Holtmann and O$U....

[IUgradman]

....are taking #1 Sparty to the woodshed, up by over 20 as of this writing. I know people make excuses for the disparity in results between Archie and Holtmann’s first seasons but it is worth comparing the two. I just hope Glass didn’t screw up yet ANOTHER hire.

 

[IndianaHoops]

Sigh......

How was Mike Davis’s first 2 years? How about Webber? Were they the answer?

Holtmann is running the exact same system Matta ran with a bunch of junior and seniors that have been in the system for years.

And just like Miller, you must give them at least 2 or 3 seasons.

Let’s see what Holtmann does with the talent he is bringing in.

 

[minneman]

I guess between you and the few other guys that have a hard on to fire Glass we're going to get posts every time IU's basketball teams lose, the football team loses, the volleyball team loses, or even when other coaches that you'd have rather had gets a nice win. I think there isn't any hire you wouldn't second guess.

 

[BigNutsIUFan]

Sigh......

How was Mike Davis’s first 2 years? How about Webber? Were they the answer?

Holtmann is running the exact same system Matta ran with a bunch of junior and seniors that have been in the system for years.

I hope you are right. I see both Holtman and Miller being solid for many years. Holtman has a head start on him for sure

 

[UncleMark]

Fire IZZO!!!

 

[IndianaHoops]

I hope you are right. I see both Holtman and Miller being solid for many years. Holtman has a head start on him for sure

I think OSU made a big mistake firing Matta....

 

[Pu71indy]

Sigh......

How was Mike Davis’s first 2 years? How about Webber? Were they the answer?

Holtmann is running the exact same system Matta ran with a bunch of junior and seniors that have been in the system for years.

And just like Miller, you must give them at least 2 or 3 seasons.

Let’s see what Holtmann does with the talent he is bringing in.

Not the same system. Holtman has beaten two no 1 teams the last 2 years.

 

[T.M.P.]

....are taking #1 Sparty to the woodshed, up by over 20 as of this writing. I know people make excuses for the disparity in results between Archie and Holtmann’s first seasons but it is worth comparing the two. I just hope Glass didn’t screw up yet ANOTHER hire.

You get that Holtman and Matta basically run the same offensive and defensive system, while Crean and Miller were/are polar opposites? Right? Or are you going tho say that excuse doesn't matter?

 

[BigNutsIUFan]

I think OSU made a big mistake firing Matta....

Really? Marta was done. There were a lot of Buckeye fans that wanted Archie as their coach and were butthurt about it. Wonder if they still feel that way

 

[T.M.P.]

Not the same system. Holtman has beaten two no 1 teams the last 2 years.

What's the differences?

 

[IndianaHoops]

Not the same system. Holtman has beaten two no 1 teams the last 2 years.

It’s the EXACT same system.

Do you know where Matta came from? Do you know where Holtmann came from?

 

[IndianaHoops]

Really? Marta was done. There were a lot of Buckeye fans that wanted Archie as their coach and were butthurt about it. Wonder if they still feel that way

They will when Matta’s players are gone... .

 

[Pu71indy]

It’s the EXACT same system.

Do you know where Matta came from? Do you know where Holtmann came from?

Matta was way before Holtman.
Holtman defense is better and he runs some motion.

 

[IndianaHoops]

Matta was way before Holtman.
Holtman defense is better and he runs some motion.

What exactly is the difference between the systems?

And this may shock you, but Matta ran motion and sets.....I know, crazy right?

 

[IU? I'm Fine]

....are taking #1 Sparty to the woodshed, up by over 20 as of this writing. I know people make excuses for the disparity in results between Archie and Holtmann’s first seasons but it is worth comparing the two. I just hope Glass didn’t screw up yet ANOTHER hire.

I doubt seriously that you hope Glass didn't screw up. Otherwise, why state things the way you do?

 

[HoosierJimbo89]

....are taking #1 Sparty to the woodshed, up by over 20 as of this writing. I know people make excuses for the disparity in results between Archie and Holtmann’s first seasons but it is worth comparing the two. I just hope Glass didn’t screw up yet ANOTHER hire.

Jesus H. Christ. Remember Randy Ayers? We give Crean 9 f'ing years and people are already skeptical about Archie after half a year? We have to be smarter as a fan base than this.

 

[T.M.P.]

It’s the EXACT same system.

Do you know where Matta came from? Do you know where Holtmann came from?

Not exact, no two coaches are exact, but there sure in the hell is a slot of similarities.

The difference in Crean to Miller are like night and day. Even how and where we attack the rim on the dribble is different. Where, when and how we take jumpers is different. Where our upperclassmen are still thinking, and learning, their upperclassman are reacting based on habit...

 

[IndianaHoops]

Not exact, no two coaches are exact, but there sure in the hell is a slot of similarities.

The difference in Crean to Miller are like night and day. Even how and where we attack the rim on the dribble is different. Where, when and how we take jumpers is different. Where our upperclassmen are still thinking, and learning, their upperclassman are reacting based on habit...

