ADVERTISEMENT

How good is Freddie McSwain Jr. ?

If anyone dismisses Tom Crean's third year at Indiana, they clearly have an agenda. There is absolutely no excuse for the performance of the program in that year. None.

The roster of that team was far too talented to finish last in the Big Ten. That falls solely at the feet of Tom Crean. To push the narrative that he should be excused for how that team fared is complete BS. Three years at Indiana and a last place finish, no matter where he started, is inexcusable.

Lmao This team had too much talent to finish last? Was it the talented freshman Victor? It must have been the talented sophomore Hulls and Watford? Lmao Or it must been the all-American Verdell Jones! The injured Maurice Creek must be talent that you are talking about? Maybe it was The Beast Tom Pritchard! So much talent on that team! Lmao

I agree that we had some talent on that team, but the talent was a couple years out from that point.
 
Lmao This team had too much talent to finish last? Was it the talented freshman Victor? It must have been the talented sophomore Hulls and Watford? Lmao Or it must been the all-American Verdell Jones! The injured Maurice Creek must be talent that you are talking about? Maybe it was The Beast Tom Pritchard! So much talent on that team! Lmao

I agree that we had some talent on that team, but the talent was a couple years out from that point.
There was more than enough talent to not finish last.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shirtsandskins
Lmao This team had too much talent to finish last? Was it the talented freshman Victor? It must have been the talented sophomore Hulls and Watford? Lmao Or it must been the all-American Verdell Jones! The injured Maurice Creek must be talent that you are talking about? Maybe it was The Beast Tom Pritchard! So much talent on that team! Lmao

I agree that we had some talent on that team, but the talent was a couple years out from that point.

So...you laugh at the lack of talent on that team...and then agree the team had talent...?

Do I have that right?

Laugh your a$$ off all you like. The talent on that team was there for better than a last place finish. Don't confuse what I'm saying like I expected them to win the Big Ten that year, or expected them to go on a deep tourney run. I'm not.

Last place in the Big Ten in year three at Indiana is inexcusable. Even with a team as "untalented" as that one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: T.M.P.
There was more than enough talent to not finish last.

Ok. With the talent on that team, where do you believe that they should have finished? You believe that they should have finished 12th, 11th, 10th, runners up, or champs? What do you think?
 
I don't mind the so-called negative posters calling out concerns or even if they view the concerns as doom and gloom which i'm not sure that is the case. I recognize the same concerns but with less exaggeration I guess. Yes, somebody will need to step up to take over responsibilities of those who left. On paper they team seems balanced and deep. Every team has players who graduate or leave. They can post all criticizing posts they like and my optimism for next year won't be damaged until I see a few games and how the new guys fit.

I think Newkirk will be just fine but I hope he doesn't struggle with the fast pace Crean plays. You'd like to think Crean's style would be perfect for him with his speed and quickness but we have seen the bad of the hurry up and force shots into the teeth of defense when players struggle to grasp this offense. Troy finally seemed to finally figure it out over the 2nd half of last year. He still had his crazy Troy moments but he played more under control. I think Troy just ranked low in BBIQ and it took him longer to adjust. I think he would have been huge this year had he returned. Ultimately it comes down to playing and producing but Newkirk has practiced with the team for a year and I believe you learn a lot by sitting on the bench and watching especially when it will be your job to run the offense.
 
So...you laugh at the lack of talent on that team...and then agree the team had talent...?

Do I have that right?

Laugh your a$$ off all you like. The talent on that team was there for better than a last place finish. Don't confuse what I'm saying like I expected them to win the Big Ten that year, or expected them to go on a deep tourney run. I'm not.

Last place in the Big Ten in year three at Indiana is inexcusable. Even with a team as "untalented" as that one.

I stated that there was talent on the team but they were year or two out. It is called development of a player.

I remember during that year people called for us to slow the temple of the game, so we could play to our talent. I do believe that if Coach would have done that then we might have finished maybe 11th or 12th in the Big Ten. But I do believe that it would have cost us the next two years. Usually long term goals supersede short term goals and in this case it was not the exception. Is it really that big of deal that we finished last compared to 11th or 12 th in the Big Ten?
 
Ok. With the talent on that team, where do you believe that they should have finished? You believe that they should have finished 12th, 11th, 10th, runners up, or champs? What do you think?
Somewhere in the 8-10 range. There was enough talent to do that. Year 3 was when it became clear than Crean wasn't ready for prime time.
 
Ok. With the talent on that team, where do you believe that they should have finished? You believe that they should have finished 12th, 11th, 10th, runners up, or champs? What do you think?

Well...the year prior they finished 9th. You know, LMAO with a Freshman Watford. LMAO a Freshman Hulls. LMAO a Freshman Elston. LMAO a Sophomore Beast Tom Pritchard. And a LMAO Sophomore All-American Verdell Jones...

So...with everyone you mentioned one year younger, and without the help of Oladipo and Sheehey, they were somehow able to finish better than last in the conference...

Crazy, I know.

So maybe that team should have finished no worse than 9th in the Big Ten for Tom's third year at Indiana to "not count"...
 
  • Like
Reactions: T.M.P.
I stated that there was talent on the team but they were year or two out. It is called development of a player.

I remember during that year people called for us to slow the temple of the game, so we could play to our talent. I do believe that if Coach would have done that then we might have finished maybe 11th or 12th in the Big Ten. But I do believe that it would have cost us the next two years. Usually long term goals supersede short term goals and in this case it was not the exception. Is it really that big of deal that we finished last compared to 11th or 12 th in the Big Ten?
It was the lack of reasonable progress that troubled many of us. Reasonable progress would've resulted in a higher finish.
 
Is it really that big of deal that we finished last compared to 11th or 12 th in the Big Ten?

Um...11th place in 2010-11 was last place.

The 12th team, Nebraska, didn't join the Conference until July of 2011, after that season...

Try and keep up.
 
I stated that there was talent on the team but they were year or two out. It is called development of a player.

I remember during that year people called for us to slow the temple of the game, so we could play to our talent. I do believe that if Coach would have done that then we might have finished maybe 11th or 12th in the Big Ten. But I do believe that it would have cost us the next two years. Usually long term goals supersede short term goals and in this case it was not the exception. Is it really that big of deal that we finished last compared to 11th or 12 th in the Big Ten?
My issue with year three is that he should've recruited and managed his roster better in years one and two. It doesn't take long to get 8-9 deep in hoops. This isn't football
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tasmanian Devil
Coach Crean already made it to the final four at Marqutte, so I think that it is foolish to think that he cannot do it at Indiana. With the complete overall of the team and him filling the roster with high school talent, I give him a pass for the first three years. If anyone give stats that include the first three years, it shows that they clearly have an agenda. He has made the sweet sixteen three times out of the last five years. I wish we have went farther, but it is not as horrible that some has made it out to be. We can go farther than a sweet sixteen appearance and I expect that we will go farther.
Since you believe that since he did it once he can do it again...do you also believe that if given the time Mike Davis would've taken us back to the title game?

Or do you agree that a team can catch lightning in a bottle, get hot at the right time, 83 NcSt 84 Nova, or have a generational type talent that hides the teams weaknesses 79 InSt 02 Marq?
 
Well...the year prior they finished 9th. You know, LMAO with a Freshman Watford. LMAO a Freshman Hulls. LMAO a Freshman Elston. LMAO a Sophomore Beast Tom Pritchard. And a LMAO Sophomore All-American Verdell Jones...

So...with everyone you mentioned one year younger, and without the help of Oladipo and Sheehey, they were somehow able to finish better than last in the conference...

Crazy, I know.

So maybe that team should have finished no worse than 9th in the Big Ten for Tom's third year at Indiana to "not count"...


We won one more game in conference play the second year than the third year. So you would be happy that we would have won four games instead of three. Or we should have won five games that year? I knew that we did not have the talent to finish in the first half of the Big Ten, so it really did not matter if we finished last or eighth. I do understand that progress is not always linear, because it is more complicated than that. It was more important for Coach to lay the foundation of his team philosophy than worring about if we finished eighth or last the first few years. And I concur with that approach.
 
