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Hey, its almost Christmas and I just want to unload on you folks

SSB

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Nov 24, 2001
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because I sure as sh&t don't want to say these things to friends and family. Whats the worst that can happen? A couple of you guys will say I'm and idiot. Most of you will ignore my post entirely.

This is the thing. Im afraid that at some point in the future someone will write a book calling the Boomers "The Worst Generation". My dad was a part of The Greatest Generation, it would be disappointing to be labeled the worst. I mean, it's a long fall in the span of a generation.

I am confident some of you, assuming you're still reading this, are thinking "Hey that is entirely possible". Others are scratching your heads wondering how in the world that could happen. So like it or not here is my thinking.

First, when we (Boomers) started voting there was very little debt. In the most recent presidential election Boomers were pivotal in electing the Republican that promised to increase spending more than any other Republican and to lower taxes to. All of this at a time when we were already running half trillion dollar deficits. Not what the average Joe would say sounds logical.

Second, the whole climate change thing. Now I'm not trying to change anyones mind. Let's just be logical. More and more people, countries like China and India electrifying the grid, more and more cars. All burning gas or coal emitting the byproduct CO2. Same for all the extra people we need to feed and methane production. So is the logical thing to say "gee, I just don't see a relationship"? Or would a logical person say, "Hey, I think this is something we need to look at seriously". Once again, Boomers were instrumental in electing the guy who wants to dig more coal, deregulate, and dismisses it all as a hoax.

Finally, what we demand from public office. HW's death should remind all of us of what class is and it should serve as a stark reminder of what it isn't. At a time when Boomers should be the wise and learned seniors that are acting as an example for the younger generations we instead heavily favored a man that made up ridiculous names for his opponents, told more obvious lies then any candidate, and left many of our political norms in the dust.

In all honesty I don't have any children. So my worry for the children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of our country wouldn't seem to be as high a concern for me as for many others. But I still have this fear that years from now our (your) great grandchildren will wonder how we could have been so stupid.
 
Somewhere we went from the 1960s "make the world a better place tomorrow" to today's "eat, drink, and be merry today for tomorrow we die". We Boomers were very spoiled and it shows.
While I firmly believe that of the living generations the Boomers are clearly the worst, I consider it mostly to not be your fault and instead is likely cyclical. After great despair comes great prosperity.

I was raised without much by hard working parents. I inherited their hard working mentality and got lucky at a few key points in life and am doing very well. And now I spoil my sons. I’m causing the cycle all over again.
 
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While I firmly believe that of the living generations the Boomers are clearly the worst, I consider it mostly to not be your fault and instead is likely cyclical. After great despair comes great prosperity.

I was raised without much by hard working parents. I inherited their hard working mentality and got lucky at a few key points in life and am doing very well. And now I spoil my sons. I’m causing the cycle all over again.

That is true, but look at the path we boomers took. We were the generation that fought for clean water and clean air. We now want that, unless it reduces stock price by a penny. We wanted racial and gender equality, we want that so long as other races or women aren't actually wanting the same jobs we want. We were the generation that did not equate what is best for GM with being best for America, today that is exactly out position. We were the generation that accepted Ike's warning on the military industrial complex. Today we actively demand the military industrial complex be unfettered. We wanted peace, we now defend the Iraq War and supporting indiscriminate bombing in Yemen.

I don't think there is any coincidence about income inequality becoming so much worse during the boomer reign of power. It all may be cyclical, I do think there is something to that. But IF Donald Trump is the last boomer president, he serves as a great caricature of us boomers. We have met the enemy and he is us.
 
While I firmly believe that of the living generations the Boomers are clearly the worst, I consider it mostly to not be your fault and instead is likely cyclical. After great despair comes great prosperity.

I was raised without much by hard working parents. I inherited their hard working mentality and got lucky at a few key points in life and am doing very well. And now I spoil my sons. I’m causing the cycle all over again.


The largest generational difference I believe is driven by economic realities...vs an inherent massive change in consumer choice. Specifically the high cost of college and the subsequent college loan situation.

