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IU #16 nationally in 3-pt.%, up from 195th at end of last year - who'd have thought?

rikki-tikka-tava

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Jul 17, 2002
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Offensive efficiency tracking at 27th up from 74th. Defense has tumbled from 16th to 52nd but hopefully coming around. Shows how much IU misses Xavier (and Phinisee's) presence in the backcourt. Or so I imagine...
 
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Offensive efficiency tracking at 27th up from 74th. Defense has tumbled from 16th to 52nd but hopefully coming around. Shows how much IU misses Xavier (and Phinisee's) presence in the backcourt. Or so I imagine...
We were very high on the D efficiency side with Xavier in the lineup. His loss is very much felt defensively. I would say offensively though, an argument could be made we're better without him. The ball stopped in his hands a lot. He had a tendency to dribble into trouble a lot. And our possessions weren't nearly as dynamic. Xavier dribbled, then dumped it down to TJD...is what it often devolved in to as games wore on.

Taken in total, we need Xavier back to reach our full potential. Hope it happens as soon as possible, so he's as back into form as he can be by March. But I hope he's been taking notes, and the staff as too, at how the ball and people are moving better offensively without him in the lineup.

We need you to push the pace early in possiesions Xavier, but when nothing is there, we need you to pass it off and help promote movement.

Defensively, be the demon you were made to be!
 
It’s like we have coaches who know what they’re doing or something…

Re: X, hopefully he gets well and reintegrates. Having Fino, Galloway, and X plus a dash of Good Scoop is a formidable guard rotation.
 
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We were very high on the D efficiency side with Xavier in the lineup. His loss is very much felt defensively. I would say offensively though, an argument could be made we're better without him. The ball stopped in his hands a lot. He had a tendency to dribble into trouble a lot. And our possessions weren't nearly as dynamic. Xavier dribbled, then dumped it down to TJD...is what it often devolved in to as games wore on.

Taken in total, we need Xavier back to reach our full potential. Hope it happens as soon as possible, so he's as back into form as he can be by March. But I hope he's been taking notes, and the staff as too, at how the ball and people are moving better offensively without him in the lineup.

We need you to push the pace early in possiesions Xavier, but when nothing is there, we need you to pass it off and help promote movement.

Defensively, be the demon you were made to be!
If you take that 4 game stretch of losses out I bet the defense is pretty darn good.
 
If you take that 4 game stretch of losses out I bet the defense is pretty darn good.
Probably...but his ball pressure and "disruptiveness" can't be discounted. Wisconsin and Illinois are games we proved we can still be really good defensively without him. And he played against Arizona, where we were crap defensively for long stretches.

I just think back to the UNC game...that team would have locked down any team in the nation that day defensively, and Xavier was a huge part of that. THAT team, with the adjustments we've made offensively to still get the ball to TJD, but to do it with more movement and creativity...that team can make a Final Four. I think its possible we could string together 4 games without X, that could get us there. But X widens the margin for error quite a bit. (If he's good X, and if he is on board with the new offense).
 
We were very high on the D efficiency side with Xavier in the lineup. His loss is very much felt defensively. I would say offensively though, an argument could be made we're better without him. The ball stopped in his hands a lot. He had a tendency to dribble into trouble a lot. And our possessions weren't nearly as dynamic. Xavier dribbled, then dumped it down to TJD...is what it often devolved in to as games wore on.
You can make the argument, but you're not offering anything tangible to support it. No idea how you imagine IU's possessions to not be "nearly as dynamic" with X in the lineup - he's the only member of IU's backcourt that has shown the ability to penetrate defenses at will, is far better at pushing tempo than anyone on the roster, and at the end of last Season he and TJD were regularly executing a lethal two-man pick-and-roll from the top of the key. X had some crap games last year, and sure hadn't found his groove at the beginning of this one, but when he's on like he was in the B10 Tournament, IU's offense is the very definition of "dynamic" and far more difficult to defend against than when he's not on the Floor.
 
Probably...but his ball pressure and "disruptiveness" can't be discounted. Wisconsin and Illinois are games we proved we can still be really good defensively without him. And he played against Arizona, where we were crap defensively for long stretches.

