Hot damn! Another mass shooting!

[FL33]

I'm not trying to ban them, simply use common sense to regulate them. You gun nuts always go for the absolutes. There is nothing to reconcile. Again will bad people still get them, sure, nobody has ever argued that, yet gun nuts keep using it. It's a straw man argument, but the dumbing down of the US makes it compelling to the sub idiots (ie majority of the gun owners).

I answered your question, so now answer mine. Show me a country with strict gun control that has even a fraction of the gun violence the US has?

If I started tomorrow, I could be a gun owner here in less then a month.

Why are you still using first grade logic?

Mexico.

Your turn.

It's been well known by all strategist and military scholars since 300 BC that fighting a war like this is an auto loss. And, yet we keep doing it. Vietnam taught us nothing.

Agree.

FL33, you realize we trained Bib Laden and what became the command structure for both Al-Qaeda and the Taliban when they were fighting the USSR correct? We trained the people that helped attack us in Somalia, the USS Cole, and 9/11. So that is why I am saying our policy in the middle east is moronic. By the way, 9/11 was (allegedly) funded by several members of the Saudi royal family, you know our "ally."

So instead of learning the lesson of 1970s-80s, we then arm and probably some cases trained the remnants of Al-Qaeda in Iraq to fight Assad in Syria. You know them as ISIS.

And yes, I would be more than willing to accept 10,000 Syrian refugees, because I don't see a Jihadi under every burqa. I know I have far more to fear from right-wing extremist shitheads like VPM than I do one of the 6 million Muslims already living in the US.

Debatable whether we trained bin laden. Probably not. Assisted the mujadeen, yes.

Again...I hear your complaints. What's your solution? I don't pretend to know the solution to ME policy, so I'm open to ideas. Proxy wars don't work (we trained bin laden). Invasion doesn't work (see currently). Non intervention doesn't work (see France). So.......?

Re your last paragraph: the argument that you hate the christian religious extremists here currently, so you want to surround yourself with foriegn muslim religious extremists appeals to me in neither logic nor fact.

 

[byerb01]

I haven't looked yet, but I'd bet they aren't Mooslim either.

I'd bet you are wrong...

 

[twenty02]

It's been well known by all strategist and military scholars since 300 BC that fighting a war like this is an auto loss. And, yet we keep doing it. Vietnam taught us nothing.

What exactly would you propose?

'shit happens. Guess we've got to live with it. We probably deserve it anyway.'

Let crazies take over huge swaths of territories in different areas of the world, and hope that works out?

Right, wrong, or indifferent....huge areas of the world have outsourced security to the US. People like Z live in eastern Europe in a good life, much due to a huge security blanket provided by the US. All while making fun of US defense policy almost daily.

 

[T.M.P.]

Let crazies take over huge swaths of territories in different areas of the world, and hope that works out?

Yes, Idiot, that's a solid plan.

 

[twenty02]

Yes, Idiot, that's a solid plan.

Well than what? We support places like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for good reason...if those regimes fail (as bad as they are) they'll be replaced by even crazier people with access to nukes and largest reverses of world oil, respectively.

The current situation [our FP] sucks, but seems the best of all bad options, as of today

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Well than what? We support places like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for good reason...if those regimes fail (as bad as they are) they'll be replaced by even crazier people with access to nukes and largest reverses of world oil, respectively.

The current situation [our FP] sucks, but seems the best of all bad options, as of today

We spend the next few decades genuinely committed to alternative energy. Increased drilling and fracking are just stopgaps. We have to get off carbon. Figure out solar. Invest in more wind turbines, in those areas where they are viable. Hell, build more nuclear plants. Whatever it takes to get to the point that we don't need any fossil fuels, anymore. Then we tell that area of the world to go f*** itself.

 

[T.M.P.]

Well than what? We support places like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for good reason...if those regimes fail (as bad as they are) they'll be replaced by even crazier people with access to nukes and largest reverses of world oil, respectively.

The current situation [our FP] sucks, but seems the best of all bad options, as of today

There's no quick fix, it will take generations to wipe out all the ignorance at play but to enter into war is not the answer, unless it's complete and total war, and that isn't an option because it could easily be the destruction of the human race. Winnable war in the era of nukes is strategically obsolete. Plus, it's the final option and a byproduct of failed diplomacy. The diplomats are working for corporate gain, Lawyers, guns and money. This is what ya get when you manipulate a bunch of religious retards for financial gain.

 

[FL33]

Yes, Idiot, that's a solid plan.

That is the right plan, imo. There has to be an equilibrium of power. Then someone in charge. Then the US negotiates with them. Then they control their own...often brutally.

That's realpolitick and makes the human rights crowd shiver, but "democracy" hasn't been the answer. I'm not sure you can force democracy. It may have to occur more organically than we would like.

 

[T.M.P.]

