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Hats off to CKW and staff!

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82IUGraduate

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Aug 7, 2006
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The type of recruits that they are pulling in is pretty remarkable considering the state of IU football the past 20 years. Well for the most part, IU's football history and reputation for the last 70 years have been a downward spiral. Believe it or not, IU football winning pct. didn't dip below .500 for good until the 1950 season. We actually had some gridiron success all the way through the Bo McMillan years ending in the late 40's. Our Athletic Dept's lack of football "attention" started catching up with us in the 50's. Of course we have had some "pockets" of success with Pont and Mallory but most folks only see the "basketball state" tag. These recruiters are good enough that I believe they could sell a block of ice to a native of the North Pole! LOL

Go Hoosiers!
82
 
It will take several more years of CKW recruiting to ultimately

stem the tide that has gone against this program for so long.

He's the right man for the job, no matter what. He's recruiting at a BCS level, the wins will soon follow.
 
Re: It doesn't have to take years.....

.....CKW hauled in a pretty highly ranked class with Latham and that group and they are juniors now.
It's time for results. Illinois went from a nothing team in 2005 and 2006 to a Rose Bowl team in 2007 due to one exceptional recruiting class.
We can either cling on to the past as an excuse for poor performance or shed it and move forward.
CKW can recruit. Can he coach them up?
 
Re: "Can he coach them up?"

Yeah, that is the question.......the proof is in the pudding....so far, the wins in the CKW era have been 1,4,5,& 4....while Jerry Kill has managed - what? - three Bowls in the same amount of time...? ....at a program that hasn't seen a Rose Bowl since 1962 (IU's was 1968, of course).

(OK - feel free to make excuses about about Minny's "schedule being easier" or whatever....)
 
Re: "Can he coach them up?"

No excuses....other than Kill is a better HC and has experience as a an HC with a staff that has traveled with him. He is one helluva coach. Those components....especially with staff intact make a big difference. OUr record did not show it last year....but we are a better team and will be even better next year.
 
I think the phrases...

"coach them up", "can't coach", and "needs to coach better" need to be banned here (especially on the basketball boards). Of course that would require people to actually specify instead of just ranting, so that won't happen.
 
Re: "Can he coach them up?"

I agree Loyal....I am VERY optimistic....but am desperate for that Bowl appearance to take us to the next level....!

mad.r191677.gif
 
Kill vs CKW is not an apples to apples comparison

Kill is a seasoned HC and CKW is new to the role. It will take some time for this to play out. Getting your feet wet in the B1G is not easy. Glass took a chance-an educated one-and it seems to be paying off. Talent level is at an all time high. Wins will come. Anybody who can't see that the QB situation Sudfeld last year and Tre breaking his leg his Freshman year left a win or two on the field suffers from severe myopia, IMO.
 
Re: Kill vs CKW is not an apples to apples comparison

Here we go....many defended BL, Gerry Dinardo, Mallory at DC & others along the same lines...fine!

But this is a bottom-line business....(&the offense was - face it - sluggish before Sud went out....)

Look: I DON'T wish to start a big fight here, only to point out that saying that "the talent has improved" ONLY makes sense ONCE THE BOTTOM LINE IMPROVES, and that that SHOULDN'T years to see...!
 
Re: "Can he coach them up?"


Originally posted by codylance:
Yeah, that is the question.......the proof is in the pudding....so far, the wins in the CKW era have been 1,4,5,& 4....while Jerry Kill has managed - what? - three Bowls in the same amount of time...? ....at a program that hasn't seen a Rose Bowl since 1962 (IU's was 1968, of course).

(OK - feel free to make excuses about about Minny's "schedule being easier" or whatever....)
Click to expand...
Minny missed a bowl game the year prior to Kill's arrival, but they had been to bowls in 9 out of the 10 years before that. That's more indicative of the program Kill took over than the time since their last Rose Bowl.

Kill may not have take over a great program, but it was light years ahead of the one Wilson got.
 
Re: Kill vs CKW is not an apples to apples comparison

codylance, I enjoy reading most of your comments and can tell that you are passionate about IU football and I like that, but I don't think your opinion on program development is fair in this case. To each his own, I guess. In reading your posts on the subject over the last year or so it has become apparent that you may not be seeing the entire picture. Its frustrating having to read those types of comments over and over again. It's even more frustrating to hear people that I'm seated by at the games make similar types of negative comments. I just shake my head, feel a little sorry for them, and realize that they just don't get it; even though they think they would make a much better head coach or athletic director than the ones we have.

I think Omari Stringer's quote was very telling:

"The relationship I have built with the coaches has been pretty good," Stringer said. "They have been recruiting me since my sophomore year so our relationship has definitely grown. I have gotten to know Coach Patton, Coach Knorr and Coach Wilson pretty well."