I just think back to the UNC game...that team would have locked down any team in the nation that day defensively, and Xavier was a huge part of that. THAT team, with the adjustments we've made offensively to still get the ball to TJD, but to do it with more movement and creativity...that team can make a Final Four. I think its possible we could string together 4 games without X, that could get us there. But X widens the margin for error quite a bit. (If he's good X, and if he is on board with the new offense).
I thought I remembered when X got hurt that they were estimating 6-8 weeks and at the time, I thought that might bring him back around the first PU game. Still is in a boot and the one workout video i saw if him, it looked like he was just doing stuff in the weight room, maybe even in the boot, but no drills while moving. Doesn't seem to me he's still very close; I would guess 2-3 weeks minimum? Hope he's not as rusty as Race has looked since he's come back.
 
I thought I remembered when X got hurt that they were estimating 6-8 weeks and at the time, I thought that might bring him back around the first PU game. Still is in a boot and the one workout video i saw if him, it looked like he was just doing stuff in the weight room, maybe even in the boot, but no drills while moving. Doesn't seem to me he's still very close; I would guess 2-3 weeks minimum? Hope he's not as rusty as Race has looked since he's come back.
Surgery was December 21st so just shy of 6 weeks - could be anytime. Sort of exciting...
 
I thought I remembered when X got hurt that they were estimating 6-8 weeks and at the time, I thought that might bring him back around the first PU game. Still is in a boot and the one workout video i saw if him, it looked like he was just doing stuff in the weight room, maybe even in the boot, but no drills while moving. Doesn't seem to me he's still very close; I would guess 2-3 weeks minimum? Hope he's not as rusty as Race has looked since he's come back.
He was shooting (not jumping) before OSU with no boot. Good sign.

 
He was shooting (not jumping) before OSU with no boot. Good sign.

Easy to imagine that all his time watching from the bench with Woodson & Co. will have given him a greater understanding of the game and in particular the tendencies, strengths and abilities of his Teammates. Always thought that a significant part of his struggle was trying to do too much himself - hopefully the down time will put him in mind of emphasizing his own strength as a facilitator and lead to a greater offensive efficiency both for the Team and himself.
 
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It's not the percentage; it's the volume. Shooting 40% on 4-10 isn't really a game-changer. But 10-20 like the other night against OSU certainly is.
It's both. High perimeter efficiency discourages opponents from sagging off which leads to more penetration and/or freedom of movement underneath which equals more points/higher efficiency in the paint. Becomes something of a 'pick your poison' proposition for defenders.

Main point is that even with Stewart, Kopp and Xavier, IU wasn't the threat from outside last year that they are now. Back in September were any number of posters bewailing the fact that IU's 3-pt. shooting was going to suck this year - lo and behold, it does not.
 
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It's both. High perimeter efficiency discourages opponents from sagging off which leads to more penetration and/or freedom of movement underneath which equals more points/higher efficiency in the paint. Becomes something of a 'pick your poison' proposition for defenders.

Main point is that even with Stewart, Kopp and Xavier, IU wasn't the threat from outside last year that they are now. Back in September were any number of posters bewailing the fact that IU's 3-pt. shoting was going to suck this year - lo and behold, it does not.
People also discount how much better the shooting is overall. Mainly midrange shots.
 
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Offensive efficiency tracking at 27th up from 74th. Defense has tumbled from 16th to 52nd but hopefully coming around. Shows how much IU misses Xavier (and Phinisee's) presence in the backcourt. Or so I imagine...
3pt % ranking is good considering how crappy we shot 3s to start the season. Or did it just seem like we couldn’t hit shit?
 
3pt % ranking is good considering how crappy we shot 3s to start the season. Or did it just seem like we couldn’t hit shit?
No this team has shot well overall. Steadily improving. This team only needs 7-8 makes on 18-19 tries. Would certainly take more.
 