We spend the next few decades genuinely committed to alternative energy. Increased drilling and fracking are just stopgaps. We have to get off carbon. Figure out solar. Invest in more wind turbines, in those areas where they are viable. Hell, build more nuclear plants. Whatever it takes to get to the point that we don't need any fossil fuels, anymore. Then we tell that area of the world to go f*** itself.

Except religion .. Israel is the fly in that ointment.

 

[T.M.P.]

That is the right plan, imo. There has to be an equilibrium of power. Then someone in charge. Then the US negotiates with them. Then they control their own...often brutally.

That's realpolitick and makes the human rights crowd shiver, but "democracy" hasn't been the answer. I'm not sure you can force democracy. It may have to occur more organically than we would like.

Yea, the theory of hearts and minds was originally the hearts and minds of the populace. Your populace, not the enemies. This concept that the foreign lands we enter can be won over in hearts and minds by Americanizing them with Coca Cola, GM, TV's, Disney and other "cool" shit was a poorly conceived bullshit. The only way to win a war is to invade a country, take all their shit, and leave. Or if you stay, rape the female public, until you breed the enemy out. War isn't nice, and nice war can't be won.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Except religion .. Israel is the fly in that ointment.

Obviously, it will never happen, but we need to realize that we are under no obligation to protect Israel. They can take care of themselves. And so long as they seem intent on turning the status quo into a new Apartheid, actively helping them only hurts our standing in the region.

Smart foreign policy is based on what's best for us. Putting Israel's welfare ahead of our own is not smart foreign policy. Someone above mentioned realpolitik. Our stance on Israel is the ultimate anti-realpolitik.

 

[T.M.P.]

That is the right plan, imo. There has to be an equilibrium of power. Then someone in charge. Then the US negotiates with them. Then they control their own...often brutally.

That's realpolitick and makes the human rights crowd shiver, but "democracy" hasn't been the answer. I'm not sure you can force democracy. It may have to occur more organically than we would like.

Except religion. Israel is the fly in that ointment.

 

[toastedbread]

Obviously, it will never happen, but we need to realize that we are under no obligation to protect Israel. They can take care of themselves. And so long as they seem intent on turning the status quo into a new Apartheid, actively helping them only hurts our standing in the region.

Smart foreign policy is based on what's best for us. Putting Israel's welfare ahead of our own is not smart foreign policy. Someone above mentioned realpolitik. Our stance on Israel is the ultimate anti-realpolitik.

ISIS is now taking over the Gaza strip. You prefer that?

 

[toastedbread]

Except religion. Israel is the fly in that ointment.

Israel is irrelevant to this. This originates in Saudi. 99% of it.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

That is the right plan, imo. There has to be an equilibrium of power. Then someone in charge. Then the US negotiates with them. Then they control their own...often brutally.

That's realpolitick and makes the human rights crowd shiver, but "democracy" hasn't been the answer. I'm not sure you can force democracy. It may have to occur more organically than we would like.

Americans have a fetish for so-called democracy and self-government, which blinds us to the uncomfortable truth that it may not be the best form of government in all situations.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Israel is irrelevant to this. This originates in Saudi. 99% of it.

Israel's not irrelevant. The religious roots of radical Islam comes from Saudi Arabia, but the movement wouldn't be nearly as popular without an enemy to galvanize the populace against. The amalgam of US/Israel is that enemy.

 

[FL33]

We spend the next few decades genuinely committed to alternative energy. Increased drilling and fracking are just stopgaps. We have to get off carbon. Figure out solar. Invest in more wind turbines, in those areas where they are viable. Hell, build more nuclear plants. Whatever it takes to get to the point that we don't need any fossil fuels, anymore. Then we tell that area of the world to go f*** itself.

That risks turning the ME into a Africa level economic situation. It is very pro US...pro West. It will be seen as anti-Muslim by the locals (I mean "go f*** [yourself] is understood in any language).

I'm not entirely against it, but thinking you can assimilate a bunch a ME muslims in the west while simultaneously damning their bretheren back home won't go over well. And as TMP notes, Isreal will always be enough of a cause de jour to drive a wedge between the West and the ME (I don't get the sense that Asian muslims care much about Isreal, but maybe so.....so, you could substitute ME for Muslims).

 

[twenty02]

We spend the next few decades genuinely committed to alternative energy. Increased drilling and fracking are just stopgaps. We have to get off carbon. Figure out solar. Invest in more wind turbines, in those areas where they are viable. Hell, build more nuclear plants. Whatever it takes to get to the point that we don't need any fossil fuels, anymore. Then we tell that area of the world to go f*** itself.

