Expectations for IU basketball

TR32

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This is what Fred Glass said when he fired Crean:

"The expectations for Indiana University basketball are to perennially contend for and win multiple Big Ten championships, regularly go deep in the NCAA tournament, and win our next national championship—and more after that. We will identify and recruit a coach who will meet these expectations."

You see, no mention there of when that is to commence, and no mention that ever beating Purdue is a requirement.

Greg Doyle called the Archie Miller hire a glass shattering third deck home run that will be felt throughout the Big Ten. Seems most IU fans are now thinking that centerfielder standing at the warning track is in a good position to catch the ball.
 

mushroomgod_1

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This is what Fred Glass said when he fired Crean:

"The expectations for Indiana University basketball are to perennially contend for and win multiple Big Ten championships, regularly go deep in the NCAA tournament, and win our next national championship—and more after that. We will identify and recruit a coach who will meet these expectations."

You see, no mention there of when that is to commence, and no mention that ever beating Purdue is a requirement.

Greg Doyle called the Archie Miller hire a glass shattering third deck home run that will be felt throughout the Big Ten. Seems most IU fans are now thinking that centerfielder standing at the warning track is in a good position to catch the ball.


kkott has raised the right question.

Fred met with CAM, we didn't. When he met with CAM, did CAM blow him away? Or had he already decided what he was going to do, and it was just a formality? Did CAM beg for the job, or was he talked into it by Fred/his dad/his brother? I ask, because at the very first PC CAM looked uneasy and ill-prepared for the spotlight. And, to me, he's never seemed totally comfortable here, or even in his own skin as a coach, esp when it came to his handling of players.
 
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TR32

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I think any coach feels uncomfortable when they know the fan base expects more. That's true for youth ball all the way up to the top.

On the other hand, if IU somehow goes out and beats Iowa, all of this coach chatter will die down and IU will look like a mid pack team fighting for 6th.
 

kkott

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I think any coach feels uncomfortable when they know the fan base expects more. That's true for youth ball all the way up to the top.

On the other hand, if IU somehow goes out and beats Iowa, all of this coach chatter will die down and IU will look like a mid pack team fighting for 6th.
I don't think so. I think the PU futility has hit critical mass. We were spoiled by being the top state program for so long, I don't think most fans even contemplated that it would be possible to have a WI-like period of futility with PU. And for those of us old guys, having a futility streak vs WI was unthinkable back in the days when we beat them 30+ straight times. It will take a LOT of winning now for Archie to overcome his futility with Purdue and I don't see us winning to that level, so he better start having the PU game circled on the team calendar for as long as he's here.
 
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kkott

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Losing to Purdue doesn't flip me out.
Losing in general does..
I don't like it, but anymore, I've come to accept it after the last 25 years or so. Self-defense mechanism... I'd make myself crazy if I had those expectations anymore. Even given that, not just losing, but the lack of effort last year on RMK's return was disgusting to me, and I assume most Hoosier fans. After the "expected" losses this year to TX, and FSU, WI IL, it's why I thought the PU game was the biggest of the season. and for Archie's career. Fail.
 
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kkott

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Wasn't Quinn Buckner in Fred's ear encouraging him to hire Archie?
Archie was a popular choice among most basketball minds I believe. It's hard to discern, because "experts" are a somewhat self-serving community so it's rare that they'll be openly critical of almost any hire (the "experts" know they might be wanting an interview later, so they are hesitant to burn bridges), but you could tell the endorsement was genuine from the likes of Bilas, and even RMK. There's a Hawkeye fan in another thread who brought up Lickliter and I think that's a relevant parallel, but not everyone can make the jump from mid-major and not every position is perfect for every person. Like Lickliter, Archie doesn't show much personality and unfortunately when he has, it's often been of the sneering sarcastic type, but I think the sand has almost run out of the hourglass. This team needs to turn this season around and make the tourney, not on the bubble and winning a game or 2 wouldn't hurt. Short of that, I believe the die is cast and it's only a matter of when after that... and sadly with IU, that may still take a year or 3.

PS, Oh yeah, and @ Purdue has become a must-win.
 
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Birnk403

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Wasn't Quinn Buckner in Fred's ear encouraging him to hire Archie?
QB was the designated Trustee who was “sent” to tell Glass that he needed to move Crean out (over FG’s wishes) and, yes, he was involved in the process that led to Miller.
 

fkfootball

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Chris Holtman has an average OSU roster at #15 right now. Dude didn’t even get a call. When Butler has a really good coach, you move Heaven and Earth to get that guy. We’ve missed that boat at least 3 times. Such a stupid Athletic Department for real.
 
