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Florida Condo Collapse.

you're really reaching on the pool deck thing, and if the deck itself had collapsed it would be collapsed, which it isn't..

and how many zillion other buildings with a pool have similar issues, that didn't collapse.

and the pool is a ways away from the building, so i have to question how much of the water issues reached under the structure itself, rather than under the area immediate to the pool itself.

that said, i think most can speculate that this was a failure of the support columns in the parking garage, the question is, why did they fail.

and how many would have to fail at once for what happened to happen?

does one domino failing take out everything?

i don't design buildings, but i would think such structures have safeguards such that even if one column failed, especially in a parking garage setting where a heavy vehicle could ram one already in bad shape, that that wouldn't bring down the whole thing.

that said, the level of push back that this even remotely possibly could have been foul play, i find interesting in itself, as hard not to think it as likely as anything else, especially considering the economic situation of some units.

i also found it strange that bomb sniffing dogs weren't there the next day, along with the search and rescue squads.

it's now been well over a month, and whatever scent there was, if there was any, has to be much less now and diminishing with every day.

well over a month, and not one peep as to any investigations into the cause.

i get it that there will be economic ramifications beyond belief whether the cause is failed concrete and rebar, or foul play, and far better if the story just went away from an economic pov..

thus if making predictions on the matter, my prediction is that the story will get buried as long as possible, and in the end there will be some page 12 one paragraph release that no definitive cause was found, that doesn't even make the corporate tv media news cycle.
How many times has someone been able to take out an inhabited condo with demo explosives without anyone noticing the fact that someone was planting those explosives perfectly to take the building out?

Your main argument seems to be: If something has never happened, then it can never happen. Well, in this case, due to what looks like a perfect storm of events, it did.

You do know that you don't just put those explosives in a backpack and throw them on the ground, right?
 
How many times has someone been able to take out an inhabited condo with demo explosives without anyone noticing the fact that someone was planting those explosives perfectly to take the building out?

Your main argument seems to be: If something has never happened, then it can never happen. Well, in this case, due to what looks like a perfect storm of events, it did.

You do know that you don't just put those explosives in a backpack and throw them on the ground, right?


ok, so what never happened before happened, to take it down, and why are you so sure?

and duh, it was a parking garage.

a lot move explosive can go in a van(s) than a backpack, and no one would even know.
 
Yeah, I saw my circular flaw the minute I hit "Post reply". :mad:

I'm not 100% sure...but I am 98.9% sure.

sure of what?

you somehow omitted that part.

and go back and catch my edit to the post you quoted, about the parking garage thing.

not exactly an insignificant thing.

that said, why exactly couldn't someone throw explosives in a backpack.

if foul play was involved, all they were concerned with was the "demo" part, not the "controlled" part.

and again, a van holds a lot more explosive than a backpack, and no one would even suspect.
 
How many times has someone been able to take out an inhabited condo with demo explosives without anyone noticing the fact that someone was planting those explosives perfectly to take the building out?

Your main argument seems to be: If something has never happened, then it can never happen. Well, in this case, due to what looks like a perfect storm of events, it did.

You do know that you don't just put those explosives in a backpack and throw them on the ground, right?
It has happened. He’s wrong about that too.
 
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Over a month and nobody has checked into the ignited unicorn farts hypothesis. Quite OBVIOUSLY a coverup.

I'vegotwinners has a nice pickup.

ECnEuohU8AAsHir.jpg:large
 
It has happened. He’s wrong about that too.


yes, it has.

look familiar???


pic_building.jpg



Oklahoma City Federal Building, one van.

and just parked in front of the bldg, not underneath.

please post pics of in use modern buildings that just collapsed that weren't foul play, and detail why they came down.

still waiting for those you claim many instances of.
 
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we have the video. It was a building in Surfside. No unicorns are seen in the video
 
Over a month and nobody has checked into the ignited unicorn farts hypothesis. Quite OBVIOUSLY a coverup.

I'vegotwinners has a nice pickup.

ECnEuohU8AAsHir.jpg:large
I’d bet that he’s a Truther too. It’s interesting to see his conspiratorial imagination in action. I think it might be hallucinogens. That would explain his writing style too.
 
yes, it has.

look familiar???


pic_building.jpg



Oklahoma City Federal Building, one van.

and just parked in front of the bldg, not underneath.

please post pics of in use modern buildings that just collapsed that weren't foul play, and detail why they came down.

still waiting for those you claim many instances of.
Do you not know how to use a search engine?
 
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you're really reaching on the pool deck thing, and if the deck itself had collapsed it would be collapsed, which it isn't..

and how many zillion other buildings with a pool have similar issues, that didn't collapse.

and the pool is a ways away from the building, so i have to question how much of the water issues reached under the structure itself, rather than under the area immediate to the pool itself.
OK, a bit to unpack here, so this is going to be long This would be alot easier with a CAD drawing I could put together, but I'll try to describe it in words. I am a mechanical engineer, not a structural, but I am in the industry of building design, so I review structural drawings all the time (mostly just to make sure that it doesn't interfere with my stuff). So I can't detail out the calculations that they use to design these buildings, but I can tell you how they are generally built.

