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I didn't think high rated kids stayed in state?

What facts am I ignoring? I pasted directly the top 10 from 2008 to 2009. Tom Crean, #8.

If we recap, over the last two weeks you've said the following.

  • Brady Hoke did better than Tom Crean. Amazing
  • John Beilein was actually spelled John Beileim. You did this three times and claimed it was a typo. A triple typo?
  • You claimed Crean was not a top 10 paid coach until after he was hired. Wrong.
  • You have made crazy comments about hidden gems and recruiting under the radar
  • You don't understand how to use denominators and continue to over count what the denominator should be
  • You claimed no one was concerned about VO's & Remy's recruitment, until Pater set you straight on that dubious claim
  • You claimed everyone was in love with TC at that start. Another wrong claim

I could go on, buy my fingers are tired from typing. Exactly what facts am I and everyone else on this board ignoring? Furthermore, when you start coming with facts and not opinions or quips disguised as facts, let us all know.
I actually claimed was not a top 10 paid coach in his first contract. That's has been proven correct. You sources an article from 2006 - 2 years before TC was hired. I've been correctly you daily now for quite some time. All while you continue claiming to be someone you're not.
 
It's quite true in my case and I'm sure many others, that I've followed the program as closely as watching television and listening to radio broadcasts allow. I'm aware that those things only offer the tip of the iceberg relative to the totality of everything involved in running a big time program. I'm more than happy to learn from you and others who have a keener interest in those things or might have been closer to the program. At times, it can be quite interesting.

The issue, as I see it anyway, is that, rather than being informative, most threads of that nature turn into one poster telling another poster that they obviously don't know what they are talking about. Here and there trickles of interesting information seep out to us less informed readers, but you have to wade through a bunch of marked up rulers and yardsticks to get to it.

Every poster has their own reason for coming here and one's view of what is entertaining doesn't have to be the same as every other. If you guys are greatly entertained by debating who knows more about the history of the program, then you should have at it. Imagine how much better the board would be for the average reader though, if you two were friends who came on here to swap stories about the old days.
I've taken a combative stance towards anti-Crean folks because they hijack/troll every thread about everything regardless of how mundane. If there were a post about what our frontcourt is going to be like next year or a post about what our backcourt is going to be like next year, it will devolve into "Crean can't recruit" even though he landed Zeller, Ferrell, Vonleh, Blackmon, and Bryant - all All-Americans - in consecutive years. That has not happened in a very long time here at IU; or :Crean can't coach" even though he's been better in the Big ten in recent memory than any coach in over 20 years. Also, when someone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about, it pisses me off because I have been watching the program for a long time, and I do know what I'm talking about. The strategy is "louder is better," and I'm not having it. So when you come at me for suggesting that maybe Crean is not the worst thing that has ever happened to Indiana Basketball, be prepared to actually defend what you are talking about.
Edit: Pater you have not come at me about anything and I was talking about other members of this board. I appreciate your contributions to the board
 
I actually claimed was not a top 10 paid coach in his first contract. That's has been proven correct. You sources an article from 2006 - 2 years before TC was hired. I've been correctly you daily now for quite some time. All while you continue claiming to be someone you're not.

How has that been proven correct when I gave you the direct link that showed he was #8 in his first year. How is #8 paid coach, NOT in the top 10? My source was 2008-09. Here, I'll give to you AGAIN.

medium_422salary.jpg
 
With this non conference schedule 27 wins should not be a measuring stick......
OK. For the sake of argument, let's say that Crean scheduled 3 of the cupcake games a year against teams ranked150-250 instead of teams ranked 300+. Let's, for the sake of argument, assume we somehow lost all three of those games. That would give a win total of 24. From '93-'94 to '10-'11, IU won 24 games twice. If you subtract 3 wins from teams in the past 5 years, we've won 24 games 3 times. Anything else you want to say?
 
I actually claimed was not a top 10 paid coach in his first contract. That's has been proven correct. You sources an article from 2006 - 2 years before TC was hired. I've been correctly you daily now for quite some time. All while you continue claiming to be someone you're not.
It's good that you've "been correctly you daily." ugggghhhh. It's called proof-reading. it's not hard. You're lazy about your facts, and you're lazy about your posts.
 
