Anyone wanting to know who the real Lucy is, I am the person without a mask
For All the "Brave" Folks Who Want To Go Maskless
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This pandemic revealed the shortcomings of the "follow the science" mantra. Science should inform our decisions, not control them. I've heard many politicians say in this pandemic that we should follow the science. Most of them have said if one doesn't agree with them, you are a science denier or deny reality, or something.
Part of what it means to have a human mind is to consider the future effects of decisions made in the present. Science is great at telling us what is, science isn't so great at telling us what will be. Science definitely can't make value judgments and choices among competing, and maybe mutually exclusive, courses of action. Claims of "follow the science" is another way of unplugging ones mind and not making hard decisions. This pandemic is an example of that. The predictive models were terrible and the costs of following them are incalculable.
I've linked this previously. It's worth another look.
We lacked the data on infection rates in February and March that were needed to make a good assessment. Other countries followed the science very effectively by monitoring the spread through testing and avoiding massive lockdowns.
I agree that probably less than 5% of the people who do not wear masks are doing so to make a political stand, why this board is so insistent on saying it is a political stand is absurd.
The issue with the young is they want to live life, I wouldn't be surprised if over 50% of the individuals at this parties and such have already had it and never knew it. The real victims of this are the elderly, I just wonder if your 75 years old and feel like you have to stay quarantined how long is enough? So 4 years from now and your 79 and have had limited contact with anyone or anything was it worth it? (I use 4 years as just an example before the haters start going on about not knowing timelines for this).
FWIW my parents and many of their friends are Republicans and they all wear masks when they go out into the public.
And you wonder why this there is no end game to this all...
Mulvaney: 'We've overreacted a little bit' to coronavirus
Former White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney said Monday he believes the U.S. has "overreacted a little bit" to the coronavirus pandemic, arguing that Americans can get back to work sooner rather than later if they observe social distancing and wear masks.
The former congressman and budget chief for the Trump administration cited recent Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidance finding the virus does not spread easily via surfaces to assert the country may have gone too far with restrictions.
"The fact that it’s difficult to get this disease from touching stuff… should sort of reset how we look at this," Mulvaney said on CNBC. "What it means is that if we are carful about social distancing and putting on masks and so forth, we should be able to go back to work sooner rather than later."
Mulvaney said he flew on an airplane over the weekend and would be "completely comfortable" sitting in a middle seat if he and both passengers next to him had masks on to limit the odds of transmitting the disease.
"I think we’ve sort of lost perspective on this a little bit, Joe, and we’ve overreacted a little bit," he told co-host Joe Kernen.
He referenced the 2017-2018 flu season, when roughly 80,000 people in the U.S. died of influenza, to draw a contrast between how the country reacted then to how it has reacted to the coronavirus pandemic, which has killed nearly 100,000 Americans in roughly three months.
"Not to say that COVID is the ordinary flu, that’s not my point," Mulvaney said. "But my point is that almost 100,000 people died two years ago from flu and the country didn’t shut down. It’s time to sort of deal with this in the proper perspective, and that’s to allow us to get back to work safely."
The argument was similar to one President Trump has made previously, and it comes as the White House is urging Americans to reopen businesses and return to work. The virus has forced scores of businesses to shutter, and more than 36 million Americans have filed for unemployment.
Mulvaney spoke with CNBC's "Squawk Box" in his first televised appearance since leaving the White House in March. He was widely criticized for saying at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in late February that the press was only covering coronavirus so aggressively in an attempt to "bring down" President Trump.
The U.S. leads the world in reported virus cases by far, with more than 1.6 million confirmed infections, according to data from Johns Hopkins.
Mulvaney: 'We've overreacted a little bit' to coronavirus
Former White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney said Monday he believes the U.S. has "overreacted a little bit" to the coronavirus pandemic, arguing that Americans can get back to work sooner rather than later if they observe social distancing and wear masks.
The former congressman and budget chief for the Trump administration cited recent Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidance finding the virus does not spread easily via surfaces to assert the country may have gone too far with restrictions.
"The fact that it’s difficult to get this disease from touching stuff… should sort of reset how we look at this," Mulvaney said on CNBC. "What it means is that if we are carful about social distancing and putting on masks and so forth, we should be able to go back to work sooner rather than later."
Mulvaney said he flew on an airplane over the weekend and would be "completely comfortable" sitting in a middle seat if he and both passengers next to him had masks on to limit the odds of transmitting the disease.
"I think we’ve sort of lost perspective on this a little bit, Joe, and we’ve overreacted a little bit," he told co-host Joe Kernen.
He referenced the 2017-2018 flu season, when roughly 80,000 people in the U.S. died of influenza, to draw a contrast between how the country reacted then to how it has reacted to the coronavirus pandemic, which has killed nearly 100,000 Americans in roughly three months.
