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Happy Easter.

Yes, well, you've absolutely got my central concern straight -- I'm upset about all the Mooslims who go running around on your lawn "Allahu Akbar-ing" while committing terrorist events. That's what I was talking about.

It's obvious that I wasted my time in this thread. I apologize to everyone else for that. Never mind.

Who are those who "blame" God for what they do today? I don't see your point. I guess I am aware of many who give God credit and thanks for their accomplishments and good fortune, but I am unaware of anybody who blames God. No need to apologize, just explain your point.
 
The staging was near-perfect.

Legend was really good in spots and didn't have the rock chops for other parts, although I appreciated he brought a different interpretation.

Judas (Brandon Victor Dixon) was outstanding, although I like Judas to be more intense through than how he portrayed it. He just crushed the title song.

Thought everyone else was great, despite some audio issues.

Agree that the staging was fantastic and that Dixon was awesome. The digital feel of the cameras they use for these things throw me sometimes, but I thought they did a fantastic job overall with it. The orchestra was amazing and some of the camera work was pretty epic. I liked Legend and thought that the closing number was a home run.
 
Agree that the staging was fantastic and that Dixon was awesome. The digital feel of the cameras they use for these things throw me sometimes, but I thought they did a fantastic job overall with it. The orchestra was amazing and some of the camera work was pretty epic. I liked Legend and thought that the closing number was a home run.
I've been rewatching some of the numbers, and I really think it was Norm Lewis (Caiaphas) and Jin Ha (Annas) who stole the show. They were brilliant together.
 
I've been rewatching some of the numbers, and I really think it was Norm Lewis (Caiaphas) and Jin Ha (Annas) who stole the show. They were brilliant together.



They were very good, but this is the best version of the title track I've ever heard. Even beats Carl Anderson (RIP).

Norm Lewis is a badass though. Loved him as Javert in the 25th anniversary concert of Les Mis.
 
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If Jesus' sacrifice was necessary for the salvation of humanity, then Judas' betrayal was a necessary step for putting God's plan into action.

Ennhhhh . . . not a necessary step, no. It was a step that occurred as the story played out, but Judas' betrayal specifically was not necessary. It is entirely consistent with Judas' sinful character - not any where close to an heroic one - both as portrayed in scripture and in Jesus Christ Superstar. It was an element to the story that - some would say - God used to bring the arresting authorities to Jesus . . .

. . . but Judas didn't act at God's behest or even for the purpose of acting in concert with God's plan for Jesus' crucifixion or resurrection. Instead he acted entirely on his own - exercising his free will - for his own agenda.

Judas, as portrayed last night in NBC's broadcast of Jesus Christ Superstar (and consistent with the Judas in scripture), was a savvy social and budding political activist who saw Jesus as a means to a particular social and political result for Palestine generally and Israel in particular. You can see it in his criticism of Jesus for accepting an anointing with oil worth 300 silver pieces that could have been used to feed the poor. In scripture and in the performance last night, it was because he substituted his own judgment for Christ's and God's that he found himself - briefly - believing that 30 pieces of silver was a sufficient incentive to tip his judgment - trending in this direction already - in favor of handing Jesus over to the authorities.

That God was able to use Judas's betrayal to serve God's plan for the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus doesn't make him a hero, and it doesn't make him a victim of God's plan either. God knew that Judas - or perhaps someone else, based on what he has known of human beings for their entire existence - would serve this purpose, and he just let Judas fill that role - of his own free will.

Hero? No. Tragic figure? Oh yes . . . and most of us are far, far more like Judas in that we fall for our own illusions and fool ourselves with them far more than we come close to living in the kingdom of God, on earth, as it is in heaven . . . .
 
Yes, you're right. That's stupid.

Good night, everyone. My bad. Have a happy bunnies distributing chocolates day. Forget I was ever here.

Rock, I apologize for drawing you back to this thread, albeit for just a brief moment. If you're interested in a fairly balanced view of who the Jesus of scripture was, I suggest that you might want to find Zealot by Reza Aslan. It is not a panacea . . . it will not answer the questions you have regarding evangelical Christians or a host of other questions that one might have about Christianity as it exists in many forms today. It will offer a relatively balanced - in other words not an apologetics approach - perspective on who Jesus was, as recorded in scripture with some general reliance on relatively contemporary secular sources.

