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I Have A Dream

In time I agree, but not yet.

So you think life was better for minorities before the Civil rights movement that shined a light on reality and forced government to get involved?

Doing nothing changes nothing.

You were born post civil rights movement and we only have one time-line when looking back at decisions made.

I guarantee you there are no black families that want to go back to the 'good old days' pre 60's.
Welfare and anti discrimination laws are different as you know with different intentions and outcomes
 
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In time I agree, but not yet.

So you think life was better for minorities before the Civil rights movement that shined a light on reality and forced government to get involved?

Doing nothing changes nothing.

You were born post civil rights movement and we only have one time-line when looking back at decisions made.

I guarantee you there are no black families that want to go back to the 'good old days' pre 60's.
Depends on what you measure on. Thomas Sowell likes to tell a story about a blackout in Harlem in the 1960's and how crime actually dropped that night and how people used to sleep on the fire escape when it got hot. He contrasted that to another blackout in the 70's where looting occurred. And that was little more than a decade apart.

So yes, some things definitely improved for non-whites in the U.S. They were finally accorded some of the equal rights that we take for granted now...like eating in the same place, sharing the same fountain or bathroom. Then again, there are several metrics where things trended in a worse direction. The breakdown of the family being chief among them.

I guess it all depends on what weight you would put on which things. Treating people equally is better, but that does not necessarily equate to all aspects of their lives being better now.
 
Culture matters. A lot. Otherwise, please explain the success of the Asian population vis-a-vis the white population. Asian privilege?

I 100% agree, culture does matter.

So does incentive.

When you feel the game is rigged against you, a person loses motivation.

We have a moral right to shine a light on those things (processes, organizations, individuals, beliefs) that are preventing the game from being level.

That's basically what the discussion on 'systemic racism' is about and trying to recognize and rectify.

It's not as bad of a word as many believe. It's not a personal insult in most cases.

It's more an awareness or recognition.

And it's okay to say something isn't. That's part of having a discussion.
 
I 100% agree, culture does matter.

So does incentive.

When you feel the game is rigged against you, a person loses motivation.

We have a moral right to shine a light on those things (processes, organizations, individuals, beliefs) that are preventing the game from being level.

That's basically what the discussion on 'systemic racism' is about and trying to recognize and rectify.

It's not as bad of a word as many believe. It's not a personal insult in most cases.

It's more an awareness or recognition.
What is rigged? Specifically. What’s preventing the game from being level? I know the second richest black man in the world. He would tell you otherwise.

Historic economic discrimination is real. Blacks were very late to the economic party. If we want to provide reparations to atone for same that’s a discussion. But to say generically the system is rigged is suspect
 
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Depends on what you measure on. Thomas Sowell likes to tell a story about a blackout in Harlem in the 1960's and how crime actually dropped that night and how people used to sleep on the fire escape when it got hot. He contrasted that to another blackout in the 70's where looting occurred. And that was little more than a decade apart.

So yes, some things definitely improved for non-whites in the U.S. They were finally accorded some of the equal rights that we take for granted now...like eating in the same place, sharing the same fountain or bathroom. Then again, there are several metrics where things trended in a worse direction. The breakdown of the family being chief among them.

I guess it all depends on what weight you would put on which things. Treating people equally is better, but that does not necessarily equate to all aspects of their lives being better now.

We only have one time line and obviously the goal is to get government out of managing race relations and focus on economic relations.

Where do you think we'd be if the 60's never happened and we just let things continue on?

I believe we'd be closer to the 50's in mindset. We'd have grown up with 'that's just how things are'.

For me the whole thing is like this simplistic and lame analogy.

Say our 1992 team plays Duke 100 times and Duke beats us every, single time. We don't win one damn game.

We also notice that Ted Valentine has cloned himself and is all three refs. Coincidentally Cheaney, Henderson, Bailey and Graham foul out every single game.

Duke then says that they are the superior program.

We're like cmon you have to acknowledge that having three Teddy's is a great advantage.

If we're going to keep playing with Teddy reffing then I'm going to lose interest, get pissed and lash out.
 
What is rigged? Specifically. What’s preventing the game from being level? I know the second richest black man in the world. He would tell you otherwise.

Historic economic discrimination is real. Blacks were very late to the economic party. If we want to provide reparations to atone for same that’s a discussion. But to say generically the system is rigged is suspect

It's in our police enforcement, it's in our voting, it's in our educational system, etc.

Those are probably the three big ones.

Mainly it's in our perceptions.

To the original point....either there is something that is systematically getting these outcomes on the scoreboard or group are simply superior to the other.

The former we can identify and change through legislation.