I've seen it time and again with my peers. While I was (very) fortunate to have parents that fully paid my undergrad at IU....and an employer that paid for my MBA....I have plenty of friends that basically needed to pay off loans comparable to a starter home mortgage before they can move off into their "normal" adult life. Combine that with the fact that good paying careers are uber-concentrated in expensive urban areas of the country, we see the millennial generation - that should be hitting peak consumer mode - forced to alter (maybe permanently) their needs/wants out of life. Majority say they would rather trade a higher paycheck for greater work/life balance and more time off, for example. Or preferring relatively smaller homes (compared with their parents) as long as they are located in areas that offers a sense of community and cultural attractions.

I'm not sure that mentality ever shifts once it's cemented in one's way of life as a young-middle aged adult.

Not really sure how that ties into the OP, re: Boomers....but feel like there is some point in there to be found.
 
I do not know where I fall on the generational scale as I am kind of a tweener. I am either really young Gen X or really old Millennial. I more identify with X though over shared experiences.

So anyway, I think that Millennials and Boomers are both mirror images of each other. Two gigantic demographic groups that were catered to by culture and as such, each has an over sized view of their importance in the scheme of things. Marvin says that Boomers got clean air and water. No you didn't. The leaders of this country at that time was still the WW2 generation. They had the major leadership roles in this country from Kennedy to H.W. Bush. The clean water act was passed in 1972, many Boomers were not even voting age at that point, let alone in the halls of power passing legislation.

The Millenials would have acted the same way in the Boomers position and vice versa. In each case there is a culturally supported vanity for each of the groups because of their size. Marketing, business, entertainment, etc. is focused on catering to your whims. The boomers were in a position to be one of the first generations to fully embrace and take advantage of all of the fruits of the post war boom. And they did. And when they reached adulthood, politicians pandered to them and gave them what they wanted. The sixties radical became 80's yuppies. The 90's small government turned into social security protecting populists. The millenials would have been the same. Their complaint now is that they are not being coddled like the Boomers. If they grew up in the same timeframe, they too would have taken advantage of everything the boomers did. In reality, neither of the demographics were owed anything.

For those generations that are sandwiched between and after these two huge demographic explosions, both come off as entitled and self indulgent.
 
I do not know where I fall on the generational scale as I am kind of a tweener. I am either really young Gen X or really old Millennial. I more identify with X though over shared experiences.

So anyway, I think that Millennials and Boomers are both mirror images of each other. Two gigantic demographic groups that were catered to by culture and as such, each has an over sized view of their importance in the scheme of things. Marvin says that Boomers got clean air and water. No you didn't. The leaders of this country at that time was still the WW2 generation. They had the major leadership roles in this country from Kennedy to H.W. Bush. The clean water act was passed in 1972, many Boomers were not even voting age at that point, let alone in the halls of power passing legislation.

The Millenials would have acted the same way in the Boomers position and vice versa. In each case there is a culturally supported vanity for each of the groups because of their size. Marketing, business, entertainment, etc. is focused on catering to your whims. The boomers were in a position to be one of the first generations to fully embrace and take advantage of all of the fruits of the post war boom. And they did. And when they reached adulthood, politicians pandered to them and gave them what they wanted. The sixties radical became 80's yuppies. The 90's small government turned into social security protecting populists. The millenials would have been the same. Their complaint now is that they are not being coddled like the Boomers. If they grew up in the same timeframe, they too would have taken advantage of everything the boomers did. In reality, neither of the demographics were owed anything.

For those generations that are sandwiched between and after these two huge demographic explosions, both come off as entitled and self indulgent.


Generations: The History of America's Future

Amazon has it.
Describes the characteristics of generations back to 1584.








 
Marvin says that Boomers got clean air and water. No you didn't. The leaders of this country at that time was still the WW2 generation.

The legislation was passed by older people, but the environmental movement boomed in the late 60s and early 70s. A kid born in 1947 would be 20 at 1967, perfect age to be in the environmental movement. Take a look at the first earth day demonstrations in 1970, massive turnout of people. About 100,000 in NYC turned out for Earth Day, and they largely were younger. You can see a story and pictures at https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/pictures-the-first-earth-day-in-1970/. It was estimated 20 million turned out nationwide. Boomers were not the only ones, but they were disproportionately represented. Here is one image to illustrate the size:

GettyImages-515213538_master-a987d5d.jpg


My point wasn't that boomers created legislation, my point was that boomers marched, wrote letters, held meetings, etc. Boomers of the 1960s and 70s were very political. Those boomers in that picture above today would gladly let CO2 go unabated if given a handful of pocket change. That's my point.
 
