Jewish Community under attack
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Or maybe any Jews with political influence were trying to help their fellow Jews from being slaughtered by the Nazi’s. Don’t you find that a logical stance?
No. I’m not going to play your game. I asked you a question now you should answer it. Question number 2, do you deny 6 million Jews were murdered plus an additional 5 million the Nazi’s hated?
In that same time frame you mentioned in your anti-Semitic posts, Germany:
(1) led the world in concentration camps (more than 1,000);
(2) "annexed" one country (Austria) and invaded at least ten others (Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, Yugoslavia, Greece and Soviet Union),
(3) sank 233 ships killing 5,000 sailors in the Atlantic Ocean and Gulf of Mexico directly harming US shipping, and
(4) declared war on the US on 12-11-41 before the US had taken any action against Germany.
Germany didn't keep these things secret, and Hitler himself bragged about his intentions in his broadcast speeches. Hell, even Pope Pius knew about the concentration camps.
Contrary to your unfounded claims, the US govt. didn't need to be hoodwinked by biased newspapers or propaganda to think the US needed to take action against Germany to protect itself.
So are you accusing the Jewish son of a holocaust survivor of anti-Semitism? Again some Jews are Zionist and some are not. It's a political, not racist, or ethnic distinction...
Beinart doesn't care about Palestinians, he cares about promoting the destruction of Israel and providing cover to antisemites. He's garbage.
More BS...
After the monopolistic American Jewish msm in conjunction with European jewery pledged 'total war' on Germany in 1933, they also waged war on Congress and the Presidency to undermine neutrality legislation that had been been adopted after the bloody European war that DID NOTHING in support of American public interest. Morganthau and his minions organized and publicized rallies and so-called demonstrations in major cities to create the imagery of Germans as sub-human monsters, just like the government later portrayed the Japanese.
I doubt you can even define 'concentration camps', let alone a thousand of them.
Work camps and POW camps were common on both sides. Oh and by the way, using a 'progressive' approach, what about Roosevelt imprisoning tens of thousand American citizens of Japanese ancestry, who had committed no crimes other than being racially inconvenient?
You reinforce your ignorance by claiming the US had taken no actions against Germany before December 1941. The weakening of the Neutrality Act, which was opposed by millions of Americans, resulted in Lend-Lease, the provision to provide the so-called allies with petroleum products including aviation fuels, gasoline, guns, aircraft, ships, and other war material for a long time before December, 1941
In war, ships are sunk, cities are razed, such as Dresden, and later, Nagasaki and Hiroshima. People die. It is why the American people supported and enacted the Neutrality Acts
Your naivete is stunning.
What about answering my questions? Are you going to deny the Holocaust happened including the 6 million Jews and the other 5 million they hated? Or were those 11 million souls just a casualty of war like the sunken ships?
You mean like for war bonds and such? You are aware there was a war afoot right?
Also, the Neutrality Acts severely limited our ability to conduct foreign policy in the midst of a buildup of arms by the Germans and Japanese. What the hell was Roosevelt supposed to do? Sit back and watch England, France and China burn to the ground? You do understand the purpose of allies right? Plus, by 41 the Germans were attacking US ships. We'd picked sides. We were "at war" with Germany on the water long before December of 1941 and not ending the neutrality policy would have been an obstacle to our protecting ourselves.
Not for war bonds. You know that.
The rallies and jewish msm propaganda designed to vilify Germany and bamboozle America into a bloody and unnecessary European war started 1n 1933, when the National Socialists were a minority in the German coalition government .
That the Neutrality Act would have prevented Americans from defending ourselves is hogwash.
So you're suggesting they weren't gassed? What are you saying. You are a Holocaust denier and at every attempt try and twist the history to fit your narrative. That's exactly what you people do. Just say you don't like Jews and are Nazi sympathizer. You obviously didn't have family die in the Holocaust, you obviously have never visited a death camp. You're pure scum is what you are. I'm done with you you POS.
Another multiple-generation Jewish individual that you accuse of being an anti-Semite? It's stupid enough to accuse Arabs (who are Semites themselves of) anti-semitism but you seem intent on leveling the charge of being anti-Semites against a number of actual Jews...
