Game analysis is easy in this one

IUNorth

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They have college level shooters. We don’t.

I give Archie credit enough that we don’t get beat by 30 by these teams.

But in the end, you gotta have at least average shooters these days. And for whatever reason Archie hasn’t found any. And he should lose his job for it at this point.
 
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crazed_hoosier2

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That's crazy talk..
Who gives 3 million up..
Come on ~
Sigh...I know.

But, if you were him, wouldn’t you feel at least a little bit guilty cashing those checks? Just a little bit?

RMK donated his salary after a bad year at TTU. And I remember Chip Kelly making some similar gestures after putting a bad team on the field at Oregon. But, yeah, it’s rare. And I understand why. Archie’s market value is clearly going to be in the gutter after his tenure here ends. So he may as well get as much as he can while he still can.
 

IUNorth

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Sigh...I know.

But, if you were him, wouldn’t you feel at least a little bit guilty cashing those checks? Just a little bit?

RMK donated his salary after a bad year at TTU. And I remember Chip Kelly making some similar gestures after putting a bad team on the field at Oregon. But, yeah, it’s rare. And I understand why. Archie’s market value is clearly going to be in the gutter after his tenure here ends. So he may as well get as much as he can while he still can.
My guess is he ends up with another decent mid major job. He does really well because he happens to find a couple guys that can make a 3 or two. And then ends back up at a Power 5 school somewhere 5-6 years from now.

His programs are consistently good/solid. We’re a solid team. We just have the most fatal of fatal flaws in today’s game, we can’t shoot or make plays on the perimeter. And while I think he is a decent coach, his failure to land shooters, and the results he’s gotten as a result should lead to his termination at the end of this season.
 
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bsmitty08

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My guess is he ends up with another decent mid major job. He does really well because he happens to find a couple guys that can make a 3 or two. And then ends back up at a Power 5 school somewhere 5-6 years from now.

His programs are consistently good/solid. We’re a solid team. We just have the most fatal of fatal flaws in today’s game, we can’t shoot or make plays on the perimeter. And while I think he is a decent coach, his failure to land shooters, and the results he’s gotten as a result should lead to his termination at the end of this season.
Zero shooters
Average athletes
Zero front court depth = below average results
 

crazed_hoosier2

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His programs are consistently good/solid. We’re a solid team. We just have the most fatal of fatal flaws in today’s game, we can’t shoot or make plays on the perimeter. And while I think he is a decent coach, his failure to land shooters, and the results he’s gotten as a result should lead to his termination at the end of this season.
Do I think we’re a horrible team? No. Crean’s first couple teams were horrible (with good reason). But I don’t think I’d use the term “solid” to describe any of Archie’s 4 IU teams.

Lukewarm, mediocre, lackluster, uninspired, average, middling...those are the words I’d use. And nobody can call those labels unfairly harsh.
 

TR32

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My guess is he ends up with another decent mid major job. He does really well because he happens to find a couple guys that can make a 3 or two. And then ends back up at a Power 5 school somewhere 5-6 years from now.

His programs are consistently good/solid. We’re a solid team. We just have the most fatal of fatal flaws in today’s game, we can’t shoot or make plays on the perimeter. And while I think he is a decent coach, his failure to land shooters, and the results he’s gotten as a result should lead to his termination at the end of this season.
I pretty much agree. Though having Trayce back makes a huge difference in the future prospects of this team. Miller would win a lot more if he had one more top level player.
 

fkfootball

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I just don’t know if IU can afford to fire him. If he had a proper sense of shame and decency, he’d forfeit the remaining years and money and resign.
Of course they can. I don’t care if you pay Mike Roberts 100,000 a year for the next 3 years. Just get rid of the worst coach in the Big Ten.
 

fkfootball

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My guess is he ends up with another decent mid major job. He does really well because he happens to find a couple guys that can make a 3 or two. And then ends back up at a Power 5 school somewhere 5-6 years from now.

His programs are consistently good/solid. We’re a solid team. We just have the most fatal of fatal flaws in today’s game, we can’t shoot or make plays on the perimeter. And while I think he is a decent coach, his failure to land shooters, and the results he’s gotten as a result should lead to his termination at the end of this season.
Solid team? Solid teams don’t go 8-11 which is what we will be in 2 weeks.
 

