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rocketo

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Feb 23, 2007
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rocketo said:
Reading those comments from past players about the coaches is damning against the former administration, and really reinforces some of the thoughts about past hires. Worth a read…

theathletic.com

Indiana's post-Knight years and Mike Woodson's mission to restore Hoosiers glory

Mike Woodson's team finished with a flourish last season, and expectations are back in Bloomington.
theathletic.com theathletic.com
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Definitely worth the read. Sums up how most of us feel about IU basketball.

Missed this one somehow. Thanks for the post!
 
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SouthBendJim said:
Definitely worth the read. Sums up how most of us feel about IU basketball.

Missed this one somehow. Thanks for the post!
Click to expand...
No sweat. Agree. Clearly CAM didn’t align with our passion of what IU is, and has been for decades.

I also appreciate what CTC tried to do more than I did before. He just didn’t have IT…
 
rocketo said:
Reading those comments from past players about the coaches is damning against the former administration, and really reinforces some of the thoughts about past hires. Worth a read…

theathletic.com

Indiana's post-Knight years and Mike Woodson's mission to restore Hoosiers glory

Mike Woodson's team finished with a flourish last season, and expectations are back in Bloomington.
theathletic.com theathletic.com
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing. No punches pulled with ex players and their disdain for CAM. Especially Hillman. Wow!
 
Stellar stuff … brilliantly sequenced. More home run quotes than HRs that Schawber will hit in the All Star HR derby. Starting with …

Jared Jeffries (IU forward, 2000-02): We’ve lived off ‘we’re Indiana’ for years, but most of the young talent coming out now, they don’t remember any of that. They weren’t alive the last time we won a national championship.

Brian Evans (IU guard, 1992-96): We like to believe we’re bluebloods, but let’s be honest, we’re not bluebloods and haven’t been for a long time. And it honestly bothers me that we’re not.

Joe Hillman (IU guard, 1984-89): They did everything with an eye toward getting away from the things that Bob Knight was about — style of play, a demand of excellence, a pride in what was going on and the mental toughness and ability to overcome things.

Dean Garrett (IU forward, 1986-88): For so long, we’ve been trying to stay away from anybody who had anything to do with Coach Knight.

Hillman: The way I see it, the last 10 years or so, there hasn’t been one kid down there now who understands anything about playing for Indiana.

Jared’s and Hillman’s quotes make great bookends. There’s another quote about CMW demanding excellence. Fans will have much to be thankful for this coming season. Loads of former IU stars are pulling for CMW and the team this season.
 
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TomEric4756 said:
Stellar stuff … brilliantly sequenced. More home run quotes than HRs that Schawber will hit in the All Star HR derby. Starting with …

Jared Jeffries (IU forward, 2000-02): We’ve lived off ‘we’re Indiana’ for years, but most of the young talent coming out now, they don’t remember any of that. They weren’t alive the last time we won a national championship.

Brian Evans (IU guard, 1992-96): We like to believe we’re bluebloods, but let’s be honest, we’re not bluebloods and haven’t been for a long time. And it honestly bothers me that we’re not.

Joe Hillman (IU guard, 1984-89): They did everything with an eye toward getting away from the things that Bob Knight was about — style of play, a demand of excellence, a pride in what was going on and the mental toughness and ability to overcome things.

Dean Garrett (IU forward, 1986-88): For so long, we’ve been trying to stay away from anybody who had anything to do with Coach Knight.

Hillman: The way I see it, the last 10 years or so, there hasn’t been one kid down there now who understands anything about playing for Indiana.

Jared’s and Hillman’s quotes make great bookends. There’s another quote about CMW demanding excellence. Fans will have much to be thankful for this coming season. Loads of former IU stars are pulling for CMW and the team this season.
Click to expand...


Hillman comes off bitter and un-objective with his proclamations. Strong sound bytes but hardly speaks to a complete or reasoned assessment of the dynamics. Particularly struck by his elitist contempt for a decade's worth of Players who suited up in the C & C. He's the right to say it, but that doesn't mean it's right.
 
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rocketo said:
No sweat. Agree. Clearly CAM didn’t align with our passion of what IU is, and has been for decades.

I also appreciate what CTC tried to do more than I did before. He just didn’t have IT…
Click to expand...
I never really questioned CTCs motivations. His methods and results, on the other hand...
 
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aajohn2000 said:
Thank you for sharing. No punches pulled with ex players and their disdain for CAM. Especially Hillman. Wow!
Click to expand...
Yeah. Easy to see the disdain there. Can’t believe this stuff went on. Especially for as long as it did.
 
Relative to the Archie hire, it just seems like such a simple interview question to ask - "What is the Indiana University basketball program all about?" And pretty easy to have a list in the interviewer's mind of what you want to hear to determine if the guy would be a fit, exceptional defense, maximum commitment, refuse to lose, continually seeking perfection, high character, strong leader, and great shooting teams. Then, does the candidate understand and appreciates the history, the importance of the program to the state, etc. Now I suspect Crean interviewed well, he is a natural salesman, but it is pretty clear Archie and Sampson would have failed those interview questions.

So the bigger question is how could an AD get HIS job if he couldn't even ask questions like that? The BOT/Presidents were terrible failures at picking ADs who understood that the essence, rightly or wrongly, of IU athletics is men's basketball. IU men's basketball has to be super competititive every year. Then as AD you go to work on football next, because it has to be the cash cow, and then everything else. That is just the essence of the job.

Dolson seems a lttle better at understanding the priorities, but the jury is out whether he's putting enough emphasis and support/oversight on football. CTA needs guidance and support to prevent/fix his mistakes.
 
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Champs1976 said:
Relative to the Archie hire, it just seems like such a simple interview question to ask - "What is the Indiana University basketball program all about?" And pretty easy to have a list in the interviewer's mind of what you want to hear to determine if the guy would be a fit, exceptional defense, maximum commitment, refuse to lose, continually seeking perfection, high character, strong leader, and great shooting teams. Then, does the candidate understand and appreciates the history, the importance of the program to the state, etc. Now I suspect Crean interviewed well, he is a natural salesman, but it is pretty clear Archie and Sampson would have failed those interview questions.

So the bigger question is how could an AD get HIS job if he couldn't even ask questions like that? The BOT/Presidents were terrible failures at picking ADs who understood that the essence, rightly or wrongly, of IU athletics is men's basketball. IU men's basketball has to be super competititive every year. Then as AD you go to work on football next, because it has to be the cash cow, and then everything else. That is just the essence of the job.

Dolson seems a lttle better at understanding the priorities, but the jury is out whether he's putting enough emphasis and support/oversight on football. CTA needs guidance and support to prevent/fix his mistakes.
Click to expand...
Not long after AM was hired I was at a fundraiser where he was as well. I walked over and shook his hand and wished him the best of luck. I followed with “ it matters here”. He sort of blinked twice uncomfortably and said “excuse me” and walked away.
First red flag.
 
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Courtsensetwo said:
Not long after AM was hired I was at a fundraiser where he was as well. I walked over and shook his hand and wished him the best of luck. I followed with “ it matters here”. He sort of blinked twice uncomfortably and said “excuse me” and walked away.
First red flag.
Click to expand...
The signs were obvious from game 1. Four wasted years.
 
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Champs1976 said:
Relative to the Archie hire, it just seems like such a simple interview question to ask - "What is the Indiana University basketball program all about?" And pretty easy to have a list in the interviewer's mind of what you want to hear to determine if the guy would be a fit, exceptional defense, maximum commitment, refuse to lose, continually seeking perfection, high character, strong leader, and great shooting teams. Then, does the candidate understand and appreciates the history, the importance of the program to the state, etc. Now I suspect Crean interviewed well, he is a natural salesman, but it is pretty clear Archie and Sampson would have failed those interview questions.

So the bigger question is how could an AD get HIS job if he couldn't even ask questions like that? The BOT/Presidents were terrible failures at picking ADs who understood that the essence, rightly or wrongly, of IU athletics is men's basketball. IU men's basketball has to be super competititive every year. Then as AD you go to work on football next, because it has to be the cash cow, and then everything else. That is just the essence of the job.

Dolson seems a lttle better at understanding the priorities, but the jury is out whether he's putting enough emphasis and support/oversight on football. CTA needs guidance and support to prevent/fix his mistakes.
Click to expand...
Sometimes people will just interview great. Though, I have a hard time believing CAM could overcome his general personality in one…
 
I’ve posted it before, and I will again.

mike Davis was on espn outside the lines with Andrea Kramer and asked what he wanted to change about IU basketball and his answer was “oh, everything “.

I understand he didn’t have the power and the IU admin wanted to vaporize coach Knight from the program, but still.,,,there was nothing worth salvaging? Everything needed to change?

Mission accomplished. IU hit it out of the park. I don’t see how anyone can’t give them an A+ if their goal was a complete culture change in the basketball program.