The correct term you're looking for is Anti-Zionist, though in Beinart's case I'm not sure that is even accurate. His paternal Grandparents are from Lithuania, and the maternal side is a mix of a Russian (Jewish) Grandfather and an Egyptian (Jewish) Grandmother, so it's likely that his family experienced some degree of anti-Semitic treatment. Btw, Beinart is also an editor at large of Jewish Currents...
Are you really intent on (mis) characterizing "progressive Jews" as anti-semites, or even anti-Israeli? Beinart was a columnist at Haaretz (an ISRAELI newspaper) from 2014-2017, so I'm not sure what makes him a proponent of the destruction of Israel?
He does NOT believe in the OCCUPATION, but many former IDR and Israeli soldiers believe the Occupation is morally repugnant. This type of uneducated equating of opposition to Jewish Colonialism with anti-Semitism is more worthy of someone like DANC than someone as educated as yourself...
And to save you the trouble, both Ben and Jerry who just announced they would no longer allow their ice cream to be sold in Jewish settlements within the Occupied territories, are (like Bernie Sanders) Jewish residents of Vermont. And again before you try to paint with too wide a brush and paint them as anti-Israeli, they are to this point still allowing Ben&Jerry's to be sold in Israel proper, just not the Occupied Palestinian Territories...
You've got the same problem promoting this lunacy as CoH has trying to pretend Hitler and the Nazis weren't right-wing Fascists. The fact that wherever the Nazis invaded they were greeted by throngs of pro-Fascist anti-Jewish minorities who in many cases joined the Waffen SS and even manned guard posts at many of the Concentration Camps.
For example, at places like Treblinka and Sobibor, the camps were run by a cadre of German SS officers and NCOs, but most of the day to day brutality was carried out by Latvian and Ukrainian guards who were referred to as Travnicki SS, after the Labor Camp where many of them trained for their assignments.
They were especially brutal and saw their new roles as a way to brutalize their enemy of both Polish and other European Jews, as well as Red Army officers who subsequent to being captured by German forces in Russia were discovered to be Jewish as well...
Ironically it was the transfer of 100 or so of these Red Army Jews to Sobibor that led to the 1943 uprising on which the book and movie are based. The Red Army soldiers brought a degree of organization and efficiency that the civilian Jews would never have been able to implement without the soldiers' leadership. The author of the manuscript on which the screenplay is based is Thomas Blatt, one of the Red Army prisoners who had been transferred to Sobibor and played a key role in the rebellion...
Blah, blah, blah. Your bias is inexcusable.
The Germans declared war on the U.S. first, in Dec. 1941. It's silly to blame the U.S. for responding to what Germany announced it was going to do.
You don't deny the Germans created concentration camps; you just quibble about how many you think I can "prove." (Hint: One concentration camp is too many.)
Despite your suggestion, the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima in 1945 had nothing to do with the U.S. defending itself against
Germany's declaration of war against the U.S. in December, 1941. Your injection of Nagasaki and Hiroshima into the discussion of the conflict between the U.S. and Germany demonstrates you neither understand the timeline of events or the geography of the world. Further, it appears you don't even understand that 1945 occurred later than 1941.
Oh, in case you didn't notice, countless Germans in that timeframe were, in fact, "sub-human monsters," a term you yourself introduced (so you must have thought about whether it applied).
Take your racial prejudice with you and just go away. Nobody here is listening.
So, how many such deaths would someone have to prove before you thought it was actually terrible to kill people?
I was physically ill when I went through that. My daughter was 10 then and she was just in a daze.
It hurts to go through it, but every American should see it to see what can happen in a 'civilized' society.
I cried even more like a baby at Yad Vashem in Israel. The memorial at the end of Schindler’s list. I cry every year we memorialize the Holocaust. My father in law was born in a DP camp and lost most his family. Almost all my Jewish friends have a family meme bet who perished. We shall never forget and will not let anyone like MAS try and rewrite the history books. I don’t want to hate him, but I’m angry now. Real angry. I appreciate everyone’s support. It’s not just about the Jews in the Holocaust for me it’s about stopping a Holocaust from ever happening again anywhere.