The second is much, much, much harder to impact.
 
It's in our police enforcement, it's in our voting, it's in our educational system, etc.

Those are probably the three big ones.

Mainly it's in our perceptions.

To the original point....either there is something that is systematically getting these outcomes on the scoreboard or group are simply superior to the other.

The former we can identify and change through legislation.

The second is much, much, much harder to impact.
as to one group being superior. i was in graduate school studying public administration and urban planning the year the bell curve was released. made for interesting discussions
 
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We only have one time line and obviously the goal is to get government out of managing race relations and focus on economic relations.

Where do you think we'd be if the 60's never happened and we just let things continue on?

I believe we'd be closer to the 50's in mindset. We'd have grown up with 'that's just how things are'.

For me the whole thing is like this simplistic and lame analogy.

Say our 1992 team plays Duke 100 times and Duke beats us every, single time. We don't win one damn game.

We also notice that Ted Valentine has cloned himself and is all three refs. Coincidentally Cheaney, Henderson, Bailey and Graham foul out every single game.

Duke then says that they are the superior program.

We're like cmon you have to acknowledge that having three Teddy's is a great advantage.

If we're going to keep playing with Teddy reffing then I'm going to lose interest, get pissed and lash out.
There were multiple things happening in the same timeframe that were not all specifically related to the Civil Rights movement that had an impact though. You could have multiple outcomes depending on which movements actually occurred.

You could have the Civil Rights movement and then not had Women's Lib, the sexual revolution, and an increasing drug culture and you would get one outcome. Conversely, you could have had no Civil Rights movement but still had all of the others and ended with another outcome.

I think if the 60's never happened, that none of the societal upheavals occurred, that civil rights would have slowly been implemented over the past 50+ years and that, with a lack of some of that other stuff, it is possible that the black community could have ended in a better place. That being said, I think if the Civil Rights movement occurred and none of those other things were implemented, I could make the argument that things would be even better.

Studies across all races show that time and time again, the children of single mothers are more likely to live in poverty and grow up to commit crimes. In 1960 the marriage rate in the black community was 61% and in the white community it was 74%. By 2008 the rate in the black community had fallen to 32% and in the white community it fell to 56%. There are obviously other things at play outside of structural racism that are more problematic when seeking good outcomes for all. 2 parent households are shown time and again to be better for children to grow up in. So in a time when racism in this country was blatantly in your face and awful, some of that Leave it to Beaver attitude that we all shared anyway led to better outcomes in some instances IMO.

I know that people are going to read that and not be able to deal with what I actually said, so to be clear, I am not saying that it was better for blacks to be discriminated against. It was not. I am saying that when you look across all the variables, that while that one variable was obviously awful in the past, that many other variables (which are shown to impact quality of life regardless of race) were not nearly as bad. In fact, they were much better.

Everyone can have their opinion on what caused the change, but it is clear that something changed that decade and not all those changes were for the better (IMO).
 
as to one group being superior. i was in graduate school studying public administration and urban planning the year the bell curve was released. made for interesting discussions

As far as it matched what you thought going into it or had you saying 'wtf?' a lot.

Any tidbits you could share? I do like talking about this stuff.
 
There were multiple things happening in the same timeframe that were not all specifically related to the Civil Rights movement that had an impact though. You could have multiple outcomes depending on which movements actually occurred.

You could have the Civil Rights movement and then not had Women's Lib, the sexual revolution, and an increasing drug culture and you would get one outcome. Conversely, you could have had no Civil Rights movement but still had all of the others and ended with another outcome.

I think if the 60's never happened, that none of the societal upheavals occurred, that civil rights would have slowly been implemented over the past 50+ years and that, with a lack of some of that other stuff, it is possible that the black community could have ended in a better place. That being said, I think if the Civil Rights movement occurred and none of those other things were implemented, I could make the argument that things would be even better.

Studies across all races show that time and time again, the children of single mothers are more likely to live in poverty and grow up to commit crimes. In 1960 the marriage rate in the black community was 61% and in the white community it was 74%. By 2008 the rate in the black community had fallen to 32% and in the white community it fell to 56%. There are obviously other things at play outside of structural racism that are more problematic when seeking good outcomes for all. 2 parent households are shown time and again to be better for children to grow up in. So in a time when racism in this country was blatantly in your face and awful, some of that Leave it to Beaver attitude that we all shared anyway led to better outcomes in some instances IMO.

I know that people are going to read that and not be able to deal with what I actually said, so to be clear, I am not saying that it was better for blacks to be discriminated against. It was not. I am saying that when you look across all the variables, that while that one variable was obviously awful in the past, that many other variables (which are shown to impact quality of life regardless of race) were not nearly as bad. In fact, they were much better.

