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Hearing.....

Sure it happens... but with athletes to keep them eligible where the instructors are told what grades are needed? Or the advisor/instructors are getting papers written for them? Yeah, that's a pretty big deal. The difference is the stuff you are citing is cheating by the student, what they did was institutional cheating, there's a difference. Are we really having this conversation? Do you work at UNC?
The NCAA investigated and found they could do nothing. As I stated, this isn’t an NCAA issue, this is an institution issue. There were no punishments handed down from the NCAA, and that seems like the right call to me.
 
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UNC as an institution should have gone on academic probation at best and maybe even get temporary academic loss of accreditation for fake classes
Neither of those are issues for the NCAA, though.
 
That's not the issue... unless the NCAA is prepared to scrutinize every course offered the issue is if athletes were funneled to the course, and had papers written for them or were given unearned grades, or both. I could sign up for the same class as someone else, but it doesn't preclude that the other person was given preferential treatment.

Read the article I linked. It says that the advisor in question, Debra Crowley, said she was told what grades were needed for athletes to remain eligible and that she believed admins were aware of what they were doing and approved. Rashad McCants said other people wrote his papers. Those were the problems... or should have been!
You don’t think players aren’t directed to classes and majors everywhere? And that they’re admitted over far more deserving students all the time? Do you really want the NCAA stepping into matters such as this?
 
UNC as an institution should have gone on academic probation at best and maybe even get temporary academic loss of accreditation for fake classes


Get off your high horse. I took 2 or 3 classes at IU that were no different. One was a history of the Caribbean or some such thing. Was basically this old hippie telling stories about his time living and teaching on different Caribbean islands. Was actually quite entertaining. The entire grade came from a couple blue book essay exams, which seemed as if you filled out with something legible you got an A.

IU was even nice enough to publish the prior grades for each class before you registered. When you saw a class that was 96% A and 4% B.... you knew which blow off elective to sign up for.
 
Roy knew he had kids in AA Studies. No proof he knew the classes were “fake”. Every P5 school except a handful doesn’t want the ncaa legislating this kind of stuff. Just about every school, including the one you and I cheer for, plays in a glass arena on stuff like this. Do you really want the ncaa in the middle of academics? Do you want them legislating things like admissions decisions? It’s a mighty slippery slope, and the notion of what constitutes cheating would be in the eye of the beholder. Remember that survey of BiG coaches and where IU resided in terms of their ability to get kids into school? No exactly a pretty picture.

Honesty question, which are the bogus keep your eligibility classes that IU offers?

Also, I thought part of the problem people had with UNC was that it was not a couple of classes, but more a whole curriculum. Also, I do get and agree that it is not in the NCAA's duty to dictate what studies a university allows. But it is a bad lock for a university, especially a major university with a proud reputation to graduate kids with that type of degree. At the very least the AAU should look at it's accreditation.
 
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Honesty question, which are the bogus keep your eligibility classes that IU offers?
Any 100 level geology course, for starters. Many sociology and telecom courses at the 100 levels, and many in the School of HPER.
 
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Get off your high horse. I took 2 or 3 classes at IU that were no different. One was a history of the Caribbean or some such thing. Was basically this old hippie telling stories about his time living and teaching on different Caribbean islands. Was actually quite entertaining. The entire grade came from a couple blue book essay exams, which seemed as if you filled out with something legible you got an A.

IU was even nice enough to publish the prior grades for each class before you registered. When you saw a class that was 96% A and 4% B.... you knew which blow off elective to sign up for.
Just as this conversation has since it occurred, I'm just blown away by people's take on this. A couple differences: 1) you WENT to this class. Every school has easy classes, that's not the issue. 2) You did the work presumably, or decided to try and cheat on your own. This was a class you didn't attend and only submitted papers where a players is saying he had those papers written for him by others, either the instructors or people arranged by them, and the "instructors" say the admin supported them and wanted them to give them passing grades and were told what those grades needed to be. It's not that it was an "easy" class, or that the student undertook cheating on their own. They were funneled to these classes, and had the work done for them and arranged for by the instructors (according to McCants), and were given grades necessary to keep them eligible. You don't see the difference, or think that's wrong? It's that this was institutional cheating. So, if the NCAA finds it doesn't "regulate" that, then you need to start. Unbelievable to me, but don't worry, you're in good company, as I've had this discussion with many folks, and a lot of people don't see the issue. Honestly, this case and it's "handling" or lack thereof, coupled with our decline caused me to lose a lot of interest in the college game.
 
