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Las Vegas shooting: 50 people killed in Mandalay Bay attack

We might have a better debate if Republicans would allow federal funding for research into gun violence:

But one reason the positions are so intractable is that no one really knows what works to prevent gun deaths. Gun-control research in the United States essentially came to a standstill in 1996.

After 21 years, the science is stale.

“In the area of what works to prevent shootings, we know almost nothing,” Mark Rosenberg, who, in the mid-1990s, led the CDC's gun-violence research efforts, said shortly after the San Bernardino shooting in 2015.

In 1996, the Republican-majority Congress threatened to strip funding from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention unless it stopped funding research into firearm injuries and deaths. The National Rifle Association accused the CDC of promoting gun control. As a result, the CDC stopped funding gun-control research — which had a chilling effect far beyond the agency, drying up money for almost all public health studies of the issue nationwide.

. . . That hasn't stopped the rallying cry for “common-sense gun control.” But, as Rosenberg pointed out, we don't know what that looks like. Maybe background checks are not the answer. Maybe allowing guns on college campuses makes those places safer. Maybe there is a way to stop a single gunman from killing and wounding hundreds of people at a concert in Las Vegas.

But, many advocates say, it's impossible to have an honest debate about preventing gun violence when we can't study the issue.

Everyone agrees the Las Vegas shooting was a tragedy. But no one knows what might work to prevent the next one.

“If we get better data, we could get a lot of traction on this,” said Jennifer Doleac, an assistant professor of public policy at the University of Virginia, who has used gunfire-detection technology deployed in many cities to study how often guns are fired. “It's just so political.”
And this is defended with the spurious argument that a different agency ought to do the research that Republicans won't allow to be done at all.
That's also a good point, but there are some things we do know about gun deaths already. We know that two-thirds of the people killed by a gun this year will pull the trigger themselves. Of the rest, about fifteen percent will be women killed by their partners, and almost ten percent will be killed by law enforcement. Now, I'm not saying I have the answers myself, but the restriction on gun research - while stupid - isn't preventing us from looking for ways to better identify and counsel potential suicides, or addressing what remains an epidemic of domestic violence in our country, or exploring new policing methods that might be less likely to lead to deadly force.

Maybe we're doing the best we can, and just failing, but based on the relative lack of violence in other western countries, I doubt it. It seems more likely to me that with some aspects of this problem, we're just suffering from a lack of the necessary will to try.
 
We might have a better debate if Republicans would allow federal funding for research into gun violence:

But one reason the positions are so intractable is that no one really knows what works to prevent gun deaths. Gun-control research in the United States essentially came to a standstill in 1996.

After 21 years, the science is stale.

“In the area of what works to prevent shootings, we know almost nothing,” Mark Rosenberg, who, in the mid-1990s, led the CDC's gun-violence research efforts, said shortly after the San Bernardino shooting in 2015.

In 1996, the Republican-majority Congress threatened to strip funding from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention unless it stopped funding research into firearm injuries and deaths. The National Rifle Association accused the CDC of promoting gun control. As a result, the CDC stopped funding gun-control research — which had a chilling effect far beyond the agency, drying up money for almost all public health studies of the issue nationwide.

. . . That hasn't stopped the rallying cry for “common-sense gun control.” But, as Rosenberg pointed out, we don't know what that looks like. Maybe background checks are not the answer. Maybe allowing guns on college campuses makes those places safer. Maybe there is a way to stop a single gunman from killing and wounding hundreds of people at a concert in Las Vegas.

But, many advocates say, it's impossible to have an honest debate about preventing gun violence when we can't study the issue.

Everyone agrees the Las Vegas shooting was a tragedy. But no one knows what might work to prevent the next one.

“If we get better data, we could get a lot of traction on this,” said Jennifer Doleac, an assistant professor of public policy at the University of Virginia, who has used gunfire-detection technology deployed in many cities to study how often guns are fired. “It's just so political.”
And this is defended with the spurious argument that a different agency ought to do the research that Republicans won't allow to be done at all.

The Republican who wrote the law would later oppose it. He said it was never his intent to cut off all research.
 
As I have observed Trump over the last few years I have seen a change in the man. He was a despicable man who was full of himself, but he has been humbled. He might not be as humble as you would like. Obviously he stands up for what he believes in and does it in a way that Presidents usually don't do by tweeting etc. But he has changed.