I never enjoyed/liked or appreciated Crean as a coach, or program builder. However, at least he had some interest in the IU basketball program family and traditions.

Woody is doing his best to steer the ship back into the waters of what IU basketball used to be, but IMHO the wilderness decades are Indiana University’s own doing.
 
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I think it's a little ironic that the one coach (prior to Woody) that Coach Knight made supportive comments about in public is the one his former players (in this article) dislike the most.
 
I was a strong proponent of Miller's hire. His Dayton results history, his CBB pedigree, his DNA tied to his brother, his rather calm demeanor and clean good guy image and even his non-emotional communication style compared to Crean. But the 1 I never could argue with, Bobby Knight supported the hire. Still very surprised he failed since he did own so many assets. He just didn't get "IUBB" culture and stature in the HOOSIER state. Crean to much 1 way, Miller to much the other.
 
jimmygoiu said:
the BOT and Greenspan and Glass- destroyers of IU as a blue blood.
Click to expand...
Nope. President Herbert was the one who insisted that they hire Sampson and that was the moment when IU basketball missed their opportunity to get the right guy. By the time Glass showed up the damage was done and Greenspan had to follow orders.
 
Hoosier Clarion said:
I was a strong proponent of Miller's hire. His Dayton results history, his CBB pedigree, his DNA tied to his brother, his rather calm demeanor and clean good guy image and even his non-emotional communication style compared to Crean. But the 1 I never could argue with, Bobby Knight supported the hire. Still very surprised he failed since he did own so many assets. He just didn't get "IUBB" culture and stature in the HOOSIER state. Crean to much 1 way, Miller to much the other.
Click to expand...
There really wasn't much to dislike about hiring Archie Miller at the time and it was viewed as a very good hire by almost everyone, including as you say, Bob Knight. My criticism, and I still believe it to be valid, was that I didn't feel like we went through a full hiring process and focused on AM and that's who we got. I still think there should have been a small committee and they should have done a thorough search. If they still landed on AM, so be it. But, we were never going to find that unknown diamond in the rough without a full search, which means if we'd just gone after the "hot" names back in 1971 we'd have never hired a young coach from Army.
 
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Harry Hondo said:
Nope. President Herbert was the one who insisted that they hire Sampson and that was the moment when IU basketball missed their opportunity to get the right guy. By the time Glass showed up the damage was done and Greenspan had to follow orders.
Click to expand...
Good point, so we add Herbert as a member of the terrible 3. The hiring of Mike Davis was a disaster and the stake in the heart. Imagine IU, a true blue blood at the time, hiring as it's head coach a man with ZERO head coaching experience, and no record as an elite recruiter or quality assistant. It is ruly Beyond Belief that the AD and BOT could possibly be this stupid...

Wisconsin had a similar situation in the same season, had an interim coach, and then brought in Bo Ryan. IU hired Davis full time without even a search. Absolutely unqualified...IU had a full roster to attract an elite coach. ...and then Herbert nuked the program...and THEN, somehow, Surfboard Fred made it even worse- leveling the program to absolute mediocrity. I guess I should buy SbF's book, to see if he apologizes...
 
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jimmygoiu said:
Good point, so we add Herbert as a member of the terrible 3. The hiring of Mike Davis was a disaster and the stake in the heart. Imagine IU, a true blue blood at the time, hiring as it's head coach a man with ZERO head coaching experience, and no record as an elite recruiter or quality assistant. It is ruly Beyond Belief that the AD and BOT could possibly be this stupid...

Wisconsin had a similar situation in the same season, had an interim coach, and then brought in Bo Ryan. IU hired Davis full time without even a search. Absolutely unqualified...IU had a full roster to attract an elite coach. ...and then Herbert nuked the program...and THEN, somehow, Surfboard Fred made it even worse- leveling the program to absolute mediocrity. I guess I should buy SbF's book, to see if he apologizes...
Click to expand...
Interesting you used WI as your example. Didn't Greg Gard not have any HC experience when he took over for Bo?
 
Champs1976 said:
Relative to the Archie hire, it just seems like such a simple interview question to ask - "What is the Indiana University basketball program all about?" And pretty easy to have a list in the interviewer's mind of what you want to hear to determine if the guy would be a fit, exceptional defense, maximum commitment, refuse to lose, continually seeking perfection, high character, strong leader, and great shooting teams. Then, does the candidate understand and appreciates the history, the importance of the program to the state, etc. Now I suspect Crean interviewed well, he is a natural salesman, but it is pretty clear Archie and Sampson would have failed those interview questions.

