I Have A Dream

HooDatGuy

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Yep. That’s the issue. Whole country ignores King - OK. I don’t quote him - BIG trouble at the Cooler.
Democrats criticize conservatives for cherry picking their favorite MLK quotes and ignoring others that might make them uncomfortable.

I can grant that criticism, there are definitely MLK quotes that I don't necessarily agree with.

Having said that......... Wasn't his central thesis to see people as individuals and put aside each others immutable characteristics?

Board lefties, let me know if I'm making a mischaracterization.
 

HooDatGuy

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That was the goal, not the tactic.
The tactic is shaming cops as racists' because they shot a black person who was about to stab another black person to death.

In all seriousness, what tactics can we use to see people as individuals?

I suggest acknowledging them as an individual outside of whatever socially constructed group they may or may not belong to.
 

mashnut

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MLK had a dream. He was not so naïve to believe that dreaming was the way to achieve that state.

MLK's Letter from a Birmingham Jail said:
I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

In your statement you assert that our actions, even though peaceful, must be condemned because they precipitate violence. But is this a logical assertion? Isn't this like condemning a robbed man because his possession of money precipitated the evil act of robbery? Isn't this like condemning Socrates because his unswerving commitment to truth and his philosophical inquiries precipitated the act by the misguided populace in which they made him drink hemlock? Isn't this like condemning Jesus because his unique God consciousness and never ceasing devotion to God's will precipitated the evil act of crucifixion? We must come to see that, as the federal courts have consistently affirmed, it is wrong to urge an individual to cease his efforts to gain his basic constitutional rights because the quest may precipitate violence. Society must protect the robbed and punish the robber. I had also hoped that the white moderate would reject the myth concerning time in relation to the struggle for freedom. I have just received a letter from a white brother in Texas. He writes: "All Christians know that the colored people will receive equal rights eventually, but it is possible that you are in too great a religious hurry. It has taken Christianity almost two thousand years to accomplish what it has. The teachings of Christ take time to come to earth." Such an attitude stems from a tragic misconception of time, from the strangely irrational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time itself is neutral; it can be used either destructively or constructively. More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will. We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people. Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be co workers with God, and without this hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation. We must use time creatively, in the knowledge that the time is always ripe to do right. Now is the time to make real the promise of democracy and transform our pending national elegy into a creative psalm of brotherhood. Now is the time to lift our national policy from the quicksand of racial injustice to the solid rock of human dignity.
 

MyTeamIsOnTheFloor

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The tactic is shaming cops as racists' because they shot a black person who was about to stab another black person to death.

In all seriousness, what tactics can we use to see people as individuals?

I suggest acknowledging them as an individual outside of whatever socially constructed group they may or may not belong to.
MLK had a dream. He was not so naïve to believe that dreaming was the way to achieve that state.
You will note he lamented the violence of the whites who opposed his “non-violent direct action”. He did not accept engaging in violence - even when noting that a riot is the voice of the unheard.
 
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bawlmer

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I think unrest for the sake of political gain is more overrated.
It can be. On the other hand, political gain that involves a power shift from the majority to the minority rarely occurs without some form of unrest.
 

TommyCracker

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What if some people truly believe that and this whole silly 'systemic racism' thing doesn't exist as the police are neutral, education is available to everyone and if you don't make it its because of a lack of self accountability and grit.

It's not racist. The reason why whites are more successful is simply because they are better, smarter and have a stronger work ethic.

It's gotta be one or the other.

Simply put if a person truly believes that we've reached a point in our society where everyone has the same opportunities and 'systemic racism' is just a political fairy dust used by the libs to make a scene then that would mean by looking at the scoreboard that whites and white culture is simply better.

So is it racism or white supremacy?
 
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HooDatGuy

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What if some people truly believe that and this whole silly 'systemic racism' thing doesn't exist as the police are neutral, education is available to everyone and if you don't make it its because of a lack of self accountability and grit.

It's not racist. The reason why whites are more successful is simply because they are better, smarter and have a stronger work ethic.

It's gotta be one or the other.

Simply put if a person truly believes that we've reached a point in our society where everyone has the same opportunities and 'systemic racism' is just a political fairy dust used by the libs to make a scene then that would mean by looking at the scoreboard that whites and white culture is simply better.

So is it racism or white supremacy?

Systemic racism in the form of Welfare programs that blew up the nuclear black family does exist and needs to be done away with.
 

CO. Hoosier

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Yet slavery continued another 90 years. I don't think MLK would have found your response satisfactory.
Slavery ended in many states in the 18th century. The slave debate never ended until we fought a war about it. Nobody really knows what MLK would have thought of what the race discussion has become. it‘s pretty obvious to me that based on the I Have A Dream speech, MLK would strongly disagree with the whole idea that race determines destiny and all white people are racist. But as a whole all of us were a lot more congenial than we are today.
 
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MyTeamIsOnTheFloor

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Yet slavery continued another 90 years. I don't think MLK would have found your response satisfactory.