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HoosierJimbo89

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I rewatched the 2013 game where IU beat PU by 35 at Mackey. I don't think the talent PU has this year is any different than what they had in 2013. The difference is IU's talent is less now than what it was then, we could score 90-100 points in a game and had an effective offense, we had players that could shoot, and we were, by far, the more mentally tough team that wanted to win the game more. IU overwhelmed PU in 2013. The PU game this year is a macro for all of the things wrong with the program.

Archie was the "next big thing" when he was hired: hasn't panned out. In baseball, there are hundreds of "can't miss" prospects that don't ever pan out. I watched Moneyball not too long ago, and Billy Beane was one of those "can't miss" prospects that never panned out. There comes a time to take the pitcher off the mound, and I think we are at that point. Archie certainly has the rest of the year to prove himself, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
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kkott

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Chris Holtman has an average OSU roster at #15 right now. Dude didn’t even get a call. When Butler has a really good coach, you move Heaven and Earth to get that guy. We’ve missed that boat at least 3 times. Such a stupid Athletic Department for real.

Todd Lickliter says hi!

Do you know for real that he wasn't called? If he wasn't, that was a monumental failure. I've often wondered if a thorough search was conducted, as it never felt that way to me, but that was just my read of the tea leaves. It felt like Fred zeroed in on Archie, maybe emboldened by a few "can't miss" endorsements, and that's how we got here. And, from all appearances, it was a good hire, but a thorough search with a solid bball mind or 2 should always be done at this level. If nothing else just to confirm the candidate. I think at the time, most bball folks would have said Archie was the better candidate, but time and results looks like it's proving otherwise. I am confident at the time, OSU people would have preferred Archie and I think many felt like we scooped them by acting first.
 
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crazed_hoosier2

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I don't like it, but anymore, I've come to accept it after the last 25 years or so. Self-defense mechanism...
You’re hardly alone. IMO, it’s our single biggest problem...compounded by the fact that many people who have accepted it see this acceptance more as a kind of prudent patience, with the belief that we’ll get a payoff for that patience (and would pay a price for impatience

This isn’t to say that we should be unrealistic and putting a coach’s feet to the fire in their first year, or even second. It depends, of course, where they started from. Few people were calling for Crean’s head after winning just 6 games his first year...or 28 in his first 3 years.

But (a) there has to be progress, and (b) we have to keep with those expectations that Glass was talking about. But, alas, talk is cheap.
 

ndhuntington

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tenor.gif
 
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Columbus-Boiler

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This is what Fred Glass said when he fired Crean:

"The expectations for Indiana University basketball are to perennially contend for and win multiple Big Ten championships, regularly go deep in the NCAA tournament, and win our next national championship—and more after that. We will identify and recruit a coach who will meet these expectations."

You see, no mention there of when that is to commence, and no mention that ever beating Purdue is a requirement.

Greg Doyle called the Archie Miller hire a glass shattering third deck home run that will be felt throughout the Big Ten. Seems most IU fans are now thinking that centerfielder standing at the warning track is in a good position to catch the ball.

Doyle has only two settings in his brain: Everything is terrible or everything is about to become historically good. Just a few weeks ago he was writing about Archie and the Hoosiers being special. Last week he's dragging them under the bus. I guess overreaction sells papers.
 

Hoosierific

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I think any coach feels uncomfortable when they know the fan base expects more. That's true for youth ball all the way up to the top.

On the other hand, if IU somehow goes out and beats Iowa, all of this coach chatter will die down and IU will look like a mid pack team fighting for 6th.

I disagree, if by some miracle IU would upset Iowa ( they won't ) it would not change my opinion of Archie or his coaching abilities. Win or lose against Iowa Archie is lost, in over his head, and ill prepared to coach IU.
 

Big Red Crimson Buffalo

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This is what Fred Glass said when he fired Crean:

"The expectations for Indiana University basketball are to perennially contend for and win multiple Big Ten championships, regularly go deep in the NCAA tournament, and win our next national championship—and more after that. We will identify and recruit a coach who will meet these expectations."

You see, no mention there of when that is to commence, and no mention that ever beating Purdue is a requirement.

Greg Doyle called the Archie Miller hire a glass shattering third deck home run that will be felt throughout the Big Ten. Seems most IU fans are now thinking that centerfielder standing at the warning track is in a good position to catch the ball.

Whenever Doyle makes a proclamation, one should bet that most of the time, the guy is not even in the right zip code.

He should be writing for The National Enquirer.
 

TR32

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I disagree, if by some miracle IU would upset Iowa ( they won't ) it would not change my opinion of Archie or his coaching abilities. Win or lose against Iowa Archie is lost, in over his head, and ill prepared to coach IU.