That quote demonstrates why it takes so much time to build a solid program the right way. It's just not realistic to come in and flip a switch and get a guy like Omari Stringer to come to IU when the relationships haven't been forged, especially at a program that has been generally off the radar for so long. And if a "switch" would have just been flipped the first couple of years there would likely be skepticism as to how long it would last without a solid network and foundation in place. Relationships have to be built with young players, parents and high school coaches and that takes time, trust and proven results. Coach Wilson and staff started talking with Stringer in 2012. It takes that long to get the types of guys you really want. In fact, I would argue that the program is still in the process of building to the point where they can really land the types of overall talent that Coach Wilson ultimately envisions. I won't pretend that it's not frustrating at times. Don't get me wrong, I want to win as bad as anyone on here but I do see the big picture and I like the way its shaping up. I won't even get into scheduling on this post but there are so many more elements than talent when it comes to consistently winning in college football. And even scheduling takes time to get it where you ideally want it to be.

Talent improvement, or infusion, in football comes at a different pace than in basketball and most other sports at this level. I know some would point out that the juniors referenced in an earlier post would be better served if they were going to be RS Sophomores in 2015. It would have probably been better for them to have grown into their positions rather than be thrown out there their Freshman year out of necessity. Allen didn't even play a full season due to injury. We know that Kenney wasn't ready. Even Latham has needed time to adjust. Bottom line, I think the IU football program is progressing quite nicely. Coach Wilson is building a program that can sustain a level of play that will have us all very pleased in the near future. I feel much better about the future of IU football now than I have ever felt in my lifetime, and that includes the early 1990's.

I am proud of this team, proud of the staff, proud to be a football season ticket holder. GO IU!
This post was edited on 2/3 2:09 PM by indyclark
 
Re: Kill vs CKW is not an apples to apples comparison

Indyclark just nailed it. Best post I've seen here on the free board in a long time! Impatience has gotten us nowhere in the past. Time to have a little patience and see where we end up.
 
Randy Cross said today on a local sports talk station . . .

that the jump from high school to the college game is more drastic than the jump from college to the NFL. Coaching them up, plus getting enough good athletes with the requisite physical maturity all at the same time, does take time . . . it requires the development of the program through developing large numbers of really good athletes, not just recruiting guys to fill holes in the two-deep. We need a completely different mentality, as fans, from what we're used to. CKW gets it even if we don't . . . hopefully we can grow the general fan base's sophistication as well as numbers over time.
 
Cross also said that 83% of the players in this year's Super Bowl . . ..

were three star recruits or lower coming out of high school. High school does not define football players . . . it just gets them opportunities.
 
Re: "Can he coach them up?"

What if those win totals had been 1,4,6,8. What would your mindset be then? Year three was one play from being bowl eligible and last year I don't think at least 7 and maybe even 8 wins was out of the question if Sudfeld had stayed healthy. Some bad luck combined with some bad decisions have hidden the progress. You are right though this year needs to be big. Not just knocking on the door again but busting it in. This staff no matter what else can be said has these guys playing hard and with no quit in them whatsoever. I see big things ahead.
 
I don't disagree, but...

...I do think you have to talent that's up to its competition, and I'm not sure Wilson really has had that yet.

You can just about write the first year off. Between defections, guys getting kicked off, and upperclassmen who were just filling uniforms, you really didn't have talent that was D1-ready yet let alone B10-ready. And year 2 seemed to be an exercise in replacing a lot of the year 1 guys. Plus losing your starting QB in the 2nd game didn't help.

Year 3 was a lot about coaching. You can say 1 or 2 plays from bowl eligibility, but a competent defense would've made it so it wasn't just 1 or 2 plays. Problems were identified and addressed, though. I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt and another season to see real results.

Last year, to me, was the year that showed how much work IU has to do to get and stay competitive. One injury, two graduations, and one early move to the NFL should not have the effect that it did on the team. It almost felt like a dial back to year two where you're still building depth.

The sad thing is I think the squad is still two recruiting classes from having adequate talent depth around the field. We may not be able to judge Wilson solely on coaching until 2016.

All that said, the counterargument is Wilson has enough talent to win winnable games and a good coach finds ways to win winnable games with the talent he has. That's Kill's reputation. IU has sadly left lots of winnable games on the table in Wilson's era.

Barring unforeseen disaster, the excuses start getting slimmer next year and are gone by 2016.
 
Re: I don't disagree, but...


IUninethree - great post. I agree with your assessments. What worries me a little (and this is looking too far ahead) is the QB situation for 2016. Barring an unforeseen situation, Nate moves on and you're either dealing with a RS Freshman or Sophomore at QB.
 
Re: What will be said.....

......if we go 3-9 this season?
We are heading in the right direction but the fan base isn't sophisticated enough?
 
