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Interesting Comment In Archie's Postgame Presser

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Dec 15, 2012
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While discussing the continued problems we're having with turnovers, Coach Archie mentioned we might have to slow things down a little to keep from throwing the ball away. That seems like a double-edged sword to me - if we slow down, we may turn the ball over less, but I would think it would put more pressure on shooters making shots at the end of a possession - and it doesn't seem like we're very good at that. I heard the commentators during the game talk about how Collins at Northwestern made a concerted effort to get his team to speed things up. And it's starting to show if you look at the pace data.


At this point, it's pretty clear we're going to turn the ball over a lot. It's also pretty clear we aren't going to shoot it at a high level. So, as crazy as it sounds, what if we sped things up on offense - A LOT?
 
Turnovers are not the problem, IU easily won the turnover battle last night.

The problem, or one of of them, is that IU starts a guard the caliber of Durham; in the BIG.
Seriously, if you were picking teams on the playground and had Northwesterns guards and IU's guards, WHO WOULD YOU PICK FOR YOUR FIVE? It's embarrassing IU is compelled to go with this lineup as a starting five. He may be a "great kid" but he has no business playing at this level..... Oops! There goes another ball off his foot/shin....

And Phinesee...... bitterly disappointing....

McHoop
 
Turnovers are not the problem, IU easily won the turnover battle last night.

Our turnover rate is currently 190th in the country. I respectfully disagree with your opinion because the data say it's a problem.

My question is, since we don't seem to be able to fix it with our guards, maybe we just give in to it and try to get more possessions...fewer passes, fewer sets, fewer weaves, fewer opportunities for turnovers...more shots, more drives, more possessions.

(And I know that sounds a lot like the disgusting, ugly basketball of the late Crean years, but it seems like something has to change)
 
Our turnover rate is currently 190th in the country. I respectfully disagree with your opinion because the data say it's a problem.

My question is, since we don't seem to be able to fix it with our guards, maybe we just give in to it and try to get more possessions...fewer passes, fewer sets, fewer weaves, fewer opportunities for turnovers...more shots, more drives, more possessions.

(And I know that sounds a lot like the disgusting, ugly basketball of the late Crean years, but it seems like something has to change)
I should've been more clear, turnovers weren't the reason IU lost last night. They have hurt us at other times this year, like Florida State for example.
 
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At this point, it's pretty clear we're going to turn the ball over a lot. It's also pretty clear we aren't going to shoot it at a high level. So, as crazy as it sounds, what if we sped things up on offense - A LOT?

If only there was a way to instruct on turnovers and shooting.....oh wait
 
The problem, or one of of them, is that IU starts a guard the caliber of Durham; in the BIG.
Seriously, if you were picking teams on the playground and had Northwesterns guards and IU's guards, WHO WOULD YOU PICK FOR YOUR FIVE? It's embarrassing IU is compelled to go with this lineup as a starting five. He may be a "great kid" but he has no business playing at this level..... Oops! There goes another ball off his foot/shin....

And Phinesee...... bitterly disappointing....

McHoop
Amazing to me that IU is in a position that their starting backcourt could be considered the worst in the conference.

We're behind Northwestern, let that sink in.
 
At this point, it's pretty clear we're going to turn the ball over a lot. It's also pretty clear we aren't going to shoot it at a high level. So, as crazy as it sounds, what if we sped things up on offense - A LOT?

If only there was a way to instruct on turnovers and shooting.....oh wait

I know...it's sad, isn't it? I just wonder how you play the hand you have, is all.
 
There are 3 IU players that are not cutting it.

Al Durham
Rob Phinisee
Jerome Hunter

So what would you do if you are CAM looking at the current dilemma?
Can things offensively and defensively be simplified to help these guys?
Are there players on the bench who will get a LOT better with experience?
 
Turnovers are not the problem, IU easily won the turnover battle last night.
Turnovers are a huge problem when you do so many other things poorly on the offensive end. Giving up the ball becomes that much more punitive when very little else works, as well.
 
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There are 3 IU players that are not cutting it.

Al Durham
Rob Phinisee
Jerome Hunter

So what would you do if you are CAM looking at the current dilemma?
Can things offensively and defensively be simplified to help these guys?
Are there players on the bench who will get a LOT better with experience?
We don’t have the horses. Miller should’ve cleaned house. If the APR was an issue, he should’ve bitten the bullet in the interest of the long term health of the program. As it is, we just don’t have enough good players.
 