Just as this conversation has since it occurred, I'm just blown away by people's take on this. A couple differences: 1) you WENT to this class. Every school has easy classes, that's not the issue. 2) You did the work presumably, or decided to try and cheat on your own. This was a class you didn't attend and only submitted papers where a players is saying he had those papers written for him by others, either the instructors or people arranged by them, and the "instructors" say the admin supported them and wanted them to give them passing grades and were told what those grades needed to be. It's not that it was an "easy" class, or that the student undertook cheating on their own. They were funneled to these classes, and had the work done for them and arranged for by the instructors (according to McCants), and were given grades necessary to keep them eligible. You don't see the difference, or think that's wrong? It's that this was institutional cheating. So, if the NCAA finds it doesn't "regulate" that, then you need to start. Unbelievable to me, but don't worry, you're in good company, as I've had this discussion with many folks, and a lot of people don't see the issue. Honestly, this case and it's "handling" or lack thereof, coupled with our decline caused me to lose a lot of interest in the college game.
I think you’re trying to use the RM example and apply it across a broad group of athletes. No one is defending what went on with RM (if, in fact, all of it was true), but there’s no evidence of which I’m aware that there was some massive paper writing, test taking sweatshop set up at UNC for the sole purpose of requiring no work from SA’s while maintaining airtight athletic eligibility on their behalf. Again, this is about the NCAA determining what is and isn’t proper from an academic standpoint among their member schools, and that’s a slippery slope the Presidents (who are the NCAA, for all intents and purposes) have chosen to not legislate, as they understand the broader ramifications.
 
I think you’re trying to use the RM example and apply it across a broad group of athletes. No one is defending what went on with RM (if, in fact, all of it was true), but there’s no evidence of which I’m aware that there was some massive paper writing, test taking sweatshop set up at UNC for the sole purpose of requiring no work from SA’s while maintaining airtight athletic eligibility on their behalf. Again, this is about the NCAA determining what is and isn’t proper from an academic standpoint among their member schools, and that’s a slippery slope the Presidents (who are the NCAA, for all intents and purposes) have chosen to not legislate, as they understand the broader ramifications.
paper writing, test taking sweat shop? Ha. You've got a player, who really has nothing to gain, unless he's just got an axe to grind, who says he had papers written for him in an independent study course, the faculty member who hepled run the program admit that she believed the Admin knew and supported what they were doing and she was told what grades athletes needed to obtain to keep eligible and then a learning specialist/tutor who blew the whistle and said the athletes weren't actually qualified. There's way more smoke than you are allowing for, and their accrediting agencies found enough wrongdoing to place them on probation. The NCAA found what they wanted to find, or not find.

This Wiki page might be BS posted by a Dukie for all I know, but it summarizes and hits the high marks of what I recall. I don't understand the slippery slope of the NCAA saying it's wrong and punishable if SA's don't do their own work, and are given grades they didn't earn to keep them eligible. This was never about a U having "easy" classes.



...and UNC's internal investigation of the program only went back to 2007.... Whole thing stinks to high heaven
 
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paper writing, test taking sweat shop? Ha. You've got a player, who really has nothing to gain, unless he's just got an axe to grind, who says he had papers written for him in an independent study course, the faculty member who hepled run the program admit that she believed the Admin knew and supported what they were doing and she was told what grades athletes needed to obtain to keep eligible and then a learning specialist/tutor who blew the whistle and said the athletes weren't actually qualified. There's way more smoke than you are allowing for, and their accrediting agencies found enough wrongdoing to place them on probation. The NCAA found what they wanted to find, or not find.