The legislation was passed by older people, but the environmental movement boomed in the late 60s and early 70s. A kid born in 1947 would be 20 at 1967, perfect age to be in the environmental movement. Take a look at the first earth day demonstrations in 1970, massive turnout of people. About 100,000 in NYC turned out for Earth Day, and they largely were younger. You can see a story and pictures at https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/pictures-the-first-earth-day-in-1970/. It was estimated 20 million turned out nationwide. Boomers were not the only ones, but they were disproportionately represented. Here is one image to illustrate the size:

GettyImages-515213538_master-a987d5d.jpg


My point wasn't that boomers created legislation, my point was that boomers marched, wrote letters, held meetings, etc. Boomers of the 1960s and 70s were very political. Those boomers in that picture above today would gladly let CO2 go unabated if given a handful of pocket change. That's my point.


Demographic polling on the issue seems to concur with your point:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/234314/global-warming-age-gap-younger-americans-worried.aspx

There are several potential reasons for these generational differences surrounding climate change. One, as is evident in particular on the question about global warming's effects in one's lifetime, results from the fact that older Americans may perceive that they will no longer be living when global warming changes the world more dramatically.​
 
It makes sense in a way, I am going to be dead before the worst of global warming hits. But other generations have concerned themselves with leaving future generations a better world. We equate better with more profitable, I am not sure that equation is there. Thanks for linking that poll.
FWIW, I attribute the most points into the environmental pot for why I think the Boomers are the worst living generation. Yes they inherited an industrial society, yes they had the means to advance us into cleaner manufacturing, and at some point they got lazy and rested on laurels. Then they developed an extreme level of cognitive dissonance to facilitate their laurel-resting.
 
FWIW, I attribute the most points into the environmental pot for why I think the Boomers are the worst living generation. Yes they inherited an industrial society, yes they had the means to advance us into cleaner manufacturing, and at some point they got lazy and rested on laurels. Then they developed an extreme level of cognitive dissonance to facilitate their laurel-resting.

Nonsense. They are not the worst living generation, they made decisions that they thought were best at the time. You cannot just wish viable clean energy into existence, it is an ongoing process. The only viable alternative that really developed in their lifetimes was nuclear and there are issues with that as well.

Solar, wind, geothermal, hydro, etc. are all hindered by geography and inefficiencies. We are making progress but it has taken some technological leaps to get there. The market will move there, the market is moving there as it becomes more cost efficient to do so.

The Boomers are no more "evil" for their choices than Millennials are for theirs. Quite a few industries are feeling the pinch because Millennial tastes are different. Are they to blame for putting people out of a job?

Boomers and Millennials are two drunken meatheads fighting in the street about how much of a caveman the other is.
 
The legislation was passed by older people, but the environmental movement boomed in the late 60s and early 70s. A kid born in 1947 would be 20 at 1967, perfect age to be in the environmental movement. Take a look at the first earth day demonstrations in 1970, massive turnout of people. About 100,000 in NYC turned out for Earth Day, and they largely were younger. You can see a story and pictures at https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/pictures-the-first-earth-day-in-1970/. It was estimated 20 million turned out nationwide. Boomers were not the only ones, but they were disproportionately represented. Here is one image to illustrate the size:

GettyImages-515213538_master-a987d5d.jpg


My point wasn't that boomers created legislation, my point was that boomers marched, wrote letters, held meetings, etc. Boomers of the 1960s and 70s were very political. Those boomers in that picture above today would gladly let CO2 go unabated if given a handful of pocket change. That's my point.
FWIW, I attribute the most points into the environmental pot for why I think the Boomers are the worst living generation. Yes they inherited an industrial society, yes they had the means to advance us into cleaner manufacturing, and at some point they got lazy and rested on laurels. Then they developed an extreme level of cognitive dissonance to facilitate their laurel-resting.