Re: Kill vs CKW is not an apples to apples comparison

Originally posted by codylance:
Here we go....many defended BL, Gerry Dinardo, Mallory at DC & others along the same lines...fine!

But this is a bottom-line business....(&the offense was - face it - sluggish before Sud went out....)

Look: I DON'T wish to start a big fight here, only to point out that saying that "the talent has improved" ONLY makes sense ONCE THE BOTTOM LINE IMPROVES, and that that SHOULDN'T years to see...!
Click to expand...
Ask David Cutliff how long it should take. I like what CKW is doing with the program. From my perspective, the biggest issue with the offense this year was the wide receivers not creating space and getting open, running the wrong route, or dropping balls. Suddy struggled early in the year against weaker competition. once he went down we did not have much of a chance.

I think CKW also recognizes the need for good WR, which is evidenced by the number of receivers he is recruiting for this class. I am hopeful he can turn it into a bowl season next year and really get some mojo going. If he does get to a bowl, look for a contract extension. Hopefully, it will be a two or three year extension versus the monster extension Crean received. I also hope they really up the assistant salary pool. We really need to start paying all of the coaches better or we are going to remain at the bottom of the barrel.
 
Re: The problem with your analysis......

....is that it ignores that the rest of the conference is gaining ground as well.
You point out that IU is progressing, which I don't disagree, but so are other teams (with a lot more success behind them to boot). We are getting a better calibre of recruit than we have seen at anytime in recent memory. However, as other teams are also progressing in the recruiting world, we must rely on something else to provide an edge. Will that come from coaching?
All other things being equal, the factor to consider is the coaching. Do we have an edge there? I think the jury is still out.
 
Re: I think you and I have a bet for next season......

......I said no more than 3 wins on the season. I believe you said at least 6 wins. We'll see.
 
Wait...no more than 3 wins...next year?

Based on what? Hell, we won 4 this year with all the crap that happened.
 
Well deserved Congrats to our staff...

We finish 1-7 and have 6th best recruiting class in Big 10? Well done indeed.
 
I think you're confused . . .

on several levels.

If we have a bet, it's news to me . . . but I'll bet you that IU will certainly have more than 3 wins next year, in football. Lunch . . . at Mother Bears or Nicks.
 
Thanx, Indy, appreciate your remarks, but all I am saying is EITHER:

1. The talent really IS improving somewhat (which I actually believe ).....in which case the field coaching has - let's be candid - been lackluster at best, and not even quite as good as - say - Bill Lynch (wins: 7,3,4,5) or much better than G. Dinardo (3.2.3) NEITHER of whom had the facilities, faculty support, talent, etc., that CKW & crew has had, right?!?

OR:

2. The talent that has been recruited has NOT been quite as goodas we all think (or has left early for whatever reason - fully 6 of the top 12 guys IU counted as "committed" as recently as 2103 are no longer on the roster [Taj Williams, D. Chestnut, M. Swain, D. Kenney, Kris Smith, Myles Graham] and 8 of 24 altogether, and 2012 was not much better- as MM documents.)

OK - I GET that the hard-luck Hoosiers lost some close games (but the won some they could have easily lost also) and had TWO QBs go out in ONE GAME (!) (tho tO$U managed to win an Nat Championship when their top 2 guys went down....and other teams had 1-2 QBs go down & still made bowls) but all IU needed - a month after Iowa - was to score ONE TOUCHDOWN ON OFFENSE (!) at home against PSU but couldn't manage to do it....Heck,they couldn't even score more than 15 points at home against Maryland with all QBs healthy...couldn't beat a demoralized UM whom everybody was beating, etc...

(Someone on here whom I respect [a mainly-BB-guy] suggested that all IU needs to do is schedule "crap" non-conf teams in order to go to a Bowl. ...But IU went 3-1 non-conf last year...and BL went 4-0 every year - except for Ball State [ouch!] and STILL only made one Bowl...it's beating the "crap" B1G teams which needs to happen...!!!)

Yes - I agree - the staff does extremely well generating a "family atmosphere", using the improved stadium/facilities, building relationships, etc, and I applaud them for that....!!

But results just HAVE to translate to to field/win column sooner or later, or FG will have a decision to make....!

And - remember - if worse came to worse - FG could go to a HC Frey, Knorr, McCullough or NoJo and PRESERVE all of the "family atmosphere" etc. ...It NEEDN'T be another "rebuilding" effort,....so much as a tweaking of the OC or HC to get better organized and to where we want to be....




Look: I fully expect - as I said during what I regarded as horrendous coaching (e.g.- not letting the QB ever keep the ball on the read option; not - for 7 straight quarters - doing play-action pass-fakes with the 2nd best RB in the USA in the backfield, etc. UGH! Don't get me started!!) down the B1G stretch last year....that IU will win at least 6 next season (as Illinois & Minny& Marshall did last year) and go to a Bowl....