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Why then all the begging for someone...anyone to respect you? This is clearly your MO.

Not sure why the rather substantial inferiority complex, but your act here just can't be providing the help you need.
I've never begged anyone for respect. Only you and Scott and a few other settlers are the only ones who helplessly follow me around in tears. Please go away.
 
OK. For the sake of argument, let's say that Crean scheduled 3 of the cupcake games a year against teams ranked150-250 instead of teams ranked 300+. Let's, for the sake of argument, assume we somehow lost all three of those games. That would give a win total of 24. From '93-'94 to '10-'11, IU won 24 games twice. If you subtract 3 wins from teams in the past 5 years, we've won 24 games 3 times. Anything else you want to say?
How many 24 win seasons between 1971 to 1994 ??? When IU was a blue blood but I guess you want to compare our current state to a poor period for IU basketball. I do understand- the TC's "It's Indiana" was just BS we are nothing special anymore......
 
How many 24 win seasons between 1971 to 1994 ??? When IU was a blue blood but I guess you want to compare our current state to a poor period for IU basketball. I do understand- the TC's "It's Indiana" was just BS we are nothing special anymore......
I love the history of IU basketall, but c'mon. How many years was the Spanish Armada the greatest navy in the world? How many years was the telegraph the best means of communication? Who cares? It's ancient history. None of the players on the roster were even born in 1993, the last year that IU was any good before Crean got here (with the exception of '01-02). If you're saying Tom Crean is the downfall of the program, you're delusional.
 
I love the history of IU basketall, but c'mon. How many years was the Spanish Armada the greatest navy in the world? How many years was the telegraph the best means of communication? Who cares? It's ancient history. None of the players on the roster were even born in 1993, the last year that IU was any good before Crean got here (with the exception of '01-02). If you're saying Tom Crean is the downfall of the program, you're delusional.

You need to be more precise. There were a lot of teams during those years that were good, but hardly any that were elite, championship caliber teams.
 
I love the history of IU basketall, but c'mon. How many years was the Spanish Armada the greatest navy in the world? How many years was the telegraph the best means of communication? Who cares? It's ancient history. None of the players on the roster were even born in 1993, the last year that IU was any good before Crean got here (with the exception of '01-02). If you're saying Tom Crean is the downfall of the program, you're delusional.
Nope just saying he is not going to return IU where it should be Again I believe the Alabama Football example is similar Bryant retires a number of coaches follow some with similar success to what TC has had but they refused to accept being "good" as their goal finally found NS and returned to greatness. I guess you are fine with IU in it's current position I am not sweet 16's do not excite me....................................
 
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Nope just saying he is not going to return IU where it should be Again I believe the Alabama Football example is similar Bryant retires a number of coaches follow some with similar success to what TC has had but they refused to accept being "good" as their goal finally found NS and returned to greatness. I guess you are fine with IU in it's current position I am not sweet 16's do not excite me....................................
Fair enough
 
You need to be more precise. There were a lot of teams during those years that were good, but hardly any that were elite, championship caliber teams.
There were a lot of 20-22 win, first-round or second-round of the tourney caliber teams. Apparently that's unacceptable to everyone, at least if Tom Crean is coach. Honestly, I actually enjoyed many moments from many of those seasons. Kirk Haston's buzzer-beater at MSU, Guyton's buzzer-beater against Temple, getting revenge against Maryland the year after the championship game, lot's of Eric Gordon moments (before that team un-raveled), those are all great memories. But if the point is how terrible Crean is, it has to be pointed out that he as achieved greater success on the court in recent memory than we've enjoyed for a long time. Regular sweet 16's are an improvement over what has happened the last couple of decades.
 
Regular sweet 16's are an improvement over what has happened the last couple of decades.

If I may interject here - results overall under Crean have been better. I won't argue that.

But with what resources are available to him, Crean is not going to be the guy who gets us back to elite status again. He's a good coach, but not the guy who is gonna make you consistently good.
 