You guys are aggressively nonsensical. You talk about GLOBAL warming yet you assign blame to the relatively small population of Uncle Sam's baby boomers? Sheesh. The fact is the world population is exploding faster than ours, world's production of electricity is exploding faster than ours, and the world's coal combustion is exploding faster than ours. In fact ours is substantially less than before. The fact is that since we started taking the environment seriously our air and water have become remarkably cleaner, the food supply has become remarkably safer, the food supply has become remarkably more abundant, and lives are remarkably better. This all happened during the boomer generation.

And the boomer birth rates are lower than that of the greatest generation, and lower than most of the world's. Too many people is the root of many issues you mentioned. I know it's tempting, and even fashionable, to blame ourselves first for the problems of the world, but that blame simply doesn't hold up. When we think of boomers, I bet the image that leaps into the minds of most is a white male. The blame game intersects too.
 
You guys are aggressively nonsensical. You talk about GLOBAL warming yet you assign blame to the relatively small population of Uncle Sam's baby boomers? Sheesh. The fact is the world population is exploding faster than ours, world's production of electricity is exploding faster than ours, and the world's coal combustion is exploding faster than ours. In fact ours is substantially less than before. The fact is that since we started taking the environment seriously our air and water have become remarkably cleaner, the food supply has become remarkably safer, the food supply has become remarkably more abundant, and lives are remarkably better. This all happened during the boomer generation.

And the boomer birth rates are lower than that of the greatest generation, and lower than most of the world's. I know it's tempting, and even fashionable, to blame ourselves first for the problems of the world, but that blame simply doesn't hold up. When we think of boomers, I bet the image that leaps into the minds of most is a white male. The blame game intersects too.



I think the topic has gotten side tracked a bit....focusing upon the environment/climate change discussion. That's a very complex issue with challenging tradeoffs both here and around the world.

What's much more applicable to the topic is with the atrocious and irresponsible manner the boomer generation has managed the nation's financial situation, which greatly cripples the ability of future generations to respond to all sorts of upcoming challenges.... environment and otherwise.
 
Nonsense. They are not the worst living generation, they made decisions that they thought were best at the time. You cannot just wish viable clean energy into existence, it is an ongoing process. The only viable alternative that really developed in their lifetimes was nuclear and there are issues with that as well.

Solar, wind, geothermal, hydro, etc. are all hindered by geography and inefficiencies. We are making progress but it has taken some technological leaps to get there. The market will move there, the market is moving there as it becomes more cost efficient to do so.

The Boomers are no more "evil" for their choices than Millennials are for theirs. Quite a few industries are feeling the pinch because Millennial tastes are different. Are they to blame for putting people out of a job?

Boomers and Millennials are two drunken meatheads fighting in the street about how much of a caveman the other is.

You should read this. Millennials getting blamed for not supporting certain industries because they can’t afford to is a joke.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...60ce2a8148f_story.html?utm_term=.4b8931ded9d8

Trump epitomizes the Boomers. His recent comment that he doesn’t care about the federal debt because he will be gone by then is the Boomer credo. Marvin was right, it use to be taken for granted that Americans thought that the underlying principle was to leave the world a better place than you found it. Make sure your kids did better. Make sure the schools are better. All of it. Boomers simply just took and haven’t quit.
 
Nonsense. They are not the worst living generation, they made decisions that they thought were best at the time. You cannot just wish viable clean energy into existence, it is an ongoing process. The only viable alternative that really developed in their lifetimes was nuclear and there are issues with that as well.

Solar, wind, geothermal, hydro, etc. are all hindered by geography and inefficiencies. We are making progress but it has taken some technological leaps to get there. The market will move there, the market is moving there as it becomes more cost efficient to do so.

The Boomers are no more "evil" for their choices than Millennials are for theirs. Quite a few industries are feeling the pinch because Millennial tastes are different. Are they to blame for putting people out of a job?

Boomers and Millennials are two drunken meatheads fighting in the street about how much of a caveman the other is.
I’m speaking about how Boomers evolved (devolved) through the years. There is almost nothing wrong with nuclear except for decisions on spent fuel and we’d solve that issue quickly were it made a priority. If you deny that all resistance to accepting man made climate change and trying to limit it is coming from Boomers then buddy, you e got a healthy dose of I don’t know what.
 
