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Firearm for personal protection

And that's a factor as well. As I said, way back when, maybe in the original post, if I could snap my fingers and get rid of all handguns and non-hunting weapons in personal hands, I probably would. But, I can't and I trust myself more than the average Joe, who might have a gun.
Maybe get a security system with cameras, put the ADT sign in your lawn, and keep a Louisville slugger by the night stand.

Problem solved.

You buy a gun your chances of dying go up exponentially. Stay off Facebook
 
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Maybe get a security system with cameras, put the ADT sign in your lawn, and keep a Louisville slugger by the night stand.

Problem solved.

You buy a gun your chances of dying go up exponentially. Stay off Facebook
Again, you're solving a problem that I'm not worried about.... as I've said repeatedly, my biggest fear is coming and going from work, and also driving as I still drive a fair amount for work. We have a great alarm and camera system at work, but it does nothing for the guy standing in your parking lot with a gun. Email alarms are great, but they are not really even motion based and don't detect "people", what they really detect is pixel change. So, clouds passing by, a light flickering, rain, leaves or trees will all set them off. That is mitigated on a covered porch, but in a parking lot you'll get so many text/emails that you'll be ignoring it in the first day.
 
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Again, you're solving a problem that I'm not worried about.... as I've said repeatedly, my biggest fear is coming and going from work, and also driving as I still drive a fair amount for work. We have a great alarm and camera system at work, but it does nothing for the guy standing in your parking lot with a gun. Email alarms are great, but they are not really even motion based and don't detect "people", what they really detect is pixel change. So, clouds passing by, a light flickering, rain, leaves or trees will all set them off. That is mitigated on a covered porch, but in a parking lot you'll get so many text/emails that you'll be ignoring it in the first day.
Where do you work and why would anyone care about attacking you in transit? Are you transporting the nightly drop?

Make sure you grab those escalator safety videos when you have time.
 
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Where do you work and why would anyone care about attacking you in transit? Are you transporting the nightly drop?
You'd be surprised by how many people still pay for their Big Macs with cash.
 
Again, you're solving a problem that I'm not worried about.... as I've said repeatedly, my biggest fear is coming and going from work, and also driving as I still drive a fair amount for work. We have a great alarm and camera system at work, but it does nothing for the guy standing in your parking lot with a gun. Email alarms are great, but they are not really even motion based and don't detect "people", what they really detect is pixel change. So, clouds passing by, a light flickering, rain, leaves or trees will all set them off. That is mitigated on a covered porch, but in a parking lot you'll get so many text/emails that you'll be ignoring it in the first day.

If you're really worried about street encounters. here's sort of an interesting perspective I read a few years back on a message board. I saved it for some reason. It was posted by a LEO. Take such advice at your own peril:


Posted: 2/4/2012 7:47:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2012 8:27:15 PM EDT by BurnedOutLEO]

While many say it is better to be lucky than good, no one is lucky every time. In this post I am going to attempt to provide some insight into street encounters. Other may have different viewpoints. I am not here to argue. I will say some of the comments I have seen posted in the threads about this sort of matter make me realize that while some here are clearly street veterans others are not. This is really for those who are not.

Background

First, my info. I worked in the street of one of America's most violent, dangerous cities for 15 years. I usually worked in the worst part of that city. I spent 15 years in patrol. I liked patrol. It was wild. Most of the time I worked in areas covered in ghetto. By that I mean large housing projects combined with run down slum housing. I have worked all shifts. Later I became an investigator including a robbery investigator. I have spent countless hours in interrogation rooms talking to hold up men. I know them. I am still an investigator but have quit playing the Robbery game because my family was starting to forget what I looked like.

The Enemy

Some may object to me calling hold up men "the enemy". You can call them whatever you like. I can assure you however they are as deadly an enemy as you will find anywhere but the battlefield. Even many soldiers probably lack the viciousness and utter disregard for life most hold up men possess.

No one wakes up in the morning one day and decides to become an armed robber. It is a gradual process that requires some experience and desensitizing. Before a man will pick up a gun and threaten to kill people who have done him no harm in order to get their usually meager possessions he has to get comfortable with some things.

He has to get used to seeing others as objects for him to exploit. He has to accept he may be killed while robbing. He has to accept the felony conviction for Robbery will haunt him all his life. He has to accept he may need to kill a completely innocent person to get away with his crime.

This is a process that starts with stealing candy at the corner store as a child. It progresses through bigger property crimes that may also involve violence. But one day G gets tired of selling his stolen property for nothing and decides it would be better to steal cash. Cut out all that tiresome sales stuff.

Keep in mind most petty thieves, auto burglars, residential and commercial burglars, paper thieves, and hustlers will get to that point and decide not to become armed robbers. It is a special group of outliers who decide threatening to kill people for a few dollars is the way to go.

Once a man starts armed robbing he has crossed a line most won't. Don't forget that when you are looking these bastards in the eye. Their decision to kill you is already made. Your life means nothing to him. Only his does. His sole motivation for not killing you is he doesn't want a murder case. He has already accepted he may pick one up though.

We hunt hold up men around the clock once they are identified. We send teams of fire breathing fence jumper/door kickers to find them. We will bring their mother to the office and convince her she is going to jail if we don't have Junior in our office in an hour. We have her call her son crying hysterically for him to turn himself in before she is arrested and held without bond as a material witness and her home seized for harboring him. Most of the time they won't. **** their own momma.

We will hit all Juniors friends and family's houses. We make it so no one will harbor him. He is so hot no one will let him in their house or even talk on the phone with him. We put money on him so he knows he is right to be betrayed and set up. We do this because of one thing.

That thing is they WILL kill someone if they keep robbing. That is why the city is willing to pay all the overtime. They don't want the murders. Think about that when you see Junior coming. The more robberies he does the closer he is to killing someone. Maybe you.

The guys who hit you on the street are gang members. They are Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Crips, Sureonos, many others. They do not see themselves as part of society. The street is all they know. They don't expect to live long or stay out of prison. They take a delight in your fear and suffering. They are warped individuals for the most part. They can be extremely dangerous.

One time we were locking up a hold up man and having a conversation about how they target their victims. I was saying they pick easy ones, another guy was saying they preferred easy ones but would take anybody.

I pointed out a uniform Officer there was an NFL size guy to that hold up man. Frankly the dude was a monster. I asked hold up man if he would rob him. He said "If I needed the money".

You

Chances are good you are a law abiding person except for maybe a little light weed smoking and maybe driving a little drunk every once in a while. Most of your life you have been taught to be nice and don't point guns at people. You are the exact opposite of your enemy who was taught just the opposite. Remember a lot of street life is like prison life. Who's the man is everything. Violence is the currency of the street.

You do not possess total disregard for the lives of others and do not want to kill anyone. You are concerned about the ramifications of shooting someone. Your family, your possessions and finances on the line. Your enemy has none of these concerns.

The laws that keep you from carrying your gun in bars or where ever mean nothing to your enemy. Your reluctance to shoot someone works to is advantage. His greater experience in street violence and the element of surprise is on his side.

Everyone should call their local FBI office and get a copy of Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. When it first came out it was ground breaking because it demonstrated to academics and other elites what street police knew all along. What did it show in interviews with cop killers? Nice guys finish dead. That's right. Most of those offenders commented that the Officer they killed set himself up to be killed because of reluctance to use force early in the encounter.

You can probably find it on line now. A lot of the victim Officers were a lot like a lot of other people, normal people. They were the opposite of their enemy.

Am I advocating becoming the enemy? No. I am saying the person who is robbing you has certain traits, attitudes, and background. That is all.

Dynamics of Encounters

Hold up men target victims on the street in an impulsive, opportunistic manner. They see someone and make a quick judgment call on whether to rob them. The time between when you are targeted and they are on you isn't long. Therefore, situational awareness is everything.

If you see G coming you are in good shape. If you don't you will be the victim who says "He came out of nowhere". No he didn't. There are many tricks to watching out but simply watching your back is the main thing. Watch your back. If you do it enough it becomes second nature and you won't even realize you are doing it.

Watching out is great but unfortunately many self defense courses stop there. You have parked you car in a well lit area, are aware of your surroundings, and looky here, here comes three guys across the parking lot and they start to kind of fan out.

When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.

Not long ago I was walking down the sidewalk in my town to go get my car. I was holding a folding chair in my gun hand. A car slow rolled past me with 4 heads in it. The guys in the back seat turned around as they went by looking at me. They went a little farther and U turned in the street.