We don’t have the horses. Miller should’ve cleaned house. If the APR was an issue, he should’ve bitten the bullet in the interest of the long term health of the program. As it is, we just don’t have enough good players.
That would have been the thing to do. I mean it's not like we have even been close to making any tournaments since Archie got here. I for one don't think he is the one for the job as he is in way over his head but too dumb to admit it. Of course there are 3+ million reasons annually that probably goes a long way in his denial. We need to get someone that is a proven commodity in coaching that isn't the next coming from a mid-major.
 
While discussing the continued problems we're having with turnovers, Coach Archie mentioned we might have to slow things down a little to keep from throwing the ball away. That seems like a double-edged sword to me - if we slow down, we may turn the ball over less, but I would think it would put more pressure on shooters making shots at the end of a possession - and it doesn't seem like we're very good at that. I heard the commentators during the game talk about how Collins at Northwestern made a concerted effort to get his team to speed things up. And it's starting to show if you look at the pace data.


At this point, it's pretty clear we're going to turn the ball over a lot. It's also pretty clear we aren't going to shoot it at a high level. So, as crazy as it sounds, what if we sped things up on offense - A LOT?

We need a guard who can perform dribble penetration whether it's against a zone or a man-to-man defense. It breaks down the opponent's defense and enables the guard to either pass it to an open big man or go all the way for a layup. If a big man wasn't open, I used to go airborne and then use the rim to prevent the defender from blocking my shot. The defense usually had no idea which side of the basket I was going to finish up on.

What's the benefits of dribble penetration? Your team scores more frequently and has a lot of opportunities for the old-fashioned 3-point play. It also gets the opposing team in foul trouble.

I'd also like to see us mix things up at times because we're too predictable. In other words, I would like to see us go to a full-court defense at times. What happens is the opponents then take longer to get the ball across the 10-second line and they get a late start on their offense as a result. It also wears out the opponents if they don't have much depth.

The Hoosiers also need to improve their free throw percentage. I would recommend having each player take a deep breath before attempting each free throw.
 
We don’t have the horses. Miller should’ve cleaned house. If the APR was an issue, he should’ve bitten the bullet in the interest of the long term health of the program. As it is, we just don’t have enough good players.
 
Amazing to me that IU is in a position that their starting backcourt could be considered the worst in the conference.

We're behind Northwestern, let that sink in.
Why were you lecturing me yesterday about my comments on our guards?
 
Al is just horrible handling the ball. It's like it's a hot potato in his hands. Several times last night he had no pressure on him, no defensive player even nearby, and he just losses the dribble, has to run to recover it etc. It just disrupts the entire offensive flow.
 
Yes, it really is about the players, but the truth is that our bench and our four freshmen are also as much of the problem as are Phinesee, Durham and Hunter. Yes, Galloway is starting to contribute a little (although he mainly stands in the corner while the defense ignores him), but Leal and Lander seem to be useless. Has there ever been a Mr. Basketball at IU who doesn't even get into the game? And even when Lander made one shot yesterday, he never returned. I am sure that Miller has no faith in any of them because of what he sees in practice. So the question really is, what did he see in them to make them two of his four freshmen recruits? And Geronimo. Who knows if he will ever play? Are these major recruiting errors or is something else going on with them? I want them to succeed but they cannot succeed without playing time. Will they get discouraged and transfer like others under Miller? Finally the announcers were talking about our tough schedule. Well, Stanford did beat Arizona, a team falling apart, but nobody else significant. Butler lost to Southern Illinois and beat Providence whose only good win is against Seton Hall who is down this year at 5-5. So the point is, we have not really beaten anybody who is that good. Losing to Northwestern is never good if you are IU. The causes are numerous and all of them must be addressed but to me, we just don't have the talent. Who deserves the blame is subject to debate.
 
Al is just horrible handling the ball. It's like it's a hot potato in his hands. Several times last night he had no pressure on him, no defensive player even nearby, and he just losses the dribble, has to run to recover it etc. It just disrupts the entire offensive flow.

And this has been a problem for Al for quite some time. Yet, he's still out there. He's still getting the minutes.

Now, the obvious response to that is "Who do we have that's any better?" Leaving aside any discussion about recruiting and roster construction for a second, this strikes right at the heart of my broken-record rants about the importance of culture...and how ours is broken and needs to be radically changed.

If our program's culture was where it should be, there would be little tolerance for such chronic bad play. Either Al would have fixed these problems, or somebody else would be getting those minutes. But that's what we do -- we tolerate unsatisfactory things, and for long periods of time.
 
