Is Yogi the most overrated Hoosier of all time?

[T.M.P.]

One of the travesties of the end of the season was that we completely stopped cutting Troy on the baseline. That play was his best contribution to the team, and it just disappeared. And, yes, combined with Troy also running point so much late (that wasn't happening nearly as much during the B1G season), it's pretty easy to see that's a coaching problem.

I said this after senior night, and I still think it, after looking at Crean's smug face, and realizing he saved his job, his ego was back full-force, and he was going to screw things up and overthink us right out of the postseason. One of the reasons we won the B1G was he realized he wasn't a genius. But, paradoxically, winning the B1G was exactly what he needed to be convinced again that he was, in fact, a genius.

I wasn't joking with my original response to you. Yogi's value will be most apparent when our Yogiless team next year is Creaned right into a .500 record and the NIT bubble.

I still disagree, because Yogi Ferrell isn't all that... and still say that not having a replacement is a bigger and only issue. Consider lsoing Blackmon vs losing Bryant. Replacing Blackmon's role with five other guys who can shoot... pffft no effect. Replacing Bryant with no one, would have killed us.

We're replacing yogi with no one. We can replace Yogi's scoring easily. We have a better defender. What we don't have is a ballhandler - who can facilitate. A PG. So yea, we'll suffer. If we had a decent backup PG on roster (we don't) it wouldn't be an issue at all.

 

[crimsonlaw]

I'll remember Yogi as a good but not great player. I'll remember being a but disappointed that he wasn't the alpha male that I thought he'd be. Good. Not great.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Oh, I don't disagree. I mean Crean missed the entire postseason with Yogi at pg and the center was a guy now starting in the NBA. Depressing.

I really hate this time of year watching other schools achieve things that our program should. It pisses me off to watch other blue bloods pass us by in number of national titles because we haven't won one in nearly 30 goddamn years...and won't sniff another one anytime soon.

We used to be tied with UK for 2nd most all time. Since then, UK has won 3 more, and Duke and UNC have both tied us. UConn is only behind by one.

Although, UNC might not be tied with us for much longer...

 

[T.M.P.]

Yogi made a shit ton of big plays during the B1G season. OG was the flashy superstar-in-the-making, the Next Oladipo, but without Yogi, this is a 9-9 team in conference at best.

OG conflicts me. I want him to be the player I think he can be, but I worry that he'll do just enough to save Crean's job again, and then we are getting desperately close to Extension Time.

Goat, I've never seen Yogi Ferrell succeed in the clutch except his freshman year for two games. This Yogi you are describing certainly didn't exist in his first 90 games or last 3. I'm talking game winning or changing plays, clutch plays, and "Yogi Ferrell". It's the book on him, he ain't clutch.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I still disagree, because Yogi Ferrell isn't all that... and still say that not having a replacement is a bigger and only issue. Consider lsoing Blackmon vs losing Bryant. Replacing Blackmon's role with five other guys who can shoot... pffft no effect. Replacing Bryant with no one, would have killed us.

We're replacing yogi with no one. We can replace Yogi's scoring easily. We have a better defender. What we don't have is a ballhandler - who can facilitate. A PG. So yea, we'll suffer. If we had a decent backup PG on roster (we don't) it wouldn't be an issue at all.

That's really still just two sides of the same coin. Point is, we both agree there is a very good chance we could suck next year, and the loss of Yogi is a big part of why. People expecting us to be top ten next year are...delusional.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Goat, I've never seen Yogi Ferrell succeed in the clutch except his freshman year for two games. This Yogi you are describing certainly didn't exist in his first 90 games or last 3. I'm talking game winning or changing plays, clutch plays, and "Yogi Ferrell". It's the book on him, he ain't clutch.

I think he made a couple this year, but I don't get a hard-on about "clutch." If someone sinks a jumper at the buzzer to win by a point, that's great, but I'm more impressed by the other guy who knocked down five jumpers early to build up the big lead that our idiot coach almost gave away in the second half with dumbass substitutions.

 

[Warison]

Jesus that's depressing to think about.

Or if Mo Creek hadn't got injured and Vonleh actually showed up and Hanner wasn't a fall down drunk ...

 

[crimsonlaw]

Goat, I've never seen Yogi Ferrell succeed in the clutch except his freshman year for two games. This Yogi you are describing certainly didn't exist in his first 90 games or last 3. I'm talking game winning or changing plays, clutch plays, and "Yogi Ferrell". It's the book on him, he ain't clutch.

Towards the end of the game, if we need a FT and he's at the line, expect him to miss the first.