I think the topic has gotten side tracked a bit....focusing upon the environment/climate change discussion. That's a very complex issue with challenging tradeoffs both here and around the world.

What's much more applicable to the topic is with the atrocious and irresponsible manner the boomer generation has managed the nation's financial situation, which greatly cripples the ability of future generations to respond to all sorts of upcoming challenges.... environment and otherwise.

There is another great point, the last great Social Security reform was in 1983. We've known it needs reform, but we just keep kicking the can.
 
You should read this. Millennials getting blamed for not supporting certain industries because they can’t afford to is a joke.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...60ce2a8148f_story.html?utm_term=.4b8931ded9d8

Trump epitomizes the Boomers. His recent comment that he doesn’t care about the federal debt because he will be gone by then is the Boomer credo. Marvin was right, it use to be taken for granted that Americans thought that the underlying principle was to leave the world a better place than you found it. Make sure your kids did better. Make sure the schools are better. All of it. Boomers simply just took and haven’t quit.

Your view is simplistic blame casting. If Boomers are guilty of things it is the guilt of road to hell being paved with good intentions. The student loan debt that Millennials complain about is a major function of that. And I do not blame them for being pissed, there are so many jobs these days that should not require a college degree but we have devalued a degree so much by making it so "everyone should be entitled to a college education" that it has become what a HS degree was to Boomers. So in order to really differentiate you have to grab a Masters in many fields. In order to do this, you need loans. And the loans are backed by the government, are usually deferred, and cannot be touched by bankruptcy so schools have no incentive to keep costs down. And that became big business, so things had to be done to attract the discerning Millennial student...the dorms were really making a change when I was in college in the late 90's and early 2000's and that only accelerated after I left.

I am not arguing that Boomers have not made questionable decisions at times (as a group) but all of this blame stuff is other demographics overlooking how much their ish stinks too.
 
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I’m speaking about how Boomers evolved (devolved) through the years. There is almost nothing wrong with nuclear except for decisions on spent fuel and we’d solve that issue quickly were it made a priority. If you deny that all resistance to accepting man made climate change and trying to limit it is coming from Boomers then buddy, you e got a healthy dose of I don’t know what.
Would say that the folks who really brought climate change to the front were/are boomers. Al Gore most famously but many others. Polls show long time support for action to address climate change.
https://news.stanford.edu/2018/07/16/poll-shows-consensus-climate-policy-remains-strong/
Simply put, our politics on climate have been captured by special interests not unlike how our politics on guns have been captured by special interests. Now the baby boomer generation can still be blamed for allowing that capture to take place. Rather than voting for politicians who were green a sufficient minority of them who were well positioned regionally and well-funded by anti green interests voted partisan red. There is no escaping that indictment. The greatest generation had the advantage of facing an external enemy who would have held them well and truly accountable had they failed to meet the Nazi threat. The boomers faced no real external threat and, instead, faced an even harder challenge of exercising self-control without any outside force to hold them accountable. Nature, of course, ultimately holds everyone accountable.
 
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If you deny that all resistance to accepting man made climate change

I don't mean to litigate climate change yet again. Having said that, the issue for me is exactly cased by the phrase "man made climate change". Man has not "made" climate change. I don't even know why that is disputed. Most all of us agree man influences climate in different ways. (omitting the word "change" from that sentence is deliberate). As far as I am concerned, nothing important can be discussed by using the word "denier" which is where ANY discussion about man's influence on climate goes within one or two posts.

Yeah, I'm splitting hairs with language. I think that is what we need to do with many discussions. I call that seeing and appreciating nuance.
 
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I think the topic has gotten side tracked a bit....focusing upon the environment/climate change discussion. That's a very complex issue with challenging tradeoffs both here and around the world.

What's much more applicable to the topic is with the atrocious and irresponsible manner the boomer generation has managed the nation's financial situation, which greatly cripples the ability of future generations to respond to all sorts of upcoming challenges.... environment and otherwise.

That is fair. However, none of the subsequent generations are all that interested in fixing things either. Nobody will agree to cuts to their pet projects and nobody is really that interested in raising taxes on themselves. Those who are in favor generally want them raised on the person making more than them. Those that are willing to pay extra in taxes usually want an even larger burden on the person above them.

