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Is power a zero sum game?

CO. Hoosier

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Aug 29, 2001
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In other words, can we only empower oppressed or marginalized people by diminishing power of those seen as "oppressors"?

As you consider this question, read this Andrew Sullivan piece.

There are many facets to what Sullivan writes. Here is some of my reactions--starting with this paragraph:

After all, the core truth of our condition, this theory argues, is that we live in a system of interlocking oppressions that penalize various identity groups in a society. And all power is zero-sum: you either have power over others or they have power over you. To the extent that men exercise power, for example, women don’t; in so far as straight people wield power, gays don’t; and so on. There is no mutually beneficial, non-zero-sum advancement in this worldview. All power is gained only through some other group’s loss. And so the point became not simply to interpret the world, but to change it, to coin a phrase, an imperative which explains why some critics call this theory a form of neo-Marxism.
I also reject this view. Unfortunately we are unmistakably marching in this direction with our views about race and racism. Words and phrases like "Black Lives Matter," and "White Privilege" are clearly intended to describe a situation where whites have power and black don't. To level the playing field, the argument goes, we must weaken white influence and add to black influence. The Smithsonian conspicuously brought this point home with its "Whiteness" piece and White Culture Chart. Robin DiAngelo, the author of White Fragility has become the hottest speaker on the sensitivity training circuit. Universities and other institutions have asked white people to "check their privilege" and established other white-guilt inducing activities.

In the last few days, a poster here said that gender differences are not biology, but social constructs. This is where we are now with race. Race is no longer about biology. Race has become a discussion about the social constructs of what being white or black means. I even heard an All Black Lives Matter advocate say that black police officers are not black, they are blue. Social constructs abound all over. The language of race that reflects social constructs is the vehicle for any racial discussion. That makes discussions easier because it allows us to talk about people in terms of victims and perps, marginalized and powerful, and more. This enables the politics of race and its accompanying pandering. Gone is any discussion about individuals.*

When the Smithsonian White Culture material was posted here, my reaction was that those items (such as the scientific method) were not evidence of "whiteness" but evidence of a level of culture good for all of us. The way forward is not to diminish or otherwise tear down "whiteness" or "white culture" but to expand access to it. At the same time, we need to lose the brand "whiteness" as connected with such culture.

A few weeks ago, I began a thread about Racial Primacy. I guess Andrew Sullivan provided a platform for chapter 2. I'm convinced that the path we are on with our racial discussions will in the long run eat away at what we are trying to achieve. Power is not a zero sum game. It's huge mistake to label our highly successful culture as a "white" culture. It's destructive to keep thinking about the "original sin" of the United States. That keeps us mired in the uselessness describing our culture in racial terms. A better way is to look at the best of what we are and what we have, understand that we can build on it together and expand the tent to cover all of us.

*In my opinion, creating a cultural construct around race is the biggest difference between how we look at race here compared to, say, Western Europe.

 
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I'm convinced that the path we are on with our racial discussions will in the long run eat away at what we are trying to achieve.

What are we trying to achieve?

In the frequent discussions here, it sounds like conservatives love the melting pot. We all go in and come out uniformly "American".

I think most of us liberals are in the the beef stew camp, we all go in and we all stay potato, or carrot, or beef.

To me, any discussion of our stew has to include the fact the carrot and the potato are different. In the melting pot, there is no difference in the end.

So what is it we are trying to achieve, a melting pot or a stew? If it is the latter, aren't the potatoes and carrots just different and should the taste of potato overpower the taste of carrot?
 
What are we trying to achieve?

In the frequent discussions here, it sounds like conservatives love the melting pot. We all go in and come out uniformly "American".

I think most of us liberals are in the the beef stew camp, we all go in and we all stay potato, or carrot, or beef.

To me, any discussion of our stew has to include the fact the carrot and the potato are different. In the melting pot, there is no difference in the end.

So what is it we are trying to achieve, a melting pot or a stew? If it is the latter, aren't the potatoes and carrots just different and should the taste of potato overpower the taste of carrot?

Im old enough to remember going to IU/Purdue games and fans of both teams stood together for the national anthem and maintained our individual identities while doing so.

It’s not “either/or,” marv.
 
What are we trying to achieve?

In the frequent discussions here, it sounds like conservatives love the melting pot. We all go in and come out uniformly "American".

I think most of us liberals are in the the beef stew camp, we all go in and we all stay potato, or carrot, or beef.

To me, any discussion of our stew has to include the fact the carrot and the potato are different. In the melting pot, there is no difference in the end.

So what is it we are trying to achieve, a melting pot or a stew? If it is the latter, aren't the potatoes and carrots just different and should the taste of potato overpower the taste of carrot?

I don’t know, but your post just made me seriously hungry.
 
Im old enough to remember going to IU/Purdue games and fans of both teams stood together for the national anthem and maintained our individual identities while doing so.

It’s not “either/or,” marv.
Funny this happened 6 months ago in Bloomington
 
What are we trying to achieve?

In the frequent discussions here, it sounds like conservatives love the melting pot. We all go in and come out uniformly "American".

I think most of us liberals are in the the beef stew camp, we all go in and we all stay potato, or carrot, or beef.

To me, any discussion of our stew has to include the fact the carrot and the potato are different. In the melting pot, there is no difference in the end.

So what is it we are trying to achieve, a melting pot or a stew? If it is the latter, aren't the potatoes and carrots just different and should the taste of potato overpower the taste of carrot?

In a stew, you still tend to have flavors bleed into each other. A carrot is a carrot yes, but when it has been stewed with beef, potato, and a tomato base, its flavor tends to take on some of the characteristics of the foods it is cooked with. Our civic culture used to be the tomato base that held it all together in that stew. Now it is my belief that many on the left are arguing that the tomato base is actually just a construct of the beef in the stew and that for a carrot or potato to take on any of that flavoring ruins them as carrots and potatoes.

So no, I don't feel you are arguing for a stew, you are arguing for a plate that looks like this:

d4bb496b3e0dc77e960864441db9d609--kid-meals-toddler-meals.jpg
 
Im old enough to remember going to IU/Purdue games and fans of both teams stood together for the national anthem and maintained our individual identities while doing so.

It’s not “either/or,” marv.

You sure you want to use that analogy? In most stadiums the best seats belong to the home team. The visitors get the scraps.
 
In a stew, you still tend to have flavors bleed into each other. A carrot is a carrot yes, but when it has been stewed with beef, potato, and a tomato base, its flavor tends to take on some of the characteristics of the foods it is cooked with. Our civic culture used to be the tomato base that held it all together in that stew. Now it is my belief that many on the left are arguing that the tomato base is actually just a construct of the beef in the stew and that for a carrot or potato to take on any of that flavoring ruins them as carrots and potatoes.

So no, I don't feel you are arguing for a stew, you are arguing for a plate that looks like this:

d4bb496b3e0dc77e960864441db9d609--kid-meals-toddler-meals.jpg

Actually that is our current look. You live in Carmel right? How diverse is Carmel compared to Circle Township? Beef stew is why the Obama rule on housing existed. Trump overturned it to keep the plate looking like above.
 
You sure you want to use that analogy? In most stadiums the best seats belong to the home team. The visitors get the scraps.

Thinking in terms of good seats and bad seats isn’t the point, marv. If that makes a difference for you, think of a neutral site.
 
Actually that is our current look. You live in Carmel right? How diverse is Carmel compared to Circle Township? Beef stew is why the Obama rule on housing existed. Trump overturned it to keep the plate looking like above.

I don’t why Obama made his housing rule, or why you would support it. My support of the Obama rule is based on the ideas I talked about which is we can live together in one community without needing to think of carrots and potatoes.
 
I don’t why Obama made his housing rule, or why you would support it. My support of the Obama rule is based on the ideas I talked about which is we can live together in one community without needing to think of carrots and potatoes.

BUT WE AREN'T "one community"! We have had 300 years to get this right, and by ANY measurable standard we are not there. I support attempts to more integrate America, and that means something other than lily white suburbs. And that integration shouldn't require the minority to pretend they are White like gays had to pretend to be straight to fit in.

