured outrage. But most of it was clearly manufactured...given that the POTUS and leaders from both parties in both houses have said they will legislate a replacement.

My point is simply that, when it comes to Trump's political opponents and critics, it's all outrage all the time....even in such cases where it so obviously makes no sense. "HE'S GOING TO TURN DACA FROM A LEGALLY DUBIOUS EXECUTIVE ACTION INTO A LEGALLY SOUND STATUTE!!! GRAB THE DRUMS, PLACARDS, AND PITCHFORKS!!!"

And that strategy isn't working, BTW.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

He sure did. And I thought it was a smart move on his part. When you get what you really wanted in the first place, don't screw it up by trying to make your counterpart look bad. Gloating is a surefire way to lose what you gained in a negotiation.

Agreed. Best way to get something from Trump is to publicly fluff him a bit.

 

[TheVegasHoosier]

And I was right. Every indication is that the DACA bill will include border security measures. .

Ummmmmmmmmm, that does not include his yuge beautiful wall.....which is what the cult is demanding.

 

[Fro]

I do think that some people just bought into the manufactured outrage. But most of it was clearly manufactured...given that the POTUS and leaders from both parties in both houses have said they will legislate a replacement.

My point is simply that, when it comes to Trump's political opponents and critics, it's all outrage all the time....even in such cases where it so obviously makes no sense. "HE'S GOING TO TURN DACA FROM A LEGALLY DUBIOUS EXECUTIVE ACTION INTO A LEGALLY SOUND STATUTE!!! GRAB THE DRUMS, PLACARDS, AND PITCHFORKS!!!"

And that strategy isn't working, BTW.

I wouldn't assume that nothing is going away until it's a law. It still has to get through the House. If I were a dreamer or a latino with family in that situation I definitely wouldn't trust Trump a couple weeks into a "pivot".

Without that activism and pressure nothing's getting done.

 

[Rockfish1]

I wouldn't assume that nothing is going away until it's a law. It still has to get through the House. If I were a dreamer or a latino with family in that situation I definitely wouldn't trust Trump a couple weeks into a "pivot".

Without that activism and pressure nothing's getting done.

I hadn't previously said so here, but my son-in-law is a Dreamer, and the claim that there's only manufactured outrage is clueless happy horseshit. Tamping down my own very real outrage, it's all I can do to refrain from suggesting that callous assholes perform an anatomically impossible act.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I'm not ready to call this as "being beautifully played," as that would suggest that it's the result of a carefully crafted strategy rather than Trump getting pissed at Republicans and exacting some kind of revenge (or just plain dumb luck).

In any event, I also think that this might just help Republicans in 2018. Anyone can feel free to save this post and call me out on it later, but I do not believe that the Democrats will take either the House of the Senate in 2018.

I'll go along with winning ugly. That is probably a better description. But I still think his moves were calculated and not spontaneous.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Agreed. Best way to get something from Trump is to publicly fluff him a bit.

That's a universal rule for any negotiation.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I'm not ready to call this as "being beautifully played," as that would suggest that it's the result of a carefully crafted strategy rather than Trump getting pissed at Republicans and exacting some kind of revenge (or just plain dumb luck).

Besides revenge and luck, it's also possibly simply ego. Trump wants to be known as a President who did things, and he's already decided that won't happen if he only works with the GOP.

 

[zeke4ahs]

This coming from the guy who last week thought DACA was Trump's great bargaining chip.

There is no tizzy here. There is only you going off on your standard self-righteous rant.

And I was right. Every indication is that the DACA bill will include border security measures. Ryan has said it would, the White House has said it would, and neither Schumer nor Pelosi have denied it.

And to say there was no tizzy about Trump's DACA cancellation is just absurd. There was even a march here in Evansville....for something that isn't going away.

I do think that some people just bought into the manufactured outrage. But most of it was clearly manufactured...given that the POTUS and leaders from both parties in both houses have said they will legislate a replacement.

My point is simply that, when it comes to Trump's political opponents and critics, it's all outrage all the time....even in such cases where it so obviously makes no sense. "HE'S GOING TO TURN DACA FROM A LEGALLY DUBIOUS EXECUTIVE ACTION INTO A LEGALLY SOUND STATUTE!!! GRAB THE DRUMS, PLACARDS, AND PITCHFORKS!!!"

And that strategy isn't working, BTW.

Jeff Sessions ideas and public announcement seemed to be very different.

 

[37Hoosier]

Uh, no, that's not what I'm saying.

First of all, I don't fly into tizzies about much of anything -- whether I'm imperiled by it or not. And I don't typically hold those who do in very high esteem.

But this really isn't my point. My point is that it's been clear from the get-go that the core protections in DACA weren't going anywhere. Trump made that clear in WH communications, and followed that up with a perfectly reasonable 6-month notice to get this properly codified into law. Congressional leaders of both parties made it clear. Hell, even candidate Trump found cause to say that he'd work something out on the Dreamers.

But some people have become so reflexively tizzy-prone in the Trump era that it would seem they heard absolutely none of that. Based on some of the unhinged responses, all they seemed to hear was "ICE Agents will be coming for me today and I'm going to be deported." And they take to the streets in yet more marches and chants and all that jazz.