Hahaha. You are a gem
 
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That's also a good point, but there are some things we do know about gun deaths already. We know that two-thirds of the people killed by a gun this year will pull the trigger themselves. Of the rest, about fifteen percent will be women killed by their partners, and almost ten percent will be killed by law enforcement. Now, I'm not saying I have the answers myself, but the restriction on gun research - while stupid - isn't preventing us from looking for ways to better identify and counsel potential suicides, or addressing what remains an epidemic of domestic violence in our country, or exploring new policing methods that might be less likely to lead to deadly force.

Maybe we're doing the best we can, and just failing, but based on the relative lack of violence in other western countries, I doubt it. It seems more likely to me that with some aspects of this problem, we're just suffering from a lack of the necessary will to try.

We have a lot of will to try. But we are thwarted by medical privacy laws, the second amendment, useless yammering about "assault weapons," innefective patchworks of local laws, immunity legislation, political money, and general sound bites that don't address any problem--see your Jimmy Kimmel link.

The first thing we should be able to find agreement in is restricting high kinetic energy rounds that were used in Vegas and against the GOP at softball practice. Second we need to talk about and educate the public about the immunity laws. Nobody knows how terrible they are because we waste our time talking about irrelevant stuff--see your Jimmy Kimmel link.

In general, dealing with gun control at the point of the retail sale isn't very effective. We need to go much further up stream an deal with the kinds of firearms in the marketplace and put more risk on the gun industry for the consequences of their distribution and marketing efforts. We banned tobacco ads, there is no reason why we can't ban gun advertising in total. A gun show isn't very lucrative if nobody knows about it. Neither point offends the second amendment.

Finally I'd be suing the ass off of the manufacturers and sellers of the bump stock. I don't know if a bump stock is covered by immunity or not, but it would be a good way to shed light on the immunity issue.
 
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It's just absurd to say they are for "home protection."

Also, how/why would you need 30 of them to "protect your home"?

You don't, typically that would be a collector. Someone who likes shooting different guns or owning different guns.
 
It's just absurd to say they are for "home protection."

Also, how/why would you need 30 of them to "protect your home"?

Even if they are for home protection, I'm not saying you can't have them, just that it's time we track gun ownership.
 
It's time for rethinking this. Authorities should know when someone buys dozens of guns in a brief amount of time.
That information would be good to know, but what would they do with it? They can't watch a single person for 6 months. This guy didn't have social media to monitor and might not have talked with anyone about his plan. We might find hidden clues, but it is possible he kept his motive well hidden. I would guess a millionaire with a lot of guns and no record would be a low threat, low priority contact.

I know a few people with 20 or 30 guns in their collections. It would be a waste of time to watch them, but I suppose people would have said that about Paddock a week ago. There are always signs, but a determined person can hide a lot of secrets.This guy is law enforcements worst nightmare.
 
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[QUOTE="VanPastorMan"
As I have observed Trump over the last few years I have seen a change in the man. He was a despicable man who was full of himself, but he has been humbled. He might not be as humble as you would like. Obviously, he stands up for what he believes in and does it in a way that Presidents usually don't do by tweeting etc. But he has changed.[/QUOTE]
Wow! You have really outdone yourself!
Good Lord! Oops, I meant Lucifer! :(
 
That information would be good to know, but what would they do with it? They can't watch a single person for 6 months. This guy didn't have social media to monitor and might not have talked with anyone about his plan. We might find hidden clues, but it is possible he kept his motive well hidden. I would guess a millionaire with a lot of guns and no record would be a low threat, low priority contact.

I know a few people with 20 or 30 guns in their collections. It would be a waste of time to watch them, but I suppose people would have said that about Paddock a week ago. There are always signs, but a determined person can hide a lot of secrets.This guy is law enforcements worst nightmare.

Having a national gun registry would allow some analysis that might separate this guy's buying pattern from a collector. Like you suggested, also track his ammo purchases. I'm guessing that would set him apart from 99 percent of the gun owning population.

What do you do with it? I guess we now know if someone fitting that buying pattern checks into a hotel room overlooking a large public gathering, perhaps a random security check of the room will be in order.

I'm libertarian by nature. But let's bring some common sense to bear.
 