Here they come back. As they started to slow down I looked at them with as contemptuous a look as I could muster and switched the chair to my left hand and flicked my shirt tail with my right hand. They just drove on mad dogging me.

In another case I was at a Christmas party and walked a girl to her car about 3 am. As we said our good-byes two guys were walking across the parking lot. One went behind a dumpster. I though he was peeing. He came out from behind the dumpster with a bottle.

As they got closer I stepped clear of that girl and unzipped my jacket at those two guys. When I did the guy threw down the bottle and they walked by cussing at me. If someone challenges you after you indicate you are armed say "I don't have a gun". Then they will know you do.

Here is an opposite story. A girl my brother knows was walking her dog when a guy approached her. She was polite. Mistake. He talked to her about the dog and said she had pretty hair and reached out and touched her hair. She did not slap his hand down or aggressively object. Mistake. He asked her if her dog bit and she said "No". At that time he slapped the shit out of her, drug her into a wooded area, and raped her.

The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.

When to draw

Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.

Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough mother****ers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some mother****er up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.

When to shoot

The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.

In deer hunting the experienced hunter takes the first good shot. May not be the perfect shot but it never is. Novices pass up a doable shot waiting for a better shot and then the deer is gone. Take the first good shot you are offered. Hopefully your alertness and hostile cues will prevent you ever having to fire. But once you see his weapon, shoot.

If a guy is coming at you with a gun in his hand shoot him. Shoot him right then. If you don't shoot first you may not shoot at all. I have known more than one person who was shot and received life changing injuries and also shot their attacker. Their only regret was not shooting sooner. Like Bill Jordan said "Nothing disturbs your enemy's aim like a slug delivered to the belt buckle area".

Guns and weapons

The handgun is the best weapon you can carry easily. I understand it is not always possible to have one due to laws, restrictions, whatever. I am not telling anyone to disregard laws about carrying weapons. Each person has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. I will say there is no substitute for a pistol when you need one.

Also if you can not be trusted with a pistol after a few drinks you can't be trusted with a pistol period. Booze is liquid bad judgment no doubt but it shouldn't make you into a damn moron. If you are a moron sober I don't know what to tell you.

Types of guns and ammo are always debated and probably always will be. I have seen people shot with all common calibers. My conclusion is if you hit someone between the collar bone and the tip of their ribs three times with anything, they are handled. Bigger is better but something is better than nothing. Get your front sight on his shirt and stay on him as long as he is standing with whatever gun you have.

Just have a gun with sure fire ammo. Draw early and fire immediately upon seeing his weapon. That course of action is about all you can do to up your odds of ending things favorably. Guns like the Ruger LC9, SIG 239, Glock 26/27 are examples of guns small enough to carry but with enough power and capacity to be useful. Do not be afraid to use a French Lebelle if that is the only gun you have. A gun is a gun. I like a Glock 19.

Training

We all want the best training. It can be expensive if you are having to pay for it and it can be hard to find the time to do it. There is a whole lot of BS out there. What can you do? First, pistol handling is not rocket surgery. If you will learn the basics and practice on your own you can be fine. Smooth draw, quick pairs, reload. If you know those things well you can be OK.

I know a young man who shot down two hold up men in 2010 at very close range while he and his GF were walking home from the store. He in Wyatt Earp like fashion ignored the fire coming from the gunman and killed him and wounded his accomplice. He nor his GF were injured. He like many was willing to give them the money until he picked up on nonverbal cues that because of his GF they were not quite satisfied with the money. He had a Glock 27.

He had only the most basic of training in gun handling but did do some draws and some dry fire a couple times a week and live fired maybe once a month. That basic skill combined with knowing what to do was enough. He shot at the first possible moment despite having let the guys get the drop on them. When the gunman turned his head because a car drove by that was the opening. A split second is a long time sometimes.

Work on some one hand shooting at close range. That is a skill not as popular as it once was and you want to use two hands when you can. Often you can find yourself doing something with your off hand though so be able to shoot with one hand out to 5 yards or so.

After

If it comes to pass you are forced to shoot someone do not feel bad. When the police come just tell them a guy threatened you with deadly force and you were forced to fire. I know there are bad police out there in some parts of the country who don't support self defense. I can't help you with that.

Do not talk to them until you have your attorney present. Now most young guys don't have an attorney on retainer and you may have no idea who to call. That is OK. You will figure it out but in the mean time don't talk about what happened other than to say you were forced to fire. You don't have to be an asshole just remember wait for your attorney.

Hopefully you will not give a statement for a couple days. Remember if you are put in jail that doesn't mean you are charged. Most places can hold you 48 or 72 hours on a felony before charging you or letting you go. Breath deep and get an attorney.

Expect to never get your gun back. You may get it back one day but maybe not. Do not buy expensive guns for the street. Buy yourself a nice sporting gun if you want a nice gun. Keep your street guns basic. The factory Model 10 Smith and the GI 45 have done a lot of work over the years and aren't fancy.

Worlds

We all live in different worlds. My world is filled with felons and gang members. Violence is common place. No one would be surprised if one of their friends called and said they shot a hold up man at a place of business or parking lot. In the past when I made calls the fact that the guy who is beating his GF is also on parole for 2nd degree murder flavored my world.

You may live in a smaller, less violent place where shootings seldom occur and it would be a rare to shoot a hold up man. I envy you and will be moving to a place like your town as soon as I can.

But be advised no matter where you are a hold man is going to be about the same. Whether he is a home boy or a guy who just exited the interstate into your town and needs some quick money. He is going to have a vicious streak and no regard for your life. Treat him like he treats you.

Giving them the money, doing what they say, all that may work but there is no guarantee. If you have never read Jeff Cooper's book The Principles of Personal Defense I suggest you order a copy immediately. It is a short book but summarizes a lot of important things.

Last year we had a trial here regarding an armed robbery that occurred. Three or four guys took a young couple from a parking garage near a college out by some railroad tracks where they raped, shot, and beat them. Their lives will never be the same.

The lesser thugs all turned on the trigger man at trial. The trigger man's statement in the paper was after all that had happened he felt like he was a victim. Think about that. That is the mindset you are up against.
 
Where do you work and why would anyone care about attacking you in transit? Are you transporting the nightly drop?

Make sure you grab those escalator safety videos when you have time.
It's an industrial area, but there are a lot of crime of opportunity types floating around. It's not a "bad" area, it's just desolate after hours. We have folks try and pry open our mailbox probably on a monthly basis, and a bunch of the "drifter/racer" crowd has learned there's little traffic, some nice straight roads and little police presence. On the Friday or Saturday evening that they choose, there are probably a hundred of those cars and their posses' hanging around in all the businesses parking lots. That's when the guy got shot and killed at the gas station. There's also a couple places that use temps in the far end of the business park and they are constantly cutting through our property to get to the bus line. The guys I've encountered have all been good guys, but it will open your eyes to have someone in a hoodie walk around the edge of your building in the dark at 6am and almost bump in to you. I'm not an alarmist, but there are multiple reasons converging that make me think this might be a good time to get training and get a gun.
 
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If you're really worried about street encounters. here's sort of an interesting perspective I read a few years back on a message board. I saved it for some reason. It was posted by a LEO. Take such advice at your own peril:


Posted: 2/4/2012 7:47:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2012 8:27:15 PM EDT by BurnedOutLEO]

While many say it is better to be lucky than good, no one is lucky every time. In this post I am going to attempt to provide some insight into street encounters. Other may have different viewpoints. I am not here to argue. I will say some of the comments I have seen posted in the threads about this sort of matter make me realize that while some here are clearly street veterans others are not. This is really for those who are not.

Background

First, my info. I worked in the street of one of America's most violent, dangerous cities for 15 years. I usually worked in the worst part of that city. I spent 15 years in patrol. I liked patrol. It was wild. Most of the time I worked in areas covered in ghetto. By that I mean large housing projects combined with run down slum housing. I have worked all shifts. Later I became an investigator including a robbery investigator. I have spent countless hours in interrogation rooms talking to hold up men. I know them. I am still an investigator but have quit playing the Robbery game because my family was starting to forget what I looked like.

The Enemy

Some may object to me calling hold up men "the enemy". You can call them whatever you like. I can assure you however they are as deadly an enemy as you will find anywhere but the battlefield. Even many soldiers probably lack the viciousness and utter disregard for life most hold up men possess.