I also don't think IU will beat Iowa, but I wouldn't categorize Miller as "lost" or "over his head". I think the defense has been good enough to win games and he simply hasn't found enough offensive talent to win in his scheme. It is still his failure to own though. But I think if you put just one or two more talented guys out there and IU is a contender. Add Dawson Garcia and this IU team wins at least 2 more games. Add Garcia plus a knockdown 3pts shooter and this team is at the top of the League.

But Miller has not faired well enough on recruiting to stay above the proverbial Big Ten fray.
 
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Big Red Crimson Buffalo

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I also don't think IU will beat Iowa, but I wouldn't categorize Miller as "lost" or "over his head". I think the defense has been good enough to win games and he simply hasn't found enough offensive talent to win in his scheme. It is still his failure to own though. But I think if you put just one or two more talented guys out there and IU is a contender. Add Dawson Garcia and this IU team wins at least 2 more games. Add Garcia plus a knockdown 3pts shooter and this team is at the top of the League.

But Miller has not faired well enough on recruiting to stay above the proverbial Big Ten fray.

I’m concerned more about his organization, leadership and chemistry. His teams seem to be a collection of players that don’t know their roles, go through the motions and play with little effort. That’s his stamp on the program for 4 years and that isn’t a good look.
 

Hank Reardon

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Chris Holtman has an average OSU roster at #15 right now. Dude didn’t even get a call. When Butler has a really good coach, you move Heaven and Earth to get that guy. We’ve missed that boat at least 3 times. Such a stupid Athletic Department for real.

I ask the question because I don't know...how much of a role doe the athletic department play in how successful a coach is? If Miller goes to OSU and Holtman comes to IU, is IU successful today and OSU in the dumper? Or does Miller succeed at OSU while Holtman struggles at IU while IU fans grumble about letting Miller get away?

I don't think a school like IU has the stomach to play big league basketball in 2021.
 

Cavanagh

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I ask the question because I don't know...how much of a role doe the athletic department play in how successful a coach is? If Miller goes to OSU and Holtman comes to IU, is IU successful today and OSU in the dumper? Or does Miller succeed at OSU while Holtman struggles at IU while IU fans grumble about letting Miller get away?

I don't think a school like IU has the stomach to play big league basketball in 2021.

The next coach needs to be handed the keys and have no1 tell him what to do. If you want guy you to win, get a coach that owns the University. Look at the most successful coaches in basketball. Every one of them is the most important person at that University. Who runs Duke, UNC, UK, KU, MSU? basketball coach.

Cant have glass or some AD saying you need to do this and that, not gonna work.
 

kkott

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You’re hardly alone. IMO, it’s our single biggest problem...compounded by the fact that many people who have accepted it see this acceptance more as a kind of prudent patience, with the belief that we’ll get a payoff for that patience (and would pay a price for impatience

This isn’t to say that we should be unrealistic and putting a coach’s feet to the fire in their first year, or even second. It depends, of course, where they started from. Few people were calling for Crean’s head after winning just 6 games his first year...or 28 in his first 3 years.

But (a) there has to be progress, and (b) we have to keep with those expectations that Glass was talking about. But, alas, talk is cheap.

Maybe you mistook me for Scott Dolson? Alas, no. If I could hold Archie's feet to the fire, I would.

Wait, I change my mind, I do not accept it. Is that better? Now what?
 

Courtsensetwo

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Wasn't Quinn Buckner in Fred's ear encouraging him to hire Archie?

Quinn helped Fred move on TC when he met resistance from the BOT and other execs. Quinn then reportedly participated in the search and hiring process, but I don't know that part directly.
 

Courtsensetwo

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I’m concerned more about his organization, leadership and chemistry. His teams seem to be a collection of players that don’t know their roles, go through the motions and play with little effort. That’s his stamp on the program for 4 years and that isn’t a good look.

All of this plus the roster is poorly constructed and he is wiffing on recruits that IU should never miss on.
 

Big Red Crimson Buffalo

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The next coach needs to be handed the keys and have no1 tell him what to do. If you want guy you to win, get a coach that owns the University. Look at the most successful coaches in basketball. Every one of them is the most important person at that University. Who runs Duke, UNC, UK, KU, MSU? basketball coach.

Cant have glass or some AD saying you need to do this and that, not gonna work.

I disagree.
Looked through the top-25 today. There are 14 teams in there (over 1/2) that the public would label “football schools.”
Hell....Clemson and Alabama are right there in the polls and no way that their basketball coaches pull the strings on campus.

Basketball and football can completely co-exist at a high level. You don’t need a larger-than-life person casting a shadow over the entire athletic department. You have a competent coach and it’s not that hard to get good very fast.
However, you need a competent leader. You don’t need an icon.