This Wiki page might be BS posted by a Dukie for all I know, but it summarizes and hits the high marks of what I recall. I don't understand the slippery slope of the NCAA saying it's wrong and punishable if SA's don't do their own work, and are given grades they didn't earn to keep them eligible. This was never about a U having "easy" classes.



...and UNC's internal investigation of the program only went back to 2007.... Whole thing stinks to high heaven
When people tell you what they are...believe them the first time. Re the "fake" classes, any academic advisor or athletic support aid will absolutely know if the classes were fake and should have told the coaching staff. If they did not know, they were abject failures and if they knew and didn't inform the coaching staff they were corrupt.

This may not be an NCAA issue because the classes were open to any "fake" student, but it certainly is an integrity and moral issue.
 
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paper writing, test taking sweat shop? Ha. You've got a player, who really has nothing to gain, unless he's just got an axe to grind, who says he had papers written for him in an independent study course, the faculty member who hepled run the program admit that she believed the Admin knew and supported what they were doing and she was told what grades athletes needed to obtain to keep eligible and then a learning specialist/tutor who blew the whistle and said the athletes weren't actually qualified. There's way more smoke than you are allowing for, and their accrediting agencies found enough wrongdoing to place them on probation. The NCAA found what they wanted to find, or not find.

This Wiki page might be BS posted by a Dukie for all I know, but it summarizes and hits the high marks of what I recall. I don't understand the slippery slope of the NCAA saying it's wrong and punishable if SA's don't do their own work, and are given grades they didn't earn to keep them eligible. This was never about a U having "easy" classes.



...and UNC's internal investigation of the program only went back to 2007.... Whole thing stinks to high hevaen and only UNC could have gotten away with this... and they did!
It was “a player” or, more like a few players. I’m not saying there weren’t abuses, but I think you’d be surprised at the lengths some tutors go to assist athletes. I think it’s also a matter of incremental growth in questionable practices typically fueled by a relative few rogues, rather than some orchestrated initiative.

I’m just not seeing how anyone would or could think this should be something for the NCAA, who consistently have their hands more than full with the rule book as it’s presently constituted. Plug them into a role as an academic referee and their world will grow exponentially. If that happened, count on it happening first at the front door (admissions), based on the reasoning that abuses down the line only occur because unqualified kids are admitted to school when they shouldn’t be. That will literally change the face of college athletics (for the better), but it would also be the ‘volume lowering‘ that Knight and Myles Brand and others have called for, to deaf ears. As for “only UNC could have gotten away with this”, thats really unfounded hyperbole not rooted in reality. It’s just not an NCAA thing.
 
It was “a player” or, more like a few players. I’m not saying there weren’t abuses, but I think you’d be surprised at the lengths some tutors go to assist athletes. I think it’s also a matter of incremental growth in questionable practices typically fueled by a relative few rogues, rather than some orchestrated initiative.

I’m just not seeing how anyone would or could think this should be something for the NCAA, who consistently have their hands more than full with the rule book as it’s presently constituted. Plug them into a role as an academic referee and their world will grow exponentially. If that happened, count on it happening first at the front door (admissions), based on the reasoning that abuses down the line only occur because unqualified kids are admitted to school when they shouldn’t be. That will literally change the face of college athletics (for the better), but it would also be the ‘volume lowering‘ that Knight and Myles Brand and others have called for, to deaf ears. As for “only UNC could have gotten away with this”, thats really unfounded hyperbole not rooted in reality. It’s just not an NCAA thing.
I'm far from an expert (obviously!) on NCAA rules. I guess I just assumed everyone understood and agreed that students had to do their own work, and that instructors couldn't be giving grades based on need and/or the requests or direction of coaches or academic advisors and not actual coursework completed. So, yes, those basic premises, I believe are and should be an "NCAA thing". I'm not saying they should police and monitor the content of every course offered my member institutions, but to me it most definitely is an "NCAA thing" if programs/schools are arranging to have coursework done for their athletes, and/or passing grades are given to keep athletes eligible. And, if substantive allegations about violations of this are made, then they should investigate. I guess I've just been blissfully unaware all this time and assumed this was "against the rules". As I said, this entire episode and the decline of our bball program have left me much less interested in "big time" college athletics.
 
