I recall when IU hired . . .

Sope Creek

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. . . some young guy in his early 30s as HC . . . from Army no less . . . and wanted to know who the heck THIS guy was coming to a proud bball tradition like IU. Then I read how he was a defense-first, no-nonsense guy who'd been on a national championship team with OSU, and had taken undersized players (they had to fit within the military's maximum height and weight limits) and beaten the likes of No. 1 South Carolina . . . so I thought maybe we ought to give this guy a chance . . . .

I don't think we have to hire a nationally renown coach with multiple national championships under his belt . . . I'd rather have someone who fits the brand (defense and complementary team play) and has shown an extraordinary ability to get his team to punch above its weight class. And then I'd have some patience . . . to watch the program develop.

I don't know what's gotten into Archie's head*, but at the moment all indications are that he's clearly in over his head. Without Trayce to anchor this team, I'd hate to consider what might have happened this season.

BTW, I've stopped watching IU bball. This from a guy who's known for throwing things at the TV for someone's lack of hustle when getting back to play defense . . . on IU's women's team. The game is the game . . . you either respect it or it'll expose you.

* I have an idea based on what someone from NC State when he was there told me, but that was in place before he got to Dayton . . . .
 
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dbmhoosier

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The problem with hiring some up and comer that isn't proven is that the fan base will eat him alive if he doesnt have success early. You hire a guy like say Pearl who has tons of street cred the fans will have a lot more patience.
 

Sope Creek

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The problem with hiring some up and comer that isn't proven is that the fan base will eat him alive if he doesnt have success early. You hire a guy like say Pearl who has tons of street cred the fans will have a lot more patience.
If IU hires Pearl he's on a short leash with me . . . if he makes one mistake, administrative or tactical, I'd be all over his ass. He's got enough baggage to repel my interest, and enough experience that he gets cut no slack whatsoever. He has to be perfect from the get-go . . . and I'm not sure that I'd consider that good enough.

He's Sampson 2.0 in my book . . . no thanks.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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I don't think we have to hire a nationally renown coach with multiple national championships under his belt . . .
I would agree. But we probably couldn't if we wanted to.

I'd rather have someone who fits the brand (defense and complementary team play)
This doesn't really matter much to me. After all, Knight didn't fit the IU brand as it existed when he was hired. They had been "The Hurryin' Hoosiers." He dispensed with that pretty quickly and it worked out pretty well for him and the program.

What was the New England Patriots' brand before Belichick got there? Does anybody care?

"and has shown an extraordinary ability to get his team to punch above its weight class.
Sounds good. Better yet, move us into the higher weight class. But I'll certainly go for punching above their weight class when that's necessary.
 

Sope Creek

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I would agree. But we probably couldn't if we wanted to.

This doesn't really matter much to me. After all, Knight didn't fit the IU brand as it existed when he was hired. They had been "The Hurryin' Hoosiers." He dispensed with that pretty quickly and it worked out pretty well for him and the program.

What was the New England Patriots' brand before Belichick got there? Does anybody care?

Sounds good. Better yet, move us into the higher weight class. But I'll certainly go for punching above their weight class when that's necessary.
(1) Astute observation. Agreed.

(2) Don't I remember . . . runnin' and gunnin' . . . free throws with "eyes it, flies it . . . it's good!", and if you couldn't shoot but could play defense there was no spot for you, not even on the bench.

(3) Shhhh . . . you'll conjure @outsideshooter.

(4) If a guy can't win against a better opponent consistently because of how good he is, he ain't gonna last in the BiG. There are too many good coaches who can with with less, and who can recruit more, than IU is currently to rely on a name for the sake of a name.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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Indiana is never going to hire Bruce Pearl, or anyone with cheating in their background for that matter.
You're right, of course. But I'd argue that's a big reason why we don't win much anymore.

See, it's not just having cheating in the background (and, really, the Aaron Craft thing was pretty tame on the cheating spectrum). I don't know anybody who wants us to cheat, or doesn't care if we do. I certainly don't.

But I asked a question earlier about whether or not people would, if they could, rewind the clock and hire John Calipari instead of Tom Crean (which was before Cal was hired by UK). He hasn't gotten into any trouble at UK in the decade he's been there. But he's had a great deal of success -- just not the way we're accustomed to it. Nobody answered me. But I'm guessing I'd get a whole lot of "No way!"

And....why? Well, probably because of what you're talking about here. Yeah, he hasn't cheated at UK -- or, at least, been caught -- but he's just one of "those kind" of coaches. And we don't have that here.
 

Sope Creek

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You're right, of course. But I'd argue that's a big reason why we don't win much anymore.