IUNorth

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Do I think we’re a horrible team? No. Crean’s first couple teams were horrible (with good reason). But I don’t think I’d use the term “solid” to describe any of Archie’s 4 IU teams.

Lukewarm, mediocre, lackluster, uninspired, average, middling...those are the words I’d use. And nobody can call those labels unfairly harsh.
KenPom numbers don’t tell the whole story, obviously as we know with Archies last couple IU teams. But they do paint a decent picture. And from KenPOm his last two teams have been solid. His and our problem is merely solid, in the Big Ten these last two years means you hover around .500 and that puts you 10th. So I think we’re largely solid. Basically every single game, no matter how it happens, we’re either up a few or down a few past the 8 minute timeout in the second half. That’s “solid” to me. If we were “good”, we’d win a few more than we have each year.
 

IUNorth

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Solid team? Solid teams don’t go 8-11 which is what we will be in 2 weeks.
I think any team at or near .500 in the Big Ten last year and/or this year is solid.

The problem is other programs have made hires near or after we did that have resulted in better than solid results. Howard, Paikel, Underwood, Holtman...they all have their programs in better shape than Archie does. Now and set up going forward. So I no longer thing solid is good enough. Because I no longer see an obvious path from solid to good for Archie.
 

Big Red Crimson Buffalo

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My guess is he ends up with another decent mid major job. He does really well because he happens to find a couple guys that can make a 3 or two. And then ends back up at a Power 5 school somewhere 5-6 years from now.

His programs are consistently good/solid. We’re a solid team. We just have the most fatal of fatal flaws in today’s game, we can’t shoot or make plays on the perimeter. And while I think he is a decent coach, his failure to land shooters, and the results he’s gotten as a result should lead to his termination at the end of this season.
Solid team?

You serious Clark?

Aside from the nonexistent shooting, free throws included, the part we’re supposed to be good at, defense, is also awful. You hang your hat on defense and you allow anybody to drop 80+ on you?

Arch is so far in over his head if fans cannot see that after 4 years, then they made up their mind a long time ago that he’s a good coach and no mounting body of evidence that says differently will convince them.
 
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KenPom numbers don’t tell the whole story, obviously as we know with Archies last couple IU teams. But they do paint a decent picture. And from KenPOm his last two teams have been solid. His and our problem is merely solid, in the Big Ten these last two years means you hover around .500 and that puts you 10th. So I think we’re largely solid. Basically every single game, no matter how it happens, we’re either up a few or down a few past the 8 minute timeout in the second half. That’s “solid” to me. If we were “good”, we’d win a few more than we have each year.
Kenpom gets better as the season goes on. We took a big hit tonight, falling into the 30's. A few more losses like that and we will be on the wrong side of the bubble.
 

SIhoosier26

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I think any team at or near .500 in the Big Ten last year and/or this year is solid.

The problem is other programs have made hires near or after we did that have resulted in better than solid results. Howard, Paikel, Underwood, Holtman...they all have their programs in better shape than Archie does. Now and set up going forward. So I no longer thing solid is good enough. Because I no longer see an obvious path from solid to good for Archie.
Then you have a different definition of "solid" than I do. There's nothing solid about a team that can't finish .500 in it's own conference. Solidly mediocre maybe.
 
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crazed_hoosier2

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Solid team?

You serious Clark?

Aside from the nonexistent shooting, free throws included, the part we’re supposed to be good at, defense, is also awful. You hang your hat on defense and you allow anybody to drop 80+ on you?

Arch is so far in over his head if fans cannot see that after 4 years, then they made up their mind a long time ago that he’s a good coach and no mounting body of evidence that says differently will convince them.
KenPom apparently says so. So there’s that.
 

Birnk403

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We missed the entire rim at least 2 or more times? I drifted off for a bit but my gawd that one Lander shot was just maybe the worst Ive seen.
That’s the elephant here. Miller thought (and his preseason commentary supports this) that KL was ready to contribute immediately, and that he was so precocious that his play would elevate as the season progressed, giving us a perimeter and backcourt element we haven’t had in his tenure. He was to be the catalyst that we haven’t had, and it would make everyone better.

He obviously miscalculated on that one.
 