The "pool deck" is just the designation of the floor level. In this case, a layer of 4" or 6" concrete was set on top of the ground and only the area where the pool itself is located was there any kind of excavation. It is not hollow underneath the rest of the ground there. OK, let's imagine a plus sign (+). It is four lines coming out from a center point. The left side line is the pool deck, and there is ground (soil) underneath it, so everything in the bottom left quadrant is filled with soil. The down line is the wall to the basement / garage. The right line is the ceiling to the garage. The up line is the outer wall to the first floor. You have air in the other three quadrants.

The pool room is located in the bottom right quadrant. I actually design pool rooms, so this is in my wheelhouse. There are two pipes that pass from the pool room, through that bottom line wall, under the ground, out to the recessed pool. Let's say that one of those pipes sprung a leak just outside of the wall on the left side of the bottom line. That water will both A) Pool underground, slowly eroding the soil away, and B) probably leak back into the pool room. We have reports from the pool maintenance guys that there was standing water in the room, and this had been going on for at least two years (as they said in the article that they had to replace the sump pump every two years from overuse). So not only is the support underneath the left line being removed, but water is permeating the bottom line concrete wall, making it weaker. And because the pool heating unit doesn't necessarily run 24/7, the area could also dry up at intervals, leaving an air pocket in the bottom left quadrant.

So what ends up happening is that the ground in that bottom left quadrant erodes away. That soil was providing a lateral force to the wall and also holding up the 4"/6" pool deck concrete slab. A critical point is reached where the 4"/6" pad can no longer hold up cantilevered over air, and it cracks and falls. This would be considered a pool deck collapse, even if it was only the last 5' of the deck where it was next to the building. So now the left side of the plus is gone. That pad was also providing lateral support to the whole plus sign. The down line wall has been soaking in water and chlorides for years and is weaker and crumbling (again, we have witness reports of how the walls of the pool room had significant cracks and chunks missing.


that said, i think most can speculate that this was a failure of the support columns in the parking garage, the question is, why did they fail.

and how many would have to fail at once for what happened to happen?

does one domino failing take out everything?

i don't design buildings, but i would think such structures have safeguards such that even if one column failed, especially in a parking garage setting where a heavy vehicle could ram one already in bad shape, that that wouldn't bring down the whole thing.

This is actually your best set of questions. The answer is it depends upon the structural engineer who designed it, but it is usually in the realm of one column of safety (as in, you would need to take out a minimum two columns to get a domino-inducing collapse). Columns are usually located 20 to 30 feet apart, so it is not particularly feasible that a truck will take out two columns (because, quite frankly, these columns are 2' x 2' reinforced concrete, the force it takes to take out one column is usually enough to cause enough damage to the vehicle that it does not have the momentum / ability to take out another one 25' away). But let's make something clear, that safety factor of single column failing is not a long term thing. It should be that if someone takes out a column, you have hours, a day tops, to get everybody out of that building and get a temporary support in place to keep the building from falling.

If I had to take a guess, the situation I described above happened. I suspect that the basement wall in the pool room started to crumble a day or two before the collapse. Sadly, those pool rooms are not visited daily. Sometimes not even weekly. When the pool deck collapsed, the lack of lateral support from the pool deck pad and the basement wall / column base. If that water pocket was 25' long and was weakening two columns, then I suspect one failed first and the other one failed within minutes thereafter. Then the domino effect kicked in.

that said, the level of push back that this even remotely possibly could have been foul play, i find interesting in itself, as hard not to think it as likely as anything else, especially considering the economic situation of some units.

i also found it strange that bomb sniffing dogs weren't there the next day, along with the search and rescue squads.

it's now been well over a month, and whatever scent there was, if there was any, has to be much less now and diminishing with every day.

well over a month, and not one peep as to any investigations into the cause.
You are trying to prove a negative (ie. no bomb sniffing dogs were used, therefore it must be a bomb that did it). I'll say it again, shape charges / bombs that are capable of taking out building columns are not m80 firecrackers. They are MASSIVE explosions. Something that people would be hearing for miles away. I invite you to watch this video:



These guys were using various explosives to put a hole in a 6" concrete wall. Nobody has reported anything close to the kind of loud noise that would be associated with an explosive large enough to take out a column. You can hear the sound in the video and they are over 100 feet away. And again, that's just what it takes to take out a 6" wall. And if an explosion was used, again, there will be residue on the concrete column debris that can be analyzed.

You are asking why this doesn't happen more often? It's because cities inspect buildings from time to time and usually find these problems with enough time to fix them. If I had to point to one particular reason why this building collapsed....sadly, I'd say it was Coronavirus. A building inspector found the cracks / crumbling issue back in 2018. The tenants probably spent valuable time trying to figure out how they could get out of paying for the repairs, and by the time things should have started moving, BAM, Covid 19 hits and everything gets put on the back burner for a year.

