House Intelligence Committee Draft Impeachment Report

Discussion in 'The Water Cooler' started by IUclover, Dec 3, 2019.

  1. iu_a_att

    iu_a_att All-American
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    I don't find a bit uncivil above. I agree with just about everything you wrote. I too have never been so alarmed.
     
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  2. MrBing

    MrBing All-Big Ten
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    I'm alarmed too and I agree with a lot of Rockfish's post. I don't think we can blame all this on "straight Christian white guys." There aren't enough of them to cause this and a lot of those people are also Democrats. My dad is a "straight Christian white guy" and he's not voting for Trump or any of the sycophant Republicans. My mother is a straight Christian black woman and more conservative than my dad and she's not voting for any Republicans. Period. I think the Democratic party has to stay away from blaming "straight Christian white guys" for Trumpism. I think it can backfire on us politically by alienating those on our side. Rockfish doing it on the WC is different but if too many Democrats do it we could have political problems.
     
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  3. iu_a_att

    iu_a_att All-American
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    I think you are right. Great post. We should be careful and thoughtful first and foremost because it is the right thing to do. The challenge is to live according to our values even when others do not.
     
  4. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    I think both you and Bing are right (and so is Howard Johnson). We owe it to ourselves to be the humans we want everyone to be.

    It is hard to do. I get Rock's point, it is awful hard to have a reason based conversation with someone who believes that Ukraine is behind 2016 (or is a truther, birther, Holocaust denier, etc). At some point it is on them to believe this stuff.

    Politically, it appears impeachment is a problem in Wisconsin. If it is, it probably is a problem in Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. It is hard to get to get to 270 without some combination of those states. So beyond what is right, politically calling those people names isn't likely to bolster the odds of Trump losing in 2020. We are just internet blokes, i get that. But my guess is message boards, social media, news story replies, all contain the same message; people believing the GOP on impeachment are idiots. It isn't just limited to what we can see here. In that regard, there is a bigger problem.

    I've tried having conversations with truthers, birthers, Holocaust deniers. It isn't easy, in fact it is maddeningly frustrating. How do we convert people who refuse to accept the basic facts, who in fact believe the fact the facts are what they are proves some deeper conspiracy? I don't know, I don't know if I've ever seen someone be converted. But that is the problem facing the members of the Democratic Party in the states above. I fear there is not an answer.
     
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  5. CO. Hoosier

    CO. Hoosier Hall of Famer
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    There is only one single reason why impeachment is moving forward--the Democrats have no candidate they now believe will beat Trump. Moreover, the lack of an appealing opposing candidate seems to be deliberate because (as some here say) Democrats don't want to soil their message by tempting a Trump voter to vote for a Democrat. Winning an election against a racist and incompetent clown should be a slam dunk. The Democrats can't pull that off, so they phony up impeachment and then blame the crazy Trump supporters for the sad state of politics.
     
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  6. iu_a_att

    iu_a_att All-American
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    Moreover, there is a global movement towards autocratic ethnic nationalism. That certainly goes well beyond our narrow culture wars here.
     
  7. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    So you do not believe asking a foreign power to announce a phony investigation of a political rival to be an abuse of power and you would have been here 100% absorbing Obama of it?
     
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  8. dahldc

    dahldc All-Big Ten
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    This place was better when you weren't posting anymore.
     
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  9. CO. Hoosier

    CO. Hoosier Hall of Famer
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    I believe what I said. This impeachment would not be moving forward if the Democrats believe they have a candidate with a good chance to win the White House.
     
  10. Rockfish1

    Rockfish1 Hall of Famer
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    Republicans tear down anything and anyone who stands in Trump’s way:

    THE BIG IDEA: After the 8 1/2-hour impeachment inquiry hearing wrapped up last night, Rep. Louie Gohmert (Tex.) joined the other GOP members of the House Judiciary Committee for a news conference. “All I got to say is: If you love America, mamas, don't let your babies grow up to go to Harvard or Stanford law school,” Gohmert said.

    . . . It was a fitting coda to a day that showcased a virulent strain of anti-elitism, even anti-intellectualism, that has flared up as Trump hijacked the GOP from the establishmentarians who once called the shots.

    Rep. Doug Collins (Ga.), the top Republican on the committee, set the tone in his opening statement. “America will see why most people don’t go to law school,” he declared. “No offense to our professors. But please. Really? We’re bringing you in here today to testify on stuff … that we already know, out of the classrooms that maybe you're getting ready for finals in, to discuss things that you probably haven't even had a chance to [read or watch].”

    Collins, who just got passed over for a Senate appointment despite Trump pressuring the governor of Georgia to pick him, pooh-poohed a sober-minded discussion about when the Founding Fathers thought impeachment would be advisable as “esoteric.”