I'm sorry, but that's a tizzy any way you slice it. It was entirely divorced from the reality of what was and is going on.

in
Well, tizzy aside, how can anyone know what is truly going on

Uh, no, that's not what I'm saying.

First of all, I don't fly into tizzies about much of anything -- whether I'm imperiled by it or not. And I don't typically hold those who do in very high esteem.

But this really isn't my point. My point is that it's been clear from the get-go that the core protections in DACA weren't going anywhere. Trump made that clear in WH communications, and followed that up with a perfectly reasonable 6-month notice to get this properly codified into law. Congressional leaders of both parties made it clear. Hell, even candidate Trump found cause to say that he'd work something out on the Dreamers.

But some people have become so reflexively tizzy-prone in the Trump era that it would seem they heard absolutely none of that. Based on some of the unhinged responses, all they seemed to hear was "ICE Agents will be coming for me today and I'm going to be deported." And they take to the streets in yet more marches and chants and all that jazz.

I'm sorry, but that's a tizzy any way you slice it. It was entirely divorced from the reality of what was and is going on.

Well, tizzy aside, how can anyone know what is going on in that buffoon's head?
He basically lies about most everything, flip flops and contradicts himself repeatedly on most matters, and is erratic in every sense of the word.

Why would anyone with a REAL stake in the matter not be concerned, march, hold assemblies, call their congressperson, whatever it takes to have their opinion(s) on record. With this fool at the helm everything word he utters is nearly worthless, so whatever you want to call it....if I were effected I would be motivated, you would be foolish to take this man at his word. He has no moral compass or ethical standards at all.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Besides revenge and luck, it's also possibly simply ego. Trump wants to be known as a President who did things, and he's already decided that won't happen if he only works with the GOP.

Working with congress, whether it is the GOP, the Dems, or both shows more executive ability than the pen and phone technique.

No matter what happens, I am grateful that the democrats seem to have gotten past the "Resist" mind set.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Working with congress, whether it is the GOP, the Dems, or both shows more executive ability than the pen and phone technique.

No matter what happens, I am grateful that the democrats seem to have gotten past the "Resist" mind set.

You think it's the Dems that changed, not Trump? Ok then.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Ummmmmmmmmm, that does not include his yuge beautiful wall.....which is what the cult is demanding.

So what? The aim here is to make it sufficiently difficult for people to illegally cross the border.

How that's accomplished is secondary, at best, to that it's accomplished. And anybody who doesn't realize that isn't worth paying attention to.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

in
Well, tizzy aside, how can anyone know what is truly going on


Well, tizzy aside, how can anyone know what is going on in that buffoon's head?
He basically lies about most everything, flip flops and contradicts himself repeatedly on most matters, and is erratic in every sense of the word.

Why would anyone with a REAL stake in the matter not be concerned, march, hold assemblies, call their congressperson, whatever it takes to have their opinion(s) on record. With this fool at the helm everything word he utters is nearly worthless, so whatever you want to call it....if I were effected I would be motivated, you would be foolish to take this man at his word. He has no moral compass or ethical standards at all.

Meh....if he refuses to sign a bill, then I'd understand outrage. But over canceling an executive action that probably wouldn't have survived the courts....in favor of legislation that would?

Pfft. Any "dreamer" who's genuinely fearful of deportation has been sold a bill of goods.

As for those illegals who aren't dreamers, well they have cause to be nervous. And why shouldn't they be? Shouldn't anybody who's violating the law be nervous about the prospect of being caught and appropriately dealt with?

 

[TheVegasHoosier]

So what? The aim here is to make it sufficiently difficult for people to illegally cross the border.

How that's accomplished is secondary, at best, to that it's accomplished. And anybody who doesn't realize that isn't worth paying attention to.

And where is your proof this new "robust new vague system" will do that?

The fact is, Trump pushed that wall more than anything else. Coulter said as long as they got the wall, she wouldn't care about anything else.

Yet 5 seconds after he won, he's begging the Mexican Prez to shut up about the wall and doesn't push for it at all.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

And where is your proof this new "robust new vague system" will do that?

The fact is, Trump pushed that wall more than anything else. Coulter said as long as they got the wall, she wouldn't care about anything else.

Yet 5 seconds after he won, he's begging the Mexican Prez to shut up about the wall and doesn't push for it at all.

I have no proof of anything...there's no specific proposal as yet. My point is that securing the border is -- or, at least, should be -- the goal. It's the ball we should be keeping our eye on. That's why you'll always see me using the term "border security" rather than "the wall."

Do I think a wall would be an effective way to enhance border security? Yeah. Do I think it would be cost effective? Almost certainly not. Do I think we can find an array of solutions that would enhance security as well (or even better) that would be cost effective? Sure, I think so.

Do I think there are powerful (and not so powerful) interests who don't want a secured border and are, as such, likely to oppose anything -- a wall or otherwise -- that might accomplish that? You bet I do.

So I can't speak for Ann Coulter or anybody else. I'm not her. She's entitled to her opinions. I'm entitled to mine. And nowhere does it say that I have to agree with her or otherwise defend her positions or comments.

What's important is that we effectively (and cost effectively) secure the border...not how we go about doing it.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Seems like some people are trying to give Trump credit for having this all planned out. Here's Dan Pfeiffer: Trump is unpredictable not because he is an independent, wily genius, but because he has no idea what he is doing and doesn't bother to learn.

Sounds a lot more likely.