You are right.....

Should be the difference between Matta/Holtmann is nothing compared to Crean/Miller.

 

[T.M.P.]

Matta was way before Holtman.
Holtman defense is better and he runs some motion.

lol .....

So you have no idea ...

Here's something to ponder.... from the Indy Star .. maybe you'll listen to them.

"Coach Chris Holtmann unashamedly has borrowed on Butler traditions developed by Stevens, who in turn built on the legacies of Todd Lickliter, Thad Matta and Barry Collier."

Without going into details which will eventually get you and I lost, they run many of the same sets, run practice in a similar manner, use some of the same practice drills, and have the same fundamental philosophy on offense and defense.

And Miller is far closer to them in coaching philosophy than Crean, who ran a bunch of weird gimmicks in an attempt to reimagine basketball in his incompatent Orange tinted image..

My god, Crean had Davis doing guard drills last year .. because he had all his players do guard drills and he was just a freaking weirdo .

 

[SIhoosier26]

We will be just fine going forward once Archie get his players and so far Archie has completely outrecruited him.

 

[IUgradman]

Excuses. The fact remains Holtmann is kicking butt after taking over a 17-15 team. Maybe Archie will surpass him but no one knows at this point.

 

[HoosierJimbo89]

Excuses. The fact remains Holtmann is kicking butt after taking over a 17-15 team. Maybe Archie will surpass him but no one knows at this point.

What banners and hardware do they pass out for a coach comparison after half a year? Let's see how things play out.

 

[klize17]

....are taking #1 Sparty to the woodshed, up by over 20 as of this writing. I know people make excuses for the disparity in results between Archie and Holtmann’s first seasons but it is worth comparing the two. I just hope Glass didn’t screw up yet ANOTHER hire.

You need to get a life. Every forum I read you babble the same horseshit

 

[NEOhio]

I think OSU made a big mistake firing Matta....

Matta was a good man and a good coach. But he had lost control of his program. His players had gotten into some lazy habits and some were divas who were difficult to coach (JaQuan Lyle, D'Angelo Russell). Matta's health problems also became too difficult for him to continue the grind of coaching. I like where Holtmann is taking the program. They needed a new voice and new leadership..

 

[Bobbyforever]

Sigh......

How was Mike Davis’s first 2 years? How about Webber? Were they the answer?

Holtmann is running the exact same system Matta ran with a bunch of junior and seniors that have been in the system for years.

And just like Miller, you must give them at least 2 or 3 seasons.

Let’s see what Holtmann does with the talent he is bringing in.

That sounds like Holtzman is running a style that fits his players. Is Archie not doing the same? If not why not?

 

[IUXC68]

That sounds like Holtzman is running a style that fits his players. Is Archie not doing the same? If not why not?

Who is Holtzman? Lou's son?

 

[jet812]

That sounds like Holtzman is running a style that fits his players. Is Archie not doing the same? If not why not?

Because some of the players will be there for 4 more years. Anyone with 1/2 a brain knew we weren’t going to be good this year, so should the coach sacrifice the future or diminish teaching his long term system so the team can go from terrible to not very good? Should he abandon his system in favor of one that suits the players that are either only here for a year or aren’t going to be effective in his system moving forward? That’s short sided & dumb.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

....are taking #1 Sparty to the woodshed, up by over 20 as of this writing. I know people make excuses for the disparity in results between Archie and Holtmann’s first seasons but it is worth comparing the two. I just hope Glass didn’t screw up yet ANOTHER hire.

"Yet ANOTHER"? Who would the others be? Wilson? Perhaps. That would be it.

You started a f'ing thread to take the same old tired unsubstantiated shot at Glass.

Pull up Ace.

 

[Stuffshot]

Someone should smash your fingers with a hammer until you can no longer type.

Uh, wouldn’t he still be able to dictate to Siri?

 

[TheSpecialK]

Chris Holtmann and Thad Matta most certainly do not run the same offense. They both coached at Butler, which means nothing, but they come from different backgrounds and learned from entirely different people.

They both run 4-out, 1-in sets. That much is true. The concepts of spacing are similar. However, their actual plays and motion is a lot different.

Matta's offenses ran a lot of ISO and ball screens. They wanted to get defenses to switch to create matchup problems off the ball screens. If they had the ball in the post, they wanted to either force a double or kick it back out to a shooter. They would often overload one side of the floor with the best shooter and post player to keep teams from doubling.

Again, while Holtmann does run the 4-out, 1-in also, his offense is A TON more predicated on off-ball movement. They run more screening away from the ball and move guys around on the floor a lot more. See how they used Bates-Diop today... he caught the ball in a lot of different spots on the floor and a lot of different sets. Holtmann's offense has more of a 'motion' feel to it as they work the ball from side to side more. The inside-out stuff is something both Matta and Holtmann did, but Holtmann's offense is a lot more motion-based. Matta's was dribble-drive based.

It's not the same offense. Period. Some concepts are similar, but it's not the same.