 

[Lucy01]

I think he made a couple this year, but I don't get a hard-on about "clutch." If someone sinks a jumper at the buzzer to win by a point, that's great, but I'm more impressed by the other guy who knocked down five jumpers early to build up the big lead that our idiot coach almost gave away in the second have with dumbass substitutions.

Did you have Dinner with your sister today? You are making a lot of sense tonight!

 

[The Vid]

Or if Mo Creek hadn't got injured and Vonleh actually showed up and Hanner wasn't a fall down drunk ...

Hanner may be the most overrated recruit in school history, and it had nothing to do with his drinking. He flat out sucks at basketball. Zeller is the only reason Crean is still here. Thanks Cody

 

[mike41703]

That's really still just two sides of the same coin. Point is, we both agree there is a very good chance we could suck next year, and the loss of Yogi is a big part of why. People expecting us to be top ten next year are...delusional.

They are. But I know that you know that if we had something more competent than a cucumber on the sidelines we would and should expect to be top 10. We have a lot of talent returning and incoming. More than enough to be there at the end.

And we won't be. And he won't be fired.

Bowl...I mean beer 5.

 

[cryano]

I think he made a couple this year, but I don't get a hard-on about "clutch." If someone sinks a jumper at the buzzer to win by a point, that's great, but I'm more impressed by the other guy who knocked down five jumpers early to build up the big lead that our idiot coach almost gave away in the second half with dumbass substitutions.

Did you not see his corner shot vs Iowa that at the time seemed like it was for the B10 - was clutch - shot clock running out and he recieved pass in the corner - he was having an off shooting day up until then

Edit: Meant to reply to TMP - too much trouble to fix it - fuggit

 

[T.M.P.]

I think he made a couple this year, but I don't get a hard-on about "clutch." If someone sinks a jumper at the buzzer to win by a point, that's great, but I'm more impressed by the other guy who knocked down five jumpers early to build up the big lead that our idiot coach almost gave away in the second have with dumbass substitutions.

Watching Virginia run a clinic in that first half on how to attack that zone. Good basketball. Their big isn't dribbling into it. In fact he rarely dribbles. sigh ...

I liked Roy William's comments on "we don't care about defense", which only verified what I said earlier in the week about the UNC system. They only concern themselves with their system and making the opponent stop it. Its' worked since 1952. think about that, a player from the 52 squad ran some of the same practice skills and a player from 52 could talk about schemes with a player from 16. Sure there's changes but fundamentally it's still teh same system. That's an amazing amount of tradition. I wish we had that.....

Yes, I'm going away from the Yogi conversation. Because he's just not worth this much thought or effort. vbg

Just to get one last word in.lol ..

I love the subject of PG's, it's my favorite position and one I think I understand the best. And, Yogi Ferrell isn't one. He's a combo. He doesn't have the inherent "what ever it is" to be a great PG. He was made and trained to be one, not born. Great PG's are born to it.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

They are. But I know that you know that if we had something more competent than a cucumber on the sidelines we would and should expect to be top 10. We have a lot of talent returning and incoming. More than enough to be there at the end.

And we won't be. And he won't be fired.

Bowl...I mean beer 5.

That's what I'm saying. I think Yogi was a very good band-aid. I'm not saying the team isn't talented without him, but I think the trajectory we were on through Maui and Duke and so forth was the natural trajectory for this team under this coach, and then Yogi simply decided to change it. Kudos to him for that, but if Yogi hadn't flipped on that light switch, we'd be interviewing coaches right now.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Watching Virginia run a clinic in that first half on how to attack that zone. Good basketball. Their big isn't dribbling into it. In fact he rarely dribbles. sigh ...

I liked Roy William's comments on "we don't care about defense", which only verified what I said earlier in the week about the UNC system. They only concern themselves with their system and making the opponent stop it. Its' worked since 1952. think about that, a player from the 52 squad ran some of the same practice skills and a player from 52 could talk about schemes with a player from 16. Sure there's changes but fundamentally it's still teh same system. That's an amazing amount of tradition. I wish we had that.....

Yes, I'm going away from the Yogi conversation. Because he's just not worth this much thought or effort. vbg

Just to get one last word in.lol ..

I love the subject of PG's, it's my favorite position and one I think I understand the best. And, Yogi Ferrell isn't one. He's a combo. He doesn't have the inherent "what ever it is" to be a great PG. He was made and trained to be one, not born. Great PG's are born to it.

Meh. I'm not that concerned about having an "IU way," either. UNC has that? Good for them. Whatever. If RMK had been allowed to leave of his own accord and have a say in his successor, we might have that, too. Of course, we also might have gotten Pat Knight. Who knows?