No one wakes up in the morning one day and decides to become an armed robber. It is a gradual process that requires some experience and desensitizing. Before a man will pick up a gun and threaten to kill people who have done him no harm in order to get their usually meager possessions he has to get comfortable with some things.

He has to get used to seeing others as objects for him to exploit. He has to accept he may be killed while robbing. He has to accept the felony conviction for Robbery will haunt him all his life. He has to accept he may need to kill a completely innocent person to get away with his crime.

This is a process that starts with stealing candy at the corner store as a child. It progresses through bigger property crimes that may also involve violence. But one day G gets tired of selling his stolen property for nothing and decides it would be better to steal cash. Cut out all that tiresome sales stuff.

Keep in mind most petty thieves, auto burglars, residential and commercial burglars, paper thieves, and hustlers will get to that point and decide not to become armed robbers. It is a special group of outliers who decide threatening to kill people for a few dollars is the way to go.

Once a man starts armed robbing he has crossed a line most won't. Don't forget that when you are looking these bastards in the eye. Their decision to kill you is already made. Your life means nothing to him. Only his does. His sole motivation for not killing you is he doesn't want a murder case. He has already accepted he may pick one up though.

We hunt hold up men around the clock once they are identified. We send teams of fire breathing fence jumper/door kickers to find them. We will bring their mother to the office and convince her she is going to jail if we don't have Junior in our office in an hour. We have her call her son crying hysterically for him to turn himself in before she is arrested and held without bond as a material witness and her home seized for harboring him. Most of the time they won't. **** their own momma.

We will hit all Juniors friends and family's houses. We make it so no one will harbor him. He is so hot no one will let him in their house or even talk on the phone with him. We put money on him so he knows he is right to be betrayed and set up. We do this because of one thing.

That thing is they WILL kill someone if they keep robbing. That is why the city is willing to pay all the overtime. They don't want the murders. Think about that when you see Junior coming. The more robberies he does the closer he is to killing someone. Maybe you.

The guys who hit you on the street are gang members. They are Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Crips, Sureonos, many others. They do not see themselves as part of society. The street is all they know. They don't expect to live long or stay out of prison. They take a delight in your fear and suffering. They are warped individuals for the most part. They can be extremely dangerous.

One time we were locking up a hold up man and having a conversation about how they target their victims. I was saying they pick easy ones, another guy was saying they preferred easy ones but would take anybody.

I pointed out a uniform Officer there was an NFL size guy to that hold up man. Frankly the dude was a monster. I asked hold up man if he would rob him. He said "If I needed the money".

You

Chances are good you are a law abiding person except for maybe a little light weed smoking and maybe driving a little drunk every once in a while. Most of your life you have been taught to be nice and don't point guns at people. You are the exact opposite of your enemy who was taught just the opposite. Remember a lot of street life is like prison life. Who's the man is everything. Violence is the currency of the street.

You do not possess total disregard for the lives of others and do not want to kill anyone. You are concerned about the ramifications of shooting someone. Your family, your possessions and finances on the line. Your enemy has none of these concerns.

The laws that keep you from carrying your gun in bars or where ever mean nothing to your enemy. Your reluctance to shoot someone works to is advantage. His greater experience in street violence and the element of surprise is on his side.

Everyone should call their local FBI office and get a copy of Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. When it first came out it was ground breaking because it demonstrated to academics and other elites what street police knew all along. What did it show in interviews with cop killers? Nice guys finish dead. That's right. Most of those offenders commented that the Officer they killed set himself up to be killed because of reluctance to use force early in the encounter.

You can probably find it on line now. A lot of the victim Officers were a lot like a lot of other people, normal people. They were the opposite of their enemy.

Am I advocating becoming the enemy? No. I am saying the person who is robbing you has certain traits, attitudes, and background. That is all.

Dynamics of Encounters

Hold up men target victims on the street in an impulsive, opportunistic manner. They see someone and make a quick judgment call on whether to rob them. The time between when you are targeted and they are on you isn't long. Therefore, situational awareness is everything.

If you see G coming you are in good shape. If you don't you will be the victim who says "He came out of nowhere". No he didn't. There are many tricks to watching out but simply watching your back is the main thing. Watch your back. If you do it enough it becomes second nature and you won't even realize you are doing it.

Watching out is great but unfortunately many self defense courses stop there. You have parked you car in a well lit area, are aware of your surroundings, and looky here, here comes three guys across the parking lot and they start to kind of fan out.

When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.

Not long ago I was walking down the sidewalk in my town to go get my car. I was holding a folding chair in my gun hand. A car slow rolled past me with 4 heads in it. The guys in the back seat turned around as they went by looking at me. They went a little farther and U turned in the street.

Here they come back. As they started to slow down I looked at them with as contemptuous a look as I could muster and switched the chair to my left hand and flicked my shirt tail with my right hand. They just drove on mad dogging me.

In another case I was at a Christmas party and walked a girl to her car about 3 am. As we said our good-byes two guys were walking across the parking lot. One went behind a dumpster. I though he was peeing. He came out from behind the dumpster with a bottle.

As they got closer I stepped clear of that girl and unzipped my jacket at those two guys. When I did the guy threw down the bottle and they walked by cussing at me. If someone challenges you after you indicate you are armed say "I don't have a gun". Then they will know you do.

Here is an opposite story. A girl my brother knows was walking her dog when a guy approached her. She was polite. Mistake. He talked to her about the dog and said she had pretty hair and reached out and touched her hair. She did not slap his hand down or aggressively object. Mistake. He asked her if her dog bit and she said "No". At that time he slapped the shit out of her, drug her into a wooded area, and raped her.

The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.

When to draw

Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.

Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough mother****ers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some mother****er up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.

When to shoot

The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.

In deer hunting the experienced hunter takes the first good shot. May not be the perfect shot but it never is. Novices pass up a doable shot waiting for a better shot and then the deer is gone. Take the first good shot you are offered. Hopefully your alertness and hostile cues will prevent you ever having to fire. But once you see his weapon, shoot.

If a guy is coming at you with a gun in his hand shoot him. Shoot him right then. If you don't shoot first you may not shoot at all. I have known more than one person who was shot and received life changing injuries and also shot their attacker. Their only regret was not shooting sooner. Like Bill Jordan said "Nothing disturbs your enemy's aim like a slug delivered to the belt buckle area".

Guns and weapons

The handgun is the best weapon you can carry easily. I understand it is not always possible to have one due to laws, restrictions, whatever. I am not telling anyone to disregard laws about carrying weapons. Each person has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. I will say there is no substitute for a pistol when you need one.

Also if you can not be trusted with a pistol after a few drinks you can't be trusted with a pistol period. Booze is liquid bad judgment no doubt but it shouldn't make you into a damn moron. If you are a moron sober I don't know what to tell you.

Types of guns and ammo are always debated and probably always will be. I have seen people shot with all common calibers. My conclusion is if you hit someone between the collar bone and the tip of their ribs three times with anything, they are handled. Bigger is better but something is better than nothing. Get your front sight on his shirt and stay on him as long as he is standing with whatever gun you have.

Just have a gun with sure fire ammo. Draw early and fire immediately upon seeing his weapon. That course of action is about all you can do to up your odds of ending things favorably. Guns like the Ruger LC9, SIG 239, Glock 26/27 are examples of guns small enough to carry but with enough power and capacity to be useful. Do not be afraid to use a French Lebelle if that is the only gun you have. A gun is a gun. I like a Glock 19.

Training

We all want the best training. It can be expensive if you are having to pay for it and it can be hard to find the time to do it. There is a whole lot of BS out there. What can you do? First, pistol handling is not rocket surgery. If you will learn the basics and practice on your own you can be fine. Smooth draw, quick pairs, reload. If you know those things well you can be OK.

I know a young man who shot down two hold up men in 2010 at very close range while he and his GF were walking home from the store. He in Wyatt Earp like fashion ignored the fire coming from the gunman and killed him and wounded his accomplice. He nor his GF were injured. He like many was willing to give them the money until he picked up on nonverbal cues that because of his GF they were not quite satisfied with the money. He had a Glock 27.

He had only the most basic of training in gun handling but did do some draws and some dry fire a couple times a week and live fired maybe once a month. That basic skill combined with knowing what to do was enough. He shot at the first possible moment despite having let the guys get the drop on them. When the gunman turned his head because a car drove by that was the opening. A split second is a long time sometimes.

