Holy heck....

[zeke4ahs]

if you want to check out some of the IU Neanderthals, go to the premie football board and read the locked thread about Morgan Ellison and his rape allegations. It appears IU could be in some trouble if they counseled the woman not to go to the police, to just let IU handle it. Not sure if that is the case, but that is some speculation. I’ll see if I can find some links.

 

[zeke4ahs]

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...ed-sexual-assault-survivor-speaks/1616527002/
This is some sickening stuff. Not sure why Allen let him keep practicing with the team.

 

[stollcpa]

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...ed-sexual-assault-survivor-speaks/1616527002/
This is some sickening stuff. Not sure why Allen let him keep practicing with the team.

If this is as it appears in story, I don’t get why Allen or IU Athletic Department allowed him to practice. Why aren’t police involved?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

if you want to check out some of the IU Neanderthals, go to the premie football board and read the locked thread about Morgan Ellison and his rape allegations. It appears IU could be in some trouble if they counseled the woman not to go to the police, to just let IU handle it. Not sure if that is the case, but that is some speculation. I’ll see if I can find some links.

Some of them wanted to hold IU to a different standard. Some of them just wanted to bitch about women and liberals. #LEO

 

[Daydreamer]

if you want to check out some of the IU Neanderthals, go to the premie football board and read the locked thread about Morgan Ellison and his rape allegations. It appears IU could be in some trouble if they counseled the woman not to go to the police, to just let IU handle it. Not sure if that is the case, but that is some speculation. I’ll see if I can find some links.

To be fair, it’s only a couple of them. I don’t think their reasoning is right but it’s better to engage and try to change their thinking than to brand them as evil.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

To be fair, it’s only a couple of them. I don’t think their reasoning is right but it’s better to engage and try to change their thinking than to brand them as evil.

Your naivete is impressive. You should spend a little more time over here on the Cooler you banished the discussion to, and you might not have such an optimistic opinion of these folks.

 

[Daydreamer]

If this is as it appears in story, I don’t get why Allen or IU Athletic Department allowed him to practice. Why aren’t police involved?

The victim apparently hasn’t asked for the police to be involved. I can’t say why he was allowed to practice but keeping under a close watch may have been deemed preferable until a verdict was given.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The victim apparently hasn’t asked for the police to be involved. I can’t say why he was allowed to practice but keeping under a close watch may have been deemed preferable until a verdict was given.

This might sound cynical, but I would suggest the reason he was allowed to practice was because the coaches wanted him to be game-ready if it turned out the accusation was bunk or otherwise blew over without serious punishment. I mean, that's just smart business.

 

[Daydreamer]

Your naivete is impressive. You should spend a little more time over here on the Cooler you banished the discussion to, and you might not have such an optimistic opinion of these folks.

I’m not naive. I get frustrated with things like anyone else. I just prefer to let my better angels lead.

 

[stollcpa]

Your naivete is impressive. You should spend a little more time over here on the Cooler you banished the discussion to, and you might not have such an optimistic opinion of these folks.

Lol. @Daydreamer this guy should look in the mirror before opining on others.

 

[Daydreamer]

This might sound cynical, but I would suggest the reason he was allowed to practice was because the coaches wanted him to be game-ready if it turned out the accusation was bunk or otherwise blew over without serious punishment. I mean, that's just smart business.

That too.

 

[stollcpa]

The victim apparently hasn’t asked for the police to be involved. I can’t say why he was allowed to practice but keeping under a close watch may have been deemed preferable until a verdict was given.

Something don’t quite add up. As it appears right now I am disappointed in Allen and IU.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I’m not naive. I get frustrated with things like anyone else. I just prefer to let my better angels lead.

The better angels have flown the coop in these parts, friend.

 

[Daydreamer]

Something don’t quite add up. As it appears right now I am disappointed in Allen and IU.

Seems to me that Allen and IU played the hand they were dealt as best they could. The situation sucks but the actions of other people are really to blame.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Seems to me that Allen and IU played the hand they were dealt as best they could. The situation sucks but the actions of other people are really to blame.

I have no problem with how Allen handled it. I agree with Zeke, however, that the way certain fans are responding is pretty disgusting.

 

[Daydreamer]

I have no problem with how Allen handled it. I agree with Zeke, however, that the way certain fans are responding is pretty disgusting.

Oh, I don’t disagree about the attitudes of those few. I just choose to hang on to reason and persuasion as a response.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Oh, I don’t disagree about the attitudes of those few. I just choose to hang on to reason and persuasion as a response.

A noble response. My experience tells me it's mostly hopeless, but noble nonetheless.

 

[Daydreamer]

A noble response. My experience tells me it's mostly hopeless, but noble nonetheless.