I've never begged anyone for respect. Only you and Scott and a few other settlers are the only ones who helplessly follow me around in tears. Please go away.

Of course you do. You do so in most posts.

You have already been dismissed and yet you stick around. Banned everywhere else?
 
If I may interject here - results overall under Crean have been better. I won't argue that.

But with what resources are available to him, Crean is not going to be the guy who gets us back to elite status again. He's a good coach, but not the guy who is gonna make you consistently good.

This is my take as well with the addition that he is socially awkward. Good person...good family...odd dude.
 
Nope just saying he is not going to return IU where it should be Again I believe the Alabama Football example is similar Bryant retires a number of coaches follow some with similar success to what TC has had but they refused to accept being "good" as their goal finally found NS and returned to greatness. I guess you are fine with IU in it's current position I am not sweet 16's do not excite me....................................

I have used the Alabama analogy a number of times. We need a Saben with greater academic focus.
 
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Read your own statement and answer it yourself? First of all, anyone that would give anyone NO credit after 9 years and what has been accomplished is a delusional person. Dealing with delusional people isn't fun, because they are impossible to deal with. Just put them on ignore.

Look, I don't care if you believe me. I'm not begging you to believe me like others are begging. Put me on ignore, don't believe me, whatever. Fine by me. Now, if you call me a liar, that's a different story. Back it up.

Finally, I've seen the highest highs and the lowest lows at IU and other schools. IU is stable now, for the first time in a long long time. We have made tremendous progress, I'm excited about the future. If that's defending, well then I'm happy to be the defense minister. I'm not stuck in another century, I understand the world changed, values changed, what kids want to do changed. I understand the bad spot we were put in, and finally we have progress that we are out of it and stable. Some of you choose to be bitter about a bygone era, I refuse to. I think we can continue to climb the mountain. The rest of you enjoy living in misery and throwing back stories of the good old days from decades past.

Look, I'm not calling you out as to your athletic administrative background. I simply don't care. What does raise an eyebrow with me is that you've been so staunch in your support of Crean that it's difficult to ignore that obvious bias. And again, you're on the opposite end of the Crean spectrum; you rail against those who are anti-Crean. You argue "Crean does no wrong" with the same vigor as those who believe "Crean does no right." How can that foster an honest, frank discussion of Crean's faults and merits? And, if we polled 50 former college athletic administrators, do you believe that they'd all be in agreement with regard to the job Crean has done? I'd find that difficult to believe.

I've no desire to put you on ignore. Though I often don't agree with your position, your posts are interesting and worthy of the time spent reading them. This forum would be worthless if everyone were to always be in agreement.

Beat Army!
 
Look, I'm not calling you out as to your athletic administrative background. I simply don't care. What does raise an eyebrow with me is that you've been so staunch in your support of Crean that it's difficult to ignore that obvious bias. And again, you're on the opposite end of the Crean spectrum; you rail against those who are anti-Crean. You argue "Crean does no wrong" with the same vigor as those who believe "Crean does no right." How can that foster an honest, frank discussion of Crean's faults and merits? And, if we polled 50 former college athletic administrators, do you believe that they'd all be in agreement with regard to the job Crean has done? I'd find that difficult to believe.

I've no desire to put you on ignore. Though I often don't agree with your position, your posts are interesting and worthy of the time spent reading them. This forum would be worthless if everyone were to always be in agreement.

Beat Army!
The guy is not a former college athletics administrator. I can promise you that. I'd be very surprised if the kid has moved out of his parents house to be honest.
 
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Bear Bryant won a National Championship just 3 years before he retired. The decline of IU started well before Bob Knight left.
You're using a 20 year old excuse as a way to apologize for TC's ineptitude. That dead horse has been beaten plenty. You can't use that crutch forever.
 
Not relevant to my point, but ok.
But his last 3 years were starting the fade and the coaches who followed him had TC like success it took another elite coach like NS to return Bama to elite status. If you are fine with IU being a good program and top 25 TC is your man if you want IU to return to a top 5 program you need to start searching now......................................
 