    . . . Paul Taylor, the chief counsel for Republicans on the committee, suggested as he began questioning the four witnesses that the legal profession as a whole is somehow controlled by the left. He claimed at the start of his questioning – without any citations – that 97 percent of campaign contributions from lawyers during the 2016 presidential campaign went to Hillary Clinton while Trump received only 3 percent. “And the situation is essentially the same at law schools around the country, including those represented on the panel here today,” Taylor said.

    Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.), who told reporters at the start of the day how much he disliked attending lectures in law school, told Stanford Law School Professor Pamela Karlan that she was unable to see from “the ivory towers of your law school” how condescending she was being to “actual people in this country.”

    And so it went.

    . . .

    -- Marginalizing experts and debasing expertise have been hallmarks of the Trump presidency. Trump doesn’t just reject climate science. His administration has suppressed research. He’s purged nonpartisan experts from an array of government agencies. He still refuses to accept the consensus of the professionals in the intelligence community that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to boost his candidacy.

    The manager of Trump’s reelection campaign, Brad Parscale, referred to the scholars invited by Democrats to testify as “the Three Stooges” on Twitter. “Just more of the same old sham!” he wrote.

    -- The criticism of the professional class offers another proof point to illustrate why so many white-collar suburbanites who have traditionally supported Republicans have defected during the Trump era. But Trump has proven to also be a magnet for non-college-educated whites in the Rust Belt who are ancestrally Democratic, accelerating a once-in-a-generation realignment.

    . . .

    -- Rank-and-file Republicans have soured considerably on the value of colleges and universities in recent years. A Pew Research Center study published in August showed that only 33 percent of Republicans see value in higher education, down from 53 percent in 2012. “Roughly eight-in-ten Republicans (79%) say professors bringing their political and social views into the classroom is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (only 17% of Democrats say the same),” according to Pew. “And three-quarters of Republicans (vs. 31% of Democrats) point to too much concern about protecting students from views they might find offensive as a major reason for their views.​
     
  11. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    I have not seen detailed polling at the state level, but I suspect the same states as 2016 are polling inside the margin of error. If that is true, 2020 is a coin toss.
     
  12. iu_a_att

    iu_a_att All-American
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    it would be a simple quick matter for the GOP to impeach Trump and replace him with Pence. But they don't dare try. Why? Because they understand that Trump owns the GOP base. The base loves Trump precisely because he is a fascist. In fact, that is probably all they like about Trump. Your suggestion that impeachment has anything to do with the candidates the Democrats have available is absurd. Centrists like Bloomberg or even conservatives like Romney wouldn't do any better against Trump than Bernie Sanders. Knowing this the Dems figure they might as well run with a candidate they like. The fascists want fascism and that is the long and the short of it. If there are enough of them then they win otherwise the Democrat wins.
     
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  13. Digressions

    Digressions Freshman
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    You might be right, and if so, shame on the Democrats. Nevertheless, the right thing is being done, wrt impeachment. Politics be damned.
     
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  14. Zizkov

    Zizkov Moderator
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    I don't know how one absorbs Obama, but it sounds disturbing.
     
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  15. iu_a_att

    iu_a_att All-American
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    He isn't right. Moreover, as we have discussed at length above, the motives of whistleblowers, witnesses, Democrats and Republicans don't matter. What matters is that Trump has abused his office and engaged in bribery, extortion, obstruction in the service of trying to rig the next election. QED.
     
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  16. Digressions

    Digressions Freshman
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    I know he isn't right, but sometimes the most efficient way to dispense with negligible bullshit is to agree with it.
     
  17. CO. Hoosier

    CO. Hoosier Hall of Famer
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    Trump and his base are decidedly populist--the opposite of fascist. The fascists are clamoring for Clinton but might settle for Bloomberg.
     
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  18. CO. Hoosier

    CO. Hoosier Hall of Famer
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    Bias matters. Prejudice matters. Motive matters. This is what drives all actions and behaviors.
     
  19. Timmy!

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    @CO. Hoosier...

    Has Donald Trump committed an impeachable offense: yes or no?
     
  20. Cream&Crimson

    Cream&Crimson All-Big Ten
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    You conveniently didn't respond to att's next sentence.

    The truth matters. tRrump used his office to attempt to coerce the head of state of another country to announce a phony "investigation" of his own political opponent in order to advance his own personal political agenda. tRump has repeatedly obstructed justice, and obstructed the congressional investigation into his own wrongdoing. These are the truth. And they matter.
     
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  21. UncleMark

    UncleMark Hall of Famer
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    This oughtta be good...
     