You may find of particular interest Aslan's description of Jesus as a radical nativist acting on behalf of oppressed Jews under Roman empire and local Herodian rulers. If you finish the book, you might find very helpful Aslan's treatment of the differences between the early Christian church in Jerusalem under the leadership of Jesus's brother, James, and the Christian church that developed as a result of Paul's writings.

God speed and God bless . . . ;)
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/zealot-reza-aslan/1114795531#/
 
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I don't think you can judge whether or not you wasted your time according to the response from the baddest of bad faith posters.

You guys are cast from the same mold. The least bit of questioning about a post, or should I say maieutics, and you both immediately go into a butthurt crouch, launch an ad hominem attack, and indignantly withdraw from the discussion.

If my posts are so bad, you should be able to easily dismiss them without all the butthurt. All your posturing tells me you have pretty shallow arguments and no deep thinking.
 
I've been rewatching some of the numbers, and I really think it was Norm Lewis (Caiaphas) and Jin Ha (Annas) who stole the show. They were brilliant together.

I thought Pilate portrayed his very difficult part - there is no melodic measure in his entire role - with exceptional skill and grace. It was a marvelous performance in a difficult role . . . .
 
Ennhhhh . . . not a necessary step, no. It was a step that occurred as the story played out, but Judas' betrayal specifically was not necessary. It is entirely consistent with Judas' sinful character - not any where close to an heroic one - both as portrayed in scripture and in Jesus Christ Superstar. It was an element to the story that - some would say - God used to bring the arresting authorities to Jesus . . .

. . . but Judas didn't act at God's behest or even for the purpose of acting in concert with God's plan for Jesus' crucifixion or resurrection. Instead he acted entirely on his own - exercising his free will - for his own agenda.

Judas, as portrayed last night in NBC's broadcast of Jesus Christ Superstar (and consistent with the Judas in scripture), was a savvy social and budding political activist who saw Jesus as a means to a particular social and political result for Palestine generally and Israel in particular. You can see it in his criticism of Jesus for accepting an anointing with oil worth 300 silver pieces that could have been used to feed the poor. In scripture and in the performance last night, it was because he substituted his own judgment for Christ's and God's that he found himself - briefly - believing that 30 pieces of silver was a sufficient incentive to tip his judgment - trending in this direction already - in favor of handing Jesus over to the authorities.

That God was able to use Judas's betrayal to serve God's plan for the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus doesn't make him a hero, and it doesn't make him a victim of God's plan either. God knew that Judas - or perhaps someone else, based on what he has known of human beings for their entire existence - would serve this purpose, and he just let Judas fill that role - of his own free will.

Hero? No. Tragic figure? Oh yes . . . and most of us are far, far more like Judas in that we fall for our own illusions and fool ourselves with them far more than we come close to living in the kingdom of God, on earth, as it is in heaven . . . .

I am still not sure of the free will part. If Judas didn't betray, you assume someone else would. I'm not sure I can buy into that. Someone had to effectively betray Jesus. If they were as effective at betraying Him as Hitler assassins were at killing Hitler, it wouldn't have mattered. The argument I would make is that God isn't bound by time, and thus knew what free will choice Judas made from our beginning.

I have a Baptist friend who absolutely refuses Easter Sunday. Jesus had to die for 3 full days, thus He had to rise on Resurrection Monday. He also refuses the term Easter itself as it referred to a pagan holiday of Rome. It is interesting how far apart our various Christian branches are from one another.
 
I am still not sure of the free will part. If Judas didn't betray, you assume someone else would. I'm not sure I can buy into that. Someone had to effectively betray Jesus. If they were as effective at betraying Him as Hitler assassins were at killing Hitler, it wouldn't have mattered. The argument I would make is that God isn't bound by time, and thus knew what free will choice Judas made from our beginning.

I have a Baptist friend who absolutely refuses Easter Sunday. Jesus had to die for 3 full days, thus He had to rise on Resurrection Monday. He also refuses the term Easter itself as it referred to a pagan holiday of Rome. It is interesting how far apart our various Christian branches are from one another.