Is it possible that there was foul play? I guess, But I think you should be taking a lesson from Achem's razor here. These are facts:

1) The building inspector found cracks in structural members and recommended fixes. They were not fixed and the situation got worse over a period of THREEE YEARS.
2) The pool room pictures showed that the room was flooded and had this issue for at least two years.
3) The pool room pictures showed crumbling on the ceiling near the outer wall (the middle of the "plus").
4) Repairs for the building did recently start, but they started on the roof. It is very possible that extra load (heavy equipment) had been recently used on the roof, potentially adding additional overall weight on the already failing columns / walls.
5) Tenants complained about creaking noises the day before the collapse.
6) Nobody has reported a loud explosion, the type it would take to take out building columns.

It seems like you are complicating the situation for no reason.
 
OK, a bit to unpack here, so this is going to be long This would be alot easier with a CAD drawing I could put together, but I'll try to describe it in words. I am a mechanical engineer, not a structural, but I am in the industry of building design, so I review structural drawings all the time (mostly just to make sure that it doesn't interfere with my stuff). So I can't detail out the calculations that they use to design these buildings, but I can tell you how they are generally built.

The "pool deck" is just the designation of the floor level. In this case, a layer of 4" or 6" concrete was set on top of the ground and only the area where the pool itself is located was there any kind of excavation. It is not hollow underneath the rest of the ground there. OK, let's imagine a plus sign (+). It is four lines coming out from a center point. The left side line is the pool deck, and there is ground (soil) underneath it, so everything in the bottom left quadrant is filled with soil. The down line is the wall to the basement / garage. The right line is the ceiling to the garage. The up line is the outer wall to the first floor. You have air in the other three quadrants.

The pool room is located in the bottom right quadrant. I actually design pool rooms, so this is in my wheelhouse. There are two pipes that pass from the pool room, through that bottom line wall, under the ground, out to the recessed pool. Let's say that one of those pipes sprung a leak just outside of the wall on the left side of the bottom line. That water will both A) Pool underground, slowly eroding the soil away, and B) probably leak back into the pool room. We have reports from the pool maintenance guys that there was standing water in the room, and this had been going on for at least two years (as they said in the article that they had to replace the sump pump every two years from overuse). So not only is the support underneath the left line being removed, but water is permeating the bottom line concrete wall, making it weaker. And because the pool heating unit doesn't necessarily run 24/7, the area could also dry up at intervals, leaving an air pocket in the bottom left quadrant.

So what ends up happening is that the ground in that bottom left quadrant erodes away. That soil was providing a lateral force to the wall and also holding up the 4"/6" pool deck concrete slab. A critical point is reached where the 4"/6" pad can no longer hold up cantilevered over air, and it cracks and falls. This would be considered a pool deck collapse, even if it was only the last 5' of the deck where it was next to the building. So now the left side of the plus is gone. That pad was also providing lateral support to the whole plus sign. The down line wall has been soaking in water and chlorides for years and is weaker and crumbling (again, we have witness reports of how the walls of the pool room had significant cracks and chunks missing.




This is actually your best set of questions. The answer is it depends upon the structural engineer who designed it, but it is usually in the realm of one column of safety (as in, you would need to take out a minimum two columns to get a domino-inducing collapse). Columns are usually located 20 to 30 feet apart, so it is not particularly feasible that a truck will take out two columns (because, quite frankly, these columns are 2' x 2' reinforced concrete, the force it takes to take out one column is usually enough to cause enough damage to the vehicle that it does not have the momentum / ability to take out another one 25' away). But let's make something clear, that safety factor of single column failing is not a long term thing. It should be that if someone takes out a column, you have hours, a day tops, to get everybody out of that building and get a temporary support in place to keep the building from falling.

If I had to take a guess, the situation I described above happened. I suspect that the basement wall in the pool room started to crumble a day or two before the collapse. Sadly, those pool rooms are not visited daily. Sometimes not even weekly. When the pool deck collapsed, the lack of lateral support from the pool deck pad and the basement wall / column base. If that water pocket was 25' long and was weakening two columns, then I suspect one failed first and the other one failed within minutes thereafter. Then the domino effect kicked in.


You are trying to prove a negative (ie. no bomb sniffing dogs were used, therefore it must be a bomb that did it). I'll say it again, shape charges / bombs that are capable of taking out building columns are not m80 firecrackers. They are MASSIVE explosions. Something that people would be hearing for miles away. I invite you to watch this video:



These guys were using various explosives to put a hole in a 6" concrete wall. Nobody has reported anything close to the kind of loud noise that would be associated with an explosive large enough to take out a column. You can hear the sound in the video and they are over 100 feet away. And again, that's just what it takes to take out a 6" wall. And if an explosion was used, again, there will be residue on the concrete column debris that can be analyzed.

You are asking why this doesn't happen more often? It's because cities inspect buildings from time to time and usually find these problems with enough time to fix them. If I had to point to one particular reason why this building collapsed....sadly, I'd say it was Coronavirus. A building inspector found the cracks / crumbling issue back in 2018. The tenants probably spent valuable time trying to figure out how they could get out of paying for the repairs, and by the time things should have started moving, BAM, Covid 19 hits and everything gets put on the back burner for a year.