Margaret Thatcher was dead on, eventually you run out of other people's money. Boomers may have been negligent in their handling, but nobody that has followed has been that interested in course correcting either.
 
I think the topic has gotten side tracked a bit....focusing upon the environment/climate change discussion. That's a very complex issue with challenging tradeoffs both here and around the world.

What's much more applicable to the topic is with the atrocious and irresponsible manner the boomer generation has managed the nation's financial situation, which greatly cripples the ability of future generations to respond to all sorts of upcoming challenges.... environment and otherwise.

Well, the fiscal issues are mostly grounded in our unfunded entitlement obligations. These are largely Social Security and Medicare. Social Security was started before boomers were born. Medicare came along while boomers were teenagers. There were design flaws baked into both systems because they were both intended to be mostly pay-as-you-go systems. (Yeah I know there is a SS trust fund, but that is mostly a rouse to put more money into the general treasury funds). Pay-as-you-go is really a pyramid scheme that depends on people entering the pay-in pipeline equalling those in the payout pipeline. That assumption has proven to be a mistake.

GWB proposed an important and meaningful change to the whole concept of how SS would be structured, thereby giving it viability far into the future. There was large bipartisan opposition. So we are stuck with huge unfunded liabilities and exploding debt as we stumble along. I agree there is a problem here, but I am unwilling to agree that it is specifically a boomer-caused problem.
 
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Before going all reverential on the "Greatest Generation", keep in mind that they legislated a free college education for a large cohort of themselves, subsidized home ownership, turned SS into a full blown retirement plan, and set themselves up with universal health care. Yet it's the greedy Boomers who are assailed for asking for the same.
 
Well, the fiscal issues are mostly grounded in our unfunded entitlement obligations. These are largely Social Security and Medicare. Social Security was started before boomers were born. Medicare came along while boomers were teenagers. There were design flaws baked into both systems because they were both intended to be mostly pay-as-you-go systems. (Yeah I know there is a SS trust fund, but that is mostly a rouse to put more money into the general treasury funds). Pay-as-you-go is really a pyramid scheme that depends on people entering the pay-in pipeline equalling those in the payout pipeline. That assumption has proven to be a mistake.

GWB proposed an important and meaningful change to the whole concept of how SS would be structured, thereby giving it viability far into the future. There was large bipartisan opposition. So we are stuck with huge unfunded liabilities and exploding debt as we stumble along. I agree there is a problem here, but I am unwilling to agree that it is specifically a boomer-caused problem.


Those are two issues related to future underfunded programs.... but they are both fully funded via their tax mechanisms/trust funds to date.

That isn't what caused our $20T debt, nor our current projected $1T annual deficit.
 
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One thing to add though, the whole concept of generational differences may be faulty.

Every generation leads to problems. The generation before the greatest created a depression and a world war. Mark describes some of what the greatest had left undone. We have discussed the boomers. My chief complaint about my fellow boomers isn't that we failed in some ways, its that we went from a highly idealistic group to a screw the ideal group. The idea that we weren't all about being best for wall street in our youth to wall street rules in our old age.
 
I think the topic has gotten side tracked a bit....focusing upon the environment/climate change discussion. That's a very complex issue with challenging tradeoffs both here and around the world.

What's much more applicable to the topic is with the atrocious and irresponsible manner the boomer generation has managed the nation's financial situation, which greatly cripples the ability of future generations to respond to all sorts of upcoming challenges.... environment and otherwise.
I respectfully disagree. I think that our financial situation is much easier to solve and solutions can be undertaken at any time. This is not the case with CO2/climate. Those environmental problems will not be so easily reversed.

But even if we move away from climate/environmental challenges and toward political/economic ones I would say that there are other failures more dire than the financial ones you mention. I would park the growing contempt with which so many regard maintaining our civil institutions/republic at the boomers' doorstep. This contempt of international agreements and agencies that must be created to manage all manner of global problems including the environment and trade...the growing hostility to science and to technocratic solutions to our problems more generally...the devotion to the idea that markets solve all problems...the devotion to tribe over broader values. All these devotions are like poison to the roots of the enlightenment and the enlightenment institutions including democracy and science and are a ticket back to the dark ages.
 
