House Intelligence Committee Draft Impeachment Report

Cortez88

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It didn't exonerate the FBI, I agree with that part. It found errors, which doesn't particularly surprise me. I bet any large scale investigation has errors. And yes, we should clean up those errors. But again, the report found no bias or improper motivation in launching the investigation. That hasn't been the mantra of Trump.

By all means fix the errors. I am betting Carter Page isn't the only American to run afoul of FBI procedural errors. On behalf of all Americans, the errors need corrected.
We can acknowledge that the IG report noted legitimate surveillance program issues. However, the flip side is that we have to all also acknowledge that it debunks the conspiracy fever dreams of Trump. Both can be true.
 

Marvin the Martian

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I am guessing Durham will avoid any joke being on him. The IG report definitely didn’t exonerate the FBI. Carter Page is owed because of the abuse perpetrated on him.

BTW AA paid a dear price for trying to wear too many hats for clients. I owe my wife. I was offered a job by AA in Indy coming out of IU. My wife insisted she wasn’t moving to Indy. Would have been hell to invest your life in the place and lose everything after Enron.
Are you still going to the bowl? We are in section 140. It is a quick trip for us, driving down on the 1st and back on the 3rd.
 

stollcpa

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Are you still going to the bowl? We are in section 140. It is a quick trip for us, driving down on the 1st and back on the 3rd.
Where do you live?

I am waiting for an answer from my son. He’s trying to get off work through the 3rd. He supposed to have an answer for me this week.
 

CO. Hoosier

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You seem to think resist is a big deal. Google "Tea Party no compromise" and see how many hits you find. No compromise is the functional equivalent of resist. Yet I never recall you complaining about the Tea Party.
Then you need to improve your recall. I strongly criticized the Freedom Caucus about its unyielding stance on immigration.

I criticized all sides, including the right wing gun zealots, about the totally stupid approach to gun legislation.

i could go on about the 2011 budget deal but that is a little more complicated.
 
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Marvin the Martian

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I credit Marvin with an abundance of good faith.
Thanks. My patience has run thin at times under Trump. For example, anyone who says there was nothing at all wrong with the phone call. I may disagree with the opinion that mentioning Biden was a big mistake but far from impeachable, but I can accept that belief and engage with it. And frankly, sometimes I think we can be overkill on the "Trump bad" meme. He most certainly is bad, but I wish we could focus less on that than on the policies. Policy discussions have dropped to almost nothing and that is disappointing. Yes, I know part of it is the Senate refuses to pass anything at all so policy is virtually useless.
 

Marvin the Martian

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Then you need to improve your recall. I strongly criticized the Freedom Caucus about its unyielding stance on immigration.

I criticized all sides, including the right wing gun zealots, about the totally stupid approach to gun legislation.

i could go on about the 2011 budget deal but that is a little more complicated.
Fair point, so do you agree that there is a fair comparison to resist and let's say the Freedom caucus?

There are issues that the Democrats and Trump could work together on, not many but some (infrastructure was one). It hasn't happened. Without casting any blame on any side, it is a shame it hasn't happened.
 

CO. Hoosier

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The IG, who is independent, said there were problems. So no, I am not OK. The problems need corrected structurally and Ohr investigated and charged if deemed appropriate. But read the IG report, the IG found the FISA warrant itself to be valid. Quoting Barr, who is as far from independent as is logically possible, isn't really going to move a needle. It is like quoting Bill Belichick on whether or not the Patriots cheat. That isn't really fair, Belichick is at least good at what he does. OK, maybe it is fair as Barr is obviously good at defending Trump over you know, supporting America.

It turns out Steele was friends with a Trump. So even the idea he had some extraordinary animus on Trump doesn't hunt.