Since you believe that since he did it once he can do it again...do you also believe that if given the time Mike Davis would've taken us back to the title game?

Or do you agree that a team can catch lightning in a bottle, get hot at the right time, 83 NcSt 84 Nova, or have a generational type talent that hides the teams weaknesses 79 InSt 02 Marq?


I believe that you are comparing apples to oranges. Yes, Mike Davis did take our team to the Championship game, but he did not do this with his own players. Everyone knows that this was Bobby's team with his team of high basketball IQ players.

Tom Crean took his own team to the final four, and I do believe that he can get there again.
 
We won one more game in conference play the second year than the third year. So you would be happy that we would have won four games instead of three. Or we should have won five games that year? I knew that we did not have the talent to finish in the first half of the Big Ten, so it really did not matter if we finished last or eighth. I do understand that progress is not always linear, because it is more complicated than that. It was more important for Coach to lay the foundation of his team philosophy than worring about if we finished eighth or last the first few years. And I concur with that approach.

Oh no no no...you scoffed at the "talent" on that third year team as if expecting anything better than a last place finish was asking for a miracle. But when it's pointed out to you that the very same talent, one year younger, had better results...suddenly it's all Tom Crean was "laying the foundation of his team philosophy than worrying about if we finished eighth or last the first few years"...BS.

Tom Crean was trying to win every game in his third year.

Year three was a let down, by any stretch of the imagination. And you bloviating about 'foundation' or 'philosophy' is a non-starter. It was year three. Foundation and philosophy were already in place.
 
Last place in the Big Ten in year three at Indiana is inexcusable. Even with a team as "untalented" as that one.

If you're halfway decent at all as a coach you can at LEAST finish better than 11th in an 11 team league in year 3.

And if you can't? Maybe, just maybe you don't belong at a place like IU in the first place.
 
If you're halfway decent at all as a coach you can at LEAST finish better than 11th in an 11 team league in year 3.

And if you can't? Maybe, just maybe you don't belong at a place like IU in the first place.

But what if you rebound and win a couple of conference championships in the next 5 years?
 
Oh no no no...you scoffed at the "talent" on that third year team as if expecting anything better than a last place finish was asking for a miracle. But when it's pointed out to you that the very same talent, one year younger, had better results...suddenly it's all Tom Crean was "laying the foundation of his team philosophy than worrying about if we finished eighth or last the first few years"...BS.

Tom Crean was trying to win every game in his third year.

Year three was a let down, by any stretch of the imagination. And you bloviating about 'foundation' or 'philosophy' is a non-starter. It was year three. Foundation and philosophy were already in place.

It was year three of where we started with walk ons, soccer players, and baseball players. Coach even had a public tryout just to fill the roster, so I do not believe after two years the foundation of his basketball philosophy was laid fully. Especially when there was no upperclassman to lead and teach how Coach wanted it done.

Year three we had our best player injured Maurice Creek and lost our big man who was declared ineligible by the NCAA. That team could not make up from those key losses. Unlike this past year where team has matured enough to overcome losing their leading scorer JB, a starter RJ, and a key bench player JM. Hell they lost three key players before the season started! That is a total of six key players lost at some point of the season with this past team had to overcome to win the Big Ten and get to the sweet sixteen. Wow!

So you might call BS on that but you are trying to avoid the truth of what really happen, so you can create your own narrative based upon pure fantasy. I rather live in reality and objectively take in the good with the bad.
 
It was year three of where we started with walk ons, soccer players, and baseball players. Coach even had a public tryout just to fill the roster, so I do not believe after two years the foundation of his basketball philosophy was laid fully. Especially when there was no upperclassman to lead and teach how Coach wanted it done.

Year three we had our best player injured Maurice Creek and lost our big man who was declared ineligible by the NCAA. That team could not make up from those key losses. Unlike this past year where team has matured enough to overcome losing their leading scorer JB, a starter RJ, and a key bench player JM. Hell they lost three key players before the season started! That is a total of six key players lost at some point of the season with this past team had to overcome to win the Big Ten and get to the sweet sixteen. Wow!