Cavanagh

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We missed the entire rim at least 2 or more times? I drifted off for a bit but my gawd that one Lander shot was just maybe the worst Ive seen.
Franklins corner three was the worst. He knew it on the other end as he gave a hard clap "PHUCK" when he got back on D.

Fatjohns got interviewed about Lander transferring on the Hoosier hysteric thing they do. Only one I have ever seen, but it was the most uncomfortable I have ever seen ol Rabby. The bald guy with a viking beard said everything I have said over the last few months. It is like he entered my brain. Everyone should watch it.

Lander is cold when he is coming in after sitting for 20-30 mins of real time. Bball players need to warm up. Couple that with him pressing trying to make an impact in his 3 minute stretch. Gonna have a lot of crap in that 3 minutes. Never gonna see what he can do.
 
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That’s the elephant here. Miller thought (and his preseason commentary supports this) that KL was ready to contribute immediately, and that he was so precocious that his play would elevate as the season progressed, giving us a perimeter and backcourt element we haven’t had in his tenure. He was to be the catalyst that we haven’t had, and it would make everyone better.

He obviously miscalculated on that one.
whose bright idea was it for the kid to jump early? There is absolutely no reason he should not still be playing in HS. He is not ready for this. Doesn't even look like a legit P5 recruit let alone a '5 star'. Hell Damezi looked better his frosh year. Think about that for a minute.
 
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Franklins corner three was the worst. He knew it on the other end as he gave a hard clap "PHUCK" when he got back on D.

Fatjohns got interviewed about Lander transferring on the Hoosier hysteric thing they do. Only one I have ever seen, but it was the most uncomfortable I have ever seen ol Rabby. The bald guy with a viking beard said everything I have said over the last few months. It is like he entered my brain. Everyone should watch it.

Lander is cold when he is coming in after sitting for 20-30 mins of real time. Bball players need to warm up. Couple that with him pressing trying to make an impact in his 3 minute stretch. Gonna have a lot of crap in that 3 minutes. Never gonna see what he can do.
Yeah I remember Franklin's heave from the corner...was he up against the shot clock on that one? When he released it, it looked like it was going to hit the supports on the wrong side of the backboard. Ugly.
 
Mar 14, 2003
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Franklins corner three was the worst. He knew it on the other end as he gave a hard clap "PHUCK" when he got back on D.

Fatjohns got interviewed about Lander transferring on the Hoosier hysteric thing they do. Only one I have ever seen, but it was the most uncomfortable I have ever seen ol Rabby. The bald guy with a viking beard said everything I have said over the last few months. It is like he entered my brain. Everyone should watch it.

Lander is cold when he is coming in after sitting for 20-30 mins of real time. Bball players need to warm up. Couple that with him pressing trying to make an impact in his 3 minute stretch. Gonna have a lot of crap in that 3 minutes. Never gonna see what he can do.
It's true about coming in after warming up and then going cold for 20-30 min. The problem is that Lander's footwork and overall positioning on defense is so bad right now, even if he started he wouldn't last 5 minutes without picking up 2 fouls. So not sure what the answer is.
 

Cavanagh

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It's true about coming in after warming up and then going cold for 20-30 min. The problem is that Lander's footwork and overall positioning on defense is so bad right now, even if he started he wouldn't last 5 minutes without picking up 2 fouls. So not sure what the answer is.
Well when you say he is gonna be special and be thrown to the wolves, trial by fire, gonna play a lot early, and none of that happens. It is 100% on the coach. Archie said he was gonna be a huge part of our success and he hasn't given him a shot. So either he was wrong on him or he is an awful coach. Both are fireable offenses at this point.
 

Birnk403

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whose bright idea was it for the kid to jump early? There is absolutely no reason he should not still be playing in HS. He is not ready for this. Doesn't even look like a legit P5 recruit let alone a '5 star'. Hell Damezi looked better his frosh year. Think about that for a minute.
I don’t know all of the impactful elements or their relative weights, but he’s there because Miller encouraged it. If the view was 2020-2021 was a mulligan season (and everyone agreed it was such), great. But Miller talked him up much more aggressively than that, and it was obviously overkill. Most coaches don’t do that.
 