"Not to say that COVID is the ordinary flu, that’s not my point," Mulvaney said. "But my point is that almost 100,000 people died two years ago from flu and the country didn’t shut down. It’s time to sort of deal with this in the proper perspective, and that’s to allow us to get back to work safely."
The argument was similar to one President Trump has made previously, and it comes as the White House is urging Americans to reopen businesses and return to work. The virus has forced scores of businesses to shutter, and more than 36 million Americans have filed for unemployment.
Mulvaney spoke with CNBC's "Squawk Box" in his first televised appearance since leaving the White House in March. He was widely criticized for saying at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in late February that the press was only covering coronavirus so aggressively in an attempt to "bring down" President Trump.
The U.S. leads the world in reported virus cases by far, with more than 1.6 million confirmed infections, according to data from Johns Hopkins.
And you wonder why this there is no end game to this all...
Mulvaney: 'We've overreacted a little bit' to coronavirus
Former White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney said Monday he believes the U.S. has "overreacted a little bit" to the coronavirus pandemic, arguing that Americans can get back to work sooner rather than later if they observe social distancing and wear masks.
The former congressman and budget chief for the Trump administration cited recent Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidance finding the virus does not spread easily via surfaces to assert the country may have gone too far with restrictions.
"The fact that it’s difficult to get this disease from touching stuff… should sort of reset how we look at this," Mulvaney said on CNBC. "What it means is that if we are carful about social distancing and putting on masks and so forth, we should be able to go back to work sooner rather than later."
Mulvaney said he flew on an airplane over the weekend and would be "completely comfortable" sitting in a middle seat if he and both passengers next to him had masks on to limit the odds of transmitting the disease.
"I think we’ve sort of lost perspective on this a little bit, Joe, and we’ve overreacted a little bit," he told co-host Joe Kernen.
He referenced the 2017-2018 flu season, when roughly 80,000 people in the U.S. died of influenza, to draw a contrast between how the country reacted then to how it has reacted to the coronavirus pandemic, which has killed nearly 100,000 Americans in roughly three months.
"Not to say that COVID is the ordinary flu, that’s not my point," Mulvaney said. "But my point is that almost 100,000 people died two years ago from flu and the country didn’t shut down. It’s time to sort of deal with this in the proper perspective, and that’s to allow us to get back to work safely."
The argument was similar to one President Trump has made previously, and it comes as the White House is urging Americans to reopen businesses and return to work. The virus has forced scores of businesses to shutter, and more than 36 million Americans have filed for unemployment.
Mulvaney spoke with CNBC's "Squawk Box" in his first televised appearance since leaving the White House in March. He was widely criticized for saying at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in late February that the press was only covering coronavirus so aggressively in an attempt to "bring down" President Trump.
The U.S. leads the world in reported virus cases by far, with more than 1.6 million confirmed infections, according to data from Johns Hopkins.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html
The CDC also says its "best estimate" is that 0.4% of people who show symptoms and have Covid-19 will die, and the agency estimates that 40% of coronavirus transmission is occurring before people feel sick.
And you wonder why this there is no end game to this all...
Mulvaney: 'We've overreacted a little bit' to coronavirus
Former White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney said Monday he believes the U.S. has "overreacted a little bit" to the coronavirus pandemic, arguing that Americans can get back to work sooner rather than later if they observe social distancing and wear masks.
The former congressman and budget chief for the Trump administration cited recent Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidance finding the virus does not spread easily via surfaces to assert the country may have gone too far with restrictions.
"The fact that it’s difficult to get this disease from touching stuff… should sort of reset how we look at this," Mulvaney said on CNBC. "What it means is that if we are carful about social distancing and putting on masks and so forth, we should be able to go back to work sooner rather than later."
Mulvaney said he flew on an airplane over the weekend and would be "completely comfortable" sitting in a middle seat if he and both passengers next to him had masks on to limit the odds of transmitting the disease.
"I think we’ve sort of lost perspective on this a little bit, Joe, and we’ve overreacted a little bit," he told co-host Joe Kernen.
He referenced the 2017-2018 flu season, when roughly 80,000 people in the U.S. died of influenza, to draw a contrast between how the country reacted then to how it has reacted to the coronavirus pandemic, which has killed nearly 100,000 Americans in roughly three months.
"Not to say that COVID is the ordinary flu, that’s not my point," Mulvaney said. "But my point is that almost 100,000 people died two years ago from flu and the country didn’t shut down. It’s time to sort of deal with this in the proper perspective, and that’s to allow us to get back to work safely."