Is it possible that there was foul play? I guess, But I think you should be taking a lesson from Achem's razor here. These are facts:

1) The building inspector found cracks in structural members and recommended fixes. They were not fixed and the situation got worse over a period of THREEE YEARS.
2) The pool room pictures showed that the room was flooded and had this issue for at least two years.
3) The pool room pictures showed crumbling on the ceiling near the outer wall (the middle of the "plus").
4) Repairs for the building did recently start, but they started on the roof. It is very possible that extra load (heavy equipment) had been recently used on the roof, potentially adding additional overall weight on the already failing columns / walls.
5) Tenants complained about creaking noises the day before the collapse.
6) Nobody has reported a loud explosion, the type it would take to take out building columns.

It seems like you are complicating the situation for no reason.
Very nice work sir. But I don't think he was complicating it for no reason, he was being suspicious because he had not heard/ found this type of reasoning/ explanation/ coverage.
Again, very nice work.
 
Bridges don't just collapse unless they are blown up!





and thousands more links.

Isn't Google great?
 
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BTW, as a comparative case study:

This building had building columns that also suffered water damage and the bases of the columns crumbled. The difference here being that the section of the building only dropped a few inches and didn't have a catastrophic failure.
 
BTW, as a comparative case study:

This building had building columns that also suffered water damage and the bases of the columns crumbled. The difference here being that the section of the building only dropped a few inches and didn't have a catastrophic failure.
Obviously a controlled demolition. It just doesn't happen otherwise! :rolleyes:
 
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OK, a bit to unpack here, so this is going to be long This would be alot easier with a CAD drawing I could put together, but I'll try to describe it in words. I am a mechanical engineer, not a structural, but I am in the industry of building design, so I review structural drawings all the time (mostly just to make sure that it doesn't interfere with my stuff). So I can't detail out the calculations that they use to design these buildings, but I can tell you how they are generally built.

The "pool deck" is just the designation of the floor level. In this case, a layer of 4" or 6" concrete was set on top of the ground and only the area where the pool itself is located was there any kind of excavation. It is not hollow underneath the rest of the ground there. OK, let's imagine a plus sign (+). It is four lines coming out from a center point. The left side line is the pool deck, and there is ground (soil) underneath it, so everything in the bottom left quadrant is filled with soil. The down line is the wall to the basement / garage. The right line is the ceiling to the garage. The up line is the outer wall to the first floor. You have air in the other three quadrants.

The pool room is located in the bottom right quadrant. I actually design pool rooms, so this is in my wheelhouse. There are two pipes that pass from the pool room, through that bottom line wall, under the ground, out to the recessed pool. Let's say that one of those pipes sprung a leak just outside of the wall on the left side of the bottom line. That water will both A) Pool underground, slowly eroding the soil away, and B) probably leak back into the pool room. We have reports from the pool maintenance guys that there was standing water in the room, and this had been going on for at least two years (as they said in the article that they had to replace the sump pump every two years from overuse). So not only is the support underneath the left line being removed, but water is permeating the bottom line concrete wall, making it weaker. And because the pool heating unit doesn't necessarily run 24/7, the area could also dry up at intervals, leaving an air pocket in the bottom left quadrant.

So what ends up happening is that the ground in that bottom left quadrant erodes away. That soil was providing a lateral force to the wall and also holding up the 4"/6" pool deck concrete slab. A critical point is reached where the 4"/6" pad can no longer hold up cantilevered over air, and it cracks and falls. This would be considered a pool deck collapse, even if it was only the last 5' of the deck where it was next to the building. So now the left side of the plus is gone. That pad was also providing lateral support to the whole plus sign. The down line wall has been soaking in water and chlorides for years and is weaker and crumbling (again, we have witness reports of how the walls of the pool room had significant cracks and chunks missing.




This is actually your best set of questions. The answer is it depends upon the structural engineer who designed it, but it is usually in the realm of one column of safety (as in, you would need to take out a minimum two columns to get a domino-inducing collapse). Columns are usually located 20 to 30 feet apart, so it is not particularly feasible that a truck will take out two columns (because, quite frankly, these columns are 2' x 2' reinforced concrete, the force it takes to take out one column is usually enough to cause enough damage to the vehicle that it does not have the momentum / ability to take out another one 25' away). But let's make something clear, that safety factor of single column failing is not a long term thing. It should be that if someone takes out a column, you have hours, a day tops, to get everybody out of that building and get a temporary support in place to keep the building from falling.

If I had to take a guess, the situation I described above happened. I suspect that the basement wall in the pool room started to crumble a day or two before the collapse. Sadly, those pool rooms are not visited daily. Sometimes not even weekly. When the pool deck collapsed, the lack of lateral support from the pool deck pad and the basement wall / column base. If that water pocket was 25' long and was weakening two columns, then I suspect one failed first and the other one failed within minutes thereafter. Then the domino effect kicked in.


You are trying to prove a negative (ie. no bomb sniffing dogs were used, therefore it must be a bomb that did it). I'll say it again, shape charges / bombs that are capable of taking out building columns are not m80 firecrackers. They are MASSIVE explosions. Something that people would be hearing for miles away. I invite you to watch this video:



These guys were using various explosives to put a hole in a 6" concrete wall. Nobody has reported anything close to the kind of loud noise that would be associated with an explosive large enough to take out a column. You can hear the sound in the video and they are over 100 feet away. And again, that's just what it takes to take out a 6" wall. And if an explosion was used, again, there will be residue on the concrete column debris that can be analyzed.