From a Fox story:

Specifically, the report concluded that investigators found no intentional misconduct or political bias surrounding the probe's launch and efforts to seek a controversial Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) warrant to monitor former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page in the early months of the investigation.​
I don’t intend to read the IG report. Could you provide a quote to the section about the validity of the warrant? Having litigated a number of bad warrant cases, I know that a facility “valid” warrant doesn’t answer all important questions.
 

CO. Hoosier

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Fair point, so do you agree that there is a fair comparison to resist and let's say the Freedom caucus?

There are issues that the Democrats and Trump could work together on, not many but some (infrastructure was one). It hasn't happened. Without casting any blame on any side, it is a shame it hasn't happened.
I think the RESISTANCE! is more broad based. While the Freedom Caucus is a legislative group, the resistance is legislative, administrative, in the media, and sadly even in some courtrooms. My sense is that the resistance is also more active at the grass roots beginning with the post inauguration march—but that is probably arguable.
 

Marvin the Martian

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I think the RESISTANCE! is more broad based. While the Freedom Caucus is a legislative group, the resistance is legislative, administrative, in the media, and sadly even in some courtrooms. My sense is that the resistance is also more active at the grass roots beginning with the post inauguration march—but that is probably arguable.
Your difference is why I compared it to the Tea Party and not the House Freedom Caucus. The Tea Party was decidedly "prevent Obama from doing anything" at a grass roots level.
 

CO. Hoosier

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Your difference is why I compared it to the Tea Party and not the House Freedom Caucus. The Tea Party was decidedly "prevent Obama from doing anything" at a grass roots level.
The Freedom Caucus is composed of tea partiers. Notwithstanding McConnell's “one term” remark, he was instrumental in many legislative fixes, including the 2011 budget deal. He tried to work with Obama on immigration, but the Freedom Caucus killed it. (IIRC This is why Cruz called him a liar).

On the other hand, Pelosi and Schumer have said it is very important to not hand Trump a victory. So important things like the USMCA are dead in the water
 

iu_a_att

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Thanks. My patience has run thin at times under Trump. For example, anyone who says there was nothing at all wrong with the phone call. I may disagree with the opinion that mentioning Biden was a big mistake but far from impeachable, but I can accept that belief and engage with it. And frankly, sometimes I think we can be overkill on the "Trump bad" meme. He most certainly is bad, but I wish we could focus less on that than on the policies. Policy discussions have dropped to almost nothing and that is disappointing. Yes, I know part of it is the Senate refuses to pass anything at all so policy is virtually useless.
Well, we wish for a lot of things but we also have to live in the real world. Frankly, I think the policy discussions you wish for just aren't really relevant now. Trump, Putin and the GOP have launched an attack on our democracy. The attack has very little to do with specific policies and much more to do with power. Fascist authoritarians like Putin sustain themselves by rigging elections in a variety of ways and by maintaining support among police, military, controlling the media and buying off "conservative" nationalist religious leaders with policies that are repressive of women and minorities. That is what they have on tap for the United States. The only issue of significance is whether we are going to go that path or not. The pretense that we might have policy discussions of the kind that are had in functioning democracies seems more like a pleasant and reassuring delusion akin to writing letters to Santa Claus. It is a pretense and delusion that seems to be particularly appealing to Democrats.
 
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Rockfish1

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We can acknowledge that the IG report noted legitimate surveillance program issues. However, the flip side is that we have to all also acknowledge that it debunks the conspiracy fever dreams of Trump. Both can be true.
Democrats have no political reason to ignore FISA problems, while Republicans are all in on loony debunked conspiracy theories. Our politics are not symmetrical.
 

Rockfish1

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Democrats have no political reason to ignore FISA problems, while Republicans are all in on loony debunked conspiracy theories. Our politics are not symmetrical.
Let me sharpen that point: Republicans are all in on loony debunked Russian disinformation. Even though Trump’s removal would result only in President Pence.
 

iu_a_att

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I guess we’ll see if good faith can remedy bad faith.
To the extent that people have ears to hear good faith remedies bad faith.
Democrats have no political reason to ignore FISA problems, while Republicans are all in on loony debunked conspiracy theories. Our politics are not symmetrical.
This last sentence is really key. It behooves all of us to understand the asymmetries that drive our current politics.
 