The argument was similar to one President Trump has made previously, and it comes as the White House is urging Americans to reopen businesses and return to work. The virus has forced scores of businesses to shutter, and more than 36 million Americans have filed for unemployment.
Mulvaney spoke with CNBC's "Squawk Box" in his first televised appearance since leaving the White House in March. He was widely criticized for saying at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in late February that the press was only covering coronavirus so aggressively in an attempt to "bring down" President Trump.
The U.S. leads the world in reported virus cases by far, with more than 1.6 million confirmed infections, according to data from Johns Hopkins.
Get ready to be hit with post after post about how this is inaccurate, as a matter of fact probably 4-5 will write a novel with 3-4 links trying to disprove this theory. Should be great reading for you later in the day.
It’s absurd. Some are living in a bubble and don’t realize how many millions of people don’t follow politics. At all. A
Did you see Cuomo's briefing about being out of the guessing game, that all of the national experts were wrong with their early models, etc. This thing has been nothing short of a debacle. This is obviously a very contagious virus that has dire results for certain populations, but our response has 100% been an overreaction.https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html
The CDC also says its "best estimate" is that 0.4% of people who show symptoms and have Covid-19 will die, and the agency estimates that 40% of coronavirus transmission is occurring before people feel sick.
I agree that other countries were more effective. I disagree that was because of “following the science” or testing. It was more happenstance. Disease vectors play an important role. Ours are unique in the world. Instead of comparing the US to any particular country, a better comparison would be to compare us to all of Europe.
See this. It appears NYC was a major distribution center for the virus. That was because of a combination of physical conditions and local and state decisions. To stem the tide, we would have needed to use a Wuhan style lockdown in NYC which is impossible to do.
More about this. The virus travels inside human beings. It doesn’t last more than a day or two outside of a human. The United States leads the world in air passenger travel and is way ahead of second place. IMO this is a big part of the reason why the virus had spread around so quickly. It wasn’t because of lack of testing.
We didn't have the benefit of hindsight. The initial attack was pretty severe. We could wait and see if we are facing a modern black death, or take action. We opted for the action. I linked a quote that said in hindsight it was an overreaction. But we know there were problems. We know NYC went over ICU capacity. I linked the story about K Hulls saying Indianapolis North went over ICU capacity (I suspect other Indy emergency rooms went over capacity in Indianapolis as well, I can think of no logical reason only North would be impacted).
So there was a real problem. And the further over capacity we go, the more deaths there would be.
So yes, there was an overreaction. Since we didn't shut the country down, it was in specific locations like Wyoming and Alaska. I look at the Indiana map daily. The area around Indy was hit hard, but so was Columbus and Greensburg. So it wasn't even tied directly to urban areas. Bloomington is, amazingly, at a very low rate. But the fact that Columbus has at least 33 deaths and Greensburg 31 deaths shows the problem is more than Indy (Bloomington has 10 by comparison).
We waited to long too long to take it seriously (see start of B10 tournament as evidence #1). That delay made the problem appear to blow up out of no where with tremendous speed. Indianapolis went from first confirmed case to overfilled ICUs in 2 weeks. So we over steered to correct. It would be great if we hadn't, but we lacked good data to go on.
I haven't listened to much after his constant warnings about ventilator shortages, which was wrong on multiple fronts.
We still lack "good" data to base decisions upon. Curious, are the disproportionate amount of deaths in Greensburg and Columbus nursing home-related?
There is an argument that there is not a good 1-to-1 comparator to the US experience with COVID. All of Europe is maybe the best, but that includes multiple political jurisdictions and health systems. But the disproportionate impact in the US has become so large it's indicative of a poor response.
Was anyone too surprised that NYC was a hotspot? The timing of the lockdown was probably more important than the severity. And without testing data, was it reasonable to shut it down on a hunch? Remember all the arguments about whether it was an overreaction to shut-down March Madness?
Hopefully we've learned a tough lesson about the importance of getting testing right.
I agree air travel is a big part of why the US is being hit so hard. And it will continue to be a big reason for the spread.
Good for them. They're looking out for others. It's those who choose to not wear masks that are putting them at risk.
Just guessing, but there's a Honda plant in Greensburg and Cummins in Columbus. Probably a lot of traffic in and out.
I assume so. But the ratio of infections are way off as well. Per 10,000 Bloomington is 10.8, Columbus is 57 and Greensburg 84.
The Alvins were all closed on Sunday. They were all attending the mock lynching of Gov Beshear...
These are Ohio cities, correct? https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/covid-19/dashboards/long-term-care-facilities/cases
oops, I guess those are also Indiana towns. Indiana State dashboard doesn't seem to list facility level states for nursing homes.
