FISA Court publicly unloads on the FBI

[CO. Hoosier]

In the midst of all the impeachment drama, the federal FISA court issued an order the likes of which is rarely seen, and never seen in my experience. The only way to describe this order is as a serious and deliberate rebuke of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. This is to be contrasted with a judicial spontaneous response to investigative misconduct that occurs from time to time in the heat of a courtroom.

Noteworthy is that the FISA court chose to make this order public. I have no experience with the FISA court, but according to many observers, the court rarely makes its proceedings public. Yesterday's order also refers to additional confidential proceedings about FBI misconduct as shown in the IG report. Also noteworthy is that there is a confidential part of Horowitz's IG report that the FISA court has seen and reviewed but we haven't. In yesterday's order, the court noted that some of this, and some of its other proceedings, is expected to be made public later this month.

The court's description of the process of issuing a FISA warrant, the seriousness of that warrant, and the safeguards built into the FISA legislation to protect individual rights, is a clue about the seriousness of the court's rebuke of the FBI. In sum, the court is pissed. The FBI not only withheld important information from it, the FBI deliberately misled the court into issuing the Page warrant--and then renewing it after the Trump inauguration. In particular, the court noted that a warrant could only be targeted to a "foreign power" or to an "agent of a foreign power". The FBI withheld evidence suggesting that Page was neither. The result of the FBI's conduct is that the checks and balances built into our government, and which congress specifically baked into FISA, was thwarted. This is not a small matter. The FBI's abuse of authority permitted the FBI to spy on US persons without cause. If people are serious about rooting out threats to our government and to the rights of the citizens, here is a spotlight on the starting point.

In my view FISA is important and is part of the matrix that keeps us safe. That said, responsible people of all political persuasions question whether government should have the powers FISA codifies. The FBI's abuse of those powers gives the anti-FISA faction more arguments.

And the FBI used to be the gold standard of federal agencies.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

In the midst of all the impeachment drama, the federal FISA court issued an order the likes of which is rarely seen, and never seen in my experience. The only way to describe this order is as a serious and deliberate rebuke of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. This is to be contrasted with a judicial spontaneous response to investigative misconduct that occurs from time to time in the heat of a courtroom.

Noteworthy is that the FISA court chose to make this order public. I have no experience with the FISA court, but according to many observers, the court rarely makes its proceedings public. Yesterday's order also refers to additional confidential proceedings about FBI misconduct as shown in the IG report. Also noteworthy is that there is a confidential part of Horowitz's IG report that the FISA court has seen and reviewed but we haven't. In yesterday's order, the court noted that some of this, and some of its other proceedings, is expected to be made public later this month.

The court's description of the process of issuing a FISA warrant, the seriousness of that warrant, and the safeguards built into the FISA legislation to protect individual rights, is a clue about the seriousness of the court's rebuke of the FBI. In sum, the court is pissed. The FBI not only withheld important information from it, the FBI deliberately misled the court into issuing the Page warrant--and then renewing it after the Trump inauguration. In particular, the court noted that a warrant could only be targeted to a "foreign power" or to an "agent of a foreign power". The FBI withheld evidence suggesting that Page was neither. The result of the FBI's conduct is that the checks and balances built into our government, and which congress specifically baked into FISA, was thwarted. This is not a small matter. The FBI's abuse of authority permitted the FBI to spy on US persons without cause. If people are serious about rooting out threats to our government and to the rights of the citizens, here is a spotlight on the starting point.

In my view FISA is important and is part of the matrix that keeps us safe. That said, responsible people of all political persuasions question whether government should have the powers FISA codifies. The FBI's abuse of those powers gives the anti-FISA faction more arguments.

And the FBI used to be the gold standard of federal agencies.

I have serious concerns over both what the FBI did and what the FISA court does. It’s likely that FBI routinely does this during investigations, regardless of the target, and that it’s ok to many when the target is somebody with a Muslim last name.

FBI is still the gold standard of law enforcement agencies. To think otherwise is the epitome of being a rube. But they’re being tasked with the impossible and the impossible will require them to skirt the rules from time to time if FISA is still a thing.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

But they’re being tasked with the impossible and the impossible will require them to skirt the rules from time to time if FISA is still a thing.

I wouldn't call this FISA abuse "skirting the rules". A common search warrant application only requires a cop to certify to a few threshold facts and the cop's certification can be based upon hearsay if the source is one the cop knows to be reliable. Those rules might be skirted in different ways. Contrast that with a FISA application where the certification must be based upon the personal knowledge of the applicant (not hearsay) and the warrant application must further be approved by the AG, assistant AG, or upon designation, the assistant AG for national security. This "skirting the rules" involves people like Lynch, Yates, and Rosenstein. It likely involved Comey, McCabe and Page (Lisa). The opportunity and consequences for FISA abuse are well known. As I said, protections are baked into the system. But protections are only as good as the people who implement them. Except for Comey, I don't think any of the people involved are incompetent. This abuse was not skirting the rules. It was deliberate. I don't know if knowing it was deliberate because of anti-Trump bias should make us feel better or not.

 

[hoot1]

FISA reform is long overdue. Long before Carter Page and recent outcries of abuse.

This article points out that calls for reform go back to at least 1994. the article in part has this to say,

The reasonable case for reforming the FISC was first made decades ago. Kenneth C. Bass III, a Carter administration lawyer who helped establish the FISC process, argued before Congress in 1994 that proceedings should be more adversarial. Mr. Bass suggested that the court have an option to ask for outside counsel to represent the interests of those targeted when the judges want to hear from another side. Congress never acted on that modest but worthwhile idea.​

 

[bawlmer]

I wouldn't call this FISA abuse "skirting the rules". A common search warrant application only requires a cop to certify to a few threshold facts and the cop's certification can be based upon hearsay if the source is one the cop knows to be reliable. Those rules might be skirted in different ways. Contrast that with a FISA application where the certification must be based upon the personal knowledge of the applicant (not hearsay) and the warrant application must further be approved by the AG, assistant AG, or upon designation, the assistant AG for national security. This "skirting the rules" involves people like Lynch, Yates, and Rosenstein. It likely involved Comey, McCabe and Page (Lisa). The opportunity and consequences for FISA abuse are well known. As I said, protections are baked into the system. But protections are only as good as the people who implement them. Except for Comey, I don't think any of the people involved are incompetent. This abuse was not skirting the rules. It was deliberate. I don't know if knowing it was deliberate because of anti-Trump bias should make us feel better or not.

If Trump was smart he would have seen the potential here for himself and not allowed this to be exposed.

 

[hoot1]

Anyone want to guess which political party a FISA judge is likely to belong, and why?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Anyone want to guess which political party a FISA judge is likely to belong, and why?

What difference does that make? Are you suggesting that the IG report, the public FISC order, the confidential IG report and confidential FISC order are all a product of political fabrications?

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Pretty crazy stuff.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/ig-r...in-the-fbis-fisa-warrants-against-carter-page

Omitted information from another U.S government agency detailing its prior relationship with Page, including that Page had been approved as an operational contact for the other agency from 2008 to 2013, and that Page had provided information to the other agency concerning his prior contacts with certain Russian intelligence officers, one of which overlapped with facts asserted in the FISA application;

Included a source characterization statement asserting that Steele’s prior reporting had been “corroborated and used in criminal proceedings,” which overstated the significance of Steele’s past reporting and was not approved by Steele’s FBI handling agent, as required by the Woods Procedures;

Omitted information relevant to the reliability of Person 1, a key Steele sub-source (who, as previously noted, was attributed with providing the information in Report 95 and some of the information in Reports 80 and 102 relied upon in the application), namely that (1) Steele himself told members of the Crossfire Hurricane team that Person 1 was a “boaster” and an “egoist” and “may engage in some embellishment” and (2) [redacted]

Asserted that the FBI had assessed that Steele did not directly provide to the press information in the September 23 Yahoo News article, based on the premise that Steele had told the FBI that he only shared his election-related research with the FBI and [Fusion GPS Founder Glenn] Simpson; this premise was factually incorrect (Steele had provided direct information to Yahoo News) and also contradicted by documentation in the Woods File-Steele had told the FBI that he also gave his information to the State Department;

Omitted Papadopoulos’s statements to an FBI CHS in September 2016 denying that anyone associated with the Trump campaign was collaborating with Russia or with outside groups like WikiLeaks in the release of emails;

Omitted Page’s statements to an FBI CHS [Confidential Human Source] in August 2016 that Page had “literally never met” or “said one word to” Paul Manafort and that Manafort had not responded to any of Page’s emails; if true, those statements were in tension with claims in Steele’s Report 95 that Page was participating in a “conspiracy” with Russia by acting as an intermediary for Manafort on behalf of the Trump campaign; and

Selectively included Page’s statements to an FBI CHS in October 2016 that the FBI believed supported its theory that Page was an agent of Russia but omitted other statements Page made, including denying having met with Sechin and Divyekin, or even knowing who Divyekin was; if true, those statements contradicted the claims in Steele’s Report 94 that Page had met secretly with Sechin and Divyekin about future cooperation with Russia and shared derogatory information about candidate Clinton.


An additional 10 errors were included in one or more of the renewal applications, which also all contained the original seven errors:

Omitted the fact that Steele’s Primary Sub-source, who the FBI found credible, had made statements in January 2017 raising significant questions about the reliability of allegations included in the FISA applications, including, for example, that he/she had no discussion with Person 1 concerning WikiLeaks and there was “nothing bad” about the communications between the Kremlin and the Trump team, and that he/she did not report to Steele in July 2016 that Page had met with Sechin;

Omitted Page’s prior relationship with another U.S. government agency, despite being reminded by the other agency in June 2017, prior to the filing of the final renewal application, about Page’s past status with that other agency; instead of including this information in the final renewal application, the FBI OGC [Office of the General Counsel] Attorney altered an email from the other agency so that the email stated that Page was “not a source” for the other agency, which the FBI affiant relied upon in signing the final renewal application;

Omitted information provided by persons with direct knowledge of Steele’s work-related performance in a prior position about Steele’s professional judgment, including statements that Steele had held a “moderately senior” position (not “high-ranking” as noted in the applications), had no history of reporting in bad faith but demonstrated “poor judgment,” “pursued people with political risk but no intelligence value,” “didn’t always exercise great judgment,” and it was “not clear what he would have done to validate” his reporting;

Omitted information from Department attorney Bruce Ohr about Steele and his election reporting, including that (1) Steele’s reporting was going to Clinton’s presidential campaign and others, (2) Simpson was paying Steele to discuss his reporting with the media, and (3) Steele was “desperate that Donald Trump not get elected and was passionate about him not being the U.S. President”;

Failed to update the description of Steele after information became known to the Crossfire Hurricane team, not only from Ohr but from others, that provided greater clarity on the political origins and connections of Steele’s reporting, including that Simpson was hired by someone associated with the Democratic Party and/or the DNC;

Failed to correct the assertion in the first FISA application that the FBI did not believe that Steele directly provided information to the reporter who wrote the September 23 Yahoo News article, even though there was no information in the Woods File to support this claim and even after certain FBI officials involved in Crossfire Hurricane learned in 2017, before the third renewal application, of an admission that Steele made in a court filing about his interactions with the news media in the late summer and early fall of 2016;

Omitted the finding from a formal FBI source validation report that Steele was suitable for continued operation but that his past contributions to the FBI’s criminal program had been “minimally corroborated,” and instead continued to assert in the source characterization statement that Steele’s prior reporting had been “corroborated and used in criminal proceedings”;

Omitted Papadopoulos’s statements to an FBI CHS in late October 2016 (after the first application was filed) denying that the Trump campaign was involved in the circumstances of the DNC email hack;

Omitted Joseph Mifsud’s denials to the FBI that he supplied Papadopoulos with the information Papadopoulos shared with the FFG (suggesting that the campaign received an offer or suggestion of assistance from Russia); and

Omitted evidence indicating that Page played no role in the Republican platform change on Russia’s annexation of Ukraine as alleged in Steele Report 95, which was inconsistent with a factual assertion relied upon to support probable cause in all four FISA applications.

 

[hoot1]

What difference does that make? Are you suggesting that the IG report, the public FISC order, the confidential IG report and confidential FISC order are all a product of political fabrications?

No, not suggesting anything.

Just surprised at the answer to my question along with wondering what the answer might be from others at the Cooler.

 

[hoosboot]

What difference does that make? Are you suggesting that the IG report, the public FISC order, the confidential IG report and confidential FISC order are all a product of political fabrications?

Glad to see that you've come around on the validity of the IG report.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

More about all of this.

The Russia Stooge Theory is a hoax.

Nunes was correct all along.

Schiff peddled lies and disinformation all along.

The top story of 2019 is how the media enabled political bullshit instead of testing said bullshit and holding Schiff et. al. accountable.

 

[mashnut]

The top story of 2019 is how the media enabled political bullshit instead of testing said bullshit and holding Trump et. al. accountable.

Agreed

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Agreed

Ha. That’s another Schiff “parody” right?

 

[mashnut]

Ha. That’s another Schiff “parody” right?

Good one.

 

[Hoosier_Hack]

Pretty crazy stuff.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/ig-r...in-the-fbis-fisa-warrants-against-carter-page
https://www.dailywire.com/news/ig-r...in-the-fbis-fisa-warrants-against-carter-page

so are they oversights or.......????

it’s okay everyone knows..... the political elite are fighting for their lives. They gotta stop him or he will bring them all down. Pretty concerning stuff to say the least.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

so are they oversights or.......????

it’s okay everyone knows..... the political elite are fighting for their lives. They gotta stop him or he will bring them all down. Pretty concerning stuff to say the least.

It’s funny how fast Comey went from “complete exoneration” to this-
“He's right, I was wrong," Comey said about how the FBI used the FISA process, adding, "I was overconfident as director in our procedures," and that what happened "was not acceptable."

Wallace was quick to remind Comey that attorney Kevin Clinesmith was referred for criminal investigation for the doctored email. Comey said "that's not been resolved." He did say it was "fair" to say that the FBI provided false information to the FISA court.

Comey said that "in general" he was unaware of "the particulars of the investigation" when it was going on, but said that as the person at the head of the FBI at the time, it still falls on him.

"I was responsible for this."

 

[zeke4ahs]

More about all of this.

The Russia Stooge Theory is a hoax.

Nunes was correct all along.

Schiff peddled lies and disinformation all along.

The top story of 2019 is how the media enabled political bullshit instead of testing said bullshit and holding Schiff et. al. accountable.

Wow. You are all in now, aren’t you? Let me guess....next you’ll tell us that both Obama and Hillary will be in jail soon, right? Are you getting your news from Infowars now? Oh haha never mind, The Federalist. Same difference.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Wow. You are all in now, aren’t you? Let me guess....next you’ll tell us that both Obama and Hillary will be in jail soon, right? Are you getting your news from Infowars now? Oh haha never mind, The Federalist. Same difference.

Did you read the link? Nunes was substantially correct about almost everything he said about FISA and Schiff is a liar. If you think otherwise you are just willfully ignorant. Or maybe your ignorance isn’t willful.

oh and the Federalist is not the same difference as infowars, except maybe in the brain of those who are mindlessly triggered by facts challenging the preferred narrative. But the source isn’t the Federalist anyway.

 

[hoot1]

Would the FISA court have allowed the warrant for surveillance of Carter Page in 2016 if it had known the whole story?

Given the court has allowed 99.7% of warrants before it over the years, the answer seems rather self obvious to me.

Looks to me as if there might be lots of victims associated with FISA warrants in addition to Page over the history of the court.

 

[Cortez88]

I welcome any reforms to the FISA program. I don’t favor any secret surveillance programs of American citizens. The reaction post 9/11 was a severe overreach IMO.

 

[Bill4411]

Remember when Pubs used to get upset when a warrant or evidence was thrown out, since 99% of the time the person being investigated was thought to be guilty? So much for the law and order party.

 

[ButHerEmails]

Remember when Pubs used to get upset when a warrant or evidence was thrown out, since 99% of the time the person being investigated was thought to be guilty? So much for the law and order party.

I’m sure that was different.