Full disclosure, I live in a lily white neighborhood. We bought here because west side suburban Bloomington was much cheaper than inside city limits, but much closer than Greene, Lawrence, or Morgan counties. I have no idea why I can walk the neighborhood today and not see a Black or Latino. It wasn't this way years ago, but it is now. And frankly it is wrong. So if there are any issues to this neighborhood being this way, I have no problems with a program to try and balance that. In fact I would welcome efforts to diversify.

As to your other post about moving the football game to a neutral field, how do you move America to a neutral field. We know that prestigious colleges have legacy admissions. Those are simply a home field advantage for the Whites because Great Grandpappy was allowed in and the Black wasn't. The college Greek system isn't racially diverse, Google it yourself. What is a selling point to joining the Greek system? Meeting people who can help you in your career. If that is true, and I have no reason to doubt it is, then there is another home field advantage for the White.

I've linked the study before showing that people with African sounding names get fewer responses to resumes. Isn't that just another home field advantage for the White? I don't want to speak for you, so chime in on this one because the implications from your posts sounds to me that the solution is to make sure all kids have white sounding names. I don't believe that is necessarily what you are saying, so what is the way to address that issue?

Many Whites have issues with Black hairstyles. That goes way back, the Afro was "in" in the 60s and it also wasn't liked by Whites back then. Is the solution for Whites to learn to accept different hair styles, or for Blacks to adopt the hair styles of Whites? Because I am willing to suggest that this issue can impact employment.

If a Black person has dreadlocks and an African sounding name, do you believe they will face zero hiring discrimination in the US today? If you think they will face discrimination, is it their fault or the fault of people hiring?
 
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Actually that is our current look. You live in Carmel right? How diverse is Carmel compared to Circle Township? Beef stew is why the Obama rule on housing existed. Trump overturned it to keep the plate looking like above.

No, don't live in Carmel. I am in Hamilton County though. That Obama rule was bad and a horrible overreach. It looks to put high density development in the low density suburbs and to take zoning rights away from locals. Trump was right to end it. Different discussion on that though.

I am not tracking why we moved from a shared "culture" to the number of different items in the stew? I was saying that something is needed to tie the stew together and you jumped to saying that my stew has too much meat to veggie ratio. Carmel is not as diverse w.r.t. black and white, but it has a higher Asian influence than Indianapolis. So maybe you have more potatoes available in an area to make stew and another area has more carrots or peas or whatever, but you all have access to the liquid base which is what generally holds the stew together. It is something that soaks into everything in the stew. But in the cultural context, that is now getting labeled as "white" and therefore not something that binds us all.
 
And that integration shouldn't require the minority to pretend they are White

You seem to be stuck in the concept of cultural constructs about what is black and white. That is the the problem in my view, and also in the way I read Sullivan's piece.

No, blacks should not pretend to be white to have agency in America. Nor should they pretend to be black. (I'm thinking of "if you don't vote for Biden you ain't black here.) People should not be anything but strive pursue their own interests. Fundamentally changing the community, or burning it down, will not help any member of the community achieve. That is why the social job is to remove racial barriers, not increase barriers and distinctions through social constructs.
 
But in the cultural context, that is now getting labeled as "white" and therefore not something that binds us all

The problem is we traditionally have not allowed minorities any say on what binds us. Their choices have been to like what Whites like or be outsiders. But we made exceptions. We allowed people to proudly wave rebel flags and build confederate monuments. Until recently I never heard conservatives complain about either, how does a rebel flag unite us as a nation?

I agree we need some binding agent in our stew. That agent might easily be our efforts to see that all races, religions, and genders have equal opportunity and equal treatment.

The food metaphor works well for me, growing up in southern Indiana in the 60s meant pizza was an exotic meal to the nearly daily choice of one of tenderloin, meat loaf, fried chicken, or fried fish. Our Latino friends added some great flavors to America. I am glad we didn't try to force them into tenderloins. Same for all the other nationalities. I still love a burger, but it is made better be having Chinese the day before and Mexican the night after.
 
No, don't live in Carmel. I am in Hamilton County though. That Obama rule was bad and a horrible overreach. It looks to put high density development in the low density suburbs and to take zoning rights away from locals. Trump was right to end it. Different discussion on that though.

I am not tracking why we moved from a shared "culture" to the number of different items in the stew? I was saying that something is needed to tie the stew together and you jumped to saying that my stew has too much meat to veggie ratio. Carmel is not as diverse w.r.t. black and white, but it has a higher Asian influence than Indianapolis. So maybe you have more potatoes available in an area to make stew and another area has more carrots or peas or whatever, but you all have access to the liquid base which is what generally holds the stew together. It is something that soaks into everything in the stew. But in the cultural context, that is now getting labeled as "white" and therefore not something that binds us all.

I'd love to hear your perspective on this and how it relates to the culture of Iowa football.
 
I'd love to hear your perspective on this and how it relates to the culture of Iowa football.

Iowa football culture sucks. The only good thing they do is wave at those kids in the hospital. Does that work for you?

Do you have an opinion? Sorry if I went to far with the analogy but I think labeling traditional things that were viewed as American as "white" is going to go a long way towards Balkanizing this country.
 
The problem is we traditionally have not allowed minorities any say on what binds us. Their choices have been to like what Whites like or be outsiders. But we made exceptions. We allowed people to proudly wave rebel flags and build confederate monuments. Until recently I never heard conservatives complain about either, how does a rebel flag unite us as a nation?

I agree we need some binding agent in our stew. That agent might easily be our efforts to see that all races, religions, and genders have equal opportunity and equal treatment.

The food metaphor works well for me, growing up in southern Indiana in the 60s meant pizza was an exotic meal to the nearly daily choice of one of tenderloin, meat loaf, fried chicken, or fried fish. Our Latino friends added some great flavors to America. I am glad we didn't try to force them into tenderloins. Same for all the other nationalities. I still love a burger, but it is made better be having Chinese the day before and Mexican the night after.

This conversation is exasperating. I don't know if you intentionally miss the point I try to make in these discussions or if I just do a bad job of explaining myself.

I do know that I give up though.
 
This conversation is exasperating. I don't know if you intentionally miss the point I try to make in these discussions or if I just do a bad job of explaining myself.

I do know that I give up though.

Don't worry, I get that same feeling in these discussions. In person over a beer (or an iced tea in my case) we would find common ground but somehow in this medium it eludes us. I am not sure why.
 
Iowa football culture sucks. The only good thing they do is wave at those kids in the hospital. Does that work for you?

Do you have an opinion? Sorry if I went to far with the analogy but I think labeling traditional things that were viewed as American as "white" is going to go a long way towards Balkanizing this country.

Does that work for me? Not really because it feels like you don't want to engage deeply enough on it to discuss. What sucks about Iowa football culture? Do the people who have been part of it and have raised issues with it have a legitimate point or are they just losers with a grudge?

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you talk about traditional American things being viewed as white, but why do you think some people might feel that some things that are viewed by some others as "American" might view them as "white"? Could it be that they weren't allowed to be part of setting the "tradition"?

Ultimately, I don't think we're all that far apart in what we all want despite what folks like CoH say and I don't see any great danger of Balkanizing this country past people too desperately gripping on things that aren't important.
 
The problem is we traditionally have not allowed minorities any say on what binds us. Their choices have been to like what Whites like or be outsiders. But we made exceptions. We allowed people to proudly wave rebel flags and build confederate monuments. Until recently I never heard conservatives complain about either, how does a rebel flag unite us as a nation?

I agree we need some binding agent in our stew. That agent might easily be our efforts to see that all races, religions, and genders have equal opportunity and equal treatment.

The food metaphor works well for me, growing up in southern Indiana in the 60s meant pizza was an exotic meal to the nearly daily choice of one of tenderloin, meat loaf, fried chicken, or fried fish. Our Latino friends added some great flavors to America. I am glad we didn't try to force them into tenderloins. Same for all the other nationalities. I still love a burger, but it is made better be having Chinese the day before and Mexican the night after.

What you are missing is why your comment that "we traditionally have not allowed minorities any say on what binds us" is so counterproductive. The American dream is for all of us, not for whites. You (and many others) see the American Dream as a white construct. That is why we can't solve the problem and why things like kneel downs and other finger pointing at our past is making the problem worse.

MLK has your answer:

Let us not wallow in the valley of despair, I say to you today, my friends.

And so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

 
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What you are missing is why your comment that "we traditionally have not allowed minorities any say on what binds us" is so counterproductive.

I'd humbly suggest that it is counterproductive to not acknowledge that "we traditionally have not allowed minorities any say on what binds us". That we have begun to do so is a huge step forward towards having a stronger and more unified United States.
 
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I'd humbly suggest that it is counterproductive to not acknowledge that "we traditionally have not allowed minorities any say on what binds us". That we have begun to do so is a huge step forward towards having a stronger and more unified United States.

How would the ideals that bind us be different with minority participation?

MLK seems to accept those ties and wants all Americans to live under them. At least that is how I understand his iconic I Have a Deam speech.
 
What you are missing is why your comment that "we traditionally have not allowed minorities any say on what binds us" is so counterproductive. The American dream is for all of us, not for whites. You (and many others) see the American Dream as a white construct. That is why we can't solve the problem and why things like kneel downs and other finger pointing at our past is making the problem worse.

MLK has you answer:

Let us not wallow in the valley of despair, I say to you today, my friends.

And so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.


For a long time in America the business success path has been a suit, short hair, clean-shaven. Why? Who decided that? Did Blacks have equal input (or women for that matter)? To be fair, Kilts or Kimonos aren't accepted either but why? The obvious answer is that the people who determined this were pretty conservative white males. So for a couple generations the game started out that anyone can be successful, so long as they fit the conservative White male concept of what a success should look like.

Society has built a lot of this, "you can be who you are, so long as it fits into the narrow constructs we White men have created over the past century".

I started playing D&D when it was brand new to the world. People didn't get it, we were clearly Satan worshipers or mentally insane. There was a real hysteria in the late 70s over D&D. I want people free to like what they like, that might be D&D, that might be baseball, that might be (God Forbid) soccer. It might be drinking beer, or smoking a joint. It might be wearing a suit, it might be wearing a kimono. It might be being clean shaven, it might be having a grizzly Adams beard. It might be having tattoos, piercings, both, neither. My point is in all those type of items we have let White men set the Overton window with no input from anyone else. Why not just don't care and literally not care if someone is wearing a ceremonial Native American headdress and only judge them on their character. Isn't that what MLK stood for?

And in every one of those instances, you know people fitting outside the "norm" are discriminated against. Be it long hair, dreadlocks, beards, tattoos, piercings, etc.
 
How would the ideals that bind us be different with minority participation?

MLK seems to accept those ties and wants all Americans to live under them. At least that is how I understand his iconic I Have a Deam speech.

When I look at that speech, I that he had a "dream" instead of a "reality" and suspect that you are misapplying his words.

If one is looking to have a social compact, I likewise suspect one would want to have as broad participation as possible.
 
For a long time in America the business success path has been a suit, short hair, clean-shaven. Why? Who decided that? Did Blacks have equal input (or women for that matter)? To be fair, Kilts or Kimonos aren't accepted either but why? The obvious answer is that the people who determined this were pretty conservative white males. So for a couple generations the game started out that anyone can be successful, so long as they fit the conservative White male concept of what a success should look like.

Society has built a lot of this, "you can be who you are, so long as it fits into the narrow constructs we White men have created over the past century".

I started playing D&D when it was brand new to the world. People didn't get it, we were clearly Satan worshipers or mentally insane. There was a real hysteria in the late 70s over D&D. I want people free to like what they like, that might be D&D, that might be baseball, that might be (God Forbid) soccer. It might be drinking beer, or smoking a joint. It might be wearing a suit, it might be wearing a kimono. It might be being clean shaven, it might be having a grizzly Adams beard. It might be having tattoos, piercings, both, neither. My point is in all those type of items we have let White men set the Overton window with no input from anyone else. Why not just don't care and literally not care if someone is wearing a ceremonial Native American headdress and only judge them on their character. Isn't that what MLK stood for?