Work on some one hand shooting at close range. That is a skill not as popular as it once was and you want to use two hands when you can. Often you can find yourself doing something with your off hand though so be able to shoot with one hand out to 5 yards or so.

After

If it comes to pass you are forced to shoot someone do not feel bad. When the police come just tell them a guy threatened you with deadly force and you were forced to fire. I know there are bad police out there in some parts of the country who don't support self defense. I can't help you with that.

Do not talk to them until you have your attorney present. Now most young guys don't have an attorney on retainer and you may have no idea who to call. That is OK. You will figure it out but in the mean time don't talk about what happened other than to say you were forced to fire. You don't have to be an asshole just remember wait for your attorney.

Hopefully you will not give a statement for a couple days. Remember if you are put in jail that doesn't mean you are charged. Most places can hold you 48 or 72 hours on a felony before charging you or letting you go. Breath deep and get an attorney.

Expect to never get your gun back. You may get it back one day but maybe not. Do not buy expensive guns for the street. Buy yourself a nice sporting gun if you want a nice gun. Keep your street guns basic. The factory Model 10 Smith and the GI 45 have done a lot of work over the years and aren't fancy.

Worlds

We all live in different worlds. My world is filled with felons and gang members. Violence is common place. No one would be surprised if one of their friends called and said they shot a hold up man at a place of business or parking lot. In the past when I made calls the fact that the guy who is beating his GF is also on parole for 2nd degree murder flavored my world.

You may live in a smaller, less violent place where shootings seldom occur and it would be a rare to shoot a hold up man. I envy you and will be moving to a place like your town as soon as I can.

But be advised no matter where you are a hold man is going to be about the same. Whether he is a home boy or a guy who just exited the interstate into your town and needs some quick money. He is going to have a vicious streak and no regard for your life. Treat him like he treats you.

Giving them the money, doing what they say, all that may work but there is no guarantee. If you have never read Jeff Cooper's book The Principles of Personal Defense I suggest you order a copy immediately. It is a short book but summarizes a lot of important things.

Last year we had a trial here regarding an armed robbery that occurred. Three or four guys took a young couple from a parking garage near a college out by some railroad tracks where they raped, shot, and beat them. Their lives will never be the same.

The lesser thugs all turned on the trigger man at trial. The trigger man's statement in the paper was after all that had happened he felt like he was a victim. Think about that. That is the mindset you are up against.
that's much more succinct and matter-of-fact than I'd like to believe, but pretty much what I've come to accept from watching these self-protection videos. Just giving someone what they ask for, often is not enough to get them to leave you alone. If you're lucky, you only get hit on the noggin' with a gun, but it's really of no consequence to many people if they also shoot you or kick you in the head afterwards. And, they have no qualms about doing it if they think it will impress or intimidate their friends or if they just feel like it. These videos are really good and cover a wide spectrum of situations, from robberies to domestic to road rage to bystander. Just thinking about it I think is helpful. There are tons of them, as he posts them daily, but has been doing so for years. Finding the ones with situations you might find yourself in (road rage, stores, parking lots, bystanders, driveways, car jackings, etc....) are really helpful. I generally skip over the law enforcement ones and alot of the ones from other countries... Brazil and Mexico are often featured, and even they can be helpful.

 
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It's an industrial area, but there are a lot of crime of opportunity types floating around. It's not a "bad" area, it's just desolate after hours. We have folks try and pry open our mailbox probably on a monthly basis, and a bunch of the "drifter/racer" crowd has learned there's little traffic, some nice straight roads and little police presence. On the Friday or Saturday evening that they choose, there are probably a hundred of those cars and their posses' hanging around in all the businesses parking lots. That's when the guy got shot and killed at the gas station. There's also a couple places that use temps in the far end of the business park and they are constantly cutting through our property to get to the bus line. The guys I've encountered have all been good guys, but it will open your eyes to have someone in a hoodie walk around the edge of your building in the dark at 6am and almost bump in to you. I'm not an alarmist, but there are multiple reasons converging that make me think this might be a good time to get training and get a gun.
Do you really want to put yourself in a situation where you are pulling your gun on someone walking to/from work?

It would obviously suck if you got mugged or someone takes your laptop with a minor ass whippin, but do you really want to add your gun into that equation? No offense but you don’t sound like the type.

Criminals for the most part in these situations only want one thing, and that’s for you to hand mostly immaterial shit over without a fight. You pull a gun, you better be ready to win a life or death fight.
 
@kkott FWIW, you need to do what you think is best for you and yours. Some of that is gut feel, some of it is what's actually happening in the area. None of it, however, is what a bunch of guys on a message board say about it.

Best of luck to you and I hope you never have the need for a pistol, whether you're carrying one or not.
 
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@kkott FWIW, you need to do what you think is best for you and yours. Some of that is gut feel, some of it is what's actually happening in the area. None of it, however, is what a bunch of guys on a message board say about it.

Best of luck to you and I hope you never have the need for a pistol, whether you're carrying one or not.
Agreed, but there are actually some ssurprisingly smart and insightful folks on here, and certainly some that have, or might have, more relevant information than myself on both sides. I'm in no hurry and won't buy a gun if I determine it's not right, and this is probably the least of sources, but most sources are biased one way or another, so I assumed here I'd hear both view points.
 
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If you're really worried about street encounters. here's sort of an interesting perspective I read a few years back on a message board. I saved it for some reason. It was posted by a LEO. Take such advice at your own peril:


Posted: 2/4/2012 7:47:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2012 8:27:15 PM EDT by BurnedOutLEO]

While many say it is better to be lucky than good, no one is lucky every time. In this post I am going to attempt to provide some insight into street encounters. Other may have different viewpoints. I am not here to argue. I will say some of the comments I have seen posted in the threads about this sort of matter make me realize that while some here are clearly street veterans others are not. This is really for those who are not.

Background

First, my info. I worked in the street of one of America's most violent, dangerous cities for 15 years. I usually worked in the worst part of that city. I spent 15 years in patrol. I liked patrol. It was wild. Most of the time I worked in areas covered in ghetto. By that I mean large housing projects combined with run down slum housing. I have worked all shifts. Later I became an investigator including a robbery investigator. I have spent countless hours in interrogation rooms talking to hold up men. I know them. I am still an investigator but have quit playing the Robbery game because my family was starting to forget what I looked like.

The Enemy

Some may object to me calling hold up men "the enemy". You can call them whatever you like. I can assure you however they are as deadly an enemy as you will find anywhere but the battlefield. Even many soldiers probably lack the viciousness and utter disregard for life most hold up men possess.

No one wakes up in the morning one day and decides to become an armed robber. It is a gradual process that requires some experience and desensitizing. Before a man will pick up a gun and threaten to kill people who have done him no harm in order to get their usually meager possessions he has to get comfortable with some things.

He has to get used to seeing others as objects for him to exploit. He has to accept he may be killed while robbing. He has to accept the felony conviction for Robbery will haunt him all his life. He has to accept he may need to kill a completely innocent person to get away with his crime.

This is a process that starts with stealing candy at the corner store as a child. It progresses through bigger property crimes that may also involve violence. But one day G gets tired of selling his stolen property for nothing and decides it would be better to steal cash. Cut out all that tiresome sales stuff.

Keep in mind most petty thieves, auto burglars, residential and commercial burglars, paper thieves, and hustlers will get to that point and decide not to become armed robbers. It is a special group of outliers who decide threatening to kill people for a few dollars is the way to go.

Once a man starts armed robbing he has crossed a line most won't. Don't forget that when you are looking these bastards in the eye. Their decision to kill you is already made. Your life means nothing to him. Only his does. His sole motivation for not killing you is he doesn't want a murder case. He has already accepted he may pick one up though.

We hunt hold up men around the clock once they are identified. We send teams of fire breathing fence jumper/door kickers to find them. We will bring their mother to the office and convince her she is going to jail if we don't have Junior in our office in an hour. We have her call her son crying hysterically for him to turn himself in before she is arrested and held without bond as a material witness and her home seized for harboring him. Most of the time they won't. **** their own momma.

We will hit all Juniors friends and family's houses. We make it so no one will harbor him. He is so hot no one will let him in their house or even talk on the phone with him. We put money on him so he knows he is right to be betrayed and set up. We do this because of one thing.