You guys are aggressively nonsensical. You talk about GLOBAL warming yet you assign blame to the relatively small population of Uncle Sam's baby boomers? Sheesh. The fact is the world population is exploding faster than ours, world's production of electricity is exploding faster than ours, and the world's coal combustion is exploding faster than ours. In fact ours is substantially less than before. The fact is that since we started taking the environment seriously our air and water have become remarkably cleaner, the food supply has become remarkably safer, the food supply has become remarkably more abundant, and lives are remarkably better. This all happened during the boomer generation.

And the boomer birth rates are lower than that of the greatest generation, and lower than most of the world's. Too many people is the root of many issues you mentioned. I know it's tempting, and even fashionable, to blame ourselves first for the problems of the world, but that blame simply doesn't hold up. When we think of boomers, I bet the image that leaps into the minds of most is a white male. The blame game intersects too.


Climate change isn't caused by one country or generation. That would be ridiculous, as you said. But Boomers were instrumental in electing a guy who believes in deregulating and digging more coal. As I said in my initial post, true or not, climate change is logical. Many a Boomer said "that's stupid".
 
Shouldn't we criticize the Greatest Generation for turning a blind eye to Hitler's rise to power and treatment of Jews, in part because of strong anti-Semitism in this country? Shouldn't we also criticize them for tolerating and, for many, actively supporting the brutal treatment of African Americans and other minorities within our own country? Or how about their support of abominations such as eugenics (which, in part, inspired the Nazi's eugenics program)?

Yes, the Greatest Generation stepped up to the plate when the world was in desperate need of our leadership and sacrifice. But let's not pretend that it was all ice cream and lollipops, before or after WWII. There's no greatest or worst generation. We have had tremendous successes as well as tremendous failures as a country, and that goes for every single generation of Americans. And yes, perhaps one of the biggest failures of the Baby Boomer generation happened in 2016 (to be fair, we had help from some other generations). We'll get through that, as well as global warming. It might take some of us a bit longer to come around to reality, but Idiocracy is not on our horizon.
 
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But Boomers were instrumental in electing a guy who believes in deregulating and digging more coal.

Good greif. Who gives a crap who elected Trump? Trump's policies have at the most an infatessimally minute impact and probably less than that on climate.
 
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Somewhere we went from the 1960s "make the world a better place tomorrow" to today's "eat, drink, and be merry today for tomorrow we die". We Boomers were very spoiled and it shows.

Are we spoiled or is it something else? Sometimes I think it is bias. I don't remember my grandparents having strong political bias. Racial yes, nationalistic, yes but not political. At least not to the degree we see today. Even my parents when they were in their 40's and 50's, while they had a party identity, didn't have anything near the bias we see today. But by the time they hit their late 60's moving into their 70's they were forwarding all those ridiculous e-mails that gave rise to Snopes. I think Boomers were well into developing strong bias by the time they hit their 30's. Bias makes you stupid.
 
I don't mean to litigate climate change yet again. Having said that, the issue for me is exactly cased by the phrase "man made climate change". Man has not "made" climate change. I don't even know why that is disputed. Most all of us agree man influences climate in different ways. (omitting the word "change" from that sentence is deliberate). As far as I am concerned, nothing important can be discussed by using the word "denier" which is where ANY discussion about man's influence on climate goes within one or two posts.

Yeah, I'm splitting hairs with language. I think that is what we need to do with many discussions. I call that seeing and appreciating nuance.


I don't understand. If due to our activity we are putting more CO2 and methane into the atmosphere than would normally occur, and that leads to a change in climate, wouldn't that indicate that the change is caused by man?
 
Good greif. Who gives a crap who elected Trump? Trump's policies have at the most an infatessimally minute impact and probably less than that on climate.

Try to follow along. Im not talking about how much his policies impact any of this. Im talking about people who support someone who believes we should spend more and tax less. Someone who, despite logic, says dig more coal, deregulate. A guy who, when it comes to class and intelligence couldn't carry HW's jock.
 
Are we spoiled or is it something else? Sometimes I think it is bias. I don't remember my grandparents having strong political bias. Racial yes, nationalistic, yes but not political. At least not to the degree we see today. Even my parents when they were in their 40's and 50's, while they had a party identity, didn't have anything near the bias we see today. But by the time they hit their late 60's moving into their 70's they were forwarding all those ridiculous e-mails that gave rise to Snopes. I think Boomers were well into developing strong bias by the time they hit their 30's. Bias makes you stupid.