Yes, it really is about the players, but the truth is that our bench and our four freshmen are also as much of the problem as are Phinesee, Durham and Hunter. Yes, Galloway is starting to contribute a little (although he mainly stands in the corner while the defense ignores him), but Leal and Lander seem to be useless. Has there ever been a Mr. Basketball at IU who doesn't even get into the game? And even when Lander made one shot yesterday, he never returned. I am sure that Miller has no faith in any of them because of what he sees in practice. So the question really is, what did he see in them to make them two of his four freshmen recruits? And Geronimo. Who knows if he will ever play? Are these major recruiting errors or is something else going on with them? I want them to succeed but they cannot succeed without playing time. Will they get discouraged and transfer like others under Miller? Finally the announcers were talking about our tough schedule. Well, Stanford did beat Arizona, a team falling apart, but nobody else significant. Butler lost to Southern Illinois and beat Providence whose only good win is against Seton Hall who is down this year at 5-5. So the point is, we have not really beaten anybody who is that good. Losing to Northwestern is never good if you are IU. The causes are numerous and all of them must be addressed but to me, we just don't have the talent. Who deserves the blame is subject to debate.
"Galloway mainly just stands in the corner" might be one of the most uninformed comments I have ever seen here. It's Christmas, I'm being kind.
 
Yes, it really is about the players, but the truth is that our bench and our four freshmen are also as much of the problem as are Phinesee, Durham and Hunter. Yes, Galloway is starting to contribute a little (although he mainly stands in the corner while the defense ignores him), but Leal and Lander seem to be useless. Has there ever been a Mr. Basketball at IU who doesn't even get into the game? And even when Lander made one shot yesterday, he never returned. I am sure that Miller has no faith in any of them because of what he sees in practice. So the question really is, what did he see in them to make them two of his four freshmen recruits? And Geronimo. Who knows if he will ever play? Are these major recruiting errors or is something else going on with them? I want them to succeed but they cannot succeed without playing time. Will they get discouraged and transfer like others under Miller? Finally the announcers were talking about our tough schedule. Well, Stanford did beat Arizona, a team falling apart, but nobody else significant. Butler lost to Southern Illinois and beat Providence whose only good win is against Seton Hall who is down this year at 5-5. So the point is, we have not really beaten anybody who is that good. Losing to Northwestern is never good if you are IU. The causes are numerous and all of them must be addressed but to me, we just don't have the talent. Who deserves the blame is subject to debate.
This roster is not well built. No shooting, no slashers, and zero front court depth.
 
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There are 3 IU players that are not cutting it.

Al Durham
Rob Phinisee
Jerome Hunter

So what would you do if you are CAM looking at the current dilemma?
Can things offensively and defensively be simplified to help these guys?
Are there players on the bench who will get a LOT better with experience?
I am ready to go with Galloway and Landers. I still have hope for Hunter.
 
There are 3 IU players that are not cutting it.

Al Durham
Rob Phinisee
Jerome Hunter

So what would you do if you are CAM looking at the current dilemma?
Can things offensively and defensively be simplified to help these guys?
Are there players on the bench who will get a LOT better with experience?
No one on the bench will get bigger though. We are starting a 6-9 forward and a 6-8 forward. They are spelled by a 6-7 guy that thinks he is Steph Curry (Hunter) and a 6-4 guy that has to play against guys who are 2-3 inches taller (Galloway).

Brunk has been out of the lineup too long for me to think he can contribute much this year.
 
I should've been more clear, turnovers weren't the reason IU lost last night. They have hurt us at other times this year, like Florida State for example.
If you are a poor shooting team, and not a dominant offensive rebounding team, you are toast if you make a lot of turnovers. Turnovers were clearly a big problem for us last night.
 
I am ready to go with Galloway and Landers. I still have hope for Hunter.
Playing Lander more minutes will cost IU at this point. Whether or not he gets up to speed or falls apart under the pressure is a big question. Especially for someone so young.
 
Playing Lander more minutes will cost IU at this point. Whether or not he gets up to speed or falls apart under the pressure is a big question. Especially for someone so young.

He is not that young. Again, OG was younger. TB and Noah both had summer birthdays like Lander.

very well could cost IU in the immediate future, but we already know starting Rob and Al cost us to lose the easiest big ten game on our schedule.
 
No one on the bench will get bigger though. We are starting a 6-9 forward and a 6-8 forward. They are spelled by a 6-7 guy that thinks he is Steph Curry (Hunter) and a 6-4 guy that has to play against guys who are 2-3 inches taller (Galloway).