Remember when Nebraska finally gave up the option, how many Husker fans got in a tizzy? Effing stupid, if you ask me.

Some systems are better than others, I guess, but I think a coach should coach the system that:

1) He's best at teaching and understanding himself, and
2) He has the personnel for.

Obviously, for #2, it's incumbent upon a good coach to make sure he has the personnel necessary for the system that best fits #1, so, for a competent coach and recruiter, the answer to both will be the same.

But I really don't care if it's the same system we ran 40 years ago.

 

[FrankTGucker]

We used to be tied with UK for 2nd most all time. Since then, UK has won 3 more, and Duke and UNC have both tied us. UConn is only behind by one.

Although, UNC might not be tied with us for much longer...

Yep. If that's not bad enough since IU's trip in 2002, MSU (4), OSU (2), Wis (2), Ill and Mich have all made the Final Four.

ND has a chance today to make it 3 trips to the final four by an Indiana school not named IU since 2002.

But hey making sweet 16's is pretty great too.

 

[mike41703]

Yep. If that's not bad enough since IU's trip in 2002, MSU (4), OSU (2), Wis (2), Ill and Mich have all made the Final Four.

ND has a chance today to make it 3 trips to the final four by an Indiana school not named IU since 2002.

But hey making sweet 16's is pretty great too.

I liked this post but I want to puke.

 

[T.M.P.]

If everyone came back except Troy (#fingerscrossed) we have a likely lineup of RJ, JB, OG, JM, TB with a pretty good bench.

If they each progressed the average for their role and position using this years PEr and adding teh average increase per role and experience... thier PER's would be..(fwiw when I did this last year every player with the exception of RJ, YF and TW exceeded their expectation - just for perspective - RJ was 3 below, Yogi 1 below, and TW 7 below.) Bryant put up enough to get pro consideration this year. Around 25 last I looked. JB was at 27 +5 over his projection. OG was almost 8 pts above his at 20.0 with most of it coming after JB went down.

Per Role ..
1. W - JB - 29.0 ***** 2nd rd pro
2. P - TB - 29.0 ***** 1st rd pro
3. G - RJ - 16.0 ****
4. W - OG - 24.0 *** possible pro
5. F - JM - 19.0 ****

Yea, that's easily a top ten to fifteen team with it's only weakness at PG.

So we'll finish 56th nationally and 8th in conference, right?

 

[C-$]

If everyone came back except Troy (#fingerscrossed) we have a likely lineup of RJ, JB, OG, JM, TB with a pretty good bench.

If they each progressed the average for their role and position using this years PEr and adding teh average increase per role and experience... thier PER's would be..(fwiw when I did this last year every player with the exception of RJ, YF and TW exceeded their expectation - just for perspective - RJ was 3 below, Yogi 1 below, and TW 7 below.) Bryant put up enough to get pro consideration this year. Around 25 last I looked. JB was at 27 +5 over his projection. OG was almost 8 pts above his at 20.0 with most of it coming after JB went down.

Per Role ..
1. W - JB - 29.0 ***** 2nd rd pro
2. P - TB - 29.0 ***** 1st rd pro
3. G - RJ - 16.0 ****
4. W - OG - 24.0 *** possible pro
5. F - JM - 19.0 ****

Yea, that's easily a top ten to fifteen team with it's only weakness at PG.

So we'll finish 56th nationally and 8th in conference, right?

OG is a lottery pick next year. "Possible pro"? No. Jesus Christ, you don't even watch games anymore.

You work on spreadsheets.

 

[Rakkasan29]

One of the travesties of the end of the season was that we completely stopped cutting Troy on the baseline. That play was his best contribution to the team, and it just disappeared. And, yes, combined with Troy also running point so much late (that wasn't happening nearly as much during the B1G season), it's pretty easy to see that's a coaching problem.

I said this after senior night, and I still think it, after looking at Crean's smug face, and realizing he saved his job, his ego was back full-force, and he was going to screw things up and overthink us right out of the postseason. One of the reasons we won the B1G was he realized he wasn't a genius. But, paradoxically, winning the B1G was exactly what he needed to be convinced again that he was, in fact, a genius.

I wasn't joking with my original response to you. Yogi's value will be most apparent when our Yogiless team next year is Creaned right into a .500 record and the NIT bubble.

Death.

Taxes.

Giving Tom Crean a week to prepare and losing by double digits in the Sweet Sixteen...