OK. I have no issue with what you've said. I disagree with it, but that's OK . . .

. . . can we disagree and still be friends? :)
 
I am still not sure of the free will part. If Judas didn't betray, you assume someone else would. I'm not sure I can buy into that. Someone had to effectively betray Jesus. If they were as effective at betraying Him as Hitler assassins were at killing Hitler, it wouldn't have mattered. The argument I would make is that God isn't bound by time, and thus knew what free will choice Judas made from our beginning.

I have a Baptist friend who absolutely refuses Easter Sunday. Jesus had to die for 3 full days, thus He had to rise on Resurrection Monday. He also refuses the term Easter itself as it referred to a pagan holiday of Rome. It is interesting how far apart our various Christian branches are from one another.

PS, MrsSope reminds me that scripture says that Jesus rose on the third day, not that he rose after 3 days. For the record, she and I were both raised Baptists. We're Presbyterians now.

When asked in a Presbyterian Sunday school class what the difference between Baptists and Presbyterians is, my theologian friend said that within his former Presbyterian seminary faculty they used to joke that Presbyterians are just Baptists that have learned to read. When asked what the difference between Presbyterians and Episcopalians is, he said that the faculty used to joke that Episcopalians are Presbyterians whose investment portfolios have turned out well.
 
OK. I have no issue with what you've said. I disagree with it, but that's OK . . .

. . . can we disagree and still be friends? :)

No way. OK, maybe. Faith is tricky for me, on everything else I love the idea of following the evidence. Christianity has as a clause there can't be proof be cause proof would invalidate faith. So it is always difficult for me hovering somewhere between agnostic and Christian. Judas has always been a real issue. Aside from the 2 different suicide stories, there is the point that we are discussing. If we accept free will, Judas may not betray Jesus. If he doesn't, how does scripture fulfill? I'm not sure I've ever heard a good answer to that. If we assume the multiverse theory is correct, there are undoubtedly multiverses where no one betrays Jesus. I guess that can be solved by God writing a different prophecy. But in our multiverse, I struggle with it and the best I can come up with is God isn't bound by time since He created time. But even that feels like a jury rigged system.
 
PS, MrsSope reminds me that scripture says that Jesus rose on the third day, not that he rose after 3 days. For the record, she and I were both raised Baptists. We're Presbyterians now.

When asked in a Presbyterian Sunday school class what the difference between Baptists and Presbyterians is, my theologian friend said that within his former Presbyterian seminary faculty they used to joke that Presbyterians are just Baptists that have learned to read. When asked what the difference between Presbyterians and Episcopalians is, he said that the faculty used to joke that Episcopalians are Presbyterians whose investment portfolios have turned out well.

Matthew 12:40, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth". Sunday is not 3 nights after Friday. Mind you, that is his argument, not mine.
 
No way. OK, maybe. Faith is tricky for me, on everything else I love the idea of following the evidence. Christianity has as a clause there can't be proof be cause proof would invalidate faith. So it is always difficult for me hovering somewhere between agnostic and Christian. Judas has always been a real issue. Aside from the 2 different suicide stories, there is the point that we are discussing. If we accept free will, Judas may not betray Jesus. If he doesn't, how does scripture fulfill? I'm not sure I've ever heard a good answer to that. If we assume the multiverse theory is correct, there are undoubtedly multiverses where no one betrays Jesus. I guess that can be solved by God writing a different prophecy. But in our multiverse, I struggle with it and the best I can come up with is God isn't bound by time since He created time. But even that feels like a jury rigged system.

Well, if we accept free will it is possible that Judas might not betray Jesus. (That's the way I read your sentence . . . I hope not to be putting words in your mouth.) But the fact is that he did betray Jesus, which also is entirely consistent with free will.

If you accept the notion - classical Christian theology - that Original Sin is man's substitution of his own judgment for that of God's, which results in/from that classical sin of Pride, the path to Judas' betrayal of Jesus is relatively clear; it was the direct product of the exercise of his free will in the context of his prideful nature.