I just can't even imagine. I was stationed in Germany, close to Dachau. I couldn't bring myself to go there because I knew it would scar me. Anyone who is not affected in some way by the Holocaust is just not human, imo.
I don't hate the deniers, but I just wonder how we can look at the same set of circumstances and come to such different conclusions. And I'm not personally affected, since I'm not Jewish. But it has always profoundly affected me as a human being.
You'll have to point out where I made any such claim.
Let me tell you about my experience with war and death.
I served a year in a combat unit in Vietnam in an Infantry MOS.,as a recon scout
During my year, we suffered
12 killed, including our Troop CO,, who was 28 years old , and our First Sergesnt
Two of the other ten were from Indiana,
Including an eighteen year-old kid from Logansport who was shot through the throat and bled out inside an armored vehicle.
The Vietnam War came about due to the duplicity of Truman., Stalin and Churchill as they sought to return France's Indo-Chinese colonies.
We had no business in that war, either.
I’m sorry for your losses and what you went through in Vietnam.
I want to ask you though how would you have felt if Hitler had completed the final solution and the US did nothing?
I have been following... I should say reading... you and Masa's back and forth. Now forgive me, my knowledge on specifics on this topic is zero. As I ask this question (actually to both of you) please don't think this is from a denier or someone that is taking sides. The reality of the topic does make the hair on my neck stand up with fear or what ever it is.
The way I read Masa is that there was a Jewish news/ propaganda machine against Germany during that time frame. ... My take on that is (as I read Masa), of course there probably was. Jews had been mistreated and policies were being made to marginalize them. Wouldn't that be totally understandable from the Jews? Fighting back, so to speak.
Are you two possibly talking about the same general topic, but focusing on different specifics?
You asked if he denied the Holocaust. Didn't he simply say the #'s and causes attributed to had been in question for years, but never that it didn't happen.
I may be WAY to under educated to pick up what you two are actually arguing about, and I honestly admit that. But I didn't pick up on Masa's Jew hate, as I am pretty sure you are accusing him of. ** Like I said I could be totally wrong and just don't have enough education on the specifics.
Hands up don't shoot, this is an honest question/ observation.
Throughout history, there has always been suspicions of Jewish cabals that plot to rule the world.
Jews have been successful in societies where they are minorities. It's natural for there to be jealousy, but it gets out of hand and they are convenient scapegoats for societies' ills.
This whole idea of "International Jewry" is one of those things where the accusation is made, but how do you prove it's not true? People bring out acts of individuals or small groups and treat it likes they're a plot of the entire religion.
I do agree with your one point - if Jews were against Hitler in 1933, they were damn well justified.
Whew, I know I have a well deserved reputation here, but thanks for this response. I honestly had no idea. My only teaching of Jews was from jokes about how they love money. Hell I may be part jew from those jokes!
On an odd occasion, I actually do learn things on this cess pooler.
That's because it's never about helping Palestinians, always about hurting Israel.
Question everything!!!!
Some time, maybe a frozen Indiana winter day, search the internet for dissenting views. Why were jews ejected from societies for a thousand years? Can this be attributed to a twentyith century political movement? Did all of these societies over centuries all decide on the jew as their scapegoat,?
Who did Jesus evict from the Temple?
Why?
Who?
Where?
When?
What?
Part of critical thinking.
Whiney emotional responses are a waste of time
They are an artifice to be employed when inconvenient truth gets in the way of the narrative.
I appreciate your comments and questions here, I really do, I think it's better to ask than assume.
So regarding the Jewish news/propaganda machine that Mas has termed, I don't honestly know much about it. But to your point the American Jewish community had every reason to ask their government to protect the European Jews from what was happening. Unfortunately many Americans and the government weren't sympathetic enough as Roosevelt denied many from immigrating to the US or enterinng the war.
Your second question asks did Mas deny the Holocaust. His answer like so many others is quite cryptic. He didnt' deny it but he certainly questioned the legitimacy of the facts (how many died and how did they perish).