I'm far from an expert (obviously!) on NCAA rules. I guess I just assumed everyone understood and agreed that students had to do their own work, and that instructors couldn't be giving grades based on need and/or the requests or direction of coaches or academic advisors and not actual coursework completed. So, yes, those basic premises, I believe are and should be an "NCAA thing". I'm not saying they should police and monitor the content of every course offered my member institutions, but to me it most definitely is an "NCAA thing" if programs/schools are arranging to have coursework done for their athletes, and/or passing grades are given to keep athletes eligible. And, if substantive allegations about violations of this are made, then they should investigate. I guess I've just been blissfully unaware all this time and assumed this was "against the rules". As I said, this entire episode and the decline of our bball program have left me much less interested in "big time" college athletics.
I’m not arguing with your standards, only with the notion that this isn’t going on, in some form or fashion, almost everywhere. Influence on grades to help players maintain eligibility, extensive and almost unlimited “tutoring”, steering SA’s into certain majors and classes that have evolved into pseudo purpose built eligibility vehicles . . . all are prevalent in big time college athletics. And special admissions that create all sorts of pathways into schools for kids who aren’t remotely qualified or capable of doing college work, yet in they go.

Read what Jim Harbaigh said many years ago about how UM funneled kids into a certain major and then essentially abandoned them after they were done with school. Even IU had a “General Studies” major for decades, and many on the faculty were furious about it and believed it was counter to the academic mission of the University. I would guarantee you that every President, Provost, Chancellor and Academic Dean used the UNC matter as an opportunity to discreetly review policies, procedures, protocols and academic offerings within their universities, and that they found and addressed some less than attractive circumstances.

Again, I just don’t see the NCAA as having, wanting or needing to be the cop here, and I think they’d likely make it far worse, rather than better, and that’s not because of some unfounded notion that they’re trying to protect certain schools. There’s never been any evidence of that, for good and obvious reasons.
 
I’m not arguing with your standards, only with the notion that this isn’t going on, in some form or fashion, almost everywhere. Influence on grades to help players maintain eligibility, extensive and almost unlimited “tutoring”, steering SA’s into certain majors and classes that have evolved into pseudo purpose built eligibility vehicles . . . all are prevalent in big time college athletics. And special admissions that create all sorts of pathways into schools for kids who aren’t remotely qualified or capable of doing college work, yet in they go.

Read what Jim Harbaigh said many years ago about how UM funneled kids into a certain major and then essentially abandoned them after they were done with school. Even IU had a “General Studies” major for decades, and many on the faculty were furious about it and believed it was counter to the academic mission of the University. I would guarantee you that every President, Provost, Chancellor and Academic Dean used the UNC matter as an opportunity to discreetly review policies, procedures, protocols and academic offerings within their universities, and that they found and addressed some less than attractive circumstances.

Again, I just don’t see the NCAA as having, wanting or needing to be the cop here, and I think they’d likely make it far worse, rather than better, and that’s not because of some unfounded notion that they’re trying to protect certain schools. There’s never been any evidence of that, for good and obvious reasons.
well, their accrediting agency investigated and placed them on probation. And, I think UNC is the most "connected" state university there is, so yes, I believe if this happened at almost any other University, it would not have been swept under the rug like it was here, and penalties and sanctions would have been handed out. The key issues to me are that the papers purportedly were written by others for the SA's and that the instructors/admins were told what grades they needed to be given. And you can argue all you want about RM's credibility, but ESPN verified much of what he said through his unofficial transcript (which the University refused to release), and also Mary Winningham corroborated it, and said she believed what he said. Some students, athletes included, have always tried to cheat, but the problem here is that this department created and encouraged that cheating to keep their athletes eligible. Anyway, as I said, this laid bare to me just what a joke the SA model is in major conferences and has helped lessen my interest. Watch way less sports now overall, and far more pro ball when I do watch.
 