Rockfish1

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To the extent that people have ears to hear good faith remedies bad faith.
This last sentence is really key. It behooves all of us to understand the asymmetries that drive our current politics.
I particularly wish the asymmetries were better understood by our political press, which erroneously treats the parties as mirror images.
 

iu_a_att

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I particularly wish the asymmetries were better understood by our political press, which erroneously treats the parties as mirror images.
Our political press, like all others who sell us stories, panders to the conceits of their paying audience. To identify asymmetries is to alienate some paying customers.
 
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Marvin the Martian

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Our political press, like all others who sell us stories, panders to the conceits of their paying audience. To identify asymmetries is to alienate some paying customers.
It goes back to why a story on the space program has to include a quote from the flat earth society.
 

iu_a_att

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Let me sharpen that point: Republicans are all in on loony debunked Russian disinformation. Even though Trump’s removal would result only in President Pence.
Increasingly the GOP is all in on adopting the Russian model here in the U.S. Both Putin and the GOP are engaged in information warfare. The GOP preference for Trump is that he is seen as a more effective warrior than Pence. It isn't about policy.
 

ButHerEmails

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To the extent that people have ears to hear good faith remedies bad faith.
This last sentence is really key. It behooves all of us to understand the asymmetries that drive our current politics.
Ears to hear does not equal a mind and willingness to listen/comprehend.
 
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iu_a_att

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Ears to hear does not equal a mind and willingness to listen/comprehend.
Well, I think that is the meaning of the biblical phrase. Those with ears to hear means those whose mind is open and receptive to the message. When Marvin counters CoH it is not that he might persuade CoH it is that some other readers may have "ears to hear" what Marvin is writing.
 

CO. Hoosier

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Democrats have no political reason to ignore FISA problems, while Republicans are all in on loony debunked conspiracy theories. Our politics are not symmetrical.
A conspiracy would have been better than what the IG actually said. Instead we have deep-seeded incompetence and individual dishonesty in the federal agency that should be the gold standard of competence and ethics.
 
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dahldc

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A conspiracy would have been better than what the IG actually said. Instead we have deep-seeded incompetence and individual dishonesty in the federal agency that should be the gold standard of competence and ethics.
LOL.
 

stollcpa

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A conspiracy would have been better than what the IG actually said. Instead we have deep-seeded incompetence and individual dishonesty in the federal agency that should be the gold standard of competence and ethics.
The first FISA warrant could have been filed in good faith and ignorance. What should the remedy be when they knew FISA Warrants 2-3-4 were unverified and the Steele Report was total bunk that they were relying on?
 

CO. Hoosier

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The first FISA warrant could have been filed in good faith and ignorance. What should the remedy be when they knew FISA Warrants 2-3-4 were unverified and the Steele Report was total bunk that they were relying on?
somebody had to verify the report with personal knowledge. That person committed perjury. The lawyers should disciplined and maybe disbarred. There are also civil remedies including punitive damages.

Congress should review the IG report and tighten the FISA requirements.
 

Digressions

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I don’t intend to read the IG report. Could you provide a quote to the section about the validity of the warrant? Having litigated a number of bad warrant cases, I know that a facility “valid” warrant doesn’t answer all important questions.
A conspiracy would have been better than what the IG actually said. Instead we have deep-seeded incompetence and individual dishonesty in the federal agency that should be the gold standard of competence and ethics.
Please reconcile these two statements. I can think of several possibilities.

And then remind me where the IG report shows where the Trump campaign was wiretapped, or where the FBI planted spies in it, or any of the other lies and disinformation the POTUS spread? Should the POTUS be honest, competent, and ethical?

We had to wait for this report to debunk the bullshit, but the WH didn't like what it said, so we've found another lackey who's going to investigate further, so we can spread more lies, under the guise of, "just wait, until the report comes out."