You are asking why this doesn't happen more often? It's because cities inspect buildings from time to time and usually find these problems with enough time to fix them. If I had to point to one particular reason why this building collapsed....sadly, I'd say it was Coronavirus. A building inspector found the cracks / crumbling issue back in 2018. The tenants probably spent valuable time trying to figure out how they could get out of paying for the repairs, and by the time things should have started moving, BAM, Covid 19 hits and everything gets put on the back burner for a year.

Is it possible that there was foul play? I guess, But I think you should be taking a lesson from Achem's razor here. These are facts:

1) The building inspector found cracks in structural members and recommended fixes. They were not fixed and the situation got worse over a period of THREEE YEARS.
2) The pool room pictures showed that the room was flooded and had this issue for at least two years.
3) The pool room pictures showed crumbling on the ceiling near the outer wall (the middle of the "plus").
4) Repairs for the building did recently start, but they started on the roof. It is very possible that extra load (heavy equipment) had been recently used on the roof, potentially adding additional overall weight on the already failing columns / walls.
5) Tenants complained about creaking noises the day before the collapse.
6) Nobody has reported a loud explosion, the type it would take to take out building columns.

It seems like you are complicating the situation for no reason.

Collapse.jpg



let's be clear here about some things.

A), i am not saying it was foul play.

i'm just saying they way too prematurely dismissed that possibility, and basically did so before any investigation of any kind could be done on anything..

it was basically as if that declaration was done for political/economic reasons, rather than anything objective.

seems like they pretty much did so almost before news crews got to the scene..

B), you are merely stating that it hypothetically could have been from pool water, just as i have been saying it hypothetically could have been foul play, and neither of us has proven anything, and only stated hypotheticals.

that said, unlike in your hypothesis, i believe the ground under the deck had been excavated all the way to the pool itself, and the basement floor level under the deck was the same level as the parking areas. (see above pic)..

i've also read accounts that the parking garage extended to the pool itself, with pics of said wall, though no idea the accuracy of that.

as for the pool room, while i know nothing about pool rooms, i would suppose it to be adjacent to the pool itself, and likely sharing a wall with the pool.

point being, i think a good chance the pool room itself would be removed from being directly under the building, and question how close the closest wall of the pool room comes to infringing on the support of the building itself..

that said, a decent percent of the zillion 100 plus yr old homes in the country have basements that get some water in them with every hard rain.

and 100% of them get some level of soaked ground water surrounding basement outside walls that comprise the foundation with every hard rain, and for a portion of every spring.
------------------------------------


as to "tenants hearing creaking sounds the day before", i think that is obviously as relevant and disconcerting as anything you posted, and i hadn't heard that before.

that said, i wonder if this was a first time thing, or if that was somewhat common in this complex, or for that matter, many to most to all complexes.

or was this creaking, or level of, different from any norm in this building?

every house i've ever lived in often had creaking sounds from expansion/contraction with a large temp change, and though i can't say i noticed them as much in apts i lived in, perhaps i just noticed them less there.

never the less, if these sounds were out of the ordinary, that is significant.

as for the sound of a bomb.

A), a bomb centered in parking garage would be significantly muffled outside the garage just due to it's location.

would it still be audible, no doubt, but not nearly what a bomb on the street would be.

B) while zero expertise here, i'll hypothesize unlike in a controlled demo where many explosives are used to disrupt the structural integrity in many places, leading to a slightly delayed collapse of the structure, if a truck bomb or bombs totally took out multiple support columns, as in Ok City, would the ensuing collapse perhaps not come more immediately than in a controlled demo?? (thus at least complicating differentiating the sound of the bomb and the collapse itself).

no one in the collapsed structure is here to give us their accounts.

as for the residents in the non collapsed part of the structure, i can't comment on how much they could differentiate the sound of the bomb from the collapse itself, if almost immediately ensuing, and again, taking in consideration the parking garage location and that many would be asleep at the time.
---------------------------------------


as for the bomb dogs thing, i find that far more than just very interesting.

very hard to believe they didn't have bomb dogs there by the next morning, more likely that night, and if so, why no reports as to such, or how that went, either way???????????????

if bomb dogs were not there that night or by the next day at least, how questionable as to really wanting answers is that??

if no bomb dogs there by now, well over a month removed, how telling would that be as to looking for a cause??

and if there were bomb dogs there by now, would we not have heard of this either way that went??

we absolutely would have.

kinda like in commercial plane crashes, no doubt they would love a way to find human error as the cause for money reasons.

if it's some concrete/rebar issue, the economic repercussions would be huge on every multifloor structure in the country, even if just from an inspection and maintenance perspective..

if foul play, the repercussions on every structure with a bottom level parking garage would be huge.

even if it's a maintenance and upkeep issue found, the economic repercussions would be huge.

that said, unless they find evidence of a bomb or foul play, i question if anything other than a "possible" cause will be found.

i think Wall St, the real estate, and the entire high rise MDU universe, would all love this thing to all just go away quietly into the night.

and understandably so.

if we allow that, how irresponsible are we?

and even if foul play is only a 5 or 10 or 15% chance, (let alone higher, which i'd think is possible if not probable), to not vigorously pursue and investigate that even possibility, regardless of how remote or high, which we know not, would be just walking away from the possible mass murder of approx 150 people for economic expedience.

as for the amount of push back from even the suggestion of the possibility of foul play, hard not to find that interesting in of itself.



funny-celebrity-pictures-nothing-to-see-here-move-along.jpg
 
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Collapse.jpg



let's be clear here about some things.