You can make the argument, but you're not offering anything tangible to support it. No idea how you imagine IU's possessions to not be "nearly as dynamic" with X in the lineup - he's the only member of IU's backcourt that has shown the ability to penetrate defenses at will, is far better at pushing tempo than anyone on the roster, and at the end of last Season he and TJD were regularly executing a lethal two-man pick-and-roll from the top of the key. X had some crap games last year, and sure hadn't found his groove at the beginning of this one, but when he's on like he was in the B10 Tournament, IU's offense is the very definition of "dynamic" and far more difficult to defend against than when he's not on the Floor.
You're right...I would need to find stats to support it.

When I say dynamic, I mean an offense that can adapt and score in multiple ways, through movement, getting our best player the ball in a wide array of ways, etc... Xavier certainly CAN provide a different "dynamic" to our offense. And when he's on, its a flashy and exciting "dynamic". But he's proven, just as much as he hasn't, that the alternative to that speed, early pressure on the defense, penetrate and kick benefit is that he makes poor decisions with the ball, he dribbles too much out top, and when he's leading the offense, the only two ways TJD ends up getting the ball is mid post dump downs (we still use this a lot to be fair), and pick and rolls (we don't use this as much without X). Without X, TJD catches the ball all over the court, we use varying people to insert him the ball, we run a lot more movement/action when we do dump it down to him.

I'm not sure if that's fully X's "fault" or not. But that's the reality. Our offense has shown to have more ways to score since he's been out. To me, that's more dynamic.

Having said that, I dearly hope he comes back soon, and I can't wait to see some of his coast to coast dynamism again. We need that element too.
 
JHS has had a huge impact on the team's shooting. He has shown a great deal of shooting ability himself (both midrange and a surprisingly good 3-pt shot) and he's very good at setting up others.
JHS was forced to do more with X being out. His work in the off-season has really shown.
 
Now just imagine if IU shot and made more 3FG. The Hoosiers are 259th in 3FG made per game. The percentage is great, but, in today's game, the lack of makes will come back to haunt IU.
I think(lately) they have hit plenty. It depends on the game. If people play TJD straight up you don’t need a bunch. Just pound it in.
 
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Now just imagine if IU shot and made more 3FG. The Hoosiers are 259th in 3FG made per game. The percentage is great, but, in today's game, the lack of makes will come back to haunt IU.
As TMP has pointed out, recent NCAA champs have all succeeded with modest reliance on shooting from deep. Kansas for example won last year averaging 20 attempts/game, only a bit higher than IU's 17.3. As long as they maintain high overall offensive productivity/efficiency, 3-pt. volume doesn't matter that much if they're able to prevent opponents from lighting it up themselves.
 
As TMP has pointed out, recent NCAA champs have all succeeded with modest reliance on shooting from deep. Kansas for example won last year averaging 20 attempts/game, only a bit higher than IU's 17.3. As long as they maintain high overall offensive productivity/efficiency, 3-pt. volume doesn't matter that much if they're able to prevent opponents from lighting it up themselves.
Yep. If you look at the last few years efficiency not dynamic 3 point shooting wins. Doesn’t matter where the points come from ratio wise. If you average 8-9 makes at an above 37% clip wins a lot of games.
 
Yes, that strategy has worked often, but I'm thinking bigger picture. If IU meets a team that hits, say, 13-30 in the NCAAT, they better come close to matching that output or it's curtains ... no matter how effective TJD is.

But 10-20, like IU hit vs. OSU, would work damn-near every game. That said, IU can't count of JHS going nuclear and hitting 6 of 7 threes in a half every game.
Find me those stats and you would be shocked at how few teams hit that many. Usually teams that take a lot have to and they usually flame out. There are no teams in the top 25 averaging that. Only 11 teams actually average 10 -11 made a game. None are close to great teams or sniffing the top 25. 3 teams average 30 attempts.
 
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As last year’s 3pt % seemed dismal at times, this year’s improvement is indeed a pleasant surprise.
 
Offensive efficiency tracking at 27th up from 74th. Defense has tumbled from 16th to 52nd but hopefully coming around. Shows how much IU misses Xavier (and Phinisee's) presence in the backcourt. Or so I imagine...
It’s been pretty clear most of the year that the coaches have delivered on improving team shooting. Especially beyond the arc. D has also been good, though not as consistent this year (maybe that is an X factor). Regardless, plenty to be positive about, but still a ways to go as a team.