So you might call BS on that but you are trying to avoid the truth of what really happen, so you can create your own narrative based upon pure fantasy. I rather live in reality and objectively take in the good with the bad.
Crean could not have foreseen the Creek injury, but excusing the season's outcome even partially on the unavailability of a lightly recruited center who was sure to have his eligibility questioned doesn't work. You're welcome to forgive, at least where MC is concerned, but please don't portray the situation inaccurately. It underscores the weakness of your position.
 
Ok. With the talent on that team, where do you believe that they should have finished? You believe that they should have finished 12th, 11th, 10th, runners up, or champs? What do you think?
7th 8th....
 
Hell they lost three key players before the season started! That is a total of six key players lost at some point of the season with this past team had to overcome to win the Big Ten and get to the sweet sixteen. Wow!

We should just start calling Tom Crean "Anne Sullivan" then, right? I mean, never mind that those players were removed for repeated off-the-court issues that Tom failed to act upon with effective discipline when they first became a problem. What a Miracle Worker. Yes! Heaven has spoken!!! Finally, a Sweet Sixteen...in year 8.

With spin like that I hope you're getting paid very well by the Athletic Department to post here.


So you might call BS on that but you are trying to avoid the truth of what really happen, so you can create your own narrative based upon pure fantasy. I rather live in reality and objectively take in the good with the bad.

The truth, is exactly what I stated it was...that "no-talent" team you laughed your ass off about finished 9th exactly one year prior. And when called out on that inconvenient little fact, you completely ignored it and moved on to..."Crean didn't care about wins and blah blah blah Foundation and blah blah blah Philosophy"...That's what really happened.

So it looks as if the only one avoiding the truth, is you. The only narrative based on pure fantasy, is yours.

But all this coming from a poster who didn't even know how many teams were in the Big Ten in 2011, really isn't all that surprising...
 
We should just start calling Tom Crean "Anne Sullivan" then, right? I mean, never mind that those players were removed for repeated off-the-court issues that Tom failed to act upon with effective discipline when they first became a problem. What a Miracle Worker. Yes! Heaven has spoken!!! Finally, a Sweet Sixteen...in year 8.

With spin like that I hope you're getting paid very well by the Athletic Department to post here.




The truth, is exactly what I stated it was...that "no-talent" team you laughed your ass off about finished 9th exactly one year prior. And when called out on that inconvenient little fact, you completely ignored it and moved on to..."Crean didn't care about wins and blah blah blah Foundation and blah blah blah Philosophy"...That's what really happened.

So it looks as if the only one avoiding the truth, is you. The only narrative based on pure fantasy, is yours.

But all this coming from a poster who didn't even know how many teams were in the Big Ten in 2011, really isn't all that surprising...

I did not ignore it, but on the contrary I addressed it. They won one more game in the Big Ten during the second season than the third season. I do not think that is much of a regression. Both seasons were hard to watch and the results were expected if you objectively analysis the talent on both teams. I also stated that progress is not always linear and that you might have a few set backs on the way. Do you think Coach Crean has made progress?
 
Crean could not have foreseen the Creek injury, but excusing the season's outcome even partially on the unavailability of a lightly recruited center who was sure to have his eligibility questioned doesn't work. You're welcome to forgive, at least where MC is concerned, but please don't portray the situation inaccurately. It underscores the weakness of your position.

Losing a seven foot 277 lb center would be a blow for most teams especially a team so fragile as ours back then. I think that I am portraying it accurately from a logic standpoint.
 
Losing a seven foot 277 lb center would be a blow for most teams especially a team so fragile as ours back then. I think that I am portraying it accurately from a logic standpoint.
Can you walk me through his playing highlights since his abbreviated IU gig? I think there's obviously some doubt as to his ability to contribute.
 
I did not ignore it, but on the contrary I addressed it. They won one more game in the Big Ten during the second season than the third season. I do not think that is much of a regression. Both seasons were hard to watch and the results were expected if you objectively analysis the talent on both teams. I also stated that progress is not always linear and that you might have a few set backs on the way. Do you think Coach Crean has made progress?

No, sorry...no one was expecting Indiana to lose it's last 9 games that season. Even those with an "objective analysis the talent on both teams"...(whatever that means).