I like you am not a historian of the WWII or even the Holocaust. Mas seems to be well read, but I think he interprets the history differently than the majority. Why? I'm not sure, but one reason could be there seems to be a commonn denominator in many of his arguements to disproove the Jewish narative. That generally comes from someone that's anti-semitic. I did however find it interesting he spoke about his terrible experiennce in Vietnam. Perhaps that has made him bias against US involvement in foreign disputes and in the case of WWII the Jews became his logical scapegoat. I don't know.
I've spent a little time on the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum website since this debate has begun and it's a very good resource for WWII and Holocaust education. I will link an article about Holocaust Denial but I invite you all to check out the website in it's entirety. Better yet, it's worth a visit. Another worthy visit is the WWII museum in New Orleans. I learned so much from my visit. I expected to spend an hour or so and ended up staying the whole day reading and learning.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/cont...-holocaust-denial-origins-of-holocaust-denial
https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/holocaust-denial-and-distortion
https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/holocaust-denial-and-distortion/evidence-documentation-holocaust
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I'm actually curious to hear your own answer to the question you just asked. "Why were Jews ejected from societies for a thousand years?" Please don't ask me to do my own research. Just tell us what you've learned or how you've interpreted what you read.
Well, Jesus was a Jew. We wouldn't have Christianity without our shared Jewish history.
They were outcasts in many countries because of the belief 'the Jews' killed Jesus. No, the Romans did that. And the Romans killed Christians for over 300 years after Christ.
The other reason they were outcasts is because they were financially successful. Much like today, wealth causes jealousy.
Were there 'bad Jews'? Of course, just like there are bad Christians, bad Muslims, bad Buddhists. So what? We're all human. But to say there is some "Jewish' conspiracty is just not true. I realize I won't change your mind, but I've read some of these conspiracy theories and they're ridiculous. Like I said, if I claim you're plotting to take over the world, how do you prove yourself innocent? You can't. If the Jews have been plotting a world domination since Christ, they've sure done a bad job of it.
I recall seeing/hearing/reading long ago that the European Jews became successful money people because the Roman Church outlawed any charging of interest on loaned money, calling any interest charge as usury. The Jews weren't bound by that Church ruling. I won't claim there's any validity to this, but it made sense to me at the time.
yeah i had heard that too. pretty interesting. the catholics would get booted for usurious loans and canon law didn't apply to non catholics so the jews could engage in moneylending, which inured to the benefit of the local businesses and the jews themselves who were restricted from entering most or many trades
Jews were also not allowed to be farmers in some places because they were told they were dirty and carried disease so this actually pushed them to be involved in occupations like banking.
I guess I really started paying attention with this part. At the time, and often actually, It seemed like you said "A" and he responded "A^ " cryptically. If I recall, you gave actual numbers, he responded those have been in question. He didn't say your #'s were low, he didn't say they were high, he just said in question.
After reading him, I agree he seems very well learned in this topic. That is where I "assumed" his cryptic answer was because he seems to be at 3x pHd level and glosses over the shit that my 6th grade knowledge needs. Maybe I gave him to much benefit of the doubt? It would really help if he would answer in yes/ no terms, I understand those.
But then again, maybe many of us in this cess pooler, always assume the worst. Again, @Mas-sa-suta if you could be clear, anti Jew or not, it would help.
Crap I left out some Capitalized Nouns, but I'm to lazy to go back and fix them.
I’ve also noticed @Mas-sa-suta likes to reply to other posters more than answering my questions which at times are just a simple yes or no. I’m not sure why.
Mas is repeating very specific claims that are not only known to be false, but also are known to come straight from neo-Nazi Holocaust-denial literature. Eppy probably knows this better than any of us, which is why he was able to peg Mas so quickly.
These folks are smart enough to know that it's a lot harder to spread their disease if they openly admit they have it. So they obfuscate and beat around the bush, and hope that someone reading it says, "Yeah, that makes sense."
Liar.
Nothing I have posted has been proven to be false.
Name calling and repeating emotional drivel is not refutation.
I called you no names and nothing I posted was emotional. I only (accurately) pointed out you where stating falsehoods that happen to be part of the neo-Nazi oeuvre.
I have already refuted some of what you claimed. You declined to respond to my refutation. I'm not going to do the work again.
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