You're right in that scripture doesn't directly explain this, but the explanation I've offered is both consistent with Judas' actions in the crucifixion story, and pretty much the rest of what happens in scripture from Adam's eating of Forbidden Fruit in Eden on.
 
I am still not sure of the free will part. If Judas didn't betray, you assume someone else would. I'm not sure I can buy into that. Someone had to effectively betray Jesus. If they were as effective at betraying Him as Hitler assassins were at killing Hitler, it wouldn't have mattered. The argument I would make is that God isn't bound by time, and thus knew what free will choice Judas made from our beginning.

I have a Baptist friend who absolutely refuses Easter Sunday. Jesus had to die for 3 full days, thus He had to rise on Resurrection Monday. He also refuses the term Easter itself as it referred to a pagan holiday of Rome. It is interesting how far apart our various Christian branches are from one another.

I mostly agree. Like Christmas, Easter is a loose adaptation of another holiday. Yet, as the Fish pointed out in his first post, and I agreed with, the whole story of the resurrection and forgiveness does not exist for purposes of teaching a historical event--for me anyway. It is a teaching about renewal of faith, a recognition that we are not alone. The promise of the resurrection is not found in historical events, it is found in faith. For me the promise is a powerful message.

One of the best, and most powerful, Easter sermons I remember took less than 90 seconds. It went something like this: Imagine you are walking along a path and come up on a wrapped gift. Attached to the gift is a note to the effect that the gift will provide eternal life, comfort, and peace. All you need to do is open it. Nothing more is required of us. End of sermon.

That sermon was one of the things that cost that preacher his job. A personal note: I previously mentioned here that I was once hit by a drunk driver while bicycling. This was a few weeks after that sermon. As I lay in the ditch at the side of the road, I wondered if I would ever walk again. That same preacher visited me the next day in the hospital. I learned more from him during those few visits about faith than all my history of church attendance combined. With him (and the hospital chaplain with whom I became very good friends) I dispensed with the anger and instead used that energy to find something inside me to move me forward. When I took my first steps and then a lap around the hospital corridor with the chaplain at my side and a walker in my hands, my emotional release was overwhelming and I knew then what the Gift was.

I suppose part of the reason I am as I am about inner strength and not focusing on anger and "justice" for others is because of the events I described. We shouldn't have to be hit by a drunk driver to experience this. Sadly, many haven't found the gift.
 
Matthew 12:40, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth". Sunday is not 3 nights after Friday. Mind you, that is his argument, not mine.

Understood.

He also drank the cup of human sins on Maundy Thursday. So there's that as a consistency if you interpret Jesus as being in the "heart of the earth" in light of the doctrine of kenosis rather than a literal interpretation of being buried after the crucifixion.

I'm not saying your friend is wrong, just offering a different opportunity for understanding the text.
 
I mostly agree. Like Christmas, Easter is a loose adaptation of another holiday. Yet, as the Fish pointed out in his first post, and I agreed with, the whole story of the resurrection and forgiveness does not exist for purposes of teaching a historical event--for me anyway. It is a teaching about renewal of faith, a recognition that we are not alone. The promise of the resurrection is not found in historical events, it is found in faith. For me the promise is a powerful message.

One of the best, and most powerful, Easter sermons I remember took less than 90 seconds. It went something like this: Imagine you are walking along a path and come up on a wrapped gift. Attached to the gift is a note to the effect that the gift will provide eternal life, comfort, and peace. All you need to do is open it. Nothing more is required of us. End of sermon.

That sermon was one of the things that cost that preacher his job. A personal note: I previously mentioned here that I was once hit by a drunk driver while bicycling. This was a few weeks after that sermon. As I lay in the ditch at the side of the road, I wondered if I would ever walk again. That same preacher visited me the next day in the hospital. I learned more from him during those few visits about faith than all my history of church attendance combined. With him (and the hospital chaplain with whom I became very good friends) I dispensed with the anger and instead used that energy to find something inside me to move me forward. When I took my first steps and then a lap around the hospital corridor with the chaplain at my side and a walker in my hands, my emotional release was overwhelming and I knew then what the Gift was.