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larlane

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We missed the entire rim at least 2 or more times? I drifted off for a bit but my gawd that one Lander shot was just maybe the worst Ive seen.
...and the last one he hit was an unintentional bank shot! I see nothing about this kid that is even close to the hype. Did they actually say he was supposed to be the best from Eville since Calbert? I know everyone is down on Archie, but on paper he has delivered the best in the state-something he said was a priority. It is perplexing how this has not paid dividends. No one can shoot worth a damn.
 

Cavanagh

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...and the last one he hit was an unintentional bank shot! I see nothing about this kid that is even close to the hype. Did they actually say he was supposed to be the best from Eville since Calbert? I know everyone is down on Archie, but on paper he has delivered the best in the state-something he said was a priority. It is perplexing how this has not paid dividends. No one can shoot worth a damn.
well the guys that went to PU sure hit threes last night.....
 

CriticArisen

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...and the last one he hit was an unintentional bank shot! I see nothing about this kid that is even close to the hype. Did they actually say he was supposed to be the best from Eville since Calbert? I know everyone is down on Archie, but on paper he has delivered the best in the state-something he said was a priority. It is perplexing how this has not paid dividends. No one can shoot worth a damn.
If you watch his high school tape I will be very surprised if you see an IU savior. I am not saying he cant develop but just that he has a whole lot to develop.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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That’s the elephant here. Miller thought (and his preseason commentary supports this) that KL was ready to contribute immediately, and that he was so precocious that his play would elevate as the season progressed, giving us a perimeter and backcourt element we haven’t had in his tenure. He was to be the catalyst that we haven’t had, and it would make everyone better.

He obviously miscalculated on that one.
That makes me wonder either (a) how much Archie had actually seen Lander play, or (b) just how much of an eye for talent he has. Or both.

I mean, I'm certainly no expert in the game. I've never claimed to be. But I did watch Lander a number of times at Reitz. And, while his athleticism was easy to spot, he was clearly pretty raw...especially for a kid they were talking about reclassifying.

I wrote this last March:

I should also say that I'm not quite as sold on Khristian Lander as some people are. I'm in Evansville and have watched him play 7 or 8 times the past few years. I know that isn't a lot and, besides, I certainly don't hold myself out to be a great judge of HS basketball talent. But, having watched him, it's been hard for me to escape the sense that he's a little overrated. And I'm NOT just saying that because he's coming to IU. I'd have said it if he'd have gone to Louisville, too.

There again, I very much hope I'm wrong. I hope he gets here and lives up to, or surpasses, all expectations.
But, then, Archie wasn't the only coach who was going after Lander hard. And, for whatever reason, he was very highly rated by the people who do those things.
 

Harry Hondo

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I just don’t know if IU can afford to fire him. If he had a proper sense of shame and decency, he’d forfeit the remaining years and money and resign.
He's not gonna quit. But the real question is why give a mid-major coach a 7 year deal right off the bat? I understand he needs security to lure recruits, but why not 5 years and after 3, if you think things are headed in the right direction, give him an extension? Frankly, after year 4 he will have not done nearly enough to remain as coach for much longer. I didn't like Crean, but he recruited much better talent (2016 team alone has 4 NBA players in the league - Yogi, OG, Bryant, Morgan, but Crean wasn't a good enough coach to get them to a final four).
 
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...and the last one he hit was an unintentional bank shot! I see nothing about this kid that is even close to the hype. Did they actually say he was supposed to be the best from Eville since Calbert? I know everyone is down on Archie, but on paper he has delivered the best in the state-something he said was a priority. It is perplexing how this has not paid dividends. No one can shoot worth a damn.
not sure about that 'best in state' comment. Yes he landed Romeo, but his IU legacy is empty. TJD was the best get, but the kid may never see a tourney game in his IU career. This year's frosh contributed nothing last night; one didn't even play (Geronimo), one played not long enough to crack a sweat (Leal), one shouldn't have played (Lander) as the game went sideways the moment he entered. And the class of 2021 recruiting class has been a big failure when you consider the high-level in-state talent that opted to go elsewhere (including to Purdue).

Yes the reference to Eville/Calbert last night made me cringe. No offense to Lander but he should not be mentioned in the same sentence right now as the B1G's all time leading scorer, other than that they hailed from the same town in the SW portion of the state. The comparisons must stop there.
 