See, it's not just having cheating in the background (and, really, the Aaron Craft thing was pretty tame on the cheating spectrum). I don't know anybody who wants us to cheat, or doesn't care if we do. I certainly don't.

But I asked a question earlier about whether or not people would, if they could, rewind the clock and hire John Calipari instead of Tom Crean (which was before Cal was hired by UK). He hasn't gotten into any trouble at UK in the decade he's been there. But he's had a great deal of success -- just not the way we're accustomed to it. Nobody answered me. But I'm guessing I'd get a whole lot of "No way!"

And....why? Well, probably because of what you're talking about here. Yeah, he hasn't cheated at UK -- or, at least, been caught -- but he's just one of "those kind" of coaches. And we don't have that here.
No way!!
 

Birnk403

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. . . some young guy in his early 30s as HC . . . from Army no less . . . and wanted to know who the heck THIS guy was coming to a proud bball tradition like IU. Then I read how he was a defense-first, no-nonsense guy who'd been on a national championship team with OSU, and had taken undersized players (they had to fit within the military's maximum height and weight limits) and beaten the likes of No. 1 South Carolina . . . so I thought maybe we ought to give this guy a chance . . . .

I don't think we have to hire a nationally renown coach with multiple national championships under his belt . . . I'd rather have someone who fits the brand (defense and complementary team play) and has shown an extraordinary ability to get his team to punch above its weight class. And then I'd have some patience . . . to watch the program develop.

I don't know what's gotten into Archie's head*, but at the moment all indications are that he's clearly in over his head. Without Trayce to anchor this team, I'd hate to consider what might have happened this season.

BTW, I've stopped watching IU bball. This from a guy who's known for throwing things at the TV for someone's lack of hustle when getting back to play defense . . . on IU's women's team. The game is the game . . . you either respect it or it'll expose you.

* I have an idea based on what someone from NC State when he was there told me, but that was in place before he got to Dayton . . . .
Bill Orwig and John Ryan aren’t coming through that door . . .
 

Univee2

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. . . some young guy in his early 30s as HC . . . from Army no less . . . and wanted to know who the heck THIS guy was coming to a proud bball tradition like IU. Then I read how he was a defense-first, no-nonsense guy who'd been on a national championship team with OSU, and had taken undersized players (they had to fit within the military's maximum height and weight limits) and beaten the likes of No. 1 South Carolina . . . so I thought maybe we ought to give this guy a chance . . . .

I don't think we have to hire a nationally renown coach with multiple national championships under his belt . . . I'd rather have someone who fits the brand (defense and complementary team play) and has shown an extraordinary ability to get his team to punch above its weight class. And then I'd have some patience . . . to watch the program develop.

I don't know what's gotten into Archie's head*, but at the moment all indications are that he's clearly in over his head. Without Trayce to anchor this team, I'd hate to consider what might have happened this season.

BTW, I've stopped watching IU bball. This from a guy who's known for throwing things at the TV for someone's lack of hustle when getting back to play defense . . . on IU's women's team. The game is the game . . . you either respect it or it'll expose you.

* I have an idea based on what someone from NC State when he was there told me, but that was in place before he got to Dayton . . . .
A bit of an aside and maybe it will be a little non-PC.

I believe Knight was always looking for the kid with a little more intelligence and savvy, if you will, on top of the obvious athletic ability. Case in point: Quinn Buckner, as a freshman.

In 1972, after playing in The Old Oaken Bucket game on Saturday, Quinn suited up for the following Monday's 3 20-minute open-to-the-public intra-squad scrimmages. He sat at the end of one bench during the first "half," with Dave Bliss seated next to him, pointing out what was going on out on the court. Quinn then played the second half with the "second string." He then played the third half as part of the assumed starting five, directing the offense and pointing out at times where people needed to be. He wasn't an OMG Isiah like talent but we could see that Quinn was a floor genius. A couple of weekend practices after a grueling football season . . .

I would contend that there were a lot of other examples of this under Knight. I don't think we've seen much of this recently.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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A bit of an aside and maybe it will be a little non-PC.

I believe Knight was always looking for the kid with a little more intelligence and savvy, if you will, on top of the obvious athletic ability. Case in point: Quinn Buckner, as a freshman.

In 1972, after playing in The Old Oaken Bucket game on Saturday, Quinn suited up for the following Monday's 3 20-minute open-to-the-public intra-squad scrimmages. He sat at the end of one bench during the first "half," with Dave Bliss seated next to him, pointing out what was going on out on the court. Quinn then played the second half with the "second string." He then played the third half as part of the assumed starting five, directing the offense and pointing out at times where people needed to be. He wasn't an OMG Isiah like talent but we could see that Quinn was a floor genius. A couple of weekend practices after a grueling football season . . .