So the bigger question is how could an AD get HIS job if he couldn't even ask questions like that? The BOT/Presidents were terrible failures at picking ADs who understood that the essence, rightly or wrongly, of IU athletics is men's basketball. IU men's basketball has to be super competititive every year. Then as AD you go to work on football next, because it has to be the cash cow, and then everything else. That is just the essence of the job.

Dolson seems a lttle better at understanding the priorities, but the jury is out whether he's putting enough emphasis and support/oversight on football. CTA needs guidance and support to prevent/fix his mistakes.
Click to expand...
Oh I think Miller and Sampson could very easily have answered that question in an interview. I think most decent coaches, that have even a smidge of historical knowledge and perspective on IU basketball, could answer that question. Using terms like pride, work ethic, weaving it in with the fabric of Indiana HS basketball, Indiana AAU basketball, etc...

The AD's and decision makers should have seen shortly thereafter though, with their words and actions, that they weren't IU people, and actually weren't willing to walk the walk...I actually give Dolson a ton of credit for realizing that, and making a quick decision on it after he was formally hired. And while I was initially very luke warm on the Woodson hiring, I am warming up to it. Still have concerns, but I've evolved a bit to the perspective that even if he doesn't have resounding success on the court, the overall healing nature his efforts will likely provide, will be very beneficial in the long term.

I firmly believe Indiana can still be a unique and special program. "Indiana basketball" is still a thing. Our overall organization and level of basketball from the youth levels up through HS, are still really, really strong, compared to other states. If IU can get back to being THE flagship basketball program in Indiana again...the on court results will take care of itself.
 
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Champs1976 said:
Relative to the Archie hire, it just seems like such a simple interview question to ask - "What is the Indiana University basketball program all about?" And pretty easy to have a list in the interviewer's mind of what you want to hear to determine if the guy would be a fit, exceptional defense, maximum commitment, refuse to lose, continually seeking perfection, high character, strong leader, and great shooting teams. Then, does the candidate understand and appreciates the history, the importance of the program to the state, etc. Now I suspect Crean interviewed well, he is a natural salesman, but it is pretty clear Archie and Sampson would have failed those interview questions.

So the bigger question is how could an AD get HIS job if he couldn't even ask questions like that? The BOT/Presidents were terrible failures at picking ADs who understood that the essence, rightly or wrongly, of IU athletics is men's basketball. IU men's basketball has to be super competititive every year. Then as AD you go to work on football next, because it has to be the cash cow, and then everything else. That is just the essence of the job.

Dolson seems a lttle better at understanding the priorities, but the jury is out whether he's putting enough emphasis and support/oversight on football. CTA needs guidance and support to prevent/fix his mistakes.
Click to expand...
I question how much of an interview process there was. I think FG identified Archie as a can't miss candidate and pursued him. I hope they did go through a normal interview process, but much about the way that hire came about makes me believe they did not.
 
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Facts, Kravitz: they’re important. As a journalist - even with the important modifier of “sports” necessarily attached - you should know that. 20 years since the last title game.

Only the second paragraph in and you’re struggling.
 
jimmygoiu said:
Good point, so we add Herbert as a member of the terrible 3. The hiring of Mike Davis was a disaster and the stake in the heart. Imagine IU, a true blue blood at the time, hiring as it's head coach a man with ZERO head coaching experience, and no record as an elite recruiter or quality assistant. It is ruly Beyond Belief that the AD and BOT could possibly be this stupid...

Wisconsin had a similar situation in the same season, had an interim coach, and then brought in Bo Ryan. IU hired Davis full time without even a search. Absolutely unqualified...IU had a full roster to attract an elite coach. ...and then Herbert nuked the program...and THEN, somehow, Surfboard Fred made it even worse- leveling the program to absolute mediocrity. I guess I should buy SbF's book, to see if he apologizes...
Click to expand...
I think the diff between Davis and Gard was that Gard was at WI for years and still uses a lot of Bo's approach. Davis was in tough spot and had to be confident but it's funny now he candidly admits he was out to change everything--- which confirms how unqualified he was for c the role. I always felt he was overly pretentious and not appreciative what BK built and that ultimately BK put him position to be the HC. I'm sure he "read the room" as the BOT also wanted to change everything (and prove they were right) and erase BK from the program. That was possibly one of most incompetent and irresponsible decisions a successful program's administration has ever made in the history of NCAA.
 