And in every one of those instances, you know people fitting outside the "norm" are discriminated against. Be it long hair, dreadlocks, beards, tattoos, piercings, etc.

For purposes of this discussion I'll stipulate that what you say is true.

You imply that there was something intrinsically wrong with suits and ties. If blacks were excluded it was because they were black, not because they didn't wear suits and ties. The kind of discrimination you suggest is not based on skin color. Ask President Lincoln, or maybe President Trump.

FWIW, I'm strongly in favor of more social and stylistic diversity. (I know, not your exact point). I think Coogan's Bluff is a cool movie. I think too many people cloistered in academia and government service have too much say-so over the rest of us. I think the kinds of diversity you seek is way more than race, and I agree with that part.
 
If one is looking to have a social compact, I likewise suspect one would want to have as broad participation as possible.

In other words, more process and more participation begets better results. Maybe. But not necessarily.
 
For a long time in America the business success path has been a suit, short hair, clean-shaven. Why? Who decided that? Did Blacks have equal input (or women for that matter)? To be fair, Kilts or Kimonos aren't accepted either but why? The obvious answer is that the people who determined this were pretty conservative white males. So for a couple generations the game started out that anyone can be successful, so long as they fit the conservative White male concept of what a success should look like.

Society has built a lot of this, "you can be who you are, so long as it fits into the narrow constructs we White men have created over the past century".

I started playing D&D when it was brand new to the world. People didn't get it, we were clearly Satan worshipers or mentally insane. There was a real hysteria in the late 70s over D&D. I want people free to like what they like, that might be D&D, that might be baseball, that might be (God Forbid) soccer. It might be drinking beer, or smoking a joint. It might be wearing a suit, it might be wearing a kimono. It might be being clean shaven, it might be having a grizzly Adams beard. It might be having tattoos, piercings, both, neither. My point is in all those type of items we have let White men set the Overton window with no input from anyone else. Why not just don't care and literally not care if someone is wearing a ceremonial Native American headdress and only judge them on their character. Isn't that what MLK stood for?

And in every one of those instances, you know people fitting outside the "norm" are discriminated against. Be it long hair, dreadlocks, beards, tattoos, piercings, etc.

Were you down in the sewers unable to distinguish fantasy from reality and tragically killing each other? I remember the "horrors" of D&D and it almost was as grave a danger to the moral fiber of our youth as that rock-n-roll music. If only kids these days would listen to some good ol' American rock-n-roll instead of that evil rap music, they'd be okay. :rolleyes:
 
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In other words, more process and more participation begets better results. Maybe. But not necessarily.

I'm sure that you think that we'd have joyful and harmonious ties binding us if only I'd accept your view of things, but that's not much of a social compact. ;)
 
In other words, can we only empower oppressed or marginalized people by diminishing power of those seen as "oppressors"?

As you consider this question, read this Andrew Sullivan piece.

There are many facets to what Sullivan writes. Here is some of my reactions--starting with this paragraph:

After all, the core truth of our condition, this theory argues, is that we live in a system of interlocking oppressions that penalize various identity groups in a society. And all power is zero-sum: you either have power over others or they have power over you. To the extent that men exercise power, for example, women don’t; in so far as straight people wield power, gays don’t; and so on. There is no mutually beneficial, non-zero-sum advancement in this worldview. All power is gained only through some other group’s loss. And so the point became not simply to interpret the world, but to change it, to coin a phrase, an imperative which explains why some critics call this theory a form of neo-Marxism.
I also reject this view. Unfortunately we are unmistakably marching in this direction with our views about race and racism. Words and phrases like "Black Lives Matter," and "White Privilege" are clearly intended to describe a situation where whites have power and black don't. To level the playing field, the argument goes, we must weaken white influence and add to black influence. The Smithsonian conspicuously brought this point home with its "Whiteness" piece and White Culture Chart. Robin DiAngelo, the author of White Fragility has become the hottest speaker on the sensitivity training circuit. Universities and other institutions have asked white people to "check their privilege" and established other white-guilt inducing activities.