A), i am not saying it was foul play.

i'm just saying they way too prematurely dismissed that possibility, and basically did so before any investigation of any kind could be done on anything..

it was basically as if that declaration was done for political/economic reasons, rather than anything objective.

seems like they pretty much did so almost before news crews got to the scene..

B), you are merely stating that it hypothetically could have been from pool water, just as i have been saying it hypothetically could have been foul play, and neither of us has proven anything, and only stated hypotheticals.

that said, unlike in your hypothesis, i believe the ground under the deck had been excavated all the way to the pool itself, and the basement floor level under the deck was the same level as the parking areas. (see above pic)..

i've also read accounts that the parking garage extended to the pool itself, with pics of said wall, though no idea the accuracy of that.

as for the pool room, while i know nothing about pool rooms, i would suppose it to be adjacent to the pool itself, and likely sharing a wall with the pool.

point being, i think a good chance the pool room itself would be removed from being directly under the building, and question how close the closest wall of the pool room comes to infringing on the support of the building itself..

that said, a decent percent of the zillion 100 plus yr old homes in the country have basements that get some water in them with every hard rain.

and 100% of them get some level of soaked ground water surrounding basement outside walls that comprise the foundation with every hard rain, and for a portion of every spring.
------------------------------------


as to "tenants hearing creaking sounds the day before", i think that is obviously as relevant and disconcerting as anything you posted, and i hadn't heard that before.

that said, i wonder if this was a first time thing, or if that was somewhat common in this complex, or for that matter, many to most to all complexes.

or was this creaking, or level of, different from any norm in this building?

every house i've ever lived in often had creaking sounds from expansion/contraction with a large temp change, and though i can't say i noticed them as much in apts i lived in, perhaps i just noticed them less there.

never the less, if these sounds were out of the ordinary, that is significant.

as for the sound of a bomb.

A), a bomb centered in parking garage would be significantly muffled outside the garage just due to it's location.

would it still be audible, no doubt, but not nearly what a bomb on the street would be.

B) while zero expertise here, i'll hypothesize unlike in a controlled demo where many explosives are used to disrupt the structural integrity in many places, leading to a slightly delayed collapse of the structure, if a truck bomb or bombs totally took out multiple support columns, as in Ok City, would the ensuing collapse perhaps not come more immediately than in a controlled demo??

no one in the collapsed structure is here to give us their accounts.

as for the residents in the non collapsed part of the structure, i can't comment on how much they could differentiate the sound of the bomb from the collapse itself, if almost immediately ensuing, and again, taking in consideration the parking garage location.



as for the bomb dogs thing, i find that far more than just very interesting.

very hard to believe they didn't have bomb dogs there by the next morning, more likely that night, and if so, why no reports as to such, or how that went, either way???????????????

if bomb dogs were not there that night or by the next day at least, how questionable as to really wanting answers is that??

if no bomb dogs there by now, well over a month removed, how telling would that be as to looking for a cause??

and if there were bomb dogs there by now, would we not have heard of this either way that went??

we absolutely would have.

kinda like in commercial plane crashes, no doubt they would love a way to find human error as the cause for money reasons.

if it's some concrete/rebar issue, the economic repercussions would be huge on every multifloor structure in the country, even if just from an inspection and maintenance perspective..

if foul play, the repercussions on every structure with a bottom level parking garage would be huge.

even if it's a maintenance issue found, the economic repercussions would be huge.

i think Wall St, the real estate, and the entire high rise MDU universe, would all love this thing to all just go away quietly into the night.

and understandably so.

if we allow that, how irresponsible are we?

and even if foul play is only a 10 or 15% chance, (let alone higher, which i'd think is possible if not probable), to not vigorously pursue and investigate that even possibility, regardless of how remote or high, which we know not, would be just walking away from the possible mass murder of approx 150 people for economic expedience.

as for the amount of push back from even the suggestion of the possibility of foul play, hard not to find that interesting in of itself.



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Holy crap! How do you expect people to read posts like that? Seriously, why do you post in this nonsensical style? Are you high all the time? Do you have a mental disorder (sorry about that if you do)? Why?
 
Could it be the start of an alien invasion? Maybe they shot invisible lasers at the building.

I think they closed that door prematurely without a proper investigation :)
 
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let's be clear here about some things.

A), i am not saying it was foul play.

i'm just saying they way too prematurely dismissed that possibility, and basically did so before any investigation of any kind could be done on anything..

it was basically as if that declaration was done for political/economic reasons, rather than anything objective.

seems like they pretty much did so almost before news crews got to the scene..

B), you are merely stating that it hypothetically could have been from pool water, just as i have been saying it hypothetically could have been foul play, and neither of us has proven anything, and only stated hypotheticals.

that said, unlike in your hypothesis, i believe the ground under the deck had been excavated all the way to the pool itself, and the basement floor level under the deck was the same level as the parking areas. (see above pic)..

i've also read accounts that the parking garage extended to the pool itself, with pics of said wall, though no idea the accuracy of that.

as for the pool room, while i know nothing about pool rooms, i would suppose it to be adjacent to the pool itself, and likely sharing a wall with the pool.

point being, i think a good chance the pool room itself would be removed from being directly under the building, and question how close the closest wall of the pool room comes to infringing on the support of the building itself..

that said, a decent percent of the zillion 100 plus yr old homes in the country have basements that get some water in them with every hard rain.

and 100% of them get some level of soaked ground water surrounding basement outside walls that comprise the foundation with every hard rain, and for a portion of every spring.
------------------------------------


as to "tenants hearing creaking sounds the day before", i think that is obviously as relevant and disconcerting as anything you posted, and i hadn't heard that before.

that said, i wonder if this was a first time thing, or if that was somewhat common in this complex, or for that matter, many to most to all complexes.

or was this creaking, or level of, different from any norm in this building?

every house i've ever lived in often had creaking sounds from expansion/contraction with a large temp change, and though i can't say i noticed them as much in apts i lived in, perhaps i just noticed them less there.

never the less, if these sounds were out of the ordinary, that is significant.

as for the sound of a bomb.

A), a bomb centered in parking garage would be significantly muffled outside the garage just due to it's location.

would it still be audible, no doubt, but not nearly what a bomb on the street would be.

B) while zero expertise here, i'll hypothesize unlike in a controlled demo where many explosives are used to disrupt the structural integrity in many places, leading to a slightly delayed collapse of the structure, if a truck bomb or bombs totally took out multiple support columns, as in Ok City, would the ensuing collapse perhaps not come more immediately than in a controlled demo?? (thus at least complicating differentiating the sound of the bomb and the collapse itself).

no one in the collapsed structure is here to give us their accounts.

as for the residents in the non collapsed part of the structure, i can't comment on how much they could differentiate the sound of the bomb from the collapse itself, if almost immediately ensuing, and again, taking in consideration the parking garage location and that many would be asleep at the time.
---------------------------------------


as for the bomb dogs thing, i find that far more than just very interesting.

very hard to believe they didn't have bomb dogs there by the next morning, more likely that night, and if so, why no reports as to such, or how that went, either way???????????????

if bomb dogs were not there that night or by the next day at least, how questionable as to really wanting answers is that??

if no bomb dogs there by now, well over a month removed, how telling would that be as to looking for a cause??

and if there were bomb dogs there by now, would we not have heard of this either way that went??

we absolutely would have.

kinda like in commercial plane crashes, no doubt they would love a way to find human error as the cause for money reasons.

if it's some concrete/rebar issue, the economic repercussions would be huge on every multifloor structure in the country, even if just from an inspection and maintenance perspective..

if foul play, the repercussions on every structure with a bottom level parking garage would be huge.

even if it's a maintenance and upkeep issue found, the economic repercussions would be huge.

that said, unless they find evidence of a bomb or foul play, i question if anything other than a "possible" cause will be found.

i think Wall St, the real estate, and the entire high rise MDU universe, would all love this thing to all just go away quietly into the night.

and understandably so.

if we allow that, how irresponsible are we?

and even if foul play is only a 5 or 10 or 15% chance, (let alone higher, which i'd think is possible if not probable), to not vigorously pursue and investigate that even possibility, regardless of how remote or high, which we know not, would be just walking away from the possible mass murder of approx 150 people for economic expedience.

as for the amount of push back from even the suggestion of the possibility of foul play, hard not to find that interesting in of itself.



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Did Cosmic help you with this post?
 
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Why is one hypothesis rapidly dismissed? Sometimes it is not so hard to understand.

If the weather forecast is for sunshine today ,and yet I see the rain pounding down with my own eyes, I will dismiss the sunny day determination.

Sounds reasonable, right? But some would say it's unicorns flying in the sunshine and spitting at us, with farts for thunder.

Did Engineering school, at any point, emphasize critical thinking skills?
 
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you are merely stating that it hypothetically could have been from pool water, just as i have been saying it hypothetically could have been foul play, and neither of us has proven anything, and only stated hypotheticals.
Squeaky put together a collapse scenario based upon known facts. Your collapse scenario is the product of an overheated imagination.
 
Squeaky put together a collapse scenario based upon known facts. Your collapse scenario is the product of an overheated imagination.
what's more there will be a shit ton of discovery in the pending litigation to determine the cause. impossible to conceal anything nefarious w/ the amount of engineers/experts that'll be retained to determine the cause and assign fault
 
what's more there will be a shit ton of discovery in the pending litigation to determine the cause. impossible to cover up anything nefarious w/ the amount of engineers/experts that'll be retained to determine the cause and assign fault
My guess is there will be a number of causes coming together in a perfect storm. This would include bad design, poorly speced concrete and rebar, materials that didn’t meet specs, bad inspections, bad workmanship, and bad maintenance as squeaky pointed out. Because of SOL’s only the maintenance issues will have legs.
 
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Squeaky put together a collapse scenario based upon known facts. Your collapse scenario is the product of an overheated imagination.

i'll disagree with that assertion.

and i addressed what i thought questionable or untrue regarding his hypo in my response, including one key to his theory..

i do appreciate his trying to objectively debate this though, since no one else is.

that said, i think he is only putting out one possibility, and not trying to assert anything definitive at all.

and regardless, no doubt a zillion other condos in the US have similar water issues past due for correction.

that said, his is one possibility, as is mine.

the only difference between me and the white corpuscles here, is i don't try and cancel all other possibilities.
 
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what's more there will be a shit ton of discovery in the pending litigation to determine the cause. impossible to conceal anything nefarious w/ the amount of engineers/experts that'll be retained to determine the cause and assign fault

unless it's found to be foul play, which they can't find if they don't check, which they haven't, my guess is they'll never determine a definitive cause, and the second they try to assign one, outside foul play, they'll just get counter sued by whomever they try to lay the blame on.

that said, i find it hard to believe no bomb dogs have been there yet, and if they have been, why no reporting on the matter.
 
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My guess is there will be a number of causes coming together in a perfect storm. This would include bad design, poorly speced concrete and rebar, materials that didn’t meet specs, bad inspections, bad workmanship, and bad maintenance as squeaky pointed out. Because of SOL’s only the maintenance issues will have legs.
No Coh that part will be a litigated mess. Fla allows for leeway in tolling. You have a "discovery rule" that tolls for latent construction defects that aren't easily discernible as well as the delayed discovery doctrine in pi for fraudulent concealment. Lots of grounds to toll.
 
unless it's found to be foul play, which they can't find if they don't check, which they haven't, my guess is they'll never determine a definitive cause, and the second they try to assign one, outside foul play, they'll just get counter sued by whomever they try to lay the blame on.

that said, i find it hard to believe no bomb dogs have been there yet, and if they have been, why no reporting on the matter.
no. none of that.
 
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foul play was checked into

the idea that the navy sea detonations were involved was checked into

a link:


another:

After two weeks on the scene, Kilsheimer says he's considering "all kinds of possibilities" to explain the collapse. A number of factors, from design flaws to material deterioration, could have weakened the tower before a "trigger" event sent it falling, he said.

His team has investigated trigger theories that he thinks are highly unlikely, such as recent explosive tests carried out at sea by the Navy a few hundred miles from the tower. A car crashing into a pillar in the basement garage of the building is a more plausible trigger, he said, though no evidence of one in the weeks preceding the collapse has emerged as of yet.

"There may be something that we'll learn as we're looking at the debris that will help us understand what a possible trigger might have been," he said.

Asked by a reporter what he would be looking for, he said, "something that doesn't feel good in my gut."
"We've been around the block a lot of times so I know what things kind of ought to look like, and I know what happens when they look a little strange, and then you have to evaluate the 'little strange.'"
 
no. none of that.

none of what?

counter suit from who they try and lay blame on, if still in business, or bomb dogs?

INAL, but absent foul play, whomever they try and pin blame on, (and good luck with that), if still viable, i can't imagine them not fighting back and counter suing.
 
foul play was checked into

the idea that the navy sea detonations were involved was checked into

a link:


After two weeks on the scene, Kilsheimer says he's considering "all kinds of possibilities" to explain the collapse. A number of factors, from design flaws to material deterioration, could have weakened the tower before a "trigger" event sent it falling, he said.

His team has investigated trigger theories that he thinks are highly unlikely, such as recent explosive tests carried out at sea by the Navy a few hundred miles from the tower. A car crashing into a pillar in the basement garage of the building is a more plausible trigger, he said, though no evidence of one in the weeks preceding the collapse has emerged as of yet.

"There may be something that we'll learn as we're looking at the debris that will help us understand what a possible trigger might have been," he said.

Asked by a reporter what he would be looking for, he said, "something that doesn't feel good in my gut."
"We've been around the block a lot of times so I know what things kind of ought to look like, and I know what happens when they look a little strange, and then you have to evaluate the 'little strange.'"


let me know when the bomb dogs have been there.

doesn't seem like a not obvious move, does it.


funny-celebrity-pictures-nothing-to-see-here-move-along.jpg
 
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none of what?

counter suit from who they try and lay blame on, if still in business, or bomb dogs?

INAL, but absent foul play, whomever they try and pin blame on, (and good luck with that), if still viable, i can't imagine them not fighting back and counter suing.
Countersue for what? A negligence suit. No.
 
Before the rubble even settled, there were terrorism experts on site to look into the possibility of foul play. They looked for such evidence, found none of it, and so they focused on the more probable causes.

We have survivors who ran from their condo units after seeing the walls start to split open.

IGW...Think, man....
 
No Coh that part will be a litigated mess. Fla allows for leeway in tolling. You have a "discovery rule" that tolls for latent construction defects that aren't easily discernible as well as the delayed discovery doctrine in pi for fraudulent concealment. Lots of grounds to toll.
The construction industry got statute of repose legislation in Colorado. I think 10 years is the limit regardless of tolling claims.
 
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