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demunn said:
I think the diff between Davis and Gard was that Gard was at WI for years and still uses a lot of Bo's approach. Davis was in tough spot and had to be confident but it's funny now he candidly admits he was out to change everything--- which confirms how unqualified he was for c the role. I always felt he was overly pretentious and not appreciative what BK built and that ultimately BK put him position to be the HC. I'm sure he "read the room" as the BOT also wanted to change everything (and prove they were right) and erase BK from the program. That was possibly one of most incompetent and irresponsible decisions a successful program's administration has ever made in the history of NCAA.
Click to expand...
If you are restricting that statement to the hiring of HC for basketball, that might be true. Regardless, it was an awful decision.
 
I agree that there was no way Mike Davis should have been handed the job permanently after Knight was fired. He was clearly not qualified to be the HC of a program like IU with no prior HC experience running a program. He stated he could not do the job properly because the university did not make a long term committment to him thus hurting recruiting because kids didn't think he'd be the coach for the long term. Why would they think that? Because it made no sense that he was the coach in the first place and had no track record of producing great players or great teams.

I also realize that the IU admin at the time, Miles Brand in particular, believed that IU was way too identified as a "basketball school" and Knight was IU's image versus other aspects of the university. Academics have always resented the athletics program and the, in their opinion, undue attention paid to it versus to gender studies or some other esoteric academic pursuit. Brand thought that the basketball program needed to be deemphasized. He was perfectly happy for the program to drift into mediocrity. He absolutely did not want to import another highly prominent basketball coach that would continue IU's image as a "basketball school" with a different person as that image. To a certain degree other IU presidents have felt the same.

The one story about Archie that got me was when Woodson met with the team in SSAH shortly after taking the job he talked about the history of the IU basketball program and players didn't even know who Keith Smart was. Apparently that wasn't the only aspect of the history of the program they were not aware of. Now, granted, young people wouldn't naturally know about it since it was so long ago, nor would they necessarily care. But, it points out a recruiting hole. Why, in the course of recruiting a kid, it would not be covered at some point how important IU basketball is to so many people across the state and country? Why would you not explain that being a player at IU automatically makes you special on campus and also requires a certain committment? And wouldn't that be an important consideration when determining whether or not the kid would be a good fit?
 
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kkott said:
Interesting you used WI as your example. Didn't Greg Gard not have any HC experience when he took over for Bo?
Click to expand...
Mike Davis is NO Greg Gard, in prior experience, talent, and years of relationship with the university, and you know it. Let's discuss IU hiring interim coach Davis with NO coaching search, and UW letting its interim coach go, doing a search, and hiring Bo Ryan. Both schools in the same season- how did that turn out?
 
Champs1976 said:
I agree that there was no way Mike Davis should have been handed the job permanently after Knight was fired. He was clearly not qualified to be the HC of a program like IU with no prior HC experience running a program. He stated he could not do the job properly because the university did not make a long term committment to him thus hurting recruiting because kids didn't think he'd be the coach for the long term. Why would they think that? Because it made no sense that he was the coach in the first place and had no track record of producing great players or great teams.

I also realize that the IU admin at the time, Miles Brand in particular, believed that IU was way too identified as a "basketball school" and Knight was IU's image versus other aspects of the university. Academics have always resented the athletics program and the, in their opinion, undue attention paid to it versus to gender studies or some other esoteric academic pursuit. Brand thought that the basketball program needed to be deemphasized. He was perfectly happy for the program to drift into mediocrity. He absolutely did not want to import another highly prominent basketball coach that would continue IU's image as a "basketball school" with a different person as that image. To a certain degree other IU presidents have felt the same.

The one story about Archie that got me was when Woodson met with the team in SSAH shortly after taking the job he talked about the history of the IU basketball program and players didn't even know who Keith Smart was. Apparently that wasn't the only aspect of the history of the program they were not aware of. Now, granted, young people wouldn't naturally know about it since it was so long ago, nor would they necessarily care. But, it points out a recruiting hole. Why, in the course of recruiting a kid, it would not be covered at some point how important IU basketball is to so many people across the state and country? Why would you not explain that being a player at IU automatically makes you special on campus and also requires a certain committment? And wouldn't that be an important consideration when determining whether or not the kid would be a good fit?
Click to expand...
I was always pretty suspect of MD as HC. But about the 3rd season when into a microphone he complained he couldn't "get the boys to practice hard", what a white flag, he was the HC. Right there he lost me and I became his harshest critic. Game, set, match.
 
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