You posited that the shift of power from majority to minority required unrest.

I noted the Bill of Rights as an example otherwise. (Perhaps the greatest example in all history.) I didn’t even ask why a “shift in power from majority to minority” was proper in a democracy. Another day perhaps.

You changed and broadened the position to ASSUME I meant it as the sole cure of slavery. The assumption was wrong and then - as usual - produced argument against something that was not said or meant.

At the federal level, MLK also sought and obtained the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 as additional cures to discrimination, injustice and lingering effects of slavery. On top of local changes. Through non-violence. And without lumping all white people in with the Klan. He sought to end racial division. These days, the left seeks to increase it and use it to obtain power. They don’t care about the system of government we have or using the Bill of Rights to guarantee rights to ALL. They demand that they get what they want or they will burn it all down through violence. They are ignorant to the point of being dangerous. It’s the same old anti-American “eat the rich” envy bullshit disguised as a demand for “justice” - a “justice” outside equality of law, where they and their insiders are better than all and decide for all.
 

Marvin the Martian

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The way people use that quote it sounds like they believe that MLK was saying we had reached that point and there was no longer any need to strive for racial equality. Of course, we all know, including CO and MTIOTF, we ain't there. So I am not sure where the disconnect is. Obviously, if we are not at the state MLK dreamed of, then we should continue the struggle to get there. It would be wrong just to pretend we are there short of that moment. Pretending color does not exist only makes reporting racism harder, how can there be racism if race doesn't exist?
 

IUCrazy2

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What if some people truly believe that and this whole silly 'systemic racism' thing doesn't exist as the police are neutral, education is available to everyone and if you don't make it its because of a lack of self accountability and grit.

It's not racist. The reason why whites are more successful is simply because they are better, smarter and have a stronger work ethic.

It's gotta be one or the other.

Simply put if a person truly believes that we've reached a point in our society where everyone has the same opportunities and 'systemic racism' is just a political fairy dust used by the libs to make a scene then that would mean by looking at the scoreboard that whites and white culture is simply better.

So is it racism or white supremacy?

Or...hear me out...there are factors at play that exist outside the color of one's skin. I think there are universal truths that lead to success and if you as an individual have your priorities set to those truths, then you are likely to be successful.

That is not to say that you will not face obstacles and that some of those obstacles may at times be based on some people's perception of how you look but everyone has a chance. We need to stop selling people on the idea that they are screwed from the day they are born because of things they cannot impact.

Full stop telling people that many of the things on this list is "white culture" is stupid. Many of those things are points for "how to be successful in the developed world".
 
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Marvin the Martian

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Or...hear me out...there are factors at play that exist outside the color of one's skin. I think there are universal truths that lead to success and if you as an individual have your priorities set to those truths, then you are likely to be successful.

That is not to say that you will not face obstacles and that some of those obstacles may at times be based on some people's perception of how you look but everyone has a chance. We need to stop selling people on the idea that they are screwed from the day they are born because of things they cannot impact.

Full stop telling people that many of the things on this list is "white culture" is stupid. Many of those things are points for "how to be successful in the developed world".

I have looked over that graphic on what is White culture. But nowhere on that graphic do I see a value judgment as to those things being bad or "stupid".
 

Bulk VanderHuge

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Yesterday, the day before, and the day before that etc,
How do you measure whether we were more congenial yesterday than today, and more congenial the day before yesterday than we were yesterday? Is there data to back this up?

And who is "we"?

Would I be correct in inferring that you are saying the further we go back in time, the more congenial "we" were? If so, does this apply to the last week? Month? Year? Decade? Century?

You have made a fascinating statement, and I wish to learn more of your theory.
 

mcmurtry66

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How do you measure whether we were more congenial yesterday than today, and more congenial the day before yesterday than we were yesterday? Is there data to back this up?

And who is "we"?

Would I be correct in inferring that you are saying the further we go back in time, the more congenial "we" were? If so, does this apply to the last week? Month? Year? Decade? Century?

You have made a fascinating statement, and I wish to learn more of your theory.
Yes!!!! You just signed up for an M.A. in Public Policy from COH U
 

IUCrazy2

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I have looked over that graphic on what is White culture. But nowhere on that graphic do I see a value judgment as to those things being bad or "stupid".

The flier said they are "white culture". Forget the fact that the premise is complete horse shit on its face, for a black person (particularly a young black person) receiving that while at the same time receiving a message about how white supremacy is everywhere in the US and holds them down, what type of message do you think they are receiving? Hard work is white. Getting married is white. Having a family is white. Fathers providing for their families is white. Science and the scientific method are white. Promptness is white. That is a culture forced on you because of white supremacy. It should be rejected. You and I both know the climate in which that was developed.