I suppose part of the reason I am as I am about inner strength and not focusing on anger and "justice" for others is because of the events I described. We shouldn't have to be hit by a drunk driver to experience this. Sadly, many haven't found the gift.
Scripture speaks extensively and at times intensively about justice and good news for the poor, both in the Old Testament and the New. We all would be well-served to pay attention to those words.

The issue I have is the degree of presumptuousness and arrogance that some bring to their insistence on particular results - worldly results - that they contend would constitute "justice" without first subjecting their analysis of what "justice" is to both worldly and spiritual standards before pronouncing what the results should be. In my view this is the problem with much of what passes for social activism on all sides of the political and social spectra . . . we have concluded that declaring winners and losers is more important than reconciliation. This is, of course, a primary problem here on the Cooler as it is more broadly in society . . . .

See my thread regarding the 60 Minutes story about David Barenboim for more on this subject.
 
Scripture speaks extensively and at times intensively about justice and good news for the poor, both in the Old Testament and the New. We all would be well-served to pay attention to those words.

The issue I have is the degree of presumptuousness and arrogance that some bring to their insistence on particular results - worldly results - that they contend would constitute "justice" without first subjecting their analysis of what "justice" is to both worldly and spiritual standards before pronouncing what the results should be. In my view this is the problem with much of what passes for social activism on all sides of the political and social spectra . . . we have concluded that declaring winners and losers is more important than reconciliation. This is, of course, a primary problem here on the Cooler as it is more broadly in society . . . .

See my thread regarding the 60 Minutes story about David Barenboim for more on this subject.

I've posted a couple of times about "justice," what it means, and why we seek it. First of all, the word justice has no meaning when we use it in terms of "social justice," "economic justice," or "no justice no peace". Like fairness it's almost entirely subjective. This is why I agree with you that reconciliation, compromise, and consensus is so important in how we think about public policy. Sadly, many are elected on platforms of "fighting" for some constituency with no compromise.
 
You guys are cast from the same mold. The least bit of questioning about a post, or should I say maieutics, and you both immediately go into a butthurt crouch, launch an ad hominem attack, and indignantly withdraw from the discussion.

If my posts are so bad, you should be able to easily dismiss them without all the butthurt. All your posturing tells me you have pretty shallow arguments and no deep thinking.
Posturing? Butthurt? I don't know what the f*** you are talking about. I'm just trying to convince one of our good posters not to let himself be run off by the likes of you.
 
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I've posted a couple of times about "justice," what it means, and why we seek it. First of all, the word justice has no meaning when we use it in terms of "social justice," "economic justice," or "no justice no peace". Like fairness it's almost entirely subjective. This is why I agree with you that reconciliation, compromise, and consensus is so important in how we think about public policy. Sadly, many are elected on platforms of "fighting" for some constituency with no compromise.

I don't think that you and I are talking about "justice" in the same way, and as as result we aren't talking about the same sort of justice.

My sense - and I don't mean to put words in your mouth here, I'm just advising you what I'm getting from your post - is that your sense of justice is what lawyers do, in that they see competing interests and try to work out an arrangement that keeps some semblance of civil peace by having both parties to a dispute recognize that the other has some degree of merit (more or less, depending on the underlying evidence) and adjust remedies accordingly. (If I'm wrong on this, my apologies . . . but that's what I'm getting from your post.)

That's not what "justice" is when scripture is using that term, in my view. "Justice" has more to do with what God expects of us in our relationships with each other, probably interpreted best in accordance with the Great Commandment (which for me has recently become to be relatively synonymous with the concept of cognitive empathy that iuwclurker has mentioned elsewhere on the board and a related concept of compassionate empathy, which is different from emotional empathy). For some good reading in that vein I suggest Kierkegaard's treatment of "as yourself" in his Works of Love). And the application of "justice" is primarily associated in scripture with not exploiting other people . . . economically, financially, sexually and every other way you can think of.

To arrive at this type of justice is like focusing a camera through two lenses, not one, with one lens being a worldly lens - what makes sense on the relative merits of the evidence, much like I suspect you were describing - and the the other lens being through God's perspective on things.