In the last few days, a poster here said that gender differences are not biology, but social constructs. This is where we are now with race. Race is no longer about biology. Race has become a discussion about the social constructs of what being white or black means. I even heard an All Black Lives Matter advocate say that black police officers are not black, they are blue. Social constructs abound all over. The language of race that reflects social constructs is the vehicle for any racial discussion. That makes discussions easier because it allows us to talk about people in terms of victims and perps, marginalized and powerful, and more. This enables the politics of race and its accompanying pandering. Gone is any discussion about individuals.*

When the Smithsonian White Culture material was posted here, my reaction was that those items (such as the scientific method) were not evidence of "whiteness" but evidence of a level of culture good for all of us. The way forward is not to diminish or otherwise tear down "whiteness" or "white culture" but to expand access to it. At the same time, we need to lose the brand "whiteness" as connected with such culture.

A few weeks ago, I began a thread about Racial Primacy. I guess Andrew Sullivan provided a platform for chapter 2. I'm convinced that the path we are on with our racial discussions will in the long run eat away at what we are trying to achieve. Power is not a zero sum game. It's huge mistake to label our highly successful culture as a "white" culture. It's destructive to keep thinking about the "original sin" of the United States. That keeps us mired in the uselessness describing our culture in racial terms. A better way is to look at the best of what we are and what we have, understand that we can build on it together and expand the tent to cover all of us.

*In my opinion, creating a cultural construct around race is the biggest difference between how we look at race here compared to, say, Western Europe.


the crux of the linked article was blatantly plagiarized from a speech given by a noted professor who hit on most of the same points, and did so using the exact same "reasoning".


 
For purposes of this discussion I'll stipulate that what you say is true.

You imply that there was something intrinsically wrong with suits and ties. If blacks were excluded it was because they were black, not because they didn't wear suits and ties. The kind of discrimination you suggest is not based on skin color. Ask President Lincoln, or maybe President Trump.

FWIW, I'm strongly in favor of more social and stylistic diversity. (I know, not your exact point). I think Coogan's Bluff is a cool movie. I think too many people cloistered in academia and government service have too much say-so over the rest of us. I think the kinds of diversity you seek is way more than race, and I agree with that part.

I am saying that Blacks, Natives, women, others, were not at the table when we formed our societal rules. They had no input. Nada. We need to have a new discussion on what it means to be an American, an inclusive discussion.

We decided it was American to fly the confederate flag, yet I see that as horribly divisive.

Here is what is strange, I am an old straight white Christian male. I probably align very close to you and Crazy in that discussion. I just want everything to be out in the open, not based on what we Whites decided many years ago.

The war on drugs is a great example. Worshiping the confederacy is another.

Blacks say they are discriminated against and Whites doubt them and suggest that it is somehow tied to a Black perspective. That seems to be where our disagreement is.
 
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For purposes of this discussion I'll stipulate that what you say is true.

You imply that there was something intrinsically wrong with suits and ties. If blacks were excluded it was because they were black, not because they didn't wear suits and ties. The kind of discrimination you suggest is not based on skin color. Ask President Lincoln, or maybe President Trump.

FWIW, I'm strongly in favor of more social and stylistic diversity. (I know, not your exact point). I think Coogan's Bluff is a cool movie. I think too many people cloistered in academia and government service have too much say-so over the rest of us. I think the kinds of diversity you seek is way more than race, and I agree with that part.
I didn't interpret it in the same manner. My interpretation was that there was something intrinsically wrong with the power of the source deeming such attire as appropriate. I've always understood the reality of business dress codes, formal or informal. I've never liked suits and ties, but I've worn plenty of them because that was part of how I was judged. Dress for success, power ties, yada yada yada.
There are obviously situations in which power is a zero sum game, but I don't believe it's always "you win - I loose". For example, an environmental regulation may help to preserve breathable air for future generations, while costing my company enormous profits. I can afford to by some influence and "poof" the regulations are gone....hardly zero sum.
 