Everyone can have their opinion on what caused the change, but it is clear that something changed that decade and not all those changes were for the better (IMO).

I'll give you that and also acknowledge that having a strong family structure during the most important time of development is critically important and I'm guessing the scoreboard will reflect that.

I personally put a lot of that on the fathers and it circles back to this discussion.

Who has the power and leverage?

In the Cleaver example Ward had the job and made the money, so he had the power and leverage. Mrs. Cleaver was completely dependent on Ward which gave him tremendous leverage.

Which is why, in general I get on the father's ass when it comes to the family breakdowns.

As old Abe Lincoln said, the greatest thing a father can do is love his kids mother.

It's such a powerful point because kids learn from their parents.

If a daughter learns that you just deal with an abusive boyfriend then she will just deal with it.

If a son learns it's okay to leave and chase skirts or whatnot, he's probably going to justify leaving his family and chasing pussy.

If the family doesn't have a history of the benefit of college, then the kids will probably not be motivated by the value of a college education.

So yes, totally agree it starts with the family.
 
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As far as it matched what you thought going into it or had you saying 'wtf?' a lot.

Any tidbits you could share? I do like talking about this stuff.
i don't really remember a lot of it. i do remember that it was an unfortunate book in its motivation. it used iq scores (and i think other tests but don't remember) to "empirically" prove that blacks aren't as smart as whites. they then extrapolated same to argue that these lower scores were a useful indicator as to whether a person was likely to have or not have certain capabilities. it was an endorsement to prejudge people
 
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I'll give you that and also acknowledge that having a strong family structure during the most important time of development is critically important and I'm guessing the scoreboard will reflect that.

I personally put a lot of that on the fathers and it circles back to this discussion.

Who has the power and leverage?

In the Cleaver example Ward had the job and made the money, so he had the power and leverage. Mrs. Cleaver was completely dependent on Ward which gave him tremendous leverage.

Which is why, in general I get on the father's ass when it comes to the family breakdowns.

As old Abe Lincoln said, the greatest thing a father can do is love his kids mother.

It's such a powerful point because kids learn from their parents.

If a daughter learns that you just deal with an abusive boyfriend then she will just deal with it.

If a son learns it's okay to leave and chase skirts or whatnot, he's probably going to justify leaving his family and chasing pussy.

If the family doesn't have a history of the benefit of college, then the kids will probably not be motivated by the value of a college education.

So yes, totally agree it starts with the family.

Agreed on all counts. So my suggestion is that to fix issues in the black community, our biggest focus should be on making black men employable, particularly young black men. Everything else becomes much easier after that.
 
Agreed on all counts. So my suggestion is that to fix issues in the black community, our biggest focus should be on making black men employable, particularly young black men. Everything else becomes much easier after that.
Problem solved. Bunch of old white guys with cushy jobs that allow us to F around on here and fix the problems of black America! That’s what the cooler is all about
 
Problem solved. Bunch of old white guys with cushy jobs that allow us to F around on here and fix the problems of black America! That’s what the cooler is all about
Nah, it is not that easy. Knowing that your engine is blown and needs fixed is not the same thing as fixing it.

By the same token, realizing that the engine is broke and won't drive is more important then dealing with the dented fender.

My honest opinion is that we can do whatever we want and it won't matter until and unless the people being discussed actually care to address the issue. But we live in a society where some people feel that they have to do something...given that idea, I'd prefer it was spent on something more productive than complaining about how racist George Washington was.
 
Of course there is data and proof. If you don’t accept it as persuasive, I really don’t care.
Let's see it.

56wcmm.jpg
 
I apologize. Here I thought you were unemployable. Glad you’ve landed such a great job in this Biden economy.
As bad as things are, do you really think things are worse than Jefferson/Adams? Their followers and media waged a blood feud that I believe still easily exceeds us today

1850s got pretty bad too.
 
In time I agree, but not yet.

So you think life was better for minorities before the Civil rights movement that shined a light on reality and forced government to get involved?

Doing nothing changes nothing.

You were born post civil rights movement and we only have one time-line when looking back at decisions made.

I guarantee you there are no black families that want to go back to the 'good old days' pre 60's.
Yeah, because 'black families' are practically non-existant since the government took over as Big Daddy.
 
If he only has 1 it's 1 more than you have.

Oh smart comeback. Going to pass kindergarten this year?

That might be too optimistic for you.

My response to rockport was spot on. It is just like a conservative to misrepresent the other side. Only way to attempt to make their viewpoint seem legit.
 
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