 

[fkfootball]

Holtman is a very good coach. And he may very well be better than Archie. Who knows? Crean looked like a superstar in the making his 1st 4 years at Marquette. I'm happy with the coach that we hired and I'll stick with him.

 

[fkfootball]

Matta and Holtman play more similar than Crean and Miller do.

 

[IndianaHoops]

Chris Holtmann and Thad Matta most certainly do not run the same offense. They both coached at Butler, which means nothing, but they come from different backgrounds and learned from entirely different people.

They both run 4-out, 1-in sets. That much is true. The concepts of spacing are similar. However, their actual plays and motion is a lot different.

Matta's offenses ran a lot of ISO and ball screens. They wanted to get defenses to switch to create matchup problems off the ball screens. If they had the ball in the post, they wanted to either force a double or kick it back out to a shooter. They would often overload one side of the floor with the best shooter and post player to keep teams from doubling.

Again, while Holtmann does run the 4-out, 1-in also, his offense is A TON more predicated on off-ball movement. They run more screening away from the ball and move guys around on the floor a lot more. See how they used Bates-Diop today... he caught the ball in a lot of different spots on the floor and a lot of different sets. Holtmann's offense has more of a 'motion' feel to it as they work the ball from side to side more. The inside-out stuff is something both Matta and Holtmann did, but Holtmann's offense is a lot more motion-based. Matta's was dribble-drive based.

It's not the same offense. Period. Some concepts are similar, but it's not the same.

Now compare Crean vs Miller.

Matta’s players played in a similar system to what Holtmann runs. And both are very similar on the defensive end.

 

[IndianaHoops]

That sounds like Holtzman is running a style that fits his players. Is Archie not doing the same? If not why not?

Because they aren’t his players?

 

[TheSpecialK]

Now compare Crean vs Miller.

Matta’s players played in a similar system to what Holtmann runs. And both are very similar on the defensive end.

I'm not taking a stance on Miller/Crean. Point is, to just pass it off like Holtmann doesn't deserve much credit because 'he and Matta run the same offense' is a bit lazy and factually incorrect. It's not the same offense.

I don't think it's fair to be comparing Miller and Holtmann until at least year two or year three, especially long-term, but all I'm saying is what Holtmann is doing at Ohio State right now is impressive coaching. It's not the same offense. Players had to learn a new system. And he's taken guys who were sloppy and had bad habits and turned them around in a short time. I don't wish to criticize Miller. I do think it's utterly unfair (and wrong) to diminish what Holtmann is doing.

 

[IndianaHoops]

I'm not taking a stance on Miller/Crean. Point is, to just pass it off like Holtmann doesn't deserve much credit because 'he and Matta run the same offense' is a bit lazy and factually incorrect. It's not the same offense.

I don't think it's fair to be comparing Miller and Holtmann until at least year two or year three, especially long-term, but all I'm saying is what Holtmann is doing at Ohio State right now is impressive coaching. It's not the same offense. Players had to learn a new system. And he's taken guys who were sloppy and had bad habits and turned them around in a short time. I don't wish to criticize Miller. I do think it's utterly unfair (and wrong) to diminish what Holtmann is doing.

Whoa, Holtmann is a great coach, not my point at all.

 

[TheSpecialK]

Whoa, Holtmann is a great coach, not my point at all.

I am not saying that was your intention, but I don't think the 'they run similar styles' stance should matter even if it were true (and again, it's not). The headline should be... he's doing a great job. That should be all that matters.

Look, I think you're backed into a corner because people are probably unfairly comparing the two. Some are saying 'hey, look at what Chris Holtmann is doing at Ohio State in his first year' as a way of saying Archie Miller is underachieving. I don't think that is fair to Miller. He shouldn't be judged this soon on the final product at Indiana. All I'm saying is that Holtmann's job shouldn't be diminished, either. It's not the same system. It's a new system.

 

[Bruce1]

Because some of the players will be there for 4 more years. Anyone with 1/2 a brain knew we weren’t going to be good this year, so should the coach sacrifice the future or diminish teaching his long term system so the team can go from terrible to not very good? Should he abandon his system in favor of one that suits the players that are either only here for a year or aren’t going to be effective in his system moving forward? That’s short sided & dumb.

It seems to me that all coaches need to adjust to the players they have. Even when they are coaching “their players” it seems obvious that 18 yr old players may not be the same when they arrive as they appeared in high school. The change in OSU from the beginning of the season is remarkable. That’s all.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Whoa, Holtmann is a great coach, not my point at all.

It isn't anyone's point here, I am not quite sure where he got that angle. The point is correctly made that the delta between what the Ohio s players are doing vs last year compared to the change the IU kids faced...is worlds apart.

 

[Frosty83]

....are taking #1 Sparty to the woodshed, up by over 20 as of this writing. I know people make excuses for the disparity in results between Archie and Holtmann’s first seasons but it is worth comparing the two. I just hope Glass didn’t screw up yet ANOTHER hire.

The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence.