For The Christophobes Here

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Here is the statement from Bishop Warner H. Brown Jr., president of the United Methodist Council of Bishops. (Look at him - you can just TELL he's a bigot - just by looking - see the hate?

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Mark 12:31 says, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Throughout the history of the United States, the Supreme Court has been called on to ensure equality, liberty, and justice for all people. This can be seen in the abolition of slavery, the women’s movement, the civil rights movement of the 60s, and now in the fight for marriage equality.
Today, in a 5 to 4 decision, the United States Supreme Court ruled in favor of marriage equality for all people.
For decades, The United Methodist Church has debated this issue. Next year when General Conference gathers in Portland, Oregon, the decision to change, or reaffirm the church’s historic position will be considered. Pastors and congregations within our denomination hold opinions across the spectrum of this decision. Some sincerely believe our church policy is correct as it is. Others believe it is not correct. Across the spectrum, many believe our policy impacts our ability to make disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world. We seek to be a church that is inclusive enough to hold together people of different cultures, languages, and traditions.
In our Social Principles, United Methodists have stated our common belief around this value: We affirm that all persons are individuals of sacred worth, created in the image of God. All persons need the ministry of the Church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self.
This Supreme Court decision calls attention to the difference between the laws of the United States, and the policy of our church. The law does not require anyone to violate their conscience of what God has called them to do, or their theological understanding. But, if we seek to be an inclusive church that serves all of our parishioners, and all of our neighbors, we will have to consider how we treat all people equally. The heart of our call to ministry is to be pastor to the people of the congregation, and the community, we serve. May we continue to be a people of prayer, and hope, as we work towards a day of equality and inclusion for all people created in the image of God.
Alice Stokes Paul, women’s rights activist and leader in getting women the right to vote says, “I never doubted that equal rights was the right direction. Most reforms, most problems are complicated. But to me there is nothing complicated about ordinary equality.”
Grace and Peace,
Bishop Warner H. Brown, Jr.
President, Council of Bishops

What a horrible Christian man, huh?
Which concentration camp should he be sent to?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I noticed he didn't actually say anything in all that. He'd make a good politician.

(No, seriously, those are good thoughts.)

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Here's a preacher whom injustice drove crazy - he set himself on fire to atone for mistreatment of blacks and gays.

I was shocked by this article.
I had been told Christians are generally bigots.
Guess it depends on what the definition of "generally" is.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...et-himself-on-fire-to-inspire-social-justice/

 

[zeke4ahs]

You

Here is the statement from Bishop Warner H. Brown Jr., president of the United Methodist Council of Bishops. (Look at him - you can just TELL he's a bigot - just by looking - see the hate?

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Mark 12:31 says, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Throughout the history of the United States, the Supreme Court has been called on to ensure equality, liberty, and justice for all people. This can be seen in the abolition of slavery, the women’s movement, the civil rights movement of the 60s, and now in the fight for marriage equality.
Today, in a 5 to 4 decision, the United States Supreme Court ruled in favor of marriage equality for all people.
For decades, The United Methodist Church has debated this issue. Next year when General Conference gathers in Portland, Oregon, the decision to change, or reaffirm the church’s historic position will be considered. Pastors and congregations within our denomination hold opinions across the spectrum of this decision. Some sincerely believe our church policy is correct as it is. Others believe it is not correct. Across the spectrum, many believe our policy impacts our ability to make disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world. We seek to be a church that is inclusive enough to hold together people of different cultures, languages, and traditions.
In our Social Principles, United Methodists have stated our common belief around this value: We affirm that all persons are individuals of sacred worth, created in the image of God. All persons need the ministry of the Church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self.
This Supreme Court decision calls attention to the difference between the laws of the United States, and the policy of our church. The law does not require anyone to violate their conscience of what God has called them to do, or their theological understanding. But, if we seek to be an inclusive church that serves all of our parishioners, and all of our neighbors, we will have to consider how we treat all people equally. The heart of our call to ministry is to be pastor to the people of the congregation, and the community, we serve. May we continue to be a people of prayer, and hope, as we work towards a day of equality and inclusion for all people created in the image of God.
Alice Stokes Paul, women’s rights activist and leader in getting women the right to vote says, “I never doubted that equal rights was the right direction. Most reforms, most problems are complicated. But to me there is nothing complicated about ordinary equality.”
Grace and Peace,
Bishop Warner H. Brown, Jr.
President, Council of Bishops

What a horrible Christian man, huh?
Which concentration camp should he be sent to?

You probably posted a picture because he is black, but actually that's one thing I have noticed. Just observational, but my Facebook feed is made of of at least a third of Black friends, former students, etc. The few people that are against this decisions ( on my feed, I know there's more than a few) have all been minority. Also, when I see a round table discussion involving ministers, many of those speaking against are also Black. Just an observation that I find interesting, that it appears disproportionately that the black community has more of a problem with this ruling.

 

[hootch1]

I was raised in a Baptist church but have attended Presbyterian churches for some time now. I'm not religious but religion is interesting to me.

Two churches ago, there was a church in the same presbytery that had a dilemma. A young man that had grown up, and had been active as a youth, in that church had returned. He had "come out" in the interim. There was a discussion in that church and, at least the one I was attending, about how the church should handle this issue. A number of people at the church I attended left just because the discussion had been scheduled.

Were they bigoted? I don't think I have enough information to determine that. I would suggest prejudiced as a better term.

We switched establishments for a completely unrelated reason. After a year in the new church, there was a study to switch denominations. The pastor made it clear that he would leave without a change. The church voted to switch to the Evangelical Presbyterian Church which does not support . Shortly a sizable number of members drifted to other churches. The average age of the church increased sharply as younger families, including families of people that remained, left. That last issue led to my wife and daughter switching churches. I attend with my son who is involved with the youth group that is also dwindling.

Were all those that stayed prejudiced? I am very comfortable saying no. There are some who are the nicest, open hearted, open minded people I have ever met that stayed. Some others, not so much.

I don't believe churches or ministers will be forced to perform same sex marriages. I don't believe that gay marriage advocates want to make Christianity illegal as Mike Huckabee will claim. Fears based on those two suppositions, to me, are irrational. And they seem to be the biggest issue out there.

 

[Buzz123a]

Here is the statement from Bishop Warner H. Brown Jr., president of the United Methodist Council of Bishops. (Look at him - you can just TELL he's a bigot - just by looking - see the hate?

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Mark 12:31 says, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Throughout the history of the United States, the Supreme Court has been called on to ensure equality, liberty, and justice for all people. This can be seen in the abolition of slavery, the women’s movement, the civil rights movement of the 60s, and now in the fight for marriage equality.
Today, in a 5 to 4 decision, the United States Supreme Court ruled in favor of marriage equality for all people.
For decades, The United Methodist Church has debated this issue. Next year when General Conference gathers in Portland, Oregon, the decision to change, or reaffirm the church’s historic position will be considered. Pastors and congregations within our denomination hold opinions across the spectrum of this decision. Some sincerely believe our church policy is correct as it is. Others believe it is not correct. Across the spectrum, many believe our policy impacts our ability to make disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world. We seek to be a church that is inclusive enough to hold together people of different cultures, languages, and traditions.
In our Social Principles, United Methodists have stated our common belief around this value: We affirm that all persons are individuals of sacred worth, created in the image of God. All persons need the ministry of the Church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self.
This Supreme Court decision calls attention to the difference between the laws of the United States, and the policy of our church. The law does not require anyone to violate their conscience of what God has called them to do, or their theological understanding. But, if we seek to be an inclusive church that serves all of our parishioners, and all of our neighbors, we will have to consider how we treat all people equally. The heart of our call to ministry is to be pastor to the people of the congregation, and the community, we serve. May we continue to be a people of prayer, and hope, as we work towards a day of equality and inclusion for all people created in the image of God.
Alice Stokes Paul, women’s rights activist and leader in getting women the right to vote says, “I never doubted that equal rights was the right direction. Most reforms, most problems are complicated. But to me there is nothing complicated about ordinary equality.”
Grace and Peace,
Bishop Warner H. Brown, Jr.
President, Council of Bishops

What a horrible Christian man, huh?
Which concentration camp should he be sent to?

Assuming that this largely content-free drivel establishes that this dude is basically a decent though ignorant mammal, what do you think you've proved? Nobody, not even me, is suggesting that there aren't decent people out there whose worldview rests in a primitive superstition.

 

[hootch1]

Here is the statement from Bishop Warner H. Brown Jr., president of the United Methodist Council of Bishops. (Look at him - you can just TELL he's a bigot - just by looking - see the hate?

Actually, I cannot tell whether he is a bigot or not from the picture. David Duke smiled too. I'm pretty comfortable that he is a bigot. What am I keying off of?

 

[Zizkov]

Here is the statement from Bishop Warner H. Brown Jr., president of the United Methodist Council of Bishops. (Look at him - you can just TELL he's a bigot - just by looking - see the hate?

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Mark 12:31 says, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Throughout the history of the United States, the Supreme Court has been called on to ensure equality, liberty, and justice for all people. This can be seen in the abolition of slavery, the women’s movement, the civil rights movement of the 60s, and now in the fight for marriage equality.
Today, in a 5 to 4 decision, the United States Supreme Court ruled in favor of marriage equality for all people.
For decades, The United Methodist Church has debated this issue. Next year when General Conference gathers in Portland, Oregon, the decision to change, or reaffirm the church’s historic position will be considered. Pastors and congregations within our denomination hold opinions across the spectrum of this decision. Some sincerely believe our church policy is correct as it is. Others believe it is not correct. Across the spectrum, many believe our policy impacts our ability to make disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world. We seek to be a church that is inclusive enough to hold together people of different cultures, languages, and traditions.
In our Social Principles, United Methodists have stated our common belief around this value: We affirm that all persons are individuals of sacred worth, created in the image of God. All persons need the ministry of the Church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self.
This Supreme Court decision calls attention to the difference between the laws of the United States, and the policy of our church. The law does not require anyone to violate their conscience of what God has called them to do, or their theological understanding. But, if we seek to be an inclusive church that serves all of our parishioners, and all of our neighbors, we will have to consider how we treat all people equally. The heart of our call to ministry is to be pastor to the people of the congregation, and the community, we serve. May we continue to be a people of prayer, and hope, as we work towards a day of equality and inclusion for all people created in the image of God.
Alice Stokes Paul, women’s rights activist and leader in getting women the right to vote says, “I never doubted that equal rights was the right direction. Most reforms, most problems are complicated. But to me there is nothing complicated about ordinary equality.”
Grace and Peace,
Bishop Warner H. Brown, Jr.
President, Council of Bishops

What a horrible Christian man, huh?
Which concentration camp should he be sent to?

Have read a post here that says all Christians are horrible. There are a few decent ones. Saw this pic on my FB feed, I'm guess it's not VPM's church. Too much tolerance:

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Have read a post here that says all Christians are horrible. There are a few decent ones. Saw this pic on my FB feed, I'm guess it's not VPM's church. Too much tolerance:

Contrary to popular non-Christian belief, not all church folk are Westboro Baptists. In fact, the VAST majority of Christians are accepting of all kinds of "labeled" folks. They spend most of their free time feeding the homeless, caring for abused children, helping addicts, visiting people in prison, donating to other causes.

But here, "Christians" are considered "generally bigots."

Pisses me off.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Contrary to popular non-Christian belief, not all church folk are Westboro Baptists. In fact, the VAST majority of Christians are accepting of all kinds of "labeled" folks. They spend most of their free time feeding the homeless, caring for abused children, helping addicts, visiting people in prison, donating to other causes.

But here, "Christians" are considered "generally bigots."

Pisses me off.

I wouldn't say "vast" majority. You make it sound like hateful Christians are only found on the fringes. That's nonsense. Christians are just as likely to hate as any other American, and that means there are plenty of them out there hating.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

"Hateful" people aren't "Christians".
They just play them on TV.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

"Hateful" people aren't "Christians".
They just play them on TV.

Sorry, you don't get to decide who is and isn't a Christian. You want to say hateful Christians are "bad" Christians, go right ahead. But they are Christians.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Sorry, you don't get to decide who is and isn't a Christian. You want to say hateful Christians are "bad" Christians, go right ahead. But they are Christians.

Woo Hoo!

I'm an NFL Quarterback!

 

[Iudanapoint]

Sorry, you don't get to decide who is and isn't a Christian. You want to say hateful Christians are "bad" Christians, go right ahead. But they are Christians.

That only means you are ignorant as to what it means to be a Christian.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Sorry, you don't get to decide who is and isn't a Christian. You want to say hateful Christians are "bad" Christians, go right ahead. But they are Christians.

Shouldn't we say they believe they're Christians and believe they're behaving as Christ and God would want them to behave? Don't radical Islamist terrorists believe they're Muslim and believe they're behaving as Muhammad and God (Allah) would want them to behave?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Woo Hoo!

I'm an NFL Quarterback!

Please don't be stupid. This is serious. You can't claim some group of people is awesome, an when it's pointed out that some of those people actually suck, hide behind the "They're not real members" defense.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Shouldn't we say they believe they're Christians and believe they're behaving as Christ and God would want them to behave? Don't radical Islamist terrorists believe they're Muslim and believe they're behaving as Muhammad and God (Allah) would want them to behave?

If we want to be politically correct, sure. But there is no objective way of separating them. Who are you to say that bigotry isn't the real Christian way or terrorism isn't the true Muslim path?

 

[Buzz123a]

Contrary to popular non-Christian belief, not all church folk are Westboro Baptists. In fact, the VAST majority of Christians are accepting of all kinds of "labeled" folks. They spend most of their free time feeding the homeless, caring for abused children, helping addicts, visiting people in prison, donating to other causes.

But here, "Christians" are considered "generally bigots."

Pisses me off.

Nobody's claiming all Christians are horrible human beings, M. Its obviously ridiculous to claim that a majority of bible-thumpers, let alone a "vast majority," spend most of their free time on good works, but certainly a good many of them spend some meaningful time on that. So do a good many atheists, of course, and in fact studies show that they tend to spend more time, and more $$ than the faithful do.

Again, though, way off the point. Are christians generally bigots? I dunno; I don't think I've actually asserted that, though since the dictionary definition of the term involves intolerance of beliefs he or she doesn't share and rejection of competing or differing belief systems I think an argument can be made that all organized religion is by definition bigotry, and that the fact christians, jews and muslims are at war to this very day over differences in their superstitions makes the case.

My major complaint about religion is slightly different: I think its a primitive superstition, which not only enjoys no support in real-world evidence but flies in the face of absolute mountains of such evidence, that its irrational by definition, that adopting it as a world view requires one to check his brain at the door, and that people who do that are dangerous. Not only because of what they might do if they think god told them to, which clearly includes mass murder right down to this very Sunday morning, but because even those among you who are more or less safe for the rest of us to be around provide cover for those who aren't.

 

[Iudanapoint]

Please don't be stupid. This is serious. You can't claim some group of people is awesome, an when it's pointed out that some of those people actually suck, hide behind the "They're not real members" defense.

That's the argument that is routinely used to separate the fraction of Muslims who practice an extreme form of their religion from the vast majority who are both peaceful and inclusive. You've made the point on several occasions that it's unfair and improper to paint all Muslims with the broad brush of extremism, yet you say Christians must claim anyone who identifies as such, even if their views are well outside the mainstream. Why the obvious inconsistency?

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Nobody's claiming all Christians are horrible human beings, M. Its obviously ridiculous to claim that a majority of bible-thumpers, let alone a "vast majority," spend most of their free time on good works, but certainly a good many of them spend some meaningful time on that. So do a good many atheists, of course, and in fact studies show that they tend to spend more time, and more $$ than the faithful do.

Again, though, way off the point. Are christians generally bigots? I dunno; I don't think I've actually asserted that, though since the dictionary definition of the term involves intolerance of beliefs he or she doesn't share and rejection of competing or differing belief systems I think an argument can be made that all organized religion is by definition bigotry, and that the fact christians, jews and muslims are at war to this very day over differences in their superstitions makes the case.

My major complaint about religion is slightly different: I think its a primitive superstition, which not only enjoys no support in real-world evidence but flies in the face of absolute mountains of such evidence, that its irrational by definition, that adopting it as a world view requires one to check his brain at the door, and that people who do that are dangerous. Not only because of what they might do if they think god told them to, which clearly includes mass murder right down to this very Sunday morning, but because even those among you who are more or less safe for the rest of us to be around provide cover for those who aren't.

You claim you have not asserted that Christians are generally bigots?
Really?
Let me quote your post from 5:33 pm yesterday:

"Christians are generally bigots, V."

No wonder you can't back up what you say. You can't even remember it for 24 hours.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Please don't be stupid. This is serious. You can't claim some group of people is awesome, an when it's pointed out that some of those people actually suck, hide behind the "They're not real members" defense.

YOU be serious.

You aren't a Christian just because you say you are.
Jesus Christ himself died trying to make that point (among others).

Were the Pharisees "real" Jews - or were they getting it REALLY REALLY wrong?
Were they living the Kingdom of God?
Nope.

The Klan ain't Christian.
That kid who shot up that church ain't Christian.
Westboro Baptist AIN'T Christian.

And to quote the Prez, ISIS isn't Muslim.

A Christian loves the Lord with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves.
If you can do that, everything else pretty much falls into place.
(Not that its easy. In fact, Christians say you can't even do THAT absent divine intervention.)

I know people who were at church today and don't believe a divine man named Jesus ever really lived.
They call themselves Christians.
They do good works.
Do YOU call such people Christians?
I don't.
Anymore than I believe I'm a NFL QB because I say I am.

 

[Buzz123a]

G

YOU be serious.

You aren't a Christian just because you say you are.
Jesus Christ himself died trying to make that point (among others).

Were the Pharisees "real" Jews - or were they getting it REALLY REALLY wrong?
Were they living the Kingdom of God?
Nope.

The Klan ain't Christian.
That kid who shot up that church ain't Christian.
Westboro Baptist AIN'T Christian.

And to quote the Prez, ISIS isn't Muslim.

A Christian loves the Lord with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves.
If you can do that, everything else pretty much falls into place.
(Not that its easy. In fact, Christians say you can't even do THAT absent divine intervention.)

I know people who were at church today and don't believe a divine man named Jesus ever really lived.
They call themselves Christians.
They do good works.
Do YOU call such people Christians?
I don't.
Anymore than I believe I'm a NFL QB because I say I am.

Good for the Jesusman. I have a question, though: how could the son of god heal the sick, raise the dead, feed the multitudes, rouse the rabble, and perform other assorted miracles in the heartland of Jewish culture and an important outpost of the Roman Empire and leave no historical evidence whatsoever of his existence?
You needn't answer, because I already know the answer: you checked your brain at the door, and accepted superstition as your organizing principle because its so much easier than understanding the real world.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

YOU be serious.

You aren't a Christian just because you say you are.
Jesus Christ himself died trying to make that point (among others).

Were the Pharisees "real" Jews - or were they getting it REALLY REALLY wrong?
Were they living the Kingdom of God?
Nope.

The Klan ain't Christian.
That kid who shot up that church ain't Christian.
Westboro Baptist AIN'T Christian.

And to quote the Prez, ISIS isn't Muslim.

A Christian loves the Lord with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves.
If you can do that, everything else pretty much falls into place.
(Not that its easy. In fact, Christians say you can't even do THAT absent divine intervention.)

I know people who were at church today and don't believe a divine man named Jesus ever really lived.
They call themselves Christians.
They do good works.
Do YOU call such people Christians?
I don't.
Anymore than I believe I'm a NFL QB because I say I am.

Again, you are making a good argument that they are bad Christians. You can't make the argument they aren't Christian at all, because it requires us to accept your definition of Christian.

ISIS is Muslim. It is smart in this case for the President to say they are not, and take the politically correct route. But they are.

 

[hoot1]

Nobody's claiming all Christians are horrible human beings, M. Its obviously ridiculous to claim that a majority of bible-thumpers, let alone a "vast majority," spend most of their free time on good works, but certainly a good many of them spend some meaningful time on that. So do a good many atheists, of course, and in fact studies show that they tend to spend more time, and more $$ than the faithful do.

Again, though, way off the point. Are christians generally bigots? I dunno; I don't think I've actually asserted that, though since the dictionary definition of the term involves intolerance of beliefs he or she doesn't share and rejection of competing or differing belief systems I think an argument can be made that all organized religion is by definition bigotry, and that the fact christians, jews and muslims are at war to this very day over differences in their superstitions makes the case.

My major complaint about religion is slightly different: I think its a primitive superstition, which not only enjoys no support in real-world evidence but flies in the face of absolute mountains of such evidence, that its irrational by definition, that adopting it as a world view requires one to check his brain at the door, and that people who do that are dangerous. Not only because of what they might do if they think god told them to, which clearly includes mass murder right down to this very Sunday morning, but because even those among you who are more or less safe for the rest of us to be around provide cover for those who aren't.

Buzz, I was going to post the dictionary definition of bigot and was therefore pleased you posted it as follows, dictionary definition of the term involves intolerance of beliefs he or she doesn't share and rejection of competing or differing belief systems.

Seems to me many if not most dedicated believers to a particular religious doctrine would proudly acknowledge being bigoted when they reject tenets contrary to their beliefs. Does this mean, however, that they hate others who don't share their doctrine? I think not.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Again, you are making a good argument that they are bad Christians. You can't make the argument they aren't Christian at all, because it requires us to accept your definition of Christian.

ISIS is Muslim. It is smart in this case for the President to say they are not, and take the politically correct route. But they are.

Sigh.

So you're saying Hitler was a Catholic?
He was baptized and everything.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Have read a post here that says all Christians are horrible. There are a few decent ones. Saw this pic on my FB feed, I'm guess it's not VPM's church. Too much tolerance:

It could be my mine. My pastor is gay.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Sigh.

So you're saying Hitler was a Catholic?
He was baptized and everything.

I thought Hitler was nonreligious. But I honestly don't know. What's that got to do with anything?

 

[Buzz123a]

Buzz, I was going to post the dictionary definition of bigot and was therefore pleased you posted it as follows, dictionary definition of the term involves intolerance of beliefs he or she doesn't share and rejection of competing or differing belief systems.

Seems to me many if not most dedicated believers to a particular religious doctrine would proudly acknowledge being bigoted when they reject tenets contrary to their beliefs. Does this mean, however, that they hate others who don't share their doctrine? I think not.

Well, my experience differs from yours, hoot: I certainly don't think they all do, but the history of religious violence, which dates from the invention of religion to today, suggests that far too many of them are all too willing to die or kill for their beliefs, and I think its inarguable that way way too many of them, here in the USofA, are perfectly willing to force their beliefs on the rest of us as if and when they get the chance. Viz. the teaching of creationism in Louisiana schools.

 

[HenriPasseur]

A Christian loves the Lord with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves.
If you can do that, everything else pretty much falls into place.
(Not that its easy. In fact, Christians say you can't even do THAT absent divine intervention.)

1. A Christian loves the Lord with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves.
2. Christians say you can't even do THAT absent divine intervention.

3. Sound like not many Christians in world.
4. How Christian know if he Christian?
5. How you know is he Christian?
6. How you know is you Christian?
7. Only God know?

Are you Christian, MyTeam? If yes, how happen your divine intervention? I am curious.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

MTIOTF, who speaks for Christians? I assume you are an IU grad. When I started at IU there was a minister who stood in the woods near Ballantine. He would point at people he did not like for any number of reasons and scream that the were heathens and going to hell. He was there until at least the mid 80s. What I now realize is that mainstream churches should have been there to say that he does not speak for them and to point out why they are different.

On a more national level, Jerry Falwell stood up and claimed to speak for all Christians. Same as above, not many moderate Christians stood up to say he did not speak for them.

Back in the RFRA debate. I was looking at Christian sites. The conservative sites had no problems really hammering Disciples of Christ for pulling their national meeting from Indiana. I seldom see more moderate churches engage back.

So if non-Christians have the wrong impression, then the blame has to be somewhat shared.

For what it is worth, except for a couple years in ELCA, I have been Methodist since marrying in 1987. I was raised agnostic. I know you would not consider me Christian, I have never had that moment that tells me this is all true. I am too much a skeptic, and somewhat have that same issue TJ had with the miracles. But I am sympathetic to the point, the perception of Christians does not mirror my experience. Though a couple weeks ago ww went to some bizarre church near our house, and there I do believe people who see Christianity as evil would have their beliefs confirmed. We were treated well, but the sermon was very much us versus them.

This morning our Methodist minister suggested that he is convinced the UMC will eventually accept gay marriage. It is a matter of when, not if. I suspect that us true, and true of almost all churches. Divorce is almost universally accepted. It was not long ago that was a no-no. Same for interracial marriage.

The minister, who was raised a southern Baptist, made a comment I loved. He said he was told in seminary that a conservative is just a slow liberal.

It is often brought up that mainstream Islam does a poor job of speaking out against radical Islam. The same seems true with Christianity.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

1. A Christian loves the Lord with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves.
2. Christians say you can't even do THAT absent divine intervention.

3. Sound like not many Christians in world.
4. How Christian know if he Christian?
5. How you know is he Christian?
6. How you know is you Christian?
7. Only God know?

Are you Christian, MyTeam? If yes, how happen your divine intervention? I am curious.

Well, Henri, I was baptised and grew up attending church, and still do irregularly.
I wouldn't be identified by most "born again" folks as a "born again" Christian.
I try and fail pretty regularly.
I'd agree that there are very very few folks in most churches that live a life like Christ taught to live.
"By his works shall ye know him."
If anger and meanness are a sin - I've sinned a BUNCH on this board -
So I'd say "only God knows."

 

[DougS]

?...
I don't believe churches or ministers will be forced to perform same sex marriages. I don't believe that gay marriage advocates want to make Christianity illegal as Mike Huckabee will claim. Fears based on those two suppositions, to me, are irrational. And they seem to be the biggest issue out there.

Here's a link that indicates that at least one town intends to try to force the issue.http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/20/idaho-citys-ordinance-tells-pastors-to-marry-gays-/

 

[burbo]

MTIOTF, who speaks for Christians? I assume you are an IU grad. When I started at IU there was a minister who stood in the woods near Ballantine. He would point at people he did not like for any number of reasons and scream that the were heathens and going to hell. He was there until at least the mid 80s. What I now realize is that mainstream churches should have been there to say that he does not speak for them and to point out why they are different.

On a more national level, Jerry Falwell stood up and claimed to speak for all Christians. Same as above, not many moderate Christians stood up to say he did not speak for them.

Back in the RFRA debate. I was looking at Christian sites. The conservative sites had no problems really hammering Disciples of Christ for pulling their national meeting from Indiana. I seldom see more moderate churches engage back.

So if non-Christians have the wrong impression, then the blame has to be somewhat shared.

For what it is worth, except for a couple years in ELCA, I have been Methodist since marrying in 1987. I was raised agnostic. I know you would not consider me Christian, I have never had that moment that tells me this is all true. I am too much a skeptic, and somewhat have that same issue TJ had with the miracles. But I am sympathetic to the point, the perception of Christians does not mirror my experience. Though a couple weeks ago ww went to some bizarre church near our house, and there I do believe people who see Christianity as evil would have their beliefs confirmed. We were treated well, but the sermon was very much us versus them.

This morning our Methodist minister suggested that he is convinced the UMC will eventually accept gay marriage. It is a matter of when, not if. I suspect that us true, and true of almost all churches. Divorce is almost universally accepted. It was not long ago that was a no-no. Same for interracial marriage.

The minister, who was raised a southern Baptist, made a comment I loved. He said he was told in seminary that a conservative is just a slow liberal.

It is often brought up that mainstream Islam does a poor job of speaking out against radical Islam. The same seems true with Christianity.

The preacher on campus was likely brother Max, casting you into the lake of Fiiiiirrra (fire). I believe he visited many BIG campuses.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The preacher on campus was likely brother Max, casting you into the lake of Fiiiiirrra (fire). I believe he visited many BIG campuses.

Yes, it was in fact Max.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

MTIOTF, who speaks for Christians? I assume you are an IU grad. When I started at IU there was a minister who stood in the woods near Ballantine. He would point at people he did not like for any number of reasons and scream that the were heathens and going to hell. He was there until at least the mid 80s. What I now realize is that mainstream churches should have been there to say that he does not speak for them and to point out why they are different.

On a more national level, Jerry Falwell stood up and claimed to speak for all Christians. Same as above, not many moderate Christians stood up to say he did not speak for them.

Back in the RFRA debate. I was looking at Christian sites. The conservative sites had no problems really hammering Disciples of Christ for pulling their national meeting from Indiana. I seldom see more moderate churches engage back.

So if non-Christians have the wrong impression, then the blame has to be somewhat shared.

For what it is worth, except for a couple years in ELCA, I have been Methodist since marrying in 1987. I was raised agnostic. I know you would not consider me Christian, I have never had that moment that tells me this is all true. I am too much a skeptic, and somewhat have that same issue TJ had with the miracles. But I am sympathetic to the point, the perception of Christians does not mirror my experience. Though a couple weeks ago ww went to some bizarre church near our house, and there I do believe people who see Christianity as evil would have their beliefs confirmed. We were treated well, but the sermon was very much us versus them.

This morning our Methodist minister suggested that he is convinced the UMC will eventually accept gay marriage. It is a matter of when, not if. I suspect that us true, and true of almost all churches. Divorce is almost universally accepted. It was not long ago that was a no-no. Same for interracial marriage.

The minister, who was raised a southern Baptist, made a comment I loved. He said he was told in seminary that a conservative is just a slow liberal.

It is often brought up that mainstream Islam does a poor job of speaking out against radical Islam. The same seems true with Christianity.

Its a worthy question.

I certainly don't intend or want to.

But I can say I probably wouldn't exclude you, or any other person of good will struggling to "serve the Lord and love their neighbors.

I don't view doubt as a sin. Some would say faith requires doubt.

I don't claim to know the will of God, and don't trust folks who say they do. I'd be as hard on that Ballantine preacher as I am on Buzz. I think he drives people farther away from faith - not toward it. Same with the good intentioned folks who stand outside abortion clinics and inflict emotional distress on women. They drove them away.

I don't believe in the infallability of every word of Scripture.

If the Disciples could live with Jesus for three years and not "get it", the folks who later wrote and selected "holy texts" and interpreted them over centuries arejust as likely to have made mistakes. But I'll still look to the Bible over all other books for spiritual and life guidance.

I have not had a "Road to Damscus" moment either, but I don't discount them.
People get spiritual messages as they need them I guess.

But in the context of my recent posts, I see ZERO room to compare Van Pastor Man to the Westboro folks, and even though I don't share all of his views, I felt compelled to defend him, just as I would feel compelled to tell the Ballantine preacher "you are driving people away from Jesus - shut up please."

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Here's a link that indicates that at least one town intends to try to force the issue.http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/20/idaho-citys-ordinance-tells-pastors-to-marry-gays-/

Well, that didn't take long.

I had a guy tell me yesterday the churches SHOULD be required to perform same sex marriages, within minutes of Goat's posts thatnobody would try to make churches perform same sex marriages.

 

[Noodle]

I wouldn't say "vast" majority. You make it sound like hateful Christians are only found on the fringes. That's nonsense. Christians are just as likely to hate as any other American, and that means there are plenty of them out there hating.

That could be a catchy line from a song...haters gonna hate

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Max was still there when I started in 1997.

 

[Noodle]

Well, that didn't take long.

I had a guy tell me yesterday the churches SHOULD be required to perform same sex marriages, within minutes of Goat's posts thatnobody would try to make churches perform same sex marriages.

Well that settles it then, I guess Goat was wrong.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Well, that didn't take long.

I had a guy tell me yesterday the churches SHOULD be required to perform same sex marriages, within minutes of Goat's posts thatnobody would try to make churches perform same sex marriages.

Did I say no one would try? If so I should have said no one will succeed!

I also said, and I meant it, if a church in indiana is sued over the issue, I'd happily accept them as a client.