That thing is they WILL kill someone if they keep robbing. That is why the city is willing to pay all the overtime. They don't want the murders. Think about that when you see Junior coming. The more robberies he does the closer he is to killing someone. Maybe you.

The guys who hit you on the street are gang members. They are Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Crips, Sureonos, many others. They do not see themselves as part of society. The street is all they know. They don't expect to live long or stay out of prison. They take a delight in your fear and suffering. They are warped individuals for the most part. They can be extremely dangerous.

One time we were locking up a hold up man and having a conversation about how they target their victims. I was saying they pick easy ones, another guy was saying they preferred easy ones but would take anybody.

I pointed out a uniform Officer there was an NFL size guy to that hold up man. Frankly the dude was a monster. I asked hold up man if he would rob him. He said "If I needed the money".

You

Chances are good you are a law abiding person except for maybe a little light weed smoking and maybe driving a little drunk every once in a while. Most of your life you have been taught to be nice and don't point guns at people. You are the exact opposite of your enemy who was taught just the opposite. Remember a lot of street life is like prison life. Who's the man is everything. Violence is the currency of the street.

You do not possess total disregard for the lives of others and do not want to kill anyone. You are concerned about the ramifications of shooting someone. Your family, your possessions and finances on the line. Your enemy has none of these concerns.

The laws that keep you from carrying your gun in bars or where ever mean nothing to your enemy. Your reluctance to shoot someone works to is advantage. His greater experience in street violence and the element of surprise is on his side.

Everyone should call their local FBI office and get a copy of Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. When it first came out it was ground breaking because it demonstrated to academics and other elites what street police knew all along. What did it show in interviews with cop killers? Nice guys finish dead. That's right. Most of those offenders commented that the Officer they killed set himself up to be killed because of reluctance to use force early in the encounter.

You can probably find it on line now. A lot of the victim Officers were a lot like a lot of other people, normal people. They were the opposite of their enemy.

Am I advocating becoming the enemy? No. I am saying the person who is robbing you has certain traits, attitudes, and background. That is all.

Dynamics of Encounters

Hold up men target victims on the street in an impulsive, opportunistic manner. They see someone and make a quick judgment call on whether to rob them. The time between when you are targeted and they are on you isn't long. Therefore, situational awareness is everything.

If you see G coming you are in good shape. If you don't you will be the victim who says "He came out of nowhere". No he didn't. There are many tricks to watching out but simply watching your back is the main thing. Watch your back. If you do it enough it becomes second nature and you won't even realize you are doing it.

Watching out is great but unfortunately many self defense courses stop there. You have parked you car in a well lit area, are aware of your surroundings, and looky here, here comes three guys across the parking lot and they start to kind of fan out.

When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.

Not long ago I was walking down the sidewalk in my town to go get my car. I was holding a folding chair in my gun hand. A car slow rolled past me with 4 heads in it. The guys in the back seat turned around as they went by looking at me. They went a little farther and U turned in the street.

Here they come back. As they started to slow down I looked at them with as contemptuous a look as I could muster and switched the chair to my left hand and flicked my shirt tail with my right hand. They just drove on mad dogging me.

In another case I was at a Christmas party and walked a girl to her car about 3 am. As we said our good-byes two guys were walking across the parking lot. One went behind a dumpster. I though he was peeing. He came out from behind the dumpster with a bottle.

As they got closer I stepped clear of that girl and unzipped my jacket at those two guys. When I did the guy threw down the bottle and they walked by cussing at me. If someone challenges you after you indicate you are armed say "I don't have a gun". Then they will know you do.

Here is an opposite story. A girl my brother knows was walking her dog when a guy approached her. She was polite. Mistake. He talked to her about the dog and said she had pretty hair and reached out and touched her hair. She did not slap his hand down or aggressively object. Mistake. He asked her if her dog bit and she said "No". At that time he slapped the shit out of her, drug her into a wooded area, and raped her.

The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.

When to draw

Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.

Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough mother****ers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some mother****er up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.

When to shoot

The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.

In deer hunting the experienced hunter takes the first good shot. May not be the perfect shot but it never is. Novices pass up a doable shot waiting for a better shot and then the deer is gone. Take the first good shot you are offered. Hopefully your alertness and hostile cues will prevent you ever having to fire. But once you see his weapon, shoot.

If a guy is coming at you with a gun in his hand shoot him. Shoot him right then. If you don't shoot first you may not shoot at all. I have known more than one person who was shot and received life changing injuries and also shot their attacker. Their only regret was not shooting sooner. Like Bill Jordan said "Nothing disturbs your enemy's aim like a slug delivered to the belt buckle area".

Guns and weapons

The handgun is the best weapon you can carry easily. I understand it is not always possible to have one due to laws, restrictions, whatever. I am not telling anyone to disregard laws about carrying weapons. Each person has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. I will say there is no substitute for a pistol when you need one.

Also if you can not be trusted with a pistol after a few drinks you can't be trusted with a pistol period. Booze is liquid bad judgment no doubt but it shouldn't make you into a damn moron. If you are a moron sober I don't know what to tell you.

Types of guns and ammo are always debated and probably always will be. I have seen people shot with all common calibers. My conclusion is if you hit someone between the collar bone and the tip of their ribs three times with anything, they are handled. Bigger is better but something is better than nothing. Get your front sight on his shirt and stay on him as long as he is standing with whatever gun you have.

Just have a gun with sure fire ammo. Draw early and fire immediately upon seeing his weapon. That course of action is about all you can do to up your odds of ending things favorably. Guns like the Ruger LC9, SIG 239, Glock 26/27 are examples of guns small enough to carry but with enough power and capacity to be useful. Do not be afraid to use a French Lebelle if that is the only gun you have. A gun is a gun. I like a Glock 19.

Training

We all want the best training. It can be expensive if you are having to pay for it and it can be hard to find the time to do it. There is a whole lot of BS out there. What can you do? First, pistol handling is not rocket surgery. If you will learn the basics and practice on your own you can be fine. Smooth draw, quick pairs, reload. If you know those things well you can be OK.

I know a young man who shot down two hold up men in 2010 at very close range while he and his GF were walking home from the store. He in Wyatt Earp like fashion ignored the fire coming from the gunman and killed him and wounded his accomplice. He nor his GF were injured. He like many was willing to give them the money until he picked up on nonverbal cues that because of his GF they were not quite satisfied with the money. He had a Glock 27.

He had only the most basic of training in gun handling but did do some draws and some dry fire a couple times a week and live fired maybe once a month. That basic skill combined with knowing what to do was enough. He shot at the first possible moment despite having let the guys get the drop on them. When the gunman turned his head because a car drove by that was the opening. A split second is a long time sometimes.

Work on some one hand shooting at close range. That is a skill not as popular as it once was and you want to use two hands when you can. Often you can find yourself doing something with your off hand though so be able to shoot with one hand out to 5 yards or so.

After

If it comes to pass you are forced to shoot someone do not feel bad. When the police come just tell them a guy threatened you with deadly force and you were forced to fire. I know there are bad police out there in some parts of the country who don't support self defense. I can't help you with that.

Do not talk to them until you have your attorney present. Now most young guys don't have an attorney on retainer and you may have no idea who to call. That is OK. You will figure it out but in the mean time don't talk about what happened other than to say you were forced to fire. You don't have to be an asshole just remember wait for your attorney.

Hopefully you will not give a statement for a couple days. Remember if you are put in jail that doesn't mean you are charged. Most places can hold you 48 or 72 hours on a felony before charging you or letting you go. Breath deep and get an attorney.

Expect to never get your gun back. You may get it back one day but maybe not. Do not buy expensive guns for the street. Buy yourself a nice sporting gun if you want a nice gun. Keep your street guns basic. The factory Model 10 Smith and the GI 45 have done a lot of work over the years and aren't fancy.

Worlds

We all live in different worlds. My world is filled with felons and gang members. Violence is common place. No one would be surprised if one of their friends called and said they shot a hold up man at a place of business or parking lot. In the past when I made calls the fact that the guy who is beating his GF is also on parole for 2nd degree murder flavored my world.

You may live in a smaller, less violent place where shootings seldom occur and it would be a rare to shoot a hold up man. I envy you and will be moving to a place like your town as soon as I can.

But be advised no matter where you are a hold man is going to be about the same. Whether he is a home boy or a guy who just exited the interstate into your town and needs some quick money. He is going to have a vicious streak and no regard for your life. Treat him like he treats you.

Giving them the money, doing what they say, all that may work but there is no guarantee. If you have never read Jeff Cooper's book The Principles of Personal Defense I suggest you order a copy immediately. It is a short book but summarizes a lot of important things.

Last year we had a trial here regarding an armed robbery that occurred. Three or four guys took a young couple from a parking garage near a college out by some railroad tracks where they raped, shot, and beat them. Their lives will never be the same.

The lesser thugs all turned on the trigger man at trial. The trigger man's statement in the paper was after all that had happened he felt like he was a victim. Think about that. That is the mindset you are up against.
Interesting read. I didn't get through all of it.....but there wasn't a part (that I read) that talked about giving them what they want vs. not and how that impacts your chances of coming out either unscathed or in a shootout. Sure, there's a ruthless dude that sticks you up, you give him everything he wants and he still decides to fork you up or shoot you. But unless you intentionally piss him off or screw around, I'd guess your chances of getting out of that scenario with little more than down a wallet and some jewelry are pretty good. As he said, most of them aren't looking for a murder wrap...especially not over someone that cooperates.
 
Do you really want to put yourself in a situation where you are pulling your gun on someone walking to/from work?

It would obviously suck if you got mugged or someone takes your laptop with a minor ass whippin, but do you really want to add your gun into that equation? No offense but you don’t sound like the type.

Criminals for the most part in these situations only want one thing, and that’s for you to hand mostly immaterial shit over without a fight. You pull a gun, you better be ready to win a life or death fight.

Your last sentence is why I don't ever choose to carry weapons with me for no good reason. Which up to now means, ever.
 
Do you really want to put yourself in a situation where you are pulling your gun on someone walking to/from work?

It would obviously suck if you got mugged or someone takes your laptop with a minor ass whippin, but do you really want to add your gun into that equation? No offense but you don’t sound like the type.

Criminals for the most part in these situations only want one thing, and that’s for you to hand mostly immaterial shit over without a fight. You pull a gun, you better be ready to win a life or death fight.
Read the post above from Hank Reardon. It may be all BS, but I don't think it is and it's pretty much what I've come to believe from watching these videos, maybe still not so jaded but there are a ton of criminals who don't care one iota about your life or killing you. Often, compliance does get you out of it, but often it does not. And you can have a gun and still comply and not use it, but you always have the option to, you can't do the alternative. If a robber has a gun already on you, then you are correct, pulling your gun is probably a bad decision. But I was surprised to see how many times folks still have the opportunity to get their gun out and then have their destiny more in your control. Frankly, just as you are making judgements and assumptions about me, I'm guessing you have no experience or basis for your assertion "give them what they want and they'll go away". I used to believe that too, but I don't think that's the case in many instances. If I had to shoot someone, yes, I think it would scar me and bother me for a long time, but not as much as if I were dead or disabled, nor if someone I was with was.

And the absolute worst result and the one that really bothers me, is if I had a gun and a loved one was hurt because of it. Either with it directly, or because I tried to defend myself and them and they got shot or injured. If it's me, then I brought it on myself, but one of my kids or friends... I'd never get over it.
 
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Once you decide on the the one you want, there's not any difference from gun store to gun store. Go with the big boobed seller.

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Interesting read. I didn't get through all of it.....but there wasn't a part (that I read) that talked about giving them what they want vs. not and how that impacts your chances of coming out either unscathed or in a shootout. Sure, there's a ruthless dude that sticks you up, you give him everything he wants and he still decides to fork you up or shoot you. But unless you intentionally piss him off or screw around, I'd guess your chances of getting out of that scenario with little more than down a wallet and some jewelry are pretty good. As he said, most of them aren't looking for a murder wrap...especially not over someone that cooperates.
either you didn't read very far, or your reading comprehension blows!
 
Interesting read. I didn't get through all of it.....but there wasn't a part (that I read) that talked about giving them what they want vs. not and how that impacts your chances of coming out either unscathed or in a shootout. Sure, there's a ruthless dude that sticks you up, you give him everything he wants and he still decides to fork you up or shoot you. But unless you intentionally piss him off or screw around, I'd guess your chances of getting out of that scenario with little more than down a wallet and some jewelry are pretty good. As he said, most of them aren't looking for a murder wrap...especially not over someone that cooperates.

It wasn't really for you, or even for me. We're not carrying weapons. The intended audience was someone like kkot who is thinking of or planning on carrying a weapon in the event of these types situations.

Really, the gist of that post is that one needs to remember that the person who is capable of pointing a weapon at you and threatening your life for a few bucks is NOT like you at all, and doesn't share the same values or sensibilities. Therefore, attributing those things to them might not be sensible. And at worst, downright dangerous.

I'm not saying he's right. He's (allegedly) a long time street cop and investigator and certainly has his perspective. I'm not street smart enough to know.
 
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It wasn't really for you, or even for me. We're not carrying weapons. The intended audience was someone like kkot who is thinking of or planning on carrying a weapon in the event of these types situations.

Really, the gist of that post is that one needs to remember that the person who is capable of pointing a weapon at you and threatening your life for a few bucks is NOT like you at all, and doesn't share the same values or sensibilities. Therefore, attributing those things to them might not be sensible. And at worst, downright dangerous.

I'm not saying he's right. He's (allegedly) a long time street cop and investigator and certainly has his perspective. I'm not street smart enough to know.
I have found this to be one of the more civil conversations on this board about a controversial topic. I'm genuinely interested in other sides of the thought process, though my personal feelings are that there isn't anything a person could take from me if confronted while leaving work that I would be willing to kill them for. Causing harm to my family is probably the only thing that rises to that level for me.

At any rate, I get that those folks are a different breed. But it also seemed to me that there is a breed willing the threaten to kill you for your wallet/phone/watch, but it's yet a whole other breed that will threaten you for those things.....and then you hand them all over without incident just to comply.....and then they still off you anyway. And my response was saying that I don't feel like he addressed that point....and having read it more thoroughly a second time, I think @kkott was wrong, my comprehension is fine, the guy just doesn't really cover that difference of interaction. But I'm willing to be shown passages that suggest I'm wrong.
 
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I have found this to be one of the more civil conversations on this board about a controversial topic. I'm genuinely interested in other sides of the thought process, though my personal feelings are that there isn't anything a person could take from me if confronted while leaving work that I would be willing to kill them for. Causing harm to my family is probably the only thing that rises to that level for me.

At any rate, I get that those folks are a different breed. But it also seemed to me that there is a breed willing the threaten to kill you for your wallet/phone/watch, but it's yet a whole other breed that will threaten you for those things.....and then you hand them all over without incident just to comply.....and then they still off you anyway. And my response was saying that I don't feel like he addressed that point....and having read it more thoroughly a second time, I think @kkott was wrong, my comprehension is fine, the guy just doesn't really cover that difference of interaction. But I'm willing to be shown passages that suggest I'm wrong.

I fully agree with your first paragraph about nothing short of actual harm to me or a loved one being worth killing someone over. And it's not that I'm really a nice guy who doesn't wish harm on anyone. To be honest if someone stuck a pistol in my face and threatened me with it, I'm not sure I'd personally care what happened to him. But...shooting and/or killing someone would be a life changing event, far more so than a stolen wallet or stolen car. For selfish reasons alone, I'd choose to not shoot someone.

The problem is, if someone sticks a pistol in your face in a dark parking lot, you don't really know their end game. For that reason, I choose not to carry a weapon. That way I don't have to make an unfortunate choice. Not to mention that your odds of coming out on top are slim anyway if you've been caught by surprise.

An aside. There are a lot of gun owners in this country, and they aren't all who you think. Well, some are, obviously. But they aren't all simply rednecks or camo wearing GI Joe types. The classes that I took were comprised of exceedingly normal people. A dentist. A lawyer. A teacher. A father accompanying his college age daughter.

As for me, I've been forthcoming here because you people don't know who I am. In real life you would not know that I owned any firearms, because I don't advertised that. Very few people in even my extended family even know. Only a couple of friends are aware. If you were to ask people who knew me if I had any guns they'd probably say, "Oh hell no." You might be surprised at how many people you know that have a pistol stashed away.
 
I fully agree with your first paragraph about nothing short of actual harm to me or a loved one being worth killing someone over. And it's not that I'm really a nice guy who doesn't wish harm on anyone. To be honest if someone stuck a pistol in my face and threatened me with it, I'm not sure I'd personally care what happened to him. But...shooting and/or killing someone would be a life changing event, far more so than a stolen wallet or stolen car. For selfish reasons alone, I'd choose to not shoot someone.