 

[Warison]

Goat, I've never seen Yogi Ferrell succeed in the clutch except his freshman year for two games. This Yogi you are describing certainly didn't exist in his first 90 games or last 3. I'm talking game winning or changing plays, clutch plays, and "Yogi Ferrell". It's the book on him, he ain't clutch.

At Iowa. This year. Last 30 seconds. Dagger 3.

 

[PtownHoosier]

One of the travesties of the end of the season was that we completely stopped cutting Troy on the baseline. That play was his best contribution to the team, and it just disappeared. And, yes, combined with Troy also running point so much late (that wasn't happening nearly as much during the B1G season), it's pretty easy to see that's a coaching problem.

I said this after senior night, and I still think it, after looking at Crean's smug face, and realizing he saved his job, his ego was back full-force, and he was going to screw things up and overthink us right out of the postseason. One of the reasons we won the B1G was he realized he wasn't a genius. But, paradoxically, winning the B1G was exactly what he needed to be convinced again that he was, in fact, a genius.

I wasn't joking with my original response to you. Yogi's value will be most apparent when our Yogiless team next year is Creaned right into a .500 record and the NIT bubble.

I just hope that after next year, assuming it will be the shitshow most of us here think it will be, Crean will see the writing on the wall ala Stallings and Dixon. He can make his triumphant return to Conference USA.

 

[FL33]

JB is a better shooter and scorer. He's in the top 2% in both and was over 25 PER (when SOS adj. 27 PER unadjusted). I don't think Yogi likes having a better shooter and scorer on teh floor with him.

Plus, Yogi is a Williams groupie. Blackmon is not. Chemistry improved not because James was a weak link, but because James is not one of William's entourage. He's the real leader of the team and it's obvious. Not because he has good leadership qualities, but because he is aggressive and has bad leadership qualities that people will still follow. Defense improved because OG started getting more minutes.

fwiw - His defensive issues are on Crean. Like I said in a earlier post, I've never seen a coach unable to hide a bad individual player on defense as much as Crean. I don;t have blackmon hate and blame going on. I blame him for nothing ...

No,having Johnson in for JBjr and more OG was the difference. Blackmon is a god awful defender who doesn't really even try.

Yogi made a shit ton of big plays during the B1G season. OG was the flashy superstar-in-the-making, the Next Oladipo, but without Yogi, this is a 9-9 team in conference at best.

OG conflicts me. I want him to be the player I think he can be, but I worry that he'll do just enough to save Crean's job again, and then we are getting desperately close to Extension Time.

Troy is the next Oladipo....or did the premie give up on that?

 

[T.M.P.]

Meh. I'm not that concerned about having an "IU way," either. UNC has that? Good for them. Whatever. If RMK had been allowed to leave of his own accord and have a say in his successor, we might have that, too. Of course, we also might have gotten Pat Knight. Who knows?

Remember when Nebraska finally gave up the option, how many Husker fans got in a tizzy? Effing stupid, if you ask me.

Some systems are better than others, I guess, but I think a coach should coach the system that:

1) He's best at teaching and understanding himself, and
2) He has the personnel for.

Obviously, for #2, it's incumbent upon a good coach to make sure he has the personnel necessary for the system that best fits #1, so, for a competent coach and recruiter, the answer to both will be the same.

But I really don't care if it's the same system we ran 40 years ago.

I only care from a tradition and historical perspective. I think it's special. When anyone speaks tradition in college basketball Carolina leads UK, Kansas and Indiana because of it

And it apparently still works.

Yes, from 1952 to today. Bigs who can run and pass. PG's who are pass first. Secondary break, back cut overplays, side line traps and Carolina motion (which differed from Indiana motion because it was more a 1 4 and required a PG to run the show but was pass oriented as well) No gimmicks!

And, what's not well known, McGuire and Smith came up with this method by applying mathematics to basketball. Smith was probably the first major coach to use what we now know as analytics. My HS coach told me that when he showed me how to calculate PER. Mine was -2 in JV. lol....

Someone asked "what good is algebra in the real world" ... he went off on analytics applied to basketball.

"By" Hey, I know you've heard of him. His step daughter is still one of the hottest girls I've ever seen. Her name was "Gigi"... my gawd. I know useless without pictures but I have a clear one in my mind.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

No,having Johnson in for JBjr and more OG was the difference. Blackmon is a god awful defender who doesn't really even try.



Troy is the next Oladipo....or did the premie give up on that?

Good lord...

I like Troy a lot more than most people on this forum, but give me a break. Those people are out of their minds. Troy is a super talented player who somehow still overestimates his own ability, resulting in a lot of dumb decisions, and his coach also uses him incorrectly.

