Enforcement of abortion pill bans

[Cortez88]

We will see many states make it illegal for women to take medication that will result in an abortion. Presumably those laws would make it illegal to buy or sell the pills in that state. Probably to possess the pills too.

My question is, if this is your preference, how far are you willing to go for enforcement? Do we inspect all citizens mail? Will we track wowens online activity to see if she bought pills? What if the authorities receive a complaint that a woman was previously pregnant but isn’t now? What would that investigation look like? How much resources are we willing to commit? What would we cut to shift those resources?

Even those who are staunchly pro life have to concede that we could run up against some very concerning privacy issues. Are you willing to live in a surveillance state to prevent abortions via a pill?

 

[Spartans9312]

We will see many states make it illegal for women to take medication that will result in an abortion. Presumably those laws would make it illegal to buy or sell the pills in that state. Probably to possess the pills too.

My question is, if this is your preference, how far are you willing to go for enforcement? Do we inspect all citizens mail? Will we track wowens online activity to see if she bought pills? What if the authorities receive a complaint that a woman was previously pregnant but isn’t now? What would that investigation look like? How much resources are we willing to commit? What would we cut to shift those resources?

Even those who are staunchly pro life have to concede that we could run up against some very concerning privacy issues. Are you willing to live in a surveillance state to prevent abortions via a pill?

What medications are being made illegal?

 

[Cortez88]

What medications are being made illegal?

I’m just assuming that will be the next fight. If you believe that an abortion is the termination of a child’s life, the method shouldn’t matter to you right?

I need to do more fact checking, but there’s noise out there that IUD are not being provided in some states.

 

[Spartans9312]

I’m just assuming that will be the next fight. If you believe that an abortion is the termination of a child’s life, the method shouldn’t matter to you right?

I need to do more fact checking, but there’s noise out there that IUD are not being provided in some states.

Is it the timing of the placement of the IUD that's in question?

 

[Cortez88]

Is it the timing of the placement of the IUD that's in question?

Yes. Not a doctor here, but apparently it’s because the IUD traps the egg as opposed to preventing fertilization. I think that’s the argument.

 

[TMFT]

From a prosecutorial standpoint, I think it’ll be awfully hard to ban pills from a practical standpoint.

States don’t have the resources to surveillance mail or online ordering of all of their citizens, to say nothing of the 4th Amendment.

Possession of the pills would likely be a crime if the states specifically list them as such, although they might need to add them to schedule 1 of their controlled substances acts. But it’s worth noting that the pills will likely be consumed pretty quickly so possession won’t be for long.

And good luck to the prosecutors proving that a person took a pill and caused a miscarriage. Evidence issues would be huge plus putting women in prison for abortion will not be very popular in the long run.

 

[Spartans9312]

Yes. Not a doctor here, but apparently it’s because the IUD traps the egg as opposed to preventing fertilization. I think that’s the argument.

I don't see any way that IUDs are banned.
I'm guessing that is where you are going with this thread.
They are used as a form of contraception.
Could there be a push made for a negative pregnancy test before placing IUD? Possibly

 

[mcmurtry66]

From a prosecutorial standpoint, I think it’ll be awfully hard to ban pills from a practical standpoint.

States don’t have the resources to surveillance mail or online ordering of all of their citizens, to say nothing of the 4th Amendment.

Possession of the pills would likely be a crime if the states specifically list them as such, although they might need to add them to schedule 1 of their controlled substances acts. But it’s worth noting that the pills will likely be consumed pretty quickly so possession won’t be for long.

And good luck to the prosecutors proving that a person took a pill and caused a miscarriage. Evidence issues would be huge plus putting women in prison for abortion will not be very popular in the long run.

Exactly.
Texas law saws life begins at fertilization. Fertilization is when the egg meets the sperm. Plan B and some iuds prevent the sperm and egg from meeting either by changing the timing of the release of the egg so it misses the sperm or making the swim too difficult for the sperm to reach the egg. So if fertilization triggers the law but we don't reach fertilization the contraception is fine

 

[Cortez88]

Exactly.
Further Texas law says life begins at fertilization. Fertilization is when the egg meets the sperm. Plan B and some iuds prevent the sperm and egg from meeting either by changing the time of the release egg so it misses the sperm or making the swim too difficult for the sperm to reach the egg. So if fertilization triggers the law but we don't reach fertilization the contraception is fine

It that’s dodging everything that affects post fertilization, which is the point of discussion for my OP.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I’m just assuming that will be the next fight. If you believe that an abortion is the termination of a child’s life, the method shouldn’t matter to you right?

I need to do more fact checking, but there’s noise out there that IUD are not being provided in some states.