Thanks. Life sucks without optimism.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Thanks. Life sucks without optimism.

I have optimism about a lot of things. Just not people.

 

[IUCrazy2]

The young lady is more important then the football team. I am not a fan of the Universities adjudicating this stuff at all. From all appearances the kid committed a crime and I believe it should be incumbent upon the University to report this to the police and let them handle it. And if at the end of that investigation they still feel that the student should be removed from campus, that is the prerogative of the school.

The police should have absolutely been involved in this from day one.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The young lady is more important then the football team. I am not a fan of the Universities adjudicating this stuff at all. From all appearances the kid committed a crime and I believe it should be incumbent upon the University to report this to the police and let them handle it. And if at the end of that investigation they still feel that the student should be removed from campus, that is the prerogative of the school.

The police should have absolutely been involved in this from day one.

I had an encounter with the university discipline process at IUB. Without sharing too many details, my roommate improperly appropriated some really minor university property and used it as an ashtray. The janitor saw it. Really minor stuff, but I got hauled in as an accomplice because I didn't rat him out.

I was exonerated by a vote of 2-1. The student advocate and the independent third said I did nothing wrong, but the university advocate claimed I violated the student code simply through my silence. Even though nothing happened to me, that left a bitter taste in my mouth regarding the whole process. I don't know what lesson this guy thought he was teaching me, but from my end, it boiled down to "You are guilty simply because you didn't turn in your own roommate."

 

[IUCrazy2]

I had an encounter with the university discipline process at IUB. Without sharing too many details, my roommate improperly appropriated some really minor university property and used it as an ashtray. The janitor saw it. Really minor stuff, but I got hauled in as an accomplice because I didn't rat him out.

I was exonerated by a vote of 2-1. The student advocate and the independent third said I did nothing wrong, but the university advocate claimed I violated the student code simply through my silence. Even though nothing happened to me, that left a bitter taste in my mouth regarding the whole process. I don't know what lesson this guy thought he was teaching me, but from my end, it boiled down to "You are guilty simply because you didn't turn in your own roommate."

Yeah I had a brush with jboard Freshman year...apparently drinking in the dorm with your roommate and girlfriends is frowned upon. Who knew?

I don't mind it so much on that small stuff like we were involved in but for something like rape? Man, you need the authorities for that.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yeah I had a brush with jboard Freshman year...apparently drinking in the dorm with your roommate and girlfriends is frowned upon. Who knew?

I don't mind it so much on that small stuff like we were involved in but for something like rape? Man, you need the authorities for that.

That might be ideal, but it's important to remember two points:

1. As Zeke correctly has pointed out numerous times, there are very valid reasons why the victim might not want to go through the criminal justice process.

2. You don't have to be a university employee to treat star athletes differently. Not dogging them specifically, but I have no reason to assume the B-Town police would have handled this without any bias.

 

[IUCrazy2]

That might be ideal, but it's important to remember two points:

1. As Zeke correctly has pointed out numerous times, there are very valid reasons why the victim might not want to go through the criminal justice process.

2. You don't have to be a university employee to treat star athletes differently. Not dogging them specifically, but I have no reason to assume the B-Town police would have handled this without any bias.

I can understand why the girl would not...then again, after she has reported would the University have a reason to report. I understand the sensitivities in this but I think it is more fair to both the accuser and the accused to put this more in the hands of professionals than a University panel. If the guy happened to be innocent, his reputation is toast and he has no way to recover his reputation now. If he is guilty you do not want him at another school with the ability to do this to another girl.

 

[mohoosier]

I have optimism about a lot of things. Just not people.

Yet you bash everyone who is optimistic

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I can understand why the girl would not...then again, after she has reported would the University have a reason to report. I understand the sensitivities in this but I think it is more fair to both the accuser and the accused to put this more in the hands of professionals than a University panel. If the guy happened to be innocent, his reputation is toast and he has no way to recover his reputation now. If he is guilty you do not want him at another school with the ability to do this to another girl.

There are certainly a lot of various ways to look at it. But there is also a #3 I didn't think to mention, but is worth remembering:

3. For various good reasons, it's perfectly possible for criminals to get away with it. Our system demands that criminal punishment come only with nearly irrefutable proof, and even though we don't always live up to that aspiration, that's a very laudable aspiration to have. As Blackstone famously said, it is better than ten guilty escape than one innocent suffer. But when it comes to things like employment, schooling, etc., yes, punishment there also has real consequences, but it's not nearly on the level of a criminal conviction. So it makes sense that a university investigation might be appropriate in cases where there is evidence of wrongdoing, but not enough evidence to secure a criminal conviction.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

There are certainly a lot of various ways to look at it. But there is also a #3 I didn't think to mention, but is worth remembering:

3. For various good reasons, it's perfectly possible for criminals to get away with it. Our system demands that criminal punishment come only with nearly irrefutable proof, and even though we don't always live up to that aspiration, that's a very laudable aspiration to have. As Blackstone famously said, it is better than ten guilty escape than one innocent suffer. But when it comes to things like employment, schooling, etc., yes, punishment there also has real consequences, but it's not nearly on the level of a criminal conviction. So it makes sense that a university investigation might be appropriate in cases where there is evidence of wrongdoing, but not enough evidence to secure a criminal conviction.