IMO, you're absolving Trump of too much of the responsibility he bears for our lack of preparedness to deal with or even prevent this tragedy. There were safeguards in place, that were designed specifically to MONITOR events in China that could foretell or even control a possible situation like what happened in Wuhan. There was not only a CDC presence that had been established in China over 40 yrs ago, but there was a Specific US official tasked with monitoring any possible outbreaks in China and then communicating directly with US officials...
Trump made budget decisions based on HIS priorities that basically resulted in severe cutbacks within the CDC delegation in China, and the elimination of the position of the person whose specific job was to Monitor and COMMUNICATE with US officials. It's typical trumpian modus operandi to blame the Chinese for not "warning us", but the fact remains that up until the summer of 2019 we basically had our own spy in China whose job it was to guarantee that if something happened we knew about it...
" Several months before the coronavirus pandemic began, the Trump administration eliminated a key American public health position in Beijing intended to help detect disease outbreaks in China, Reuters has learned.
The American disease expert, a medical epidemiologist embedded in China’s disease control agency, left her post in July, according to four sources with knowledge of the issue. The first cases of the new coronavirus may have emerged as early as November, and as cases exploded, the Trump administration in February chastised China for censoring information about the outbreak and keeping U.S. experts from entering the country to help.
“It was heartbreaking to watch,” said Bao-Ping Zhu, a Chinese American who served in that role, which was funded by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, between 2007 and 2011. “If someone had been there, public health officials and governments across the world could have moved much faster.”
https://www.physiciansweekly.com/exclusive-u-s-axed-cdc/
And can we briefly discuss the ludicrous notion put forth by Team Trump that Obama left the cupboard bare on "pandemic preparedness"...
"President Donald Trump has repeatedly blamed former President Barack Obama for his own administration’s mishandling of the coronavirus pandemic.
“The last administration left us nothing,” Trump said last month.
But the St. Louis Post-Dispatch found that Trump’s own budget documents show the opposite ― exposing what it called “a lie of colossal Trumpian proportions.”
The newspaper’s editorial board said the Trump administration told Congress that the Obama administration left it with everything needed for a pandemic ― and sought big budget cuts from the programs as a result.
Trump’s 2020 budget asked Congress to cut the pandemic preparedness budget by $102.9 million, part of $595.5 million in requested cuts to public health preparedness and response outlay.
“Obama left office with an unblemished record of building up the nation’s pandemic preparedness,” the newspaper said. “Trump systematically sought to dismantle it.”
https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/trump-obama-pandemic-budget-cuts-085217775.html
Does anyone want to hazard a guess on what "project" Trump wanted the $$ from those cuts to go to?
Here's an update on how long it remains infectious inside a human being:
https://www.foxnews.com/science/covid-19-patients-not-infectious-11-days-after-getting-sick
It's also been known since early March that COVID19 can remain viable on stainless steel for up to 3 days...
We are (in my opinion) headed for a 2nd wave of this stuff and it will be fueled by people who should have known better...
I skimmed through what you wrote and i think get the gist of it. i don't think the things you wrote made much of a difference though. at least not a material difference. we already had ample time to act because of the advanced warning provided by the nations that had it before us. the agencies designed to deal with it still don't know how to do deal with it. the experts in the other countries that were in place are still trying to find vaccines/meds for it. they don't know how to deal with it. in short i don't think anything you cite is material to what's a novel virus.
i fault trump after the fact. i fault trump and the govt for not doing a better job of recognizing the impact the virus had in other countries, vetting who is most vulnerable based on same, and failing to come up with a coordinated effort "to live" with the virus in a timely fashion by isolating certain persons and regions. imo trump, fauci, pelosi, deblasio, cuomo, etc. have been a mickey mouse operation with this entire thing. typical government in my opinion. from the masks to the stupid models that now cuomo says were all wrong to the locking down of the entire country has been stupid. i was wrong to use the word overreaction above because it's never overreacting when it saves lives. but the quality of life of a nation has been compromised through poor leadership and planning.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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If a scientist changing his mind as more data comes in makes you think less of the scientist then you have bigger problems...
I think that's the point. Relying on scientific suggestions/directives without complete data is the problem. We locked down an entire country and destroyed people's lives based on models that cuomo basically said today were worthless.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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That’s called making a decision based on what was known at the time. The other countries did it and it helped significantly.
We can surely come away from this with revised plans for “next time” but they made the right call at the time. Thinking otherwise is just playing revisionist history.
You hit the nail on the head, you like to argue not discuss.Yeah, we like our arguments to be able to fit on a bumper sticker!
My Mom still loves me though!
I read some of your posts and I wonder with all the doom and gloom you project why get out of bed in the morning? I know this sounds hateful but just go back and take a self inventory of your posts and you'll see what I mean.
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