As I have observed Trump over the last few years I have seen a change in the man. He was a despicable man who was full of himself, but he has been humbled. He might not be as humble as you would like. Obviously he stands up for what he believes in and does it in a way that Presidents usually don't do by tweeting etc. But he has changed.
Hahaha. You are a gem
It's mind boggling how deluded some people can be. There's a definite level of insanity here. Is this what happens when people can't face the unreality of their perceptions? They just break from reality altogether?
 
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It's mind boggling how deluded some people can be. There's a definite level of insanity here. Is this what happens when people can't face the unreality of their perceptions? They just break from reality altogether?
This is a man, who is supposed to be a man of God, that watches so much fox news that it shapes absolutely everything in his life including his faith. And that's sad.
 
That information would be good to know, but what would they do with it? They can't watch a single person for 6 months. This guy didn't have social media to monitor and might not have talked with anyone about his plan. We might find hidden clues, but it is possible he kept his motive well hidden. I would guess a millionaire with a lot of guns and no record would be a low threat, low priority contact.

I know a few people with 20 or 30 guns in their collections. It would be a waste of time to watch them, but I suppose people would have said that about Paddock a week ago. There are always signs, but a determined person can hide a lot of secrets.This guy is law enforcements worst nightmare.

High volume purchases is one of the reasons we have immunity legislation. Some Chicago area suburban gun shops were selling in high volumes to guys going into the city and reselling out of their vehicles--also called gun running. Chicago was in the process of suing the manufacturers, distributors, and retailers, for knowingly abetting criminal gun trafficking. The NRA-inspired federal immunity legislation was passed and shut down the litigation.
 
High volume purchases is one of the reasons we have immunity legislation. Some Chicago area suburban gun shops were selling in high volumes to guys going into the city and reselling out of their vehicles--also called gun running. Chicago was in the process of suing the manufacturers, distributors, and retailers, for knowingly abetting criminal gun trafficking. The NRA-inspired federal immunity legislation was passed and shut down the litigation.
Some states had laws limiting 1 gun per month. I don't know how well that works if someone buys weapons in other states.

This wasn't someone that suddenly decided to do this. Paddock scouted other locations and took his time gathering what he needed. This wasn't just an angry person or someone trying to make a statement. We still haven't heard of his reason for doing this.
 
It's mind boggling how deluded some people can be. There's a definite level of insanity here. Is this what happens when people can't face the unreality of their perceptions? They just break from reality altogether?
Mark, I am telling that I have observed Trump closely. He is a different man. Would the Donald Trump of 10 years ago have Bible studies? Trump has them in the White House. Years ago I saw him on Dr. David Jeremiah's program. Jeremiah was preaching in NYC and Trump was in the audience. The man has changed.
 
Some states had laws limiting 1 gun per month. I don't know how well that works if someone buys weapons in other states.

This wasn't someone that suddenly decided to do this. Paddock scouted other locations and took his time gathering what he needed. This wasn't just an angry person or someone trying to make a statement. We still haven't heard of his reason for doing this.

Right. The "he snapped" theory doesn't hold up here. I read a theory that prolonged use of some medications can change people's brains and make them susceptible to these mass murder schemes. Don't know if that holds water. We do know that psychotropics like Prozac does that. Supposedly some heart medications do similar things.
 
Mark, I am telling that I have observed Trump closely. He is a different man. Would the Donald Trump of 10 years ago have Bible studies? Trump has them in the White House. Years ago I saw him on Dr. David Jeremiah's program. Jeremiah was preaching in NYC and Trump was in the audience. The man has changed.


Hilarious.....

There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

— Proverbs 6:16–19
 
Mark, I am telling that I have observed Trump closely. He is a different man. Would the Donald Trump of 10 years ago have Bible studies? Trump has them in the White House. Years ago I saw him on Dr. David Jeremiah's program. Jeremiah was preaching in NYC and Trump was in the audience. The man has changed.

Uh, it is called being a phony so the evangelical lemmings will follow him off the cliff. The guy is a complete opportunist, and will manipulate anything to get his way, including religion.

He doesn't have a "believing" bone in his body and never did. How can you be so gullible? Hey I know, have a bible class the right wing bible beaters will eat that up! & they are, apparently.