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well, their accrediting agency investigated and placed them on probation. And, I think UNC is the most "connected" state university there is, so yes, I believe if this happened at almost any other University, it would not have been swept under the rug like it was here, and penalties and sanctions would have been handed out. The key issues to me are that the papers purportedly were written by others for the SA's and that the instructors/admins were told what grades they needed to be given. And you can argue all you want about RM's credibility, but ESPN verified much of what he said through the unofficial transcript (which the University refused to release), and also Mary Winningham corroborated it. Some students, athletes included, have always tried to cheat, but the problem here is that this department created and encouraged that cheating to keep their athletes eligible. Anyway, as I said, this laid bare to me just what a joke the SA model is in major conferences and has helped lessen my interest. Watch way less sports now, and far more pro ball when I do watch.
Penalties and sanctions handed out by whom? Obviously not the NCAA, so I’m not sure what other athletic related governing body would intercede. I suppose the ACC could step on, but they’d be as unlikely to “enforce” rules that don’t exist as the NCAA was. Perfectly appropriate for the academic accrediting organization to levy sanctions, however.

As for RM, I never questioned his credibility but instead wondered if there were many others who came forward with similar allegations. To date, I’ve not seen anything that suggests that, but perhaps others will surface. And while it appears as though the athletic department was a beneficiary of this, the actual “instigators” were rogue employees who took it upon themselves to chart a less than ethical course. That’s clearly not a good things, but there wasn’t an orchestrated fraud perpetrated by the athletic department, either.

Agree wholeheartedly that college sports were long ago corrupted. I just don’t envision the NCAA, as it’s currently configured, would be the body to clean that up. Whoever would be tasked with such an endeavor should start at the beginning, however, and that’s in the admissions office. Unfortunately, the people upset about UNC aren’t likely to see that as something they’d like to see repaired.
 
Penalties and sanctions handed out by whom? Obviously not the NCAA, so I’m not sure what other athletic related governing body would intercede. I suppose the ACC could step on, but they’d be as unlikely to “enforce” rules that don’t exist as the NCAA was. Perfectly appropriate for the academic accrediting organization to levy sanctions, however.

As for RM, I never questioned his credibility but instead wondered if there were many others who came forward with similar allegations. To date, I’ve not seen anything that suggests that, but perhaps others will surface. And while it appears as though the athletic department was a beneficiary of this, the actual “instigators” were rogue employees who took it upon themselves to chart a less than ethical course. That’s clearly not a good things, but there wasn’t an orchestrated fraud perpetrated by the athletic department, either.

Agree wholeheartedly that college sports were long ago corrupted. I just don’t envision the NCAA, as it’s currently configured, would be the body to clean that up. Whoever would be tasked with such an endeavor should start at the beginning, however, and that’s in the admissions office. Unfortunately, the people upset about UNC aren’t likely to see that as something they’d like to see repaired.
Why would others come forward? You're going to be alienated and scapegoated by the school (and former teammates), just as McCants and Willingham have been and are calling in to question your degree and/or risking your career in Willingham's case. Willingham's name is complete Mudd around Chapel Hill; totally villified and hated.

I don't see how/why the NCAA couldn't levy "lack of institutional control" or some similar penalty. If a school sets up classes or in this case pretty much a department (think I saw there were 200 of these paper classes just in AFAM) and arranges for papers to be written or grades to be granted, and the NCAA determines they don't have jurisdiction, why are we even calling kids student athletes? You can't count on the foxes to regulate themselves in how they manage the chickens. They regulate GPAs, isn't requiring that students actually do the work a natural extension? I can accept that the NCAA says they can't do anything here because our rules don't extend ther as they stand now, but then change or add rules, or make compliance with the accrediting bodies a requirement and count on them to regulate.
 
When people tell you what they are...believe them the first time. Re the "fake" classes, any academic advisor or athletic support aid will absolutely know if the classes were fake and should have told the coaching staff. If they did not know, they were abject failures and if they knew and didn't inform the coaching staff they were corrupt.

This may not be an NCAA issue because the classes were open to any "fake" student, but it certainly is an integrity and moral issue.
integrity and morals in big time college sports? an oxymoron.
 
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