By the way, the public figure who most unabashedly put theology (as opposed to mere religion) into presidential policy was Abraham Lincoln, according to a fascinating book by Elton Trueblood (former president of Earlham College) I am currently reading. Trueblood quotes Reinhold Niebuhr's observations regarding Lincoln's exercise constant vigilance with respect to this dual lens approach to decision-making:

"This combination of moral resoluteness about the immediate issues with religious awareness of another dimension of meaning and judgment must be regarded as almost a perfect model of the difficult but not impossible task of remaining loyal and responsible toward the moral treasures of a free civilization on the one hand while yet having some religious vantage point over the struggle."

Trueblood's overall thesis is that Lincoln's greatness as a president derived not only from his brilliance as a politician, but also because Lincoln took the extra step of working toward policies and actions that he was convinced were in concert with God's will. For a good window into this aspect of Lincoln, you might read his Meditation on Divine Will (http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/meditat.htm), which according to Trueblood was the basis for Lincoln's resolution of the larger issue regarding slavery, which took him from a position of compromise and into an insistence on both saving the Union and ending slavery in all US states.
 
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I'm going to obliterate any good will I may have built up with religious people here.

How do those of you who are truly faithful bring yourselves to believe things about the world that you know can't be true? And if you're the sort of person who believes (for example) in intelligent design or the literal truth of the Genesis story, why do you do that? Exactly when and where did God appear on Earth and tell His followers that they must always and forever believe the literal truth of words that would later be stitched together by flawed fallible humans into what has come to be the Bible? When did that happen?
I can't answer on behalf of religious people...but...if you haven't had a look at William James' Varieties of Religious Experience...I highly recommend it. The book describes and catalogues the kinds of experiences that people have that they themselves describe as religious. These experiences are life-altering events that consequently have a profound impact on those who experience them. Truly religious experiences are not products of conscious thought but, rather, shatter and reshape consciousness. If the revelation that the bible is literal truth arrives in the form of a truly religious experience I don't expect that there is much that mere reason is going to do that will touch that deeper truth. It just isn't something one can argue about.
I'm an asshole to doubt that anyone ever arose from any tomb on a day when bunnies deliver chocolates, but how much of the literal truth of what by any rational understanding is a silly story is important to the heart of what you actually believe? Why does the Bible have to be true like an encyclopedia to have spiritual heft? Why couldn't it be transcendentally important in ways that are spiritual and mystical, without giving a single shit whether it's literally correct?

And now that I've given too much offense, why can't faith be about . . . faith? The quiet confidence you're supposed to have when you don't know what the larger purposes are but you feel like maybe a higher power still has room for you.

I'm an agnostic, so what do I know. Still, have a happy Easter, Christians.
I think you raise a good point when you ask "why does the Bible have to be true like an encyclopedia...?" For believers, I expect the bible is true while the encyclopedia is more or less plausible. The complaint that the religious must have with the rationalist might be something like the dispute between a synesthete and someone who is not a synesthete. Moreover, even the act of claiming that the Bible is literal truth is, itself, an act of faith and evangelism. The believers create a religious experience for others as they themselves are moved by the "testimony" of others.
 
I don't think that you and I are talking about "justice" in the same way, and as as result we aren't talking about the same sort of justice.

My sense - and I don't mean to put words in your mouth here, I'm just advising you what I'm getting from your post - is that your sense of justice is what lawyers do, in that they see competing interests and try to work out an arrangement that keeps some semblance of civil peace by having both parties to a dispute recognize that the other has some degree of merit (more or less, depending on the underlying evidence) and adjust remedies accordingly. (If I'm wrong on this, my apologies . . . but that's what I'm getting from your post.)

That's not what "justice" is when scripture is using that term, in my view. "Justice" has more to do with what God expects of us in our relationships with each other, probably interpreted best in accordance with the Great Commandment (which for me has recently become to be relatively synonymous with the concept of cognitive empathy that iuwclurker has mentioned elsewhere on the board and a related concept of compassionate empathy, which is different from emotional empathy). For some good reading in that vein I suggest Kierkegaard's treatment of "as yourself" in his Works of Love). And the application of "justice" is primarily associated in scripture with not exploiting other people . . . economically, financially, sexually and every other way you can think of.