A classic example, a lot of people get fired for theft. The company never goes to the police, just fires the person. I suspect the same happens for other crimes as well. A buddy went to work for Perot right out of college, Perot had a rule that being arrested for DUI was cause. Not a conviction, just arrest. We don't require criminal standards very often.

But maybe the case should be kept quiet. "Player dismissed for violation of university rules". But given laws on university openness on crime, maybe it is not possible. Plus, to enforce a ban on someone from stepping on campus, it certainly requires some knowing that is part of the sanction. At that point it is obvious this is more than unpaid parking tickets.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

lots of posts from people quite confident of their position on this and the fball board, when to my knowledge, none of us know what happened.

reality is, you can't take the complainant at their word without being unfair to the defendant. and you can't put a total burden of proof on the complainant, when actual proof is difficult to near impossible, without being unfair to her.

who's side to error on and who bears the burden of proof, is a subjective and imperfect debate in of itself, with often no clear answer..


that said, i'm still unsure exactly what she is accusing him of, as the story didn't get specific on that.

we can presume what she's indicating happened, but we don't even know that for sure from the article.

either side who is so sure of themselves, shouldn't be.

thinking there is a perfect or fair way to resolve this, absent more data, is faulty reasoning.

sometimes there is no "fair" way to handle things, which puts the presiding entity in an impossible situation.

all that said, innocent till proven guilty seems the better default position, when all you have is one person's word against another..

 

[stollcpa]

I took it as a compliment.

I need your calmness. Just tired of people like Goat pontificating. Failures at life telling other people how to think and how much better they are than you.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I had an encounter with the university discipline process at IUB. Without sharing too many details, my roommate improperly appropriated some really minor university property and used it as an ashtray. The janitor saw it. Really minor stuff, but I got hauled in as an accomplice because I didn't rat him out.

I was exonerated by a vote of 2-1. The student advocate and the independent third said I did nothing wrong, but the university advocate claimed I violated the student code simply through my silence. Even though nothing happened to me, that left a bitter taste in my mouth regarding the whole process. I don't know what lesson this guy thought he was teaching me, but from my end, it boiled down to "You are guilty simply because you didn't turn in your own roommate."

You would have been rightly punished at one of the military academies. Probably some marching on the grinder and/or some demerits. Here's the US Military Academy's code:

A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.​

The USNA and Air Force have similar codes, as do all the services' ROTC units. Obviously, straight civilian students at most universities aren't subject to the same standards.

 

[stollcpa]

I had an encounter with the university discipline process at IUB. Without sharing too many details, my roommate improperly appropriated some really minor university property and used it as an ashtray. The janitor saw it. Really minor stuff, but I got hauled in as an accomplice because I didn't rat him out.

I was exonerated by a vote of 2-1. The student advocate and the independent third said I did nothing wrong, but the university advocate claimed I violated the student code simply through my silence. Even though nothing happened to me, that left a bitter taste in my mouth regarding the whole process. I don't know what lesson this guy thought he was teaching me, but from my end, it boiled down to "You are guilty simply because you didn't turn in your own roommate."

You did do something wrong.

 

[Thyrsis]

To be fair, it’s only a couple of them. I don’t think their reasoning is right but it’s better to engage and try to change their thinking than to brand them as evil.

For what it's worth, while this is a terrible story, if folks would read and think about the processes, it would be an informative, useful and meaningful contribution to a better appreciation of civics: differing (and sometimes overlapping and sometimes maybe conflicting and sometimes wholly separate) jurisdictions, roles, obligations, powers, limitations, standards, reach, and consequence.

Asking things like "why aren't the police involved?" might be easily answered with a better understanding of basic civics that we should all have in our heads.

That lack of understanding is consistent with our banana politics.

 

[stollcpa]

Asking things like "why aren't the police involved?" might be easily answered with a better understanding of basic civics that we should all have in our heads.

That lack of understanding is consistent with our banana politics.

If a crime of rape is reported publicly in a news article, police and the prosecutor shouldn’t consider getting involved and at least investigating?