Happy with progress so far.
 
Offensive efficiency tracking at 27th up from 74th. Defense has tumbled from 16th to 52nd but hopefully coming around. Shows how much IU misses Xavier (and Phinisee's) presence in the backcourt. Or so I imagine...
Rob hardly played last season, from what I recall. He most certainly did not help our three point shooting. Kudos to Woody in making us a better shooting team. Entire team is better. Our 3P team FG % is 500 basis points higher. Overall FG % is the same. RP shot 25% from three and 41% from ft line. Woof!
 
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Rob hardly played last season, from what I recall. He most certainly did not help our three point shooting. Kudos to Woody in making us a better shooting team. Entire team is better. Our 3P team FG % is 500 basis points higher. Overall FG % is the same. RP shot 25% from three and 41% from ft line. Woof!
C'mon. The bit about Rob was in reference to his defense, not his prowess from deep, and he was on the floor plenty at the end of tight games as part of Woodon''s 'guts' line-up utilized to lock-down opposing offenses. Apart from a late game-winning shot against pU, no one will remember Rob for his marksmanship - his defense is another story.
 
C'mon. The bit about Rob was in reference to his defense, not his prowess from deep, and he was on the floor plenty at the end of tight games as part of Woodon''s 'guts' line-up utilized to lock-down opposing offenses. Apart from a late game-winning shot against pU, no one will remember Rob for his marksmanship - his defense is another story.
Exactly. We are better offensively with this current group for sure, but I would love to have X and Phin defending PUke's freshman guards this Saturday.
 
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We were very high on the D efficiency side with Xavier in the lineup. His loss is very much felt defensively. I would say offensively though, an argument could be made we're better without him. The ball stopped in his hands a lot. He had a tendency to dribble into trouble a lot. And our possessions weren't nearly as dynamic. Xavier dribbled, then dumped it down to TJD...is what it often devolved in to as games wore on.

Taken in total, we need Xavier back to reach our full potential. Hope it happens as soon as possible, so he's as back into form as he can be by March. But I hope he's been taking notes, and the staff as too, at how the ball and people are moving better offensively without him in the lineup.

We need you to push the pace early in possiesions Xavier, but when nothing is there, we need you to pass it off and help promote movement.

Defensively, be the demon you were made to be!
I don't believe the 3 pt efficiency ranking/improvement. It has to be due to some sort of dork sitting around in mom's basement, looking for ways to exalt us, for why, who knows. Eye test it, is this a good 3 point shooting team? No!! You want to see an eye test, go back to us and UNLV in 87. Those teams could shoot and pass eye test as dangerous. This is not that
 
I don't believe the 3 pt efficiency ranking/improvement. It has to be due to some sort of dork sitting around in mom's basement, looking for ways to exalt us, for why, who knows. Eye test it, is this a good 3 point shooting team? No!! You want to see an eye test, go back to us and UNLV in 87. Those teams could shoot and pass eye test as dangerous. This is not that
2 for 4?
That team didn’t shoot as many 3s as you think and almost all were shot by one guy all season.
 
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We need you to push the pace early in possiesions Xavier,
Im actuslly terrified of this.
Race hasnt even implemented himself yet, can I really count on Xavier.
Xavier CANT come back and continue turning ball over every other possession, and or making terrible pg pass decisions.
He does that and we lose to teams like "Minnesota"
 
C'mon. The bit about Rob was in reference to his defense, not his prowess from deep, and he was on the floor plenty at the end of tight games as part of Woodon''s 'guts' line-up utilized to lock-down opposing offenses. Apart from a late game-winning shot against pU, no one will remember Rob for his marksmanship - his defense is another story.
Agree. He was a great defender. The problem is it was offset by his woeful offensive production and made us all the more easy to defend.
 
Exactly. We are better offensively with this current group for sure, but I would love to have X and Phin defending PUke's freshman guards this Saturday.
Yeah, I was really looking forward to seeing XJ on Smith. Guess it will wait for WL.
 
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