It would half ass be funny, if it weren't so dangerous. Hahaha, you said, "dishonesty".:rolleyes:
 

zeke4ahs

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After listening to Barr today, I weep for this country. What is it about this corrupt, stupid man that makes previously honorable, intelligent men throw away every principle they have ever believed in? Is it truly just about power? It’s very chilling. I hope I’m alive to read history books about this era in our country.
 

iu_a_att

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After listening to Barr today, I weep for this country. What is it about this corrupt, stupid man that makes previously honorable, intelligent men throw away every principle they have ever believed in? Is it truly just about power? It’s very chilling. I hope I’m alive to read history books about this era in our country.
chilling is exactly right. today Trump had the Russian foreign minister into the oval office for off the record meeting. Times like these don't determine character they reveal it.
 
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CO. Hoosier

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Goalposts constructed entirely out of bullshit can be moved very quickly.
We need a .gif of goalposts moving.
We are a long way from the goal post in this thing. First down lines change as the ball is advanced. The Democrats kicked a 20 yard field goal and it was 19 yards short. Now Durham is running it up the gut.
 

Marvin the Martian

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We are a long way from the goal post in this thing. First down lines change as the ball is advanced. The Democrats kicked a 20 yard field goal and it was 19 yards short. Now Durham is running it up the gut.
Durham released his criticism of the IG report almost before the report was released. How often in your experience do prosecutors do that? Durham was waving pom-poms saying "team Trump".
 
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Marvin the Martian

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Durham released his criticism of the IG report almost before the report was released. How often in your experience do prosecutors do that? Durham was waving pom-poms saying "team Trump".
Let me add, I wonder how much money in foreign aid Durham is offering if countries announce potential dirt on the FBI (real or imagined)? It isn't like there is no track record of that ever being done by this administration, or of this AG seeing nothing at all worth even investigating by said action.
 
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CO. Hoosier

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Durham released his criticism of the IG report almost before the report was released. How often in your experience do prosecutors do that? Durham was waving pom-poms saying "team Trump".
“Pom-poms”and “team trump”!? Good grief marv, this isn’t like you. Durham is a credible guy. You seem to be very triggered by the idea that certain public officials are under investigation for exceeding their authority and manipulating the legal process in an effort to further the RESISTANCE! Let’s see how the chips fall.

as for the timing of Durham’s comments, he saw the IG report weeks before it was released. He suggested edits to not cause harm to future prosecutions. I don’t know why he issued a public statement other than to remind the public that he is performing a different function.
 

CO. Hoosier

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Let me add, I wonder how much money in foreign aid Durham is offering if countries announce potential dirt on the FBI (real or imagined)? It isn't like there is no track record of that ever being done by this administration, or of this AG seeing nothing at all worth even investigating by said action.
Thus is serious tin foil hat territory.
 

Marvin the Martian

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Thus is serious tin foil hat territory.
It probably is, I agree. But your side is playing games. Your side is summed up by people like Rudy arguing the President cannot commit a crime. The IG looked at the whistleblower, the AG told the IG to pound sand because it is impossible for the President to commit a crime in foreign affairs. I do not believe Durham is doing what I suggest, but the lack of professionalism by everyone will make that charge happen.

If Obama had called up a foreign leader and said, "hey, can you announce an investigation into Trump" you would have been aplopletic.

An IG found real issues with Fast and Furious, and rightfully so. Imagine your reaction if moments after that was released an investigator hired by Holder released a statement blasting the IG report. I sure bet you would not thought that person an honest broker.
 

hoosboot

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A conspiracy would have been better than what the IG actually said. Instead we have deep-seeded incompetence and individual dishonesty in the federal agency that should be the gold standard of competence and ethics.
It's interesting that you've said that you have no intention of reading the IG report and yet you still feel qualified to speak to what it says and offer analysis.