But his last 3 years were starting the fade and the coaches who followed him had TC like success it took another elite coach like NS to return Bama to elite status. If you are fine with IU being a good program and top 25 TC is your man if you want IU to return to a top 5 program you need to start searching now......................................

Yup
 
The guy is not a former college athletics administrator. I can promise you that. I'd be very surprised if the kid has moved out of his parents house to be honest.

My father is dead. My mother lives in a nursing home. You can promise all you want, but you have been wrong so many times in the last 2 weeks alone, why would anyone take this promise to the bank? Especially when you are dead wrong on it?
 
But his last 3 years were starting the fade and the coaches who followed him had TC like success it took another elite coach like NS to return Bama to elite status. If you are fine with IU being a good program and top 25 TC is your man if you want IU to return to a top 5 program you need to start searching now......................................

So, let's hire NS???
 
But his last 3 years were starting the fade and the coaches who followed him had TC like success it took another elite coach like NS to return Bama to elite status. If you are fine with IU being a good program and top 25 TC is your man if you want IU to return to a top 5 program you need to start searching now......................................

Nice opinion :rolleyes:
 
So, let's hire NS???
No but let's search until we find someone similar it took Bama quite a while but they didn't rejoice over "minor" bowl victories like we celebrate sweet 16's and extend contracts for long periods.................................
 
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No but let's search until we find someone similar it took Bama quite a while but they didn't rejoice over "minor" bowl victories like we celebrate sweet 16's and extend contracts for long periods.................................
I've asked this of others before -- so, how does one go about hiring an "elite" coach unless it's a coach who already is known to be "elite"? Almost sounds like you're suggesting we hire and fire coaches repeatedly as a trial and error tactic until we strike gold.
 
I've asked this of others before -- so, how does one go about hiring an "elite" coach unless it's a coach who already is known to be "elite"? Almost sounds like you're suggesting we hire and fire coaches repeatedly as a trial and error tactic until we strike gold.
People aren't suggesting that, though I can understand how you'd see it that way (assuming you're relatively new to the sport). Saban-like hires are rare, as coaches at the very highest levels are seldom able to be lured away to other jobs. His availability to Alabama wasn't forseen, just as Steve Spurrier's availability to South Carolina wasn't.

Most hires are made by AD's (typically in close consultation with experts from the coaching community) who have both an almost innate sense of the qualities that make a coach great (primarily leadership, supreme organization, a clear vision of what they want to accomplish and how they'll do it, along with an excellent track record of winning in their sport). It's some parts results and some parts faith.

It's what makes the Crean hire so confounding, though it's well known that IU had some leadership issues of their own that impacted sports and administrative hires for a number of years.
 
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People aren't suggesting that, though I can understand how you'd see it that way (assuming you're relatively new to the sport). Saban-like hires are rare, as coaches at the very highest levels are seldom able to be lured away to other jobs. His availability to Alabama wasn't forseen, just as Steve Spurrier's availability to South Carolina wasn't.

Most hires are made by AD's (typically in close consultation with experts from the coaching community) who have both an almost innate sense of the qualities that make a coach great (primarily leadership, supreme organization, a clear vision of what they want to accomplish and how they'll do it, along with an excellent track record of winning in their sport). It's some parts results and some parts faith.

It's what makes the Crean hire so confounding, though it's well known that IU had some leadership issues of their own that impacted sports and administrative hires for a number of years.
Well, since you want to answer my question to Biggio, please read his Post 382 above and finish the rest of his answer. Post 382 says they didn't hire Saban until several other coaches had been tried. I doubt that all you have to do to find an "elite" coach is to hire an expert. So how do you find an "elite" coach without trial and error? Apparently, Alabama didn't find Saban without trial and error.
 
Well, since you want to answer my question to Biggio, please read his Post 382 above and finish the rest of his answer. Post 382 says they didn't hire Saban until several other coaches had been tried. I doubt that all you have to do to find an "elite" coach is to hire an expert. So how do you find an "elite" coach without trial and error? Apparently, Alabama didn't find Saban without trial and error.
You said you'd put this question out to others, so I assumed it was fair game.