Brunk has been out of the lineup too long for me to think he can contribute much this year.
Wut?
 
He is not that young. Again, OG was younger. TB and Noah both had summer birthdays like Lander.

very well could cost IU in the immediate future, but we already know starting Rob and Al cost us to lose the easiest big ten game on our schedule.
Do you think that Archie recruited Kristian anticipating that he would be the starting point guard this year and have the ability to play Armaan or Rob at the 2? That gives you a bench of Al and either Rob or Armaan. IU's depth increases immediately with two of the current starters now coming off the bench. Add Joey to that mix and this team would look different.
 
And this has been a problem for Al for quite some time. Yet, he's still out there. He's still getting the minutes.

Now, the obvious response to that is "Who do we have that's any better?" Leaving aside any discussion about recruiting and roster construction for a second, this strikes right at the heart of my broken-record rants about the importance of culture...and how ours is broken and needs to be radically changed.

If our program's culture was where it should be, there would be little tolerance for such chronic bad play. Either Al would have fixed these problems, or somebody else would be getting those minutes. But that's what we do -- we tolerate unsatisfactory things, and for long periods of time.

You just can't beat that culture drum enough, can you?
 
You just can't beat that culture drum enough, can you?

In spite of numerous invitations he's never yet been able to offer any tangible evidence or a single concrete example of what's being/been done wrong at any level since Miller took over. Nothing but purely subjective and wholly unsupported opinion - no different than claiming the favor of the gods has been lost and something needs to be done differently to appease them.

Perhaps the AD should sacrifice a goat and paint the locker room walls with its blood - could appease the Powers and make a cultural statement at the same time.
 
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We don’t have the horses. Miller should’ve cleaned house. If the APR was an issue, he should’ve bitten the bullet in the interest of the long term health of the program. As it is, we just don’t have enough good players.
Clean house? This dude can't even get 13 guys to fill out a roster with leftovers. I wonder if he'd cleaned house, would we be playing with 4-6 scholarship players?
 
You haven't watched much college basketball have you? These kids had no real off-season (at least not at the facilities) and you expect them to be superstars right away? Who were you expecting to be one and done, again? The B10 is brutal, and other teams are allowed to game plan, too. Sometimes you just take your hat off to a team playing well enough to dominate MSU their previous game. Its a long season, bro. Calm down.

Yes, it really is about the players, but the truth is that our bench and our four freshmen are also as much of the problem as are Phinesee, Durham and Hunter. Yes, Galloway is starting to contribute a little (although he mainly stands in the corner while the defense ignores him), but Leal and Lander seem to be useless. Has there ever been a Mr. Basketball at IU who doesn't even get into the game? And even when Lander made one shot yesterday, he never returned. I am sure that Miller has no faith in any of them because of what he sees in practice. So the question really is, what did he see in them to make them two of his four freshmen recruits? And Geronimo. Who knows if he will ever play? Are these major recruiting errors or is something else going on with them? I want them to succeed but they cannot succeed without playing time. Will they get discouraged and transfer like others under Miller? Finally the announcers were talking about our tough schedule. Well, Stanford did beat Arizona, a team falling apart, but nobody else significant. Butler lost to Southern Illinois and beat Providence whose only good win is against Seton Hall who is down this year at 5-5. So the point is, we have not really beaten anybody who is that good. Losing to Northwestern is never good if you are IU. The causes are numerous and all of them must be addressed but to me, we just don't have the talent. Who deserves the blame is subject to debate.
 
We don’t have the horses. Miller should’ve cleaned house. If the APR was an issue, he should’ve bitten the bullet in the interest of the long term health of the program. As it is, we just don’t have enough good players.
.

If he had cleaned house he would have had an opportunity to build the program from scratch and try to instill a new culture on day 1. That would have required having an eye toward the future. Instead he took shortcut after shortcut to try to win immediately, with no concern for changing the programs culture.


We are four years in. Here’s a question for you: name that veteran group of players that he has brought in to build his program around?

Players like Jake Forrester, Romeo Langford, D. Anderson and E Fitzner are long gone, and were each here only briefly.
Brunk is a great leader but was brought in to play only 2 years.


I see only 3 players (excluding the freshmen) on this team that he brought in that have a chance to play 4 years. Phin/Hunter/Race.

We should have a minimum of 5-6 upper class players that he brought in to play four years that bring leadership to this program and help instill culture.

This all seems so Creanish to me.
 
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