The problem is, if someone sticks a pistol in your face in a dark parking lot, you don't really know their end game. For that reason, I choose not to carry a weapon. That way I don't have to make an unfortunate choice. Not to mention that your odds of coming out on top are slim anyway if you've been caught by surprise.

An aside. There are a lot of gun owners in this country, and they aren't all who you think. Well, some are, obviously. But they aren't all simply rednecks or camo wearing GI Joe types. The classes that I took were comprised of exceedingly normal people. A dentist. A lawyer. A teacher. A father accompanying his college age daughter.

As for me, I've been forthcoming here because you people don't know who I am. In real life you would not know that I owned any firearms, because I don't advertised that. Very few people in even my extended family even know. Only a couple of friends are aware. If you were to ask people who knew me if I had any guns they'd probably say, "Oh hell no." You might be surprised at how many people you know that have a pistol stashed away.
I'm not some naive flower that's not been exposed to guns. My mom's side of the family have all had guns. Million dollar house on Geist uncle. Something akin to that uncle in Noblesville. My dad was a cop from the time I was about -3 to about 2. My best friend is a dentist and he owns....so I understand they come from all walks of life.
 
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Does anyone know the statistics on how much proper gun training Thugs, gang banger and Zomies receive?
 
The problem is, if someone sticks a pistol in your face in a dark parking lot, you don't really know their end game. For that reason, I choose not to carry a weapon. That way I don't have to make an unfortunate choice. Not to mention that your odds of coming out on top are slim anyway if you've been caught by surprise.
Exactly. Conceal and carry seems like a great idea until you’re either dead because you’re not cut from that cloth or you’re in court after shooting someone over some meaningless possession worth a few hundred dollars max.

All probabilities considered, it’s just not worth it for me.

I feel slightly different about someone who keeps a gun in a safe in their house, but I’ll most likely never do it.
 
I have found this to be one of the more civil conversations on this board about a controversial topic. I'm genuinely interested in other sides of the thought process, though my personal feelings are that there isn't anything a person could take from me if confronted while leaving work that I would be willing to kill them for. Causing harm to my family is probably the only thing that rises to that level for me.

At any rate, I get that those folks are a different breed. But it also seemed to me that there is a breed willing the threaten to kill you for your wallet/phone/watch, but it's yet a whole other breed that will threaten you for those things.....and then you hand them all over without incident just to comply.....and then they still off you anyway. And my response was saying that I don't feel like he addressed that point....and having read it more thoroughly a second time, I think @kkott was wrong, my comprehension is fine, the guy just doesn't really cover that difference of interaction. But I'm willing to be shown passages that suggest I'm wrong.
He does... you heard what you wanted to hear. Reread it. What he's saying is that in his experience, it's a progression and that once a criminal decides to rob and threaten with a gun, he's crossed a threshold that ultimately leads to him accepting he'll kill you to get away with it. Now that's just his opinion and he purports that he's relating that opinion based on 15+ years of law enforcement experience. You may disagree, but it doesn't sound to me like you have any experience to back up your opinion. I choose to believe him and that is pretty consistent with what I'm seeing in the self defense videos. So my position is that if you come on to my property and have decided to threaten me with a gun, if I decide to arm myself and I see the opportunity to use my gun, I'm going to try and shoot you before you have the opportunity to shoot me. Again, if I'm a CCW holder, I can decide it's better to comply or wait for my opportunity, and may decide it's in my best interest not to pull my weapon, but if I don't have one, I'm placing my life in the hands and hope that someone who has made that decision to rob with a gun and kill you if he decides to or feels it's necessary. I think my decision is not to let that person have that authority over my life. So yes, if I decide to get a gun, I'm saying I think I'm willing to shoot someone who is threatening me with a gun if I decide that's what I need to do. Now, if I get a gun, I'll take classes and training and if I determine I can't or won't do that, I'd then get rid of the gun or keep it secured at home for home protection and not CC. ... all of that, or it's MY reading comprehension that sucks!
 
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I fully agree with your first paragraph about nothing short of actual harm to me or a loved one being worth killing someone over. And it's not that I'm really a nice guy who doesn't wish harm on anyone. To be honest if someone stuck a pistol in my face and threatened me with it, I'm not sure I'd personally care what happened to him. But...shooting and/or killing someone would be a life changing event, far more so than a stolen wallet or stolen car. For selfish reasons alone, I'd choose to not shoot someone.

The problem is, if someone sticks a pistol in your face in a dark parking lot, you don't really know their end game. For that reason, I choose not to carry a weapon. That way I don't have to make an unfortunate choice. Not to mention that your odds of coming out on top are slim anyway if you've been caught by surprise.

An aside. There are a lot of gun owners in this country, and they aren't all who you think. Well, some are, obviously. But they aren't all simply rednecks or camo wearing GI Joe types. The classes that I took were comprised of exceedingly normal people. A dentist. A lawyer. A teacher. A father accompanying his college age daughter.

As for me, I've been forthcoming here because you people don't know who I am. In real life you would not know that I owned any firearms, because I don't advertised that. Very few people in even my extended family even know. Only a couple of friends are aware. If you were to ask people who knew me if I had any guns they'd probably say, "Oh hell no." You might be surprised at how many people you know that have a pistol stashed away.
Well, I interpret your view and Kraft's differently. You said nothing short of actual harm to yourself, while I think what Kraft is saying is that's a risk he's willing to take unless that harm extends to a loved one. My position is, and I think it's in agreement with the LEO post you pasted, is that if a guy threatens you with a gun, assume he's willing to use it and arm yourself so you can choose to defend yourself if you feel it's necessary or prudent. Basically I'm saying I want that option and choice and not leave it up to a criminal who is threatening me with a gun. There are a million (billions?) different scenarios and nuances to this, but that's the decision I'm wrestling with: do I want to continue to put my trust in the altruism of a criminal or give myself the option to protect myself if I deem it necessary. I'm leaning towards the latter.
 
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He does... you heard what you wanted to hear. Reread it. What he's saying is that in his experience, it's a progression and that once a criminal decides to rob and threaten with a gun, he's crossed a threshold that ultimately leads to him accepting he'll kill you to get away with it. Now that's just his opinion and he purports that he's relating that opinion based on 15+ years of law enforcement experience. You may disagree, but it doesn't sound to me like you have any experience to back up your opinion. I choose to believe him and that is pretty consistent with what I'm seeing in the self defense videos. So my position is that if you come on to my property and have decided to threaten me with a gun, if I decide to arm myself and I see the opportunity to use my gun, I'm going to try and shoot you before you have the opportunity to shoot me. Again, if I'm a CCW holder, I can decide it's better to comply or wait for my opportunity, and may decide it's in my best interest not to pull my weapon, but if I don't have one, I'm placing my life in the hands and hope that someone who has made that decision to rob with a gun and kill you if he decides to or feels it's necessary. I think my decision is not to let that person have that authority over my life. So yes, if I decide to get a gun, I'm saying I think I'm willing to shoot someone who is threatening me with a gun if I decide that's what I need to do. Now, if I get a gun, I'll take classes and training and if I determine I can't or won't do that, I'd then get rid of the gun or keep it secured at home for home protection and not CC. ... all of that, or it's MY reading comprehension that sucks!
What he's saying is that in his experience, it's a progression and that once a criminal decides to rob and threaten with a gun, he's crossed a threshold that ultimately leads to him accepting he'll kill you to get away with it.
I still think there's a difference....and I don't think he addresses it.

Person willing to kill you if you don't comply in giving them what they want
vs.
Person willing to kill you EVEN IF THEY GET what they want

To me, that second person is an entirely different breed.
 
I still think there's a difference....and I don't think he addresses it.

Person willing to kill you if you don't comply in giving them what they want
vs.
Person willing to kill you EVEN IF THEY GET what they want

To me, that second person is an entirely different breed.

Well, speaking theoretically, if someone was to point a pistol at my head and say "do xyz or I'll blow your brains out," I'll likely do xyx, not because I have faith that my attacker is a trustworthy man of his word, but because I had no choice. Someone willing to point a gun at you and threaten your life doesn't get the benefit of trust when it comes to an implied transaction. Again, you're assuming that they are rational operators, like you.