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  22. zeke4ahs

    zeke4ahs Hall of Famer
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    Phony up impeachment charges? It’s sad when an attorney actually makes excuses for what Trump has done. What exactly is phony? Or are you saying you are fine with the incumbent bribing another leader, with already allocated money, to dig up dirt on his opponent? Can you truly look yourself in the mirror and say you are ok with that?
     
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  23. zeke4ahs

    zeke4ahs Hall of Famer
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    That’s not what the question was. I asked the same. Nice ducking. Now answer the question. You’re ok with what Trump clearly did?
     
  24. hoosboot

    hoosboot Hall of Famer
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    The problem that the Democrats have isn't that they have no candidate that they believe will beat President Trump. The problem they have is that they have too many candidates currently polling as ones who would beat President Trump. That leads them to be fractured while Republicans are extraordinarily unified in their support for President Trump.

    And there ain't nothing phony about the impeachment hearings. Even President Trump's own staff knew that he stepped in it badly when he tried to bribe Ukraine into launching an investigation about his political rival...one of the many currently polling as beating him.
     
  25. iu_a_att

    iu_a_att All-American
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    There are no fascists clamoring for Clinton or Bloomberg. Classic liberals are clamoring for Bloomberg and should have been clamoring for Clinton. Populism is not the opposite of fascism.
     
  26. UncleMark

    UncleMark Hall of Famer
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    Is calling Godwin in this forum recognized?
     
  27. CO. Hoosier

    CO. Hoosier Hall of Famer
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    The impeachment is not intended to remove trump. There is no effort to solicit bipartisan support. This impeachment is intended to gain partisan advantage in the 2020 election.
     
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  28. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    There is much common ground between populism and fascism. That article suggests the key difference is use of violence.
     
  29. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    The impeachment is not intended to remove trump. There is no effort to solicit bipartisan support. This impeachment is intended to gain partisan advantage in the 2020 election.[/QUOTE]

    How much bipartisan support existed in the Clinton impeachment? Is it fair to say that it was only done to weaken the Dems in 2000?
     
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  30. UncleMark

    UncleMark Hall of Famer
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    That's different.
     
  31. iu_a_att

    iu_a_att All-American
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    Your argument is phony. That the impeachment will likely fail does not mean the effort is not sincere. The presentation of evidence and the case is a very significant effort to solicit bipartisan support. Indeed, the case for impeachment should enjoy widespread bipartisan support. The impeachment efforts don't seem to be producing much in the way of partisan advantage for the Democrats in 2020.
     
    111 iu_a_att, Dec 5, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  32. mashnut

    mashnut Benchwarmer
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    Yes, we do read your posts, but thanks for the reminder.
     
  33. Cream&Crimson

    Cream&Crimson All-Big Ten
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    Bipartisan support? You couldn't have possibly written that with a straight face...
     
  34. Cream&Crimson

    Cream&Crimson All-Big Ten
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    This impeachment is intended to hold a rogue POTUS accountable for his criminal actions.
     
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  35. Digressions

    Digressions Freshman
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    Democrats are voting for removal. Republicans control whether he will be removed. It is not entirely clear whether the impeachment process will be a political win for Democrats. Trump and many Republicans publicly begged for impeachment. If Democrats do gain a political advantage, it will be because the voters giving the advantage recognize Republicans as putting party ahead of the Constitution/country. Republicans can prevent that by voting for removal.

    The evidence is there. There is nothing Democrats can do, or offer, in the way of bipartisanship. He deserves to be impeached.

    And why should Republican politicians fear voting for impeachment? The right wing media keeps their constituents well informed. That's how Republican politicians got elected in the first place, right? There hasn't been a single constituent on this board that has tried to defend the President and/or his actions.
     
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  36. iu_a_att

    iu_a_att All-American
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  37. Stuffshot

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    Please explain what appeal you think the Dems could make to "solicit bipartisan support" in the context of impeachment that you claim "is not intended to remove Trump."

    McConnell has said the Senate won't consider bills originating in the House. Gohmert, Meadows, Collins, Jordan and of course Trump don't give the Democrats credit for anything positive. Do you really think there is an appeal to be made that would gain Republican support for impeachment, censure or even mild criticism of Trump?

    What appeal would that be?
     
  38. iu_a_att

    iu_a_att All-American
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    Sorry, the first part you cite is actually CoH's argument I was trying to quote. I have fixed on edit. See if it makes sense now.

    I don't think there is any travesty that the GOP lickspittles won't ignore. That fact doesn't mean the Dems should not make proposals and arguments that make a case for those with ears to hear.
     
  39. Morrison

    Morrison Senior
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    Nyet.
     
  40. Standard Issue

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    They should present as if the Republicans are actually patriots and care about the country and can constitution. The fact that they aren't and don't can't be their primary concern.
     
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