If "by trial and error" you mean did they hire guys who didn't pan out, the answer is "yes". There are no absolutes or full proof hires where failure never occurs. Sometimes, you think you're getting the right guy and it doesn't work out. Only the hopelessly naive would wonder why. Not sure why that's so hard for you to understand, though you did say you were new to the sport.
 
You said you'd put this question out to others, so I assumed it was fair game.

If "by trial and error" you mean did they hire guys who didn't pan out, the answer is "yes". There are no absolutes or full proof hires where failure never occurs. Sometimes, you think you're getting the right guy and it doesn't work out. Only the hopelessly naive would wonder why. Not sure why that's so hard for you to understand, though you did say you were new to the sport.
I agree with your statement. You have to be willing to try new things or people and see if they are the right fit. I do feel like TC is still moving things in the right direction. He had a year where things got away from him by recruiting talent over character. He seems to have turned that around again as well as not pushing the players so hard the past year during the season. My concern is that our society has become "instant". We want success instantly or we change something, we want bliss instantly in our marriage or we get a divorce, we don't like something at our job so instead of trying to make it better we quit. The "great" Americans in history were those that failed over and over but never gave up. I don't feel like TC has given up.
 
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No but let's search until we find someone similar it took Bama quite a while but they didn't rejoice over "minor" bowl victories like we celebrate sweet 16's and extend contracts for long periods.................................

Why do you keep comparing Alabama football to IU basketball? Alabama was always near the absolute top of football. IU basketball was not. We had two great decades, another very good decade, but were not a perennial power for 60 years. We were in that next tier of programs. Very good, but never an Alabama level equivalency. Bama won national championships in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 60's, 70's, 90's, 10's. It's rare in a decade they don't win a national title. The comparison is absurd.

Alabama also has no academic standards and doesn't shy way from skirting rules constantly.
 
Why do you keep comparing Alabama football to IU basketball? Alabama was always near the absolute top of football. IU basketball was not. We had two great decades, another very good decade, but were not a perennial power for 60 years. We were in that next tier of programs. Very good, but never an Alabama level equivalency. Bama won national championships in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 60's, 70's, 90's, 10's. It's rare in a decade they don't win a national title. The comparison is absurd.

Alabama also has no academic standards and doesn't shy way from skirting rules constantly.
Not true check Alabama's record under Mike Debose and their record under Mike Shula was similar to what IU has accomplished from TC the last few years. They even had one golden year in the 1990's under Gene Stallings that could be compared to the one run Mike Davis made.
 
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If I may interject here - results overall under Crean have been better. I won't argue that.

But with what resources are available to him, Crean is not going to be the guy who gets us back to elite status again. He's a good coach, but not the guy who is gonna make you consistently good.
This is of course your opinion, and I would argue that the best chance of IU getting back to the level you desire is with positive backing and support. I would also tell you that if I were looking for a new job, I would look for a place the there is strong support. No one wants to go some place that people are going to pick you apart. It's like marrying a woman who does nothing but complain and looks for you to mess up instead of supporting you through the good and the bad.
 
You said you'd put this question out to others, so I assumed it was fair game.

If "by trial and error" you mean did they hire guys who didn't pan out, the answer is "yes". There are no absolutes or full proof hires where failure never occurs. Sometimes, you think you're getting the right guy and it doesn't work out. Only the hopelessly naive would wonder why. Not sure why that's so hard for you to understand, though you did say you were new to the sport.
I don't mind your responding but I do mind your fabrication: "you did say you were new to the sport." I never said that. I am afraid that one is just your breath blowing back in your face.
 
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I don't mind your responding but I do mind your fabrication: "you did say you were new to the sport." I never said that. I am afraid that one is just your breath blowing back in your face.
Maybe I have you confused with someone else. You seemed to not have a feel for how hires work, which is perhaps why I confused you with someone else.
 
This is of course your opinion, and I would argue that the best chance of IU getting back to the level you desire is with positive backing and support.

IU's best chance of winning consistently is having a coach who runs a system that will produce consistent results. Crean has never done that, and unless he changes his style it ain't happening.
 
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