It's funny you say progress isn't always linear, because that's exactly what it was until the failed year 3 in question.

Do I think Crean has made progress? Sure, obviously he's faring better in the Big Ten and overall. But isn't that to be expected after you know, 8 years in one place? Especially if that place happens to be a place like Indiana, with all it's built-in advantages...?

Do I think he's progressed to a point of sustained consistency? No, absolutely not. Especially if you look at his last four years.

I should also mention that I think he's actually regressed in some areas. Specifically, with regards to his relationship with the Indiana High School coaches. I understand that some here might blow that off as "no big deal" . But I happen to think otherwise. I'm sure Mike Davis would agree.
 
Last edited:
Losing a seven foot 277 lb center would be a blow for most teams especially a team so fragile as ours back then. I think that I am portraying it accurately from a logic standpoint.

No, you're not. That very same team finished 9th in the Big Ten one year prior to that without the help of Guy Marc Michel.

How on earth could they have done that?

What other logic bombs are you going to drop on us?
 
It would take much for him to be a contributor on the front court on that team. Oh Pritchard and Howard had the front court on lock down! I do apologize!
 
It would take much for him to be a contributor on the front court on that team. Oh Pritchard and Howard had the front court on lock down! I do apologize!
So, a kid who couldn't play and was sure to be at risk from an eligibility standpoint was nonetheless a drive by loss for Crean? Like your fellow travelers, that's a "dog ate my homework" worthy effort.
 
Since you believe that since he did it once he can do it again...do you also believe that if given the time Mike Davis would've taken us back to the title game?

Or do you agree that a team can catch lightning in a bottle, get hot at the right time, 83 NcSt 84 Nova, or have a generational type talent that hides the teams weaknesses 79 InSt 02 Marq?
fwiw a majority of Mike Davis's 2002 team was trained in basketball fundamentals by RMK. Half the coaching was already done.

That was also his weakness which became apparent as he got his own players. He just wasn't a good teacher of fundamentals and his players never got better.
 
Last edited:
fwiw a majority of Mike Davis's team was trained in basketball fundamentals by RMK. Half the coaching was already done.

That was also his weakness which became apparent. He just wasn't a good teacher of fundamentals and his players never got better.
Losing treloar was big

I don't think MD was ready, but I don't agree that just because someone's done something once they can do it again. Especially something like the NCAAT
 
Losing treloar was big

I don't think MD was ready, but I don't agree that just because someone's done something once they can do it again. Especially something like the NCAAT
I think so too, especially on defense. We had, for the years he was here, a decent defense.
 
We should just start calling Tom Crean "Anne Sullivan" then, right? I mean, never mind that those players were removed for repeated off-the-court issues that Tom failed to act upon with effective discipline when they first became a problem. What a Miracle Worker. Yes! Heaven has spoken!!! Finally, a Sweet Sixteen...in year 8.

With spin like that I hope you're getting paid very well by the Athletic Department to post here.




The truth, is exactly what I stated it was...that "no-talent" team you laughed your ass off about finished 9th exactly one year prior. And when called out on that inconvenient little fact, you completely ignored it and moved on to..."Crean didn't care about wins and blah blah blah Foundation and blah blah blah Philosophy"...That's what really happened.

So it looks as if the only one avoiding the truth, is you. The only narrative based on pure fantasy, is yours.

But all this coming from a poster who didn't even know how many teams were in the Big Ten in 2011, really isn't all that surprising...

What really bothered me that year was beating Illinois at home, having an embarrassing clown show celebration like we accomplished something and then losing every game but one (Minne) left on the schedule.
 
What really bothered me that year was beating Illinois at home, having an embarrassing clown show celebration like we accomplished something and then losing every game but one (Minne) left on the schedule.
Would you call that the first sign of what we had gotten ourselves into with TC?
 
Would you call that the first sign of what we had gotten ourselves into with TC?
I really didn't like the hire to begin with. I didn't like how he handled or recruited big men at Marquette. Disliked how he micromanaged his guards. Disliked how he put on constant dog and pony marketing shows. And especially his disregarded for defense and valuing every possession,. and also disliked his reputation as a Creaner.