To arrive at this type of justice is like focusing a camera through two lenses, not one, with one lens being a worldly lens - what makes sense on the relative merits of the evidence, much like I suspect you were describing - and the the other lens being through God's perspective on things.

By the way, the public figure who most unabashedly put theology (as opposed to mere religion) into presidential policy was Abraham Lincoln, according to a fascinating book by Elton Trueblood (former president of Earlham College) I am currently reading. Trueblood quotes Reinhold Niebuhr's observations regarding Lincoln's exercise constant vigilance with respect to this dual lens approach to decision-making:

"This combination of moral resoluteness about the immediate issues with religious awareness of another dimension of meaning and judgment must be regarded as almost a perfect model of the difficult but not impossible task of remaining loyal and responsible toward the moral treasures of a free civilization on the one hand while yet having some religious vantage point over the struggle."

Trueblood's overall thesis is that Lincoln's greatness as a president derived not only from his brilliance as a politician, but also because Lincoln took the extra step of working toward policies and actions that he was convinced were in concert with God's will. For a good window into this aspect of Lincoln, you might read his Meditation on Divine Will (http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/meditat.htm), which according to Trueblood was the basis for Lincoln's resolution of the larger issue regarding slavery, which took him from a position of compromise and into an insistence on both saving the Union and ending slavery in all US states.
You wrote, "That's not what "justice" is when scripture is using that term, in my view."

Do you read Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek? If not, you may not know what any of the versions of "the" scripture actually say.
 
Posturing? Butthurt? I don't know what the f*** you are talking about. I'm just trying to convince one of our good posters not to let himself be run off by the likes of you.
I love the Fish. I have disagreed and agreed whit him for years. Political discussion is healthy for the Republic.
 
Ennhhhh . . . not a necessary step, no. It was a step that occurred as the story played out, but Judas' betrayal specifically was not necessary. It is entirely consistent with Judas' sinful character - not any where close to an heroic one - both as portrayed in scripture and in Jesus Christ Superstar. It was an element to the story that - some would say - God used to bring the arresting authorities to Jesus . . .

. . . but Judas didn't act at God's behest or even for the purpose of acting in concert with God's plan for Jesus' crucifixion or resurrection. Instead he acted entirely on his own - exercising his free will - for his own agenda.

Judas, as portrayed last night in NBC's broadcast of Jesus Christ Superstar (and consistent with the Judas in scripture), was a savvy social and budding political activist who saw Jesus as a means to a particular social and political result for Palestine generally and Israel in particular. You can see it in his criticism of Jesus for accepting an anointing with oil worth 300 silver pieces that could have been used to feed the poor. In scripture and in the performance last night, it was because he substituted his own judgment for Christ's and God's that he found himself - briefly - believing that 30 pieces of silver was a sufficient incentive to tip his judgment - trending in this direction already - in favor of handing Jesus over to the authorities.

That God was able to use Judas's betrayal to serve God's plan for the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus doesn't make him a hero, and it doesn't make him a victim of God's plan either. God knew that Judas - or perhaps someone else, based on what he has known of human beings for their entire existence - would serve this purpose, and he just let Judas fill that role - of his own free will.

Hero? No. Tragic figure? Oh yes . . . and most of us are far, far more like Judas in that we fall for our own illusions and fool ourselves with them far more than we come close to living in the kingdom of God, on earth, as it is in heaven . . . .
Since I've already bumped this thread, I went back and read some posts, and somehow missed this one the first time through. I think that is an excellent analysis, and a very good counterpoint to the opinion I offered. I will have to think on this some more, but I will tentatively agree that "tragic figure" is probably a better term than "hero." And it is right of you to point to his free will. Although the gospel stories do suggest Judas was fulfilling a prophecy, and Jesus' prediction of his betrayal could be read to seal his fate, it should be noted that Jesus did not make his prediction until after Judas had already visited the priests and offered to sell him out.

Of course, even recognizing that the betrayal fulfilled a prophecy raises all sorts of thorny issues about free will that go far beyond the texts of the gospel stories. So I'll save all that for some other thread. ;)
 
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