I am saying that Blacks, Natives, women, others, were not at the table when we formed our societal rules. They had no input. Nada. We need to have a new discussion on what it means to be an American, an inclusive discussion.

We decided it was American to fly the confederate flag, yet I see that as horribly divisive.

Here is what is strange, I am an old straight white Christian male. I probably align very close to you and Crazy in that discussion. I just want everything to be out in the open, not based on what we Whites decided many years ago.

The war on drugs is a great example. Worshiping the confederacy is another.

Blacks say they are discriminated against and Whites doubt them and suggest that it is somehow tied to a Black perspective. That seems to be where our disagreement is.

You are being highly selective. Blacks have a significant, if not outsized, influence on music.

But more importantly, MLK didn't reject the social rules just cuz blacks were historically excluded from creating those rules. The notion that those rules must be kicked to the curb and new ones enacted in order "fundamentally change" the country is not useful and is just a chickenshit evasioin of the real issues, such as providing equal access to the benefits of our social compact. This is where the real work needs to be done, not in finger pointing at our history.
 
Actually that is our current look. You live in Carmel right? How diverse is Carmel compared to Circle Township? Beef stew is why the Obama rule on housing existed. Trump overturned it to keep the plate looking like above.
As COH has pointed out, this is something that the deep blue cities love. The white liberals fight tooth and nail to keep affordable housing out of their neighborhoods. This is done by regulations.
 
I am saying that Blacks, Natives, women, others, were not at the table when we formed our societal rules. They had no input. Nada. We need to have a new discussion on what it means to be an American, an inclusive discussion.

We decided it was American to fly the confederate flag, yet I see that as horribly divisive.

Here is what is strange, I am an old straight white Christian male. I probably align very close to you and Crazy in that discussion. I just want everything to be out in the open, not based on what we Whites decided many years ago.

The war on drugs is a great example. Worshiping the confederacy is another.

Blacks say they are discriminated against and Whites doubt them and suggest that it is somehow tied to a Black perspective. That seems to be where our disagreement is.

Is it white to believe in equality under the law?
Is private property rights white?
Is a belief in the freedom of speech and openness in dialogue white?

Those are the types of things I would be speaking about that should bind us irrespective of our race or where our ancestors came from. Frankly, all the white people in Portland rioting the past 60 days are not what I would consider part of our traditional fabric either...

Another point, people from a European background have been and still are the primary inhabitants of this country. It is not odd that the country would tend to follow more European trends than Japanese (kimonos) or some other area of the globe. Business suits are common wear for professionals all over the globe, even if they were started by white people. And "clean cut" is not just a white thing, it is a professional thing across the board. Weird sounding white names get passed over as do white people who couldn't pass a metal detector because of all of the stuff in their face or too many visible tattoos, etc. We all judge people on appearance and dress is part of that. My lilly white butt will judge a black man in dreadlocks and a 3 piece suit much more favorably than a white guy with a crew cut and sweats. Impressions matter.

"Well the suits are a construct of white people..." I don't necessarily agree, but what if they are? They are accepted around the world at this point. Sometimes that is how things go.

Finally, even if they did not hold political power for much of our history, it is asinine to say that blacks and hispanics have not had an impact on our shared culture.
 
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I didn't interpret it in the same manner. My interpretation was that there was something intrinsically wrong with the power of the source deeming such attire as appropriate. I've always understood the reality of business dress codes, formal or informal. I've never liked suits and ties, but I've worn plenty of them because that was part of how I was judged. Dress for success, power ties, yada yada yada.
There are obviously situations in which power is a zero sum game, but I don't believe it's always "you win - I loose". For example, an environmental regulation may help to preserve breathable air for future generations, while costing my company enormous profits. I can afford to by some influence and "poof" the regulations are gone....hardly zero sum.

I think when you consider individual and specialized conditions, you can find power as a zero sum game. My point has more to do with society as whole. We can help marginalized people by removing barriers to achievement and access to more “power”. I’ve mentioned better education of marginalized populations as a starting point. This kind of effort does not require white-guilt trips or similar exercises.
 
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