Sounds a reasonable plan. I think 30 years or so we can get there. I do believe that a LOT of people high up in the policy aspect of govt, including the DoD would totally agree. As much as mocked, there are very, very smart people that work in many of the defense policy agencies that I do believe see that as our long term objective.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

You haven't called me is


Sounds a reasonable plan. I think 30 years or so we can get there. I do believe that a LOT of people high up in the policy aspect of govt, including the DoD would totally agree. As much as mocked, there are very, very smart people that work in many of the defense policy agencies that I do believe see that as our long term objective.

The DOD has put out reports on things like climate change and carbon fuel, always in terms of the future of national security. Of course, the politicians have always ignored them, preferring to keep the discussions firmly in the realm of meaningless platitudes.

 

[toastedbread]

Israel's not irrelevant. The religious roots of radical Islam comes from Saudi Arabia, but the movement wouldn't be nearly as popular without an enemy to galvanize the populace against. The amalgam of US/Israel is that enemy.

That's mostly a myth and simply untrue. Look at ISIS and how little attention they give Israel... They are primarily concerned with being "Anti-Western". And their major priority is rebuilding their caliph, jihad, and the return to original Islam. Israel isn't a remote factor in any of that. Even on the streets of Tehran Israel is given very little thought or attention. Most people simply don't care.

 

[twenty02]

The DOD has put out reports on things like climate change and carbon fuel, always in terms of the future of national security. Of course, the politicians have always ignored them, preferring to keep the discussions firmly in the realm of meaningless platitudes.

The politicians have a lot less control of policy than the bureaucracy/executive branch does. That's one thing I've learned very well in 10+ years working in the machine. At the end of the day, the DOD gets it's top line number and then has massive discretion in how it's spent. The NDAA is supposed to set policy, as directed by Congress, but outside of a few hot button items (a weapons system, Iranian policy) Congress just gives the DOD the checkbook.

 

[twenty02]

There's no quick fix, it will take generations to wipe out all the ignorance at play but to enter into war is not the answer, unless it's complete and total war, and that isn't an option because it could easily be the destruction of the human race. Winnable war in the era of nukes is strategically obsolete. Plus, it's the final option and a byproduct of failed diplomacy. The diplomats are working for corporate gain, Lawyers, guns and money. This is what ya get when you manipulate a bunch of religious retards for financial gain.

Something like Syria, is really a proxy war between little brothers Turkey/Saudi vs Iran. Assad/Rebels/ISIS, etc...are just the puppets, because they are all too weak to really do anything without outside help. The big brothers are obviously Russia and the US.

I guess we could just let them keep playing war in the sandbox for years. Clearly the combination of refugees in Europe, Russian airline blown up in Sinai, and Paris attacks have pushed things to the point that the big brothers aren't going to let it go on too much longer.

 

[toastedbread]

Something like Syria, is really a proxy war between little brothers Turkey/Saudi vs Iran. Assad/Rebels/ISIS, etc...are just the puppets, because they are all too weak to really do anything without outside help. The big brothers are obviously Russia and the US.

I guess we could just let them keep playing war in the sandbox for years. Clearly the combination of refugees in Europe, Russian airline blown up in Sinai, and Paris attacks have pushed things to the point that the big brothers aren't going to let it go on too much longer.

ISIS is a Saudi created monster. All of these radicalized Islamic groups are Saudi created. Until we deal with the elephant in the room, nothing will change.

 

[T.M.P.]

ISIS is a Saudi created monster. All of these radicalized Islamic groups are Saudi created. Until we deal with the elephant in the room, nothing will change.

Always follow the money.

 

[twenty02]

ISIS is a Saudi created monster. All of these radicalized Islamic groups are Saudi created. Until we deal with the elephant in the room, nothing will change.

True. Of course, Syria's dysfunctional society is a French creation, if you really want to go back in history. The French were by far the worst of the colonial powers...based upon the mess they left everywhere they were.

 

[toastedbread]

Always follow the money.

Btw, there is a myth that Saudi is some poor country. Your average Saudi is doing quite well. Their GDP per cap is over $20k per year. The only Saudis who are disadvantaged are Shiites!

Also, somehow Saudi has time to fight the Houthis in Yemen who are against ISIS, yet they are doing nothing to combat ISIS in Syria. They are disgusting pigs. Off with the kings head and castrate him. And just drop a nuke on that god awful piece of shit country where women are treated worse than dogs.

 

[twenty02]

Btw, there is a myth that Saudi is some poor country. Your average Saudi is doing quite well. Their GDP per cap is over $20k per year. The only Saudis who are disadvantaged are Shiites!

Also, somehow Saudi has time to fight the Houthis in Yemen who are against ISIS, yet they are doing nothing to combat ISIS in Syria. They are disgusting pigs. Off with the kings head and castrate him. And just drop a nuke on that god awful piece of shit country where women are treated worse than dogs.