 

[iu_a_att]

There are certainly a lot of various ways to look at it. But there is also a #3 I didn't think to mention, but is worth remembering:

3. For various good reasons, it's perfectly possible for criminals to get away with it. Our system demands that criminal punishment come only with nearly irrefutable proof, and even though we don't always live up to that aspiration, that's a very laudable aspiration to have. As Blackstone famously said, it is better than ten guilty escape than one innocent suffer. But when it comes to things like employment, schooling, etc., yes, punishment there also has real consequences, but it's not nearly on the level of a criminal conviction. So it makes sense that a university investigation might be appropriate in cases where there is evidence of wrongdoing, but not enough evidence to secure a criminal conviction.

An honest question for you. Doesn't the same standard of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt apply in any criminal proceeding independent of the magnitude of the criminal charges and potential penalties? At least in theory. That is, the evidence must be just as irrefutable to convict someone of a charge that carries only a small fine as it is to convict someone on a charge that brings a prison sentence. The standard to convict may be lower in civil cases even though the actual penalty in the civil case is much higher than in the criminal case.

I ask this question because we hear the argument that is, essentially, different levels of penalty should allow for different standards of reasonable doubt.

I wonder if the real motivator for different standards of reasonable doubt is that criminal prosecutions are always acts of the state. The state should not be able to punish you unless it can establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Private parties are not required to use that standard.

 

[iu_a_att]

You would have been rightly punished at one of the military academies. Probably some marching on the grinder and/or some demerits. Here's the US Military Academy's code:

A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.​

The USNA and Air Force have similar codes, as do all the services' ROTC units. Obviously, straight civilian students at most universities aren't subject to the same standards.

Honor codes vary as does enforcement but I think most honor codes at universities require reporting honor code offenses. This requirement strikes me as similar in spirit to a Good Samaritan law. It is interesting that U.S. Law generally doesn't impose such a requirement.
https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/...ing-ignoring-falsely-reporting-and-lying.html

 

[hoosboot]

I need your calmness. Just tired of people like Goat pontificating. Failures at life telling other people how to think and how much better they are than you.

Your last several posts are impressive in their lack of self-awareness.

 

[IUCrazy2]

For what it's worth, while this is a terrible story, if folks would read and think about the processes, it would be an informative, useful and meaningful contribution to a better appreciation of civics: differing (and sometimes overlapping and sometimes maybe conflicting and sometimes wholly separate) jurisdictions, roles, obligations, powers, limitations, standards, reach, and consequence.

Asking things like "why aren't the police involved?" might be easily answered with a better understanding of basic civics that we should all have in our heads.

That lack of understanding is consistent with our banana politics.

I know why the police are not involved and I understand how Title IX has inserted itself into this process. However, I believe we draw a line that says these crimes are capable of being dealt with by a University, a business, etc. while these other crimes are so heinous, we need the actual weight of government involved. Marvin mentioned petty theft from a business and they just fire the person. Ok, that makes sense. What also makes sense is that homicide is most definitely on the "report to the authorities side". I think rape would fall more on the murder side (a crime so heinous that a University is not really equipped to handle it) than it would a situation like Goat or I had at IU (petty theft/vandalism and whether one reported their roommate and underage drinking).

I am not arguing from a point of why is the University doing this, I know why they are involved. My question is more along the lines of should they be the ones handling this. I do not think they should.

 

[Thyrsis]

I know why the police are not involved and I understand how Title IX has inserted itself into this process. However, I believe we draw a line that says these crimes are capable of being dealt with by a University, a business, etc. while these other crimes are so heinous, we need the actual weight of government involved. Marvin mentioned petty theft from a business and they just fire the person. Ok, that makes sense. What also makes sense is that homicide is most definitely on the "report to the authorities side". I think rape would fall more on the murder side (a crime so heinous that a University is not really equipped to handle it) than it would a situation like Goat or I had at IU (petty theft/vandalism and whether one reported their roommate and underage drinking).

I am not arguing from a point of why is the University doing this, I know why they are involved. My question is more along the lines of should they be the ones handling this. I do not think they should.

One student is accused of assaulting another student. The university has a code of conduct to regulate, among other things, student safety. I don’t know how you could conclude the university has no role to play here in regulating student affairs.

Here a pretty obvious conclusion (the perp is no longer allowed on campus) has been reached.

I won’t weigh in on the decision otherwise, but this seems pretty unremarkable.

 

[stollcpa]

Your last several posts are impressive in their lack of self-awareness.

Thank you for the observation. How about letting the greatest of all time respond for himself? Maybe he’s working?

 

[UncleMark]

If this guy wasn't a star football player, people wouldn't be so opinionated about his "right to do process" and the "fairness" of the system and all that shit. They'd be wanting to Lock Him Up!