That must ebb and flow generationally....every year I become less partisan...to the point I'm almost an extreme anti-partisan at this point. Self-described independents make up the largest party in America today. And it's largest among younger generations. A whopping 71% of Millennials say both parties do a poor job representing Americans.

I just want decent people that want to make a real effort at finding rationale solutions to problems.

 
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Shouldn't we criticize the Greatest Generation for turning a blind eye to Hitler's rise to power and treatment of Jews, in part because of strong anti-Semitism in this country? Shouldn't we also criticize them for tolerating and, for many, actively supporting the brutal treatment of African Americans and other minorities within our own country? Or how about their support of abominations such as eugenics (which, in part, inspired the Nazi's eugenics program)?

Yes, the Greatest Generation stepped up to the plate when the world was in desperate need of our leadership and sacrifice. But let's not pretend that it was all ice cream and lollipops, before or after WWII. There's no greatest or worst generation. We have had tremendous successes as well as tremendous failures as a country, and that goes for every single generation of Americans. And yes, perhaps one of the biggest failures of the Baby Boomer generation happened in 2016 (to be fair, we had help from some other generations). We'll get through that, as well as global warming. It might take some of us a bit longer to come around to reality, but Idiocracy is not on our horizon.
I agree with most of that, but the greatest started in 1910. Hitler was not their fault.
 
I don't understand. If due to our activity we are putting more CO2 and methane into the atmosphere than would normally occur, and that leads to a change in climate, wouldn't that indicate that the change is caused by man?

But for man, would climate change happen? I think it is fair for you to say that man is among the causes of climate change. CO2 and methane is one of the ways that happens. It's also possible if the earth wants to enter a cooling phase, man is retarding climate change.
 
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Try to follow along. Im not talking about how much his policies impact any of this. Im talking about people who support someone who believes we should spend more and tax less. Someone who, despite logic, says dig more coal, deregulate. A guy who, when it comes to class and intelligence couldn't carry HW's jock.

So . . . . you are talking about how you feel about Trump. I understand. As I said often, I think the effect Trump has on policy is by in large beneficial. My feelings about him aren't very relevant to that.
 
Even my parents when they were in their 40's and 50's, while they had a party identity, didn't have anything near the bias we see today. But by the time they hit their late 60's moving into their 70's they were forwarding all those ridiculous e-mails that gave rise to Snopes.
My parents were reasonable Goldwater conservatives who were appalled by Nixon, loved Reagan, and thought GHWB was a disappointment. Then came Rush Limbaugh and Fox. They soon became hateful, spiteful, conspiracy-ridden nutbars.
 
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I don't mean to litigate climate change yet again. Having said that, the issue for me is exactly cased by the phrase "man made climate change". Man has not "made" climate change. I don't even know why that is disputed. Most all of us agree man influences climate in different ways. (omitting the word "change" from that sentence is deliberate). As far as I am concerned, nothing important can be discussed by using the word "denier" which is where ANY discussion about man's influence on climate goes within one or two posts.

Yeah, I'm splitting hairs with language. I think that is what we need to do with many discussions. I call that seeing and appreciating nuance.
That’s fair. Going forward assume I agree that climate change is not monopolized by man but that we do alter its rate and amplify/alter the climate through our actions outside of “placebo.”
 
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I don't mean to litigate climate change yet again. Having said that, the issue for me is exactly cased by the phrase "man made climate change". Man has not "made" climate change. I don't even know why that is disputed. Most all of us agree man influences climate in different ways. (omitting the word "change" from that sentence is deliberate). As far as I am concerned, nothing important can be discussed by using the word "denier" which is where ANY discussion about man's influence on climate goes within one or two posts.

Yeah, I'm splitting hairs with language. I think that is what we need to do with many discussions. I call that seeing and appreciating nuance.


Why is that really important when you know what anyone and everyone is really talking about is anthropogenic global warming? If everyone used AGW in their discussion....rather than 'climate change'....would that end your need to debate the nuance of the chosen term?
 
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