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He's not gonna quit. But the real question is why give a mid-major coach a 7 year deal right off the bat? I understand he needs security to lure recruits, but why not 5 years and after 3, if you think things are headed in the right direction, give him an extension? Frankly, after year 4 he will have not done nearly enough to remain as coach for much longer. I didn't like Crean, but he recruited much better talent (2016 team alone has 4 NBA players in the league - Yogi, OG, Bryant, Morgan, but Crean wasn't a good enough coach to get them to a final four).
Quit? that would cost him more money that most people make in a lifetime. There is a reason coaches don't 'quit' on their own. Too many Benjamins at stake.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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He's not gonna quit.
Oh, I know. It's just a fantasy I allow myself to indulge every so often. Pay it no mind. It's mostly because, if it were me, I'd feel guilty cashing such huge checks knowing that I'd been little more than laying eggs for 4 years.

But the real question is why give a mid-major coach a 7 year deal right off the bat?
Every type of negotiation and business deal comes down to leverage -- who has more, who has less, who gets the most out of what they have, who pisses what they have away.

The likely answer to your question is that Archie had, or felt he had, more leverage than IU did. And IU, in agreeing to a 7 year deal, probably agreed. Glass wanted him and never gave serious consideration to anybody else.

Archie's stock was high at the time and, if he couldn't get what he wanted out of IU, he likely could have elsewhere. My recollection is that Matta didn't step down until June or so. But I have to believe that people in that world (coaches, ADs, agents, shoe reps and such) knew Matta was on his way out and that OSU probably had Archie at the top of their list. If so, we can add the element of timing.
 

Birnk403

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That makes me wonder either (a) how much Archie had actually seen Lander play, or (b) just how much of an eye for talent he has. Or both.

I mean, I'm certainly no expert in the game. I've never claimed to be. But I did watch Lander a number of times at Reitz. And, while his athleticism was easy to spot, he was clearly pretty raw...especially for a kid they were talking about reclassifying.

I wrote this last March:



But, then, Archie wasn't the only coach who was going after Lander hard. And, for whatever reason, he was very highly rated by the people who do those things.
Your post was prescient, and I also heard it from a west sider who said much of what you did. Good kid with obvious potential, but not a jump off the page athlete or someone who was even physically mature. He, too, believed the hype machine needed to be dialed back a bit, though even he thought things would be better now than they are.

My concern with unrealized expectations (even outlandish ones) is that they often breed discontent, and that’s not a good thing, obviously. I don’t know what KL’s support system is like, but it’s not unreasonable to expect that some within his circle aren’t pleased, and that’s often a seed that grows quickly and uncontrollably.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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He, too, believed the hype machine needed to be dialed back a bit, though even he thought things would be better now than they are.
Yeah, I thought Lander was overrated after being picked out as a sophomore as an emerging 5-star. But, I have to say that I didn't expect him to be as raw and unready as he's thus far proven to be.

In retrospect, it was obviously bad for both him and IU to reclassify him to the Class of 2020. I'm not saying that he can't still realize the level of potential the scouts have tagged him with. But in no way was he ready to step onto a Big Ten floor.
 

Crayfish57

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...and the last one he hit was an unintentional bank shot! I see nothing about this kid that is even close to the hype. Did they actually say he was supposed to be the best from Eville since Calbert? I know everyone is down on Archie, but on paper he has delivered the best in the state-something he said was a priority. It is perplexing how this has not paid dividends. No one can shoot worth a damn.
Romeo was not a total bust and did get hurt . Lander and nothing against the kid and he does seem to play hard but just wow. Who rated him? I just can't imagine and Calbert broke his foot his sr yr and I dont remember the buzz. He was the least heralded of that class. I watched a replay of the first KY game of that class . Calbert was the best but if Pat graham didnt break his foot and have diabetes problems . He was headed for great things as far and away 2nd best he could really shoot and score. Lander I dont get . I see nothing , Romeo as a 2-3 yr player or 4 in the old days would have had a great career. He is always hurt for Boston now. Lander is a waterbug and I don't see where that fits? I'm old , out of shape and short but I can throw up better shots than that. he can get up the court and back twice on me though. I have not seen a thing about him to see. Langford has size and physical ability . He was over hyped but injuries held him back and he didnt really want to be here. Damon Bailey isnt coming in anytime soon. What was the hype on Lander? I blame the hype machine , not really him but he shouldve played his sr yr.
 

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