Crazedhoosier mentioned the conversation that needs to be had in this country around race. I agree. One of the first things I would tell black kids is to drown out all these anchors who keep telling you that you cannot amount to anything because someone is always going to be there to hold you back. Instead they should get a message that there are obstacles for everyone and that each person has the ability to overcome those obstacles. Everybody in this country is part of some grievance group. We are all sliced and diced down to groups who have someone to blame for their lot in life. It's a stupid narrative and a fast track to failure.
 

CO. Hoosier

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I have looked over that graphic on what is White culture. But nowhere on that graphic do I see a value judgment as to those things being bad or "stupid".
You missed the point. The stupidity lies in describing those things as “white culture“ not that those things are inherently stupid. They are all earmarks of the kind of culture MLK sought for all people. Now these things are degraded for being white supremacy, privilege, or what have you. The Democrats apply this brand of racism every day as they suggest blacks can’t get an identification because—well, they don’t know how to.
 

CO. Hoosier

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How do you measure whether we were more congenial yesterday than today, and more congenial the day before yesterday than we were yesterday? Is there data to back this up?

And who is "we"?

Would I be correct in inferring that you are saying the further we go back in time, the more congenial "we" were? If so, does this apply to the last week? Month? Year? Decade? Century?

You have made a fascinating statement, and I wish to learn more of your theory.
Fair question. The evidence is all through observing much individual and institutional behavior. One small piece. I’m old enough to remember when people of good faith voiced strong objections to using firehoses and dogs on peaceful marchers carrying American Flags. Now we have elected officials encouraging violent protesters who carry bricks and Molotov cocktails.

We also have POTUS lying about Jim Crow on Steroids when talking about a sovereign state government, harassing public servants at their homes, disciplining or worse of students and faculty for saying the wrong thing, the list goes on.
 
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IU_Hickory

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Fair question. The evidence is all through observing much individual and institutional behavior. One small piece. I’m old enough to remember when people of good faith voiced strong objections to using firehoses and dogs on peaceful marchers carrying American Flags. Now we have elected officials encouraging violent protesters who carry bricks and Molotov cocktails.

We also have POTUS lying about Jim Crow on Steroids when talking about a sovereign state government, harassing public servants at their homes, disciplining or worse of students and faculty for saying the wrong thing, the list goes on.

Referring to the Gop? Because we know those idiots on the right would never threaten politicians.

 

mushroomgod_1

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What if some people truly believe that and this whole silly 'systemic racism' thing doesn't exist as the police are neutral, education is available to everyone and if you don't make it its because of a lack of self accountability and grit.

It's not racist. The reason why whites are more successful is simply because they are better, smarter and have a stronger work ethic.

It's gotta be one or the other.

Simply put if a person truly believes that we've reached a point in our society where everyone has the same opportunities and 'systemic racism' is just a political fairy dust used by the libs to make a scene then that would mean by looking at the scoreboard that whites and white culture is simply better.

So is it racism or white supremacy?

Culture matters. A lot. Otherwise, please explain the success of the Asian population vis-a-vis the white population. Asian privilege?
 
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Bulk VanderHuge

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Fair question. The evidence is all through observing much individual and institutional behavior. One small piece. I’m old enough to remember when people of good faith voiced strong objections to using firehoses and dogs on peaceful marchers carrying American Flags. Now we have elected officials encouraging violent protesters who carry bricks and Molotov cocktails.

We also have POTUS lying about Jim Crow on Steroids when talking about a sovereign state government, harassing public servants at their homes, disciplining or worse of students and faculty for saying the wrong thing, the list goes on.
So, once again, no real data, proof, evidence, etc on the decreasing level of congeniality in this country.
As expected.
 
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hoot1

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Watched a documentary about Robert Kennedy recently on Netflix.

Back in the early 1960s my political heroes were northern Republican liberals such as Nelson Rockefeller, Chuck Percy, and John Lindsay. Southern Democrats such as LBJ and George Wallace were on my least supported list. I felt this way mainly due to my strong opinions about civil rights for black minorities. MLK and the Kennedy brothers were on my lukewarm list. I had voted for Nixon in 1960 over Kennedy but wasn't excited about either of them.

Now fast forward to watching the Robert Kennedy series recently. Although the series was about Bobby Kennedy, the person who most impressed me was Martin Luther King.

Upon realizing that MLK had gone from my lukewarm list to being my most admired, i asked myself how this change occurred and why. Upon reflection, I concluded that back in the 60s the MLK preacher style of speaking turned me off. So I wanted civil rights for black minorities, but wanted white northern Republicans to make it happen.

All this proves one thing for me, attitudes about politics, and the way people look and speak can blind a person to what is really important.
 
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TommyCracker

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Systemic racism in the form of Welfare programs that blew up the nuclear black family does exist and needs to be done away with.

In time I agree, but not yet.

So you think life was better for minorities before the Civil rights movement that shined a light on reality and forced government to get involved?

Doing nothing changes nothing.

You were born post civil rights movement and we only have one time-line when looking back at decisions made.

I guarantee you there are no black families that want to go back to the 'good old days' pre 60's.