I would contend that there were a lot of other examples of this under Knight. I don't think we've seen much of this recently.
I appreciate the story. But I was hoping to find some anti-PC content. I've developed quite an appreciate for it in these almost Orwellian times. You let me down, dude.
 

Sope Creek

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A bit of an aside and maybe it will be a little non-PC.

I believe Knight was always looking for the kid with a little more intelligence and savvy, if you will, on top of the obvious athletic ability. Case in point: Quinn Buckner, as a freshman.

In 1972, after playing in The Old Oaken Bucket game on Saturday, Quinn suited up for the following Monday's 3 20-minute open-to-the-public intra-squad scrimmages. He sat at the end of one bench during the first "half," with Dave Bliss seated next to him, pointing out what was going on out on the court. Quinn then played the second half with the "second string." He then played the third half as part of the assumed starting five, directing the offense and pointing out at times where people needed to be. He wasn't an OMG Isiah like talent but we could see that Quinn was a floor genius. A couple of weekend practices after a grueling football season . . .

I would contend that there were a lot of other examples of this under Knight. I don't think we've seen much of this recently.
That's leadership. I've never seen a rational way of how one can measure it, or break it down into competencies. A lot of "talented" guys fail on this point . . . or shrink in the face of a situation that demands it.
 

Univee2

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That's leadership. I've never seen a rational way of how one can measure it, or break it down into competencies. A lot of "talented" guys fail on this point . . . or shrink in the face of a situation that demands it.
Yep. And Knight zeroed-in on that given that, as you stated, he was operating under those restrictive physical stats. The cadets were all smart as hell, just to be there. That stuck with him as an operating necessity for future success. In case some people forget, Mike Krzyzewski was one of those smart-as-hell cadets.
 
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Birnk403

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A bit of an aside and maybe it will be a little non-PC.

I believe Knight was always looking for the kid with a little more intelligence and savvy, if you will, on top of the obvious athletic ability. Case in point: Quinn Buckner, as a freshman.

In 1972, after playing in The Old Oaken Bucket game on Saturday, Quinn suited up for the following Monday's 3 20-minute open-to-the-public intra-squad scrimmages. He sat at the end of one bench during the first "half," with Dave Bliss seated next to him, pointing out what was going on out on the court. Quinn then played the second half with the "second string." He then played the third half as part of the assumed starting five, directing the offense and pointing out at times where people needed to be. He wasn't an OMG Isiah like talent but we could see that Quinn was a floor genius. A couple of weekend practices after a grueling football season . . .

I would contend that there were a lot of other examples of this under Knight. I don't think we've seen much of this recently.
QB was the two time Illinois Player of the Year on back to back state championship teams. He was a superior athlete, extremely bright, ultra competitive, and a natural leader. He was destined to be a starter the minute he got to Bloomington.
 

Univee2

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QB was the two time Illinois Player of the Year on back to back state championship teams. He was a superior athlete extremely bright, ultra competitive, and a natural leader. He was destined to be a starter the minute he got to Bloomington.
Yep. In two sports.
 

Sope Creek

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True . . . but Buckner never set the world on fire as a shooter. 43% from the field and 55% from the line.
But but but . . . The Mighty Quinn's leadership allowed Green, Abernethy, Laskowski and some other guy with a fro shoot the ball well. It does take shooters to win games . . . and leadership to get them into a position where they can be successful shooting.

I guess you can throw Benson in there too . . . within limits. Maybe a sweeping hook shot and a turnaround jumper in the post . . . .
 

Univee2

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I appreciate the story. But I was hoping to find some anti-PC content. I've developed quite an appreciate for it in these almost Orwellian times. You let me down, dude.
I can understand about the Orwellian times and how one can be burnt out on politics. One can never tell how someone will get their panties in a wad over the most innocuous comment.
 

Sope Creek

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I can understand about the Orwellian times and how one can be burnt out on politics. One can never tell how someone will get their panties in a wad over the most innocuous comment.
I know . . . the new PC imposed by the radical right is sooo draconian . . . .🤨
 
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welshman#

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QB was the two time Illinois Player of the Year on back to back state championship teams. He was a superior athlete, extremely bright, ultra competitive, and a natural leader. He was destined to be a starter the minute he got to Bloomington.
heavily recruited by (among others) UCLA and Kansas IIRC
 

Wiedersehen

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I don't think we have to hire a nationally renown coach with multiple national championships under his belt . . .
No shit? I mean, what the hell does this list even look like? Coach K, Roy Williams, Jay Wright, John Calipari? Chances are literally less than 0 that we could hire one of those. Better chance of hiring John Wooden

BTW, I've stopped watching IU bball.
I don’t believe you.
 