How can anyone who claims to "observe him closely" come to any other conclusion is beyond my ability to rationalize. You sir, have the mind bending capacity to believe almost anything that fits your agenda...& your agenda is far from "Christian" imho.
 
Mark, I am telling that I have observed Trump closely. He is a different man. Would the Donald Trump of 10 years ago have Bible studies? Trump has them in the White House. Years ago I saw him on Dr. David Jeremiah's program. Jeremiah was preaching in NYC and Trump was in the audience. The man has changed.
You have got to be outside your mind.

Hilarious.....

There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

— Proverbs 6:16–19
Are you pointing that at Trump or Van?
 
Mark, I am telling that I have observed Trump closely. He is a different man. Would the Donald Trump of 10 years ago have Bible studies? Trump has them in the White House. Years ago I saw him on Dr. David Jeremiah's program. Jeremiah was preaching in NYC and Trump was in the audience. The man has changed.

If he's changed at all, it's for the worst.

Everything....100%...is all about him. Even the disaster in Puerto Rico.

The guy has zero......nada......zilch......empathy for others.

Zero.

And even with all his "Bible studies" (LOL!!), I bet he couldn't quote a Bible verse if you gave him a billion dollars.
 
Right. The "he snapped" theory doesn't hold up here. I read a theory that prolonged use of some medications can change people's brains and make them susceptible to these mass murder schemes. Don't know if that holds water. We do know that psychotropics like Prozac does that. Supposedly some heart medications do similar things.

Aloha keeps asking me if I'm "back on my meds."

I actually stopped because those things F*CKED with my mind.

I never wanted to kill anybody, but they made me EXTREMELY suicidal. They had me try 4 different kinds and all were awful.

So, no, Aloha, I'm not on meds anymore. Happy?
 
Hilarious.....

There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

— Proverbs 6:16–19
VPM perfectly illustrates this problem. He believes whatever he has to believe. His magical thinking makes this much easier.

"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters." -- Donald Trump​
 
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VPM perfectly illustrates this problem. He believes whatever he has to believe. His magical thinking makes this much easier.

"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters." -- Donald Trump​

At what point is one so stupid, that one is a danger to oneself? That's the level of stupidity we are observing here.
 
At what point is one so stupid, that one is a danger to oneself? That's the level of stupidity we are observing here.
Are you saying God can't change a heart? Look for instance to Michael Franzese former Capo for the Columbo Crime Family. He is a devout believer in Jesus. Look at the Apostle Paul. He was applauding the death of Christians and threw them in prison gladly. He became a devout believer in Jesus. If God can change these men then Donald Trump can be changed.
 
Are you saying God can't change a heart? Look for instance to Michael Franzese former Capo for the Columbo Crime Family. He is a devout believer in Jesus. Look at the Apostle Paul. He was applauding the death of Christians and threw them in prison gladly. He became a devout believer in Jesus. If God can change these men then Donald Trump can be changed.

People change. That's true of those that believe and don't believe.

If you claim to have seen a positive change in Donald Trump, then you are a zombie.
 
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Aloha keeps asking me if I'm "back on my meds."

I actually stopped because those things F*CKED with my mind.

I never wanted to kill anybody, but they made me EXTREMELY suicidal. They had me try 4 different kinds and all were awful.

So, no, Aloha, I'm not on meds anymore. Happy?
No, I'm not happy. You should find different meds because you need them. Back when you emailed me regularly, before you went on your meds, you were appproaching full blown lunacy. I fear you may be on your way to that point again. This isn't a joke to me. A highly intelligent, very close relative of mine checked out of the real world for a period of time about three years ago. After some therapy and meds, especially the meds, she has since finished college with a nearly 4.0 average, and is completely normal and grounded in the real world. I think it's clear you need them. Please get back with your Doc and find some that work for you.
 
Are you saying God can't change a heart? Look for instance to Michael Franzese former Capo for the Columbo Crime Family. He is a devout believer in Jesus. Look at the Apostle Paul. He was applauding the death of Christians and threw them in prison gladly. He became a devout believer in Jesus. If God can change these men then Donald Trump can be changed.
Him holding phony Bible studies is completely meaningless if he continues to act like a raging jackass and a buffoon. Which he does. He refers to the Eucharist as his "little cracker." He doesn't care, he just does whatever he needs to do to benefit himself.
 