I'd rather be a Kuwaiti. Every citizen just gets paid for being alive. And a free house and massive wedding $$.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

True. Of course, Syria's dysfunctional society is a French creation, if you really want to go back in history. The French were by far the worst of the colonial powers...based upon the mess they left everywhere they were.

"Oh, good, they forgot about me."

-Belgium

 

[twenty02]

"Oh, good, they forgot about me."

-Belgium

LOL...Belgium doesn't count. Ever.

 

[FL33]

Americans have a fetish for so-called democracy and self-government, which blinds us to the uncomfortable truth that it may not be the best form of government in all situations.

It's not without it's merits, but representative government is about 2500 years old and has been historically mainly confined to the West. And over that time span ot has had some serious ebbs and flows. Trying to come up with some metric to measure it's viability has been in vogue with social scientists for at least 30 years, and yet we have very little.

I like it, but that sentiment is somewhat relative. Just like more primitive societies like the Amish score high those hapiness polls , there may be citizens of more authoritarian regimes out there who rate their quality of government much higher. Democracy just may not work for everyone...hell, even Plato wanted a philosopher king.

 

[twenty02]

It's not without it's merits, but representative government is about 2500 years old and has been historically mainly confined to the West. And over that time span ot has had some serious ebbs and flows. Trying to come up with some metric to measure it's viability has been in vogue with social scientists for at least 30 years, and yet we have very little.

I like it, but that sentiment is somewhat relative. Just like more primitive societies like the Amish score high those hapiness polls , there may be citizens of more authoritarian regimes out there who rate their quality of government much higher. Democracy just may not work for everyone...hell, even Plato wanted a philosopher king.

Governance is the result of culture, not the other way around. America was founded by very rugged, likely extremist level, individualists. That evolved into the govt that we have today. Europe got there as well, to some extent, but only through often bloody rebellions. We have to face facts that these other parts of the world are well behind us, in a cultural evolutionary way.

150 years ago it wouldn't have mattered, nor would we have cared. They couldn't threaten us in any way, physically or ideologically. Much different than the extremely integrated globe of today.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

You kids

 

[burnthemallralphie]

You kids

Got anything substantive to add? At least throw in some "this thread sucks" memes.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Assault weapons are banned in California.

It boggles the mind why a psychopath murderer wouldn't pay a little more attention to the laws.

Cause it's so hard to transport across state lines. State laws mean nothing. It needs to be national, and I'd think that's pretty obvious. Isn't going to get rid of all of them, but it's a start. He had all that LEGALLY!

 

[zeke4ahs]

Someone that is willing to kill a dozen people isn't going to be stopped because it is illegal to possess an assault weapon or even 100 rounds of ammunition. A gun isn't going to disappear because a law makes it illegal. We better have another plan after we make them illegal.

Again. So we give up, there's nothing we can do. It's not going to help all of them. It will help some. Every freaking country in the world can figure this out, but the good old US of A.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Why were those done? Why did the fellow in New Orleans shoot up a bunch of people last week? They were crazy people right? There is a huge difference in individual crazy people shooting others and a well funded ideology that wants to kill people because they exist. Muslim terrorists want to kill us not because of something we did, but who we are. We are not muslim. This is what is missing from people's understanding. We can't appease people who are trying to wipe us out because of who we are. They are at war with us. This couple was part of this war. Do you see the difference?

He was a terrorist also. Just a different religion ( and color).

 

[zeke4ahs]

Lanza was a mentally ill individual. I thought that was pretty well documented. And shot up a school he attended.

McViegh was an anti govt anarchist.....that's why he attacked a federal govt building. Which was over 20 years ago.

Neither are relevant to the motives in this case, but I realize you are just in CYA mode for your original moronic post.

I guess you are offended for calling out crazy ass muslims....as crazy ass muslims. People using religion to kill people. Not really aware of too many, of any other religion, which use their religion as justification for killing total randoms consistently. Maybe you know of some.

Sure do. It happened all of last week at the Planned Parenthood Clinic. Have we moved on from that one we've forgotten it already?

 

[largemouth]

This is a source of frustration for me: people complaining about Muslims attacking the US yet supporting a foreign policy that absolutely guarantees there will be more Muslims that want to kill Americans.

Idiotic.

Maybe if we quit bombing the **** out of the middle East, some of this would stop. Maybe if we stopped trying to control governments in the middle East, some of this would stop.

 

[UTFO]

The main problem is all parties believe they have the moral high ground when none of them do, thus making peace impossible.

After all, they're all looking out for their interests ($, power, control, theocracy, alliances) and we're seeing now just how interwoven and conflicting these interests are.

To think there is a supreme being overseeing all of this is a terrifying thought. Thankfully, there most likely isn't one....and this is all a product of human disharmony and not the master plan of some disgustingly violent Caligula up in the heavens who is at best indifferent to human suffering.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Got anything substantive to add? At least throw in some "this thread sucks" memes.