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go_iu

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The problem with hiring some up and comer that isn't proven is that the fan base will eat him alive if he doesnt have success early. You hire a guy like say Pearl who has tons of street cred the fans will have a lot more patience.
Agree, I'd rather pony up and hire someone proven to restore respectability at this point, an up and comer can be bred within that
 

go_iu

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. . . some young guy in his early 30s as HC . . . from Army no less . . . and wanted to know who the heck THIS guy was coming to a proud bball tradition like IU. Then I read how he was a defense-first, no-nonsense guy who'd been on a national championship team with OSU, and had taken undersized players (they had to fit within the military's maximum height and weight limits) and beaten the likes of No. 1 South Carolina . . . so I thought maybe we ought to give this guy a chance . . . .

I don't think we have to hire a nationally renown coach with multiple national championships under his belt . . . I'd rather have someone who fits the brand (defense and complementary team play) and has shown an extraordinary ability to get his team to punch above its weight class. And then I'd have some patience . . . to watch the program develop.

I don't know what's gotten into Archie's head*, but at the moment all indications are that he's clearly in over his head. Without Trayce to anchor this team, I'd hate to consider what might have happened this season.

BTW, I've stopped watching IU bball. This from a guy who's known for throwing things at the TV for someone's lack of hustle when getting back to play defense . . . on IU's women's team. The game is the game . . . you either respect it or it'll expose you.

* I have an idea based on what someone from NC State when he was there told me, but that was in place before he got to Dayton . . . .
I hate to say it and never believed I'd be, but my cousin once told me we'd rue the day we fired MD. I think he was right in hindsight. MD was clean and could recruit and coach better than Crean or AM. Sampson or RMK, he was not, but had our standards had been eroded as they our now, it might have been wise to let him grow into the job more.
 

CriticArisen

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IU does have a top shelf supercomputer. Maybe we could put our heads together and develop an AI to be the next coach. A little bit of John Wooden and a whole lot of RMK and I would be happy. Someone would have to video tape prospects for input in Bloomington but that’s no big problem. Ref’s make a bad call and someone not coach hacks their credit reports etc.
 

CriticArisen

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I hate to say it and never believed I'd be, but my cousin once told me we'd rue the day we fired MD. I think he was right in hindsight. MD was clean and could recruit and coach better than Crean or AM. Sampson or RMK, he was not, but had our standards had been eroded as they our now, it might have been wise to let him grow into the job more.
After the run and the RMK players were gone it was just hard for me to watch his teams play. The teams played with incoherence compared to the RMK teams.
 

Sobchak_Security

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I hate to say it and never believed I'd be, but my cousin once told me we'd rue the day we fired MD. I think he was right in hindsight. MD was clean and could recruit and coach better than Crean or AM. Sampson or RMK, he was not, but had our standards had been eroded as they our now, it might have been wise to let him grow into the job more.
CMD is a great man and a decent coach. He got himself in a pickle with his recruiting. Let us not forget the days of Jessan Grey-Ashley, Daryl Pegram (not B1G level players)and Patrick Ewing Jr (who was forced into action too early due to no depth). He even admits now that he just wasn’t ready for a job like IU at that point in his career.
 

kkott

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I hate to say it and never believed I'd be, but my cousin once told me we'd rue the day we fired MD. I think he was right in hindsight. MD was clean and could recruit and coach better than Crean or AM. Sampson or RMK, he was not, but had our standards had been eroded as they our now, it might have been wise to let him grow into the job more.
Umm, no, the losing has made you delirious, but that's just crazy talk. He's had a few good teams in his career, but at the mid-major level... at best. Nothing currently to show he can win regularly where he is, let alone in the B10 or at IU.
 

Baller23Boogie

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I hate to say it and never believed I'd be, but my cousin once told me we'd rue the day we fired MD. I think he was right in hindsight. MD was clean and could recruit and coach better than Crean or AM. Sampson or RMK, he was not, but had our standards had been eroded as they our now, it might have been wise to let him grow into the job more.
Mike Davis himself said he wasn't ready for the Indiana job. Letting him grow into it isn't something that should have been done.
 

welshman#

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CMD is a great man and a decent coach. He got himself in a pickle with his recruiting. Let us not forget the days of Jessan Grey-Ashley, Daryl Pegram (not B1G level players)and Patrick Ewing Jr (who was forced into action too early due to no depth). He even admits now that he just wasn’t ready for a job like IU at that point in his career.
it didn't help when Davis largely blew off in-state recruiting in exchange for swinging (& mostly missing) at out-of-state "names"

IIRC Harangody (a legacy kid) wanted to come to IU but Davis had little or no interest in him--or in that group of kids like Hummel et al, most of whom ended up at Purdue