I convinced myself that IU is not Marquette and he would get better players here, mostly due to signing Zeller, and he would change. So I gave him a chance. It lasted 1.5 years...

He had Zeller dribble driving which perked my ire. Then he had him dribble driving into a zone, even after a first half where it clearly wasn't working. He lost me..

And, unless he does a complete 180, and starts valuing possessions and defense, and stop having big men dribble driving and especially into zones... I'll never back him as our coach.

He needs to quit thinking he can reinvent the game. One more dribble? Yea, for a player like Oladipo, but Yogi or Cody? Switching defenses. Has that ever worked for anyone? Switching everything? It's not the 1980's. Having 400 offense sets with 800 variations? Basketball is a simple game. How about getting good at one set or two sets. Emphasizing deflections when we never pressure? Why? I still don't get why he does that. He read about it once?

He's just a truly silly coach in so many ways. I hate gimmicks and his system is riddled with them.

Though I didn't think much of him, I think the first time I truly noted how bad he was as a coach was when someone pointed out what he was doing against Butler.

He kept running a high pick and roll with Oladipo and Zeller. Stevens countered by putting Barnes on Cody, and Smith on Oladipo to start so when they switched, Smith would be on Zeller. Get me... Crean kept running the play (or at least our team did without him adjusting or telling them to stop) . It was truly embarrassing ..

Then he made a statement when asked about analytics and answered saying he gauged opponents weaknesses using +/- stats... which is impossible and not what +/- is used for.
 
7th 8th....

Year 3 has always been a sore spot with me too, however I looked back at my roster ratings for that year and here are the games that had a different W/L result than expected by my ratings.

IU vs Ill (-3) W
IU vs Min (-2) W
IU (-3.5) vs NW L
IU (-3.5) vs PSU L
IU (-5) vs Iowa L

So by my own ratings (whether they are decent ratings or not), I really only had IU finishing ahead of Iowa anyway. It seems like Watford hurt his wrist vs MSU and he may have been wearing a cast/brace in one or two of the unexpected losses.

Regardless, finishing last sucked big time, but maybe I over reacted just a bit at the time. Do you keep your old ratings? If so, what final record did you predict for that season? I turn mine into expected Sagarin ratings, which is how I got my pointspreads.
 
Year 3 has always been a sore spot with me too, however I looked back at my roster ratings for that year and here are the games that had a different W/L result than expected by my ratings.

IU vs Ill (-3) W
IU vs Min (-2) W
IU (-3.5) vs NW L
IU (-3.5) vs PSU L
IU (-5) vs Iowa L

So by my own ratings (whether they are decent ratings or not), I really only had IU finishing ahead of Iowa anyway. It seems like Watford hurt his wrist vs MSU and he may have been wearing a cast/brace in one or two of the unexpected losses.

Regardless, finishing last sucked big time, but maybe I over reacted just a bit at the time. Do you keep your old ratings? If so, what final record did you predict for that season? I turn mine into expected Sagarin ratings, which is how I got my pointspreads.
Yea, we had them 7th in preseason adjusted to 9th with the injuries on the actual. 38th preseason, adjusted to 56th with injuries and non-development of a few players preconference, adjusted to 72nd with injuries actual. So I agree with you, he didn't underperform drastically, he just underperformed.

Somewhere I have a chart showing his record with four days of prep vs ranked or major conference teams. If I find it, I'll post it .. It's not pretty. Or it's not pretty when compared to the better coaches.
 
Last edited:
Yea, we had them 7th in preseason adjusted to 9th with the injuries on the actual. 38th preseason, adjusted to 56th with injuries and non-development preconference, adjusted to 72nd with injuries actual.

Mine are injury adjusted now too, but back then I didn't make any adjustments because I pretty much only used them for my Fantasy League draft in December. What was so disappointing at the time (and still to be honest) is Crean is one of the few coaches who's teams never significantly outperform the roster rating (other than the D. Wade team which predates my ratings anyway.)

Beilein's Michigan teams for example have significantly over performed several times... Painter too
 
ADVERTISEMENT