But, as Big Red and others point out-----------> IU cannot forever set its sights low and tacitly accept mediocrity or things will go on as they always have with the IU football program.....

This post was edited on 2/4 11:48 AM by codylance
 
Re: Wait...no more than 3 wins...next year?

Well... we DO lose two RBs with 3+ years experience each...(remember when people said losing our top 3 WRs wouldn't hurt because the "speed" guys & the new guys would replace them seamlessly?) and we do lose a couple MORE experienced WRs....lose BOTH our starting CBs, a very good Richardson, our starting center,etc...


But I'm NOT that pessimistic: I 'll say 6-7 wins with a Knorr in his second year, and MAYBE a passing game which is less-than-terrible - supplemented - I HOPE (!) with a more-experienced Zander running a bit of option & being allowed to KEEP it once in a while...!!!
.

This post was edited on 2/4 12:10 PM by codylance

This post was edited on 2/4 12:11 PM by codylance
 
So you see Zander starting next year


Originally posted by codylance:
Well... we DO lose two RBs with 3+ years experience each...(remember when people said lose our top 3 WRs wouldn't hurt because the "speed" guys & the new guys would replace them seamlessly?) and we do lose a couple MORE experienced WRs....lose BOTH our starting CBs, a very good Richardson, our starting center,etc...


But I'm that pessimistic: I 'll say 6-7 wins with a Knorr in his second year, and MAYBE a passing game which is less-than-terrible passing game - supplemented - I HOPE (!) with a more-experienced Zander running a bit of option & being allowed to KEEP it once in a while...!!!
Click to expand...
Zander running the option? If Sudfeld stays healthy, Zander never sees the field unless its garbage time.
 
I could see Zander . . .

or Covington playing the role that we expected Tre to play last year, i.e., a change of pace guy who can pass or run and who will take advantage of the run option on occasion.

Last year we couldn't afford to expose Nate to injury running the option because we had zero backups ready. Next year we ought to have two, maybe three (if King pans out), backups and at least two of them can run.

Zander doesn't have to start to be effective when we need him to be effective. Same for Covington.
 
Re: Thanx, Indy, appreciate your remarks, but all I am saying is EITHER:


I would pretty much guarantee that Coach Wilson has at least two and probably three years left no matter what. I would also say that Glass will end up extending him before he gets to the 7th year.
 
Re: So you see Zander starting next year

I think Zander or Covington or maybe even Hale will play in certain situations..... as many coaches now who run our offense (with the read-option look handoff) either use a DT guy, or - like Cal, A&M, and others - have BOTH a drop-back guy and a QB who can pull it out of the RB's belly and run with it...which Zander can do well if they let him....

That is, unless CKW decides to DROP the option-look and become a straight power run team a la Stanford or Minny or Mich State....though even teams like Wiscy & Penn St. & Mich St (the last two - after all - went after DT-guy from Indy T. Stevens) are shifting AWAY from the straight power run game and towards the option-look spread which IU and lately even the O$U runs...

CKW - being old school - seems to me to be the kind of guy who chafed a bit when coach Littrell ran his aerial circus/option-look handoff game, and scaled back to a lot of straight runs/handoffs last year (not even doing in play-action some games[!}), so maybe with bigger O-linemen D. Herron (6'5" 325) and 4-star Tim Gardner (6'5" 320?) coming in from redshirt this year he will ask coach Frey to try to gear up the power-run game and drop the charade of the option-look if our QB isn't ever going to carry it anyway....

We'll see.
 
Re: Thanx, Indy, appreciate your remarks, but all I am saying is EITHER:

Even IF he doesn't make a Bowl with all that GREAT TALENT IU now has?!?

If so, FG is committed to continuing the tradition of IU Football mediocrity...
 
Re: Not Sope.....it was JohnsyRick. Haven't seen him in a while. nm

You are correct, but BRCB is a little off , he made the statement that we wouldn't win more than 3, so I offered a bet with the winnings to charity. I never said how many games we would win, just that it would be more than 3. I don't like to predict game or season outcomes, but I am confident we will win more than 3.
 
Kill also told Minny when hired

that it would take him 7 years to get his program in place. I heard that late last football season and thought that number was interesting since it is the same number of years for CW at Indiana.

I'm glad we are following the plan of 7 years. Yeah, it happens faster at other schools but they are not Indiana in football.

I'm looking forward to years 6 and 7 under the Wilson leadership. He will and is getting better every year.
 
Re: Thanx, Indy, appreciate your remarks, but all I am saying is EITHER:

Tell that to David Cutcliffe at Duke, didn't have a winning record until year 6, and now has won 10 and 9 in consecutive years. Doesn't sound mediocre to me.
 
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