Are you saying God can't change a heart? Look for instance to Michael Franzese former Capo for the Columbo Crime Family. He is a devout believer in Jesus. Look at the Apostle Paul. He was applauding the death of Christians and threw them in prison gladly. He became a devout believer in Jesus. If God can change these men then Donald Trump can be changed.
Yes, I am saying the god cannot change the moron that is president. He does not even believe in your god, his actions and words make that clear. You must be experiencing hallucinations brought on by the other make believe dude named SATAN....you are possessed no-one can be this totally blind and brainwashed...can they?
 
Yes, I am saying the god cannot change the moron that is president. He does not even believe in your god, his actions and words make that clear. You must be experiencing hallucinations brought on by the other make believe dude named SATAN....you are possessed no-one can be this totally blind and brainwashed...can they?

What's truly scary is that a crowd listens to him every Sunday. jesus that's scary.
 
What's truly scary is that a crowd listens to him every Sunday. jesus that's scary.
I have to doubt it is much of a "crowd". If they do attend to listen to this knucklehead then we are all probably safer to have them off the streets, even if it only for an hour or however long this windbag drones on. I truly cannot believe this guys exists...it has to be an internet troll, no one is this stupid.
 
Are you saying God can't change a heart? Look for instance to Michael Franzese former Capo for the Columbo Crime Family. He is a devout believer in Jesus. Look at the Apostle Paul. He was applauding the death of Christians and threw them in prison gladly. He became a devout believer in Jesus. If God can change these men then Donald Trump can be changed.
Where are you a pastor? How big is your congregation? Where did you study?
 
Are you saying God can't change a heart? Look for instance to Michael Franzese former Capo for the Columbo Crime Family. He is a devout believer in Jesus. Look at the Apostle Paul. He was applauding the death of Christians and threw them in prison gladly. He became a devout believer in Jesus. If God can change these men then Donald Trump can be changed.

Too bad you can't give us any evidence he's changed even a tiny bit.

He's still the self-absorbed egomacial a-hole he was before.....and worse.
 
No, I'm not happy. You should find different meds because you need them. Back when you emailed me regularly, before you went on your meds, you were appproaching full blown lunacy. I fear you may be on your way to that point again. This isn't a joke to me. A highly intelligent, very close relative of mine checked out of the real world for a period of time about three years ago. After some therapy and meds, especially the meds, she has since finished college with a nearly 4.0 average, and is completely normal and grounded in the real world. I think it's clear you need them. Please get back with your Doc and find some that work for you.

Whatever you say, Drama Queen.
 
Mark, I am telling that I have observed Trump closely. He is a different man. Would the Donald Trump of 10 years ago have Bible studies? Trump has them in the White House. Years ago I saw him on Dr. David Jeremiah's program. Jeremiah was preaching in NYC and Trump was in the audience. The man has changed.
Remember when they asked him his favorite Bible verse and he couldn't name one? And then 8 months later when asked again he said an eye for an eye? How spiritual . And the time he mentioned one that doesn't exist? Yeah, he seems like a true student of the Bible. It's people like you that fell and continue to fall for his smary used car salesman ( no offense to used car salesman) demeanor. He truly would shoot someone and you'd make excuses for him. Just a sad state of affairs .
 
Are you saying God can't change a heart? Look for instance to Michael Franzese former Capo for the Columbo Crime Family. He is a devout believer in Jesus. Look at the Apostle Paul. He was applauding the death of Christians and threw them in prison gladly. He became a devout believer in Jesus. If God can change these men then Donald Trump can be changed.
Of course people change and do all the time. But Trump is 71 years old, and as pointed out in this thread repeatedly, if he's changed at all , it's for the worse. Do you not read or watch any news sources at all? Honestly can't think of a more laughable thread than someone espousing on what a Christian Trump is. He constantly takes pleasure in bullying, humiliating, and demanding people and he is vindictive against anyone that goes against him. You've surely seen some of his horrendous, insulting, juvenile tweets. This is a changed man? Only in a very, very warped mind.
 
Mark, I am telling that I have observed Trump closely. He is a different man. Would the Donald Trump of 10 years ago have Bible studies? Trump has them in the White House. Years ago I saw him on Dr. David Jeremiah's program. Jeremiah was preaching in NYC and Trump was in the audience. The man has changed.

LMAO
 
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