He'll be very good in Europe.

 

[T.M.P.]

OG is a lottery pick next year. "Possible pro"? No. Jesus Christ, you don't even watch games anymore.

You work on spreadsheets.

I probably watched 4 times the games you have this year, especially since January you dumbass wanna be.. and may I remind you that you picked Butler top 20 while my spreadsheet picked them 40. You watched every Butler game the year before you dumbass, I watched none. Scoreboard bitch!

OG needs to prove he can shoot and handle better.

 

[T.M.P.]

At Iowa. This year. Last 30 seconds. Dagger 3.

Sunshine and a dogs ass, everywhere, daily.

 

[T.M.P.]

No,having Johnson in for JBjr and more OG was the difference. Blackmon is a god awful defender who doesn't really even try.

The difference was having additional, instead of redundant, roles. Like defender..

 

[C-$]

I probably watched 4 times the games you have this year, especially since January you dumbass wanna be.. and may I remind you that you picked Butler top 20 while my spreadsheet picked them 40. You watched every Butler game the year before you dumbass, I watched none. Scoreboard bitch!

OG needs to prove he can shoot and handle better.

Meh.

Eat my shit.

 

[FL33]

The difference was having additional, instead of redundant, roles. Like defender..

Definitely. That's why next year with RJ, Blackmon and Troy pretty much all trying to do the same thing will be....interesting?

 

[T.M.P.]

Meh.

Eat my shit.

lol ...

 

[T.M.P.]

Definitely. That's why next year with RJ, Blackmon and Troy pretty much all trying to do the same thing will be....interesting?

 

[T.M.P.]

LOL Cuse wins!

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

LOL Cuse wins!

Fun discussions on the hoops boards about why we should punish a bunch of teenagers for sins committed by the adults charged with teaching them how to be good student-athletes.

 

[Chester Fried]

Fun discussions on the hoops boards about why we should punish a bunch of teenagers for sins committed by the adults charged with teaching them how to be good student-athletes.

I hate to use the term butthurt because it's the lowest argument to be used on a message board, but there really is no better term to use when describing people who complain about UNC or Cuse.

 

[T.M.P.]

Fun discussions on the hoops boards about why we should punish a bunch of teenagers for sins committed by the adults charged with teaching them how to be good student-athletes.

I'm staying off the freeboard, it took me five bowls to not care about Crean, and reading Indiana Scott will make me hate humanity even more, and I don't have enough smoke for that, so I gotta pass.

You know, I've followed UNC since I was five years old. They were my favorite team when I was a child. Not a "fan" now, as there's no emotional attachment but I enjoy watching them. Sometimes I root for them (Duke, UK), other times against (almost anyone else) but I watch (and enjoy watching) UNC more than any other team (except IU in the past). I just realized I was getting excited about watching this .. weird.

Go Heels or is everyone rooting for ND?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I'm staying off the freeboard, it took me five bowls to not care about Crean, and reading Indiana Scott will make me hate humanity even more, and I don't have enough smoke for that, so I gotta pass.

You know, I've followed UNC since I was five years old. They were my favorite team when I was a child. Not a "fan" now, as there's no emotional attachment but I enjoy watching them. Sometimes I root for them (Duke, UK), other times against (almost anyone else) but I watch (and enjoy watching) UNC more than any other team (except IU in the past). I just realized I was getting excited about watching this .. weird.

Go Heels or is everyone rooting for ND?

I don't think it matters to me. UNC winning will make my bracket look better, but even if OU goes all the way, I'm going to lose to the guy who picked OU over UNC in the final.

 

[FL33]

I'm rooting for ND because I like them (although I don't care that much) and they meet two other criteria: Indiana players and they're the underdog.

 

[FrankTGucker]

I'm staying off the freeboard, it took me five bowls to not care about Crean, and reading Indiana Scott will make me hate humanity even more, and I don't have enough smoke for that, so I gotta pass.

You know, I've followed UNC since I was five years old. They were my favorite team when I was a child. Not a "fan" now, as there's no emotional attachment but I enjoy watching them. Sometimes I root for them (Duke, UK), other times against (almost anyone else) but I watch (and enjoy watching) UNC more than any other team (except IU in the past). I just realized I was getting excited about watching this .. weird.

Go Heels or is everyone rooting for ND?

ND only because I don't want them to pass us in titles. Pretty fun game so far.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

ND only because I don't want them to pass us in titles. Pretty fun game so far.

I haven't even seen any of the game, because I've been too busy ****ing the *****s on the ****** board. Tied at 29? Time for me to pay attention.