That doesn't mean we should all strap up to hit the Home Depot after 8 pm. But if someone else like kkot doesn't choose to put his trust in the honor of street robbers, that's his choice. Me, I just don't go to Home Depot after dark.

--EDIT to add the one near personal experience I've had.

I live in what would be called a nice suburban neighborhood where the most that ever happens is that neighborhood kids ring doorbells and run off. Maybe 5 years back the couple across the street was returning home around midnight on a weeknight. They pulled into their garage and a guy who had been hiding nearby followed them into the garage, and then robbed them as they sat in the car. Fortunately for them he then fled. They never got over it and moved soon after.

It occurred to me that if that had happened to me and I'd had a weapon on me, I just MIGHT have considered using it in that situation, as the guy was inside the garage and my fear would be that he might try and force us into the house. I don't know. That would have been a very frightening situation.
 
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I still think there's a difference....and I don't think he addresses it.

Person willing to kill you if you don't comply in giving them what they want
vs.
Person willing to kill you EVEN IF THEY GET what they want

To me, that second person is an entirely different breed.
Well, we can agree to disagree, but I think if you reread the article and check your opinion at the door, the distinguishment he draws is that IF they choose to rob you with a gun, they are on the continuum that at some point they will be willing to use it to shoot someone during the robbery, and I agree with that, whether it's by folly, accident or intent. So, I think I want to arm myself and take that decision out of the criminals hands. Basically I want the option. So, if I see you coming and you come on my property in the dark or I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to draw my gun, not point it at you but let you know I have it and have a discussion with you to determine your intention (yes, I'm aware in many areas drawing a gun as a threat might be illegal). If you have a weapon that's not a gun, I'm going to do the same, point it at you with my finger off the trigger, and tell you to get off my property, and call the police. If you have a gun drawn on me, I'm going to comply unless I see an opportunity to draw, or I decide I need to draw it and risk a gunfight (ie. you threaten to tie me up, kidnap me, shoot or misfire, etc...). This is basically what the self-protection guy teaches. It's surprising how often a criminal will turn away or even set their gun down to get money, car keys, etc... that's where he says "wait your turn". Those are my basic beliefs today, not owning the gun. That's why I'm going to go through training, I may decide I don't even think I could follow these courses of action and never even buy one!
 
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I still think there's a difference....and I don't think he addresses it.

Person willing to kill you if you don't comply in giving them what they want
vs.
Person willing to kill you EVEN IF THEY GET what they want

To me, that second person is an entirely different breed.
Both are people willing to kill you. To me, it's a semantics issue after that's been established.
 
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Well, speaking theoretically, if someone was to point a pistol at my head and say "do xyz or I'll blow your brains out," I'll likely do xyx, not because I have faith that my attacker is a trustworthy man of his word, but because I had no choice. Someone willing to point a gun at you and threaten your life doesn't get the benefit of trust when it comes to an implied transaction. Again, you're assuming that they are rational operators, like you.

That doesn't mean we should all strap up to hit the Home Depot after 8 pm. But if someone else like kkot doesn't choose to put his trust in the honor of street robbers, that's his choice. Me, I just don't go to Home Depot after dark.

--EDIT to add the one near personal experience I've had.

I live in what would be called a nice suburban neighborhood where the most that ever happens is that neighborhood kids ring doorbells and run off. Maybe 5 years back the couple across the street was returning home around midnight on a weeknight. They pulled into their garage and a guy who had been hiding nearby followed them into the garage, and then robbed them as they sat in the car. Fortunately for them he then fled. They never got over it and moved soon after.

It occurred to me that if that had happened to me and I'd had a weapon on me, I just MIGHT have considered using it in that situation, as the guy was inside the garage and my fear would be that he might try and force us into the house. I don't know. That would have been a very frightening situation.
That's why I've liked those videos. There are myriad variables, but the bottom line is what you said, "I want the option to protect myself". He's presented me with a ton of scenarios I'd never considered (like being followed into your garage or property), and to your point, one of his recommendations is "don't be in stupid places at stupid times"(somewhere after hours you don't need to be). He also talks a lot about deescalation, compliance and verbal judo, so he's not a gun crazed guy that says "shoot first, ask questions later". I also agree with Kraft, good sane discussion... which is why I posted it here and not the Cooler.

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Well, we can agree to disagree, but I think if you reread the article and check your opinion at the door, the distinguishment he draws is that IF they choose to rob you with a gun, they are on the continuum that at some point they will be willing to use it to shoot someone during the robbery, and I agree with that, whether it's by folly, accident or intent. So, I think I want to arm myself and take that decision out of the criminals hands. Basically I want the option. So, if I see you coming and you come on my property in the dark or I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to draw my gun, not point it at you but let you know I have it and have a discussion with you to determine your intention (yes, I'm aware in many areas drawing a gun as a threat might be illegal). If you have a weapon that's not a gun, I'm going to do the same, point it at you with my finger off the trigger, and tell you to get off my property, and call the police. If you have a gun drawn on me, I'm going to comply unless I see an opportunity to draw, or I decide I need to draw it and risk a gunfight (ie. you threaten to tie me up, kidnap me, shoot or misfire, etc...). This is basically what the self-protection guy teaches. It's surprising how often a criminal will turn away or even set their gun down to get money, car keys, etc... that's where he says "wait your turn". Those are my basic beliefs today, not owning the gun. That's why I'm going to go through training, I may decide I don't even think I could follow these courses of action and never even buy one!
His sole motivation for not killing you is he doesn't want a murder case.
I'd argue there are a lot of them that don't want a murder case. Otherwise, they'd just shoot you and then take what they want, rather than threatening you with your life in order to get what they want.

Large difference, in my opinion. I also recognize that we're to the hair-splitting level.
 
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I'd argue there are a lot of them that don't want a murder case. Otherwise, they'd just shoot you and then take what they want, rather than threatening you with your life in order to get what they want.

Large difference, in my opinion. I also recognize that we're to the hair-splitting level.
Yes, you would and have been, but he's saying at some point, that "threat" of a murder case doesn't bother them enough not to shoot you. He's basing his opinion on 15 years of experience with folks who have done this. You're basing yours on, well, your opinion and faith in man. You're willing to continue to risk that, and I don't think I am now (and incidentally, if I worked from home or somewhere else, I'd probably still risk it. I want to have a gun and plan to carry it when I come and go from work). You're aware of how many shootings go unsolved, or unsolved for many years? They are.
 
Yes, you would and have been, but he's saying at some point, that "threat" of a murder case doesn't bother them enough not to shoot you. He's basing his opinion on 15 years of experience with folks who have done this. You're basing yours on, well, your opinion and faith in man. You're willing to continue to risk that, and I don't think I am now (and incidentally, if I worked from home or somewhere else, I'd probably still risk it. I want to have a gun and plan to carry it when I come and go from work). You're aware of how many shootings go unsolved, or unsolved for many years? They are.

I listened to some scary stats about the rise in trucker serial killers, shit tons of highway murders go unsolved and it is rising rapidly apparently. Makes sense, kill in one state, dump body in another. You know the US and the remote areas.
 
Curious what others do for personal protection. I grew up in a hunting family and have been around guns, at least hunting ones, all my life. I hate the proliferation of guns, but accept that's how it is and there's no going back, so I've been weighing getting a handgun for personal protection. I would keep it in the bedroom at home, but where I feel like I need it is entering/exiting my office at odd hours. It's in an industrial area, and while not a bad area, it's pretty isolated and occassionally I see folks cruising by that sometimes look a little sketchy.

I'd originally thought I'd just get a revolver because I felt it's the simplest operation and more reliable with fewer moving parts. I watch a guy on youtube that does self-protection videos though and he suggests carrying as many rounds in your weapon as you can, and says in civilian gunfights, you generally won't have the chance to reload. Just curious to get some feedback on weapons, classes and other tips experienced folks my have for self-protection.

Forgot to mention it, but another good move (and the only one that's certain to protect you [somewhat]...,in an "ambush" scenario where they completely have the drop on you) is to invest in some body armor... If you go that route, it's another area where you'll want to do your research before invest real money...

Premier sells a relatively inexpensive undershirt style (with an insert) that basically only protects the heart area but it might be a good "quick fix" while you figure out what you might want to add to it...

I read somewhere that recorded shootings had gone up 68% and that this summer was expected to be an ugly one... Evidently your concerns are warranted...

Stay alert and good luck...
 
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