But if you prevent the sperm from reaching the egg as in Plan B by changing ovulation timing nothing is being terminated. Fertilization never occurred. Using Tx law as an example it says life begins with fertilization. Fertilization is when the egg meets the sperm. Not a process imo or the definition

 

[Cortez88]

But if you prevent the sperm from reaching the egg as in Plan B by changing ovulation timing nothing is being terminated. Fertilization never occurred

For sake of argument, let’s say there is a pill out there that terminates pregnancy X weeks post fertilization.

 

[mcmurtry66]

For sake of argument, let’s say there is a pill out there that terminates pregnancy X weeks post fertilization.

What I skimmed in 2 seconds that would run afoul of the Tx law. Fertilization = life and triggers the law from that point on

 

[Cortez88]

What I skimmed in 2 seconds that would run afoul of the Tx law. Fertilization = life and triggers the law from that point on

Which gets back to my OP, what lengths will Texas go to to enforce its law?

Edit: Some quick web searching says that the abortion pill works up to 70 days after pregnancy. So clearly violates Texas law.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Which gets back to my OP, what lengths will Texas go to to enforce its law?

Edit: Some quick web searching says that the abortion pill works up to 70 days after pregnancy. So clearly violates Texas law.

I guess look at TMFT post above. Seems to make sense

 

[mcmurtry66]

Which gets back to my OP, what lengths will Texas go to to enforce its law?

Edit: Some quick web searching says that the abortion pill works up to 70 days after pregnancy. So clearly violates Texas law.

I'm in a red state with a red gov. The percentage chance that Stl city or county prosecutors would prosecute this is 0

 

[Cortez88]

I guess look at TMFT post above. Seems to make sense

So a bunch of states will have laws on the books that are not enforced? Will prosecutors get blow back for failing to prosecute these crimes?

I think people are underestimating the anti abortion crowd here. They just won the biggest battle. I can’t imagine they stop the war now.

 

[mcmurtry66]

So a bunch of states will have laws on the books that are not enforced? Will prosecutors get blow back for failing to prosecute these crimes?

I think people are underestimating the anti abortion crowd here. They just won the biggest battle. I can’t imagine they stop the war now.

Cities are blue. Mayors are blue. DA's are blue. The prosecutors in Stl city and county are black and liberal as hell. No chance they prosecute. And what's more they are limited in resources. They don't have time for those cases when they can't even get to violent offenses

 

[Cortez88]

Cities are blue. Mayors are blue. DA's are blue. The prosecutors in Stl city and county are black and liberal as hell. No chance they prosecute. And what's more they are limited in resources. They don't have time for those cases when they can't even get to violent offenses

Many red state legislatures are passing laws to force local prosecutors to prosecute things like a small amount of marijuana. These laws usually allow the AG to step in when the local prosecutor won’t do the job.

 

[TMFT]

Many red state legislatures are passing laws to force local prosecutors to prosecute things like a small amount of marijuana. These laws usually allow the AG to step in when the local prosecutor won’t do the job.

It’s not that they won’t have laws on the book to prosecute, I just don’t see how they’ll be able to effectively do so.

Same as laws preventing people from leaving the state to get an abortion. Good luck with that from all kinds of vantage points.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

What medications are being made illegal?

why would they need be made illegal in separate legislation.

if an abortion is illegal, and the pill terminates the pregnancy, wouldn't he pill become illegal at the same time all other forms of terminating a pregnancy is.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Many red state legislatures are passing laws to force local prosecutors to prosecute things like a small amount of marijuana. These laws usually allow the AG to step in when the local prosecutor won’t do the job.

Yeah that part could be tricky I guess. The AG here is running for senate and very aggressive

But policing it would be impossible. If I run to ofallon Ill and but plan b who would know

 

[Spartans9312]

why would they need be made illegal in separate legislation.

if an abortion is illegal, and the pill terminates the pregnancy, wouldn't he pill become illegal at the same time all other forms of terminating a pregnancy is.

What medications are now illegal in the states, like Texas, since the SC decision?

 

[Cortez88]

It’s not that they won’t have laws on the book to prosecute, I just don’t see how they’ll be able to effectively do so.

Same as laws preventing people from leaving the state to get an abortion. Good luck with that from all kinds of vantage points.

Logistically I agree with you. But don’t you think all legitimate pharmaceutical companies will not seek or send pills to those states? There is zero chance compliance departments would allow that. There are a list of no fly states already I bet.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

What medications are now illegal in the states, like Texas, since the SC decision?

DUH!

go back and re read my post you are responding to.

 

[Spartans9312]

DUH!

go back and re read my post you are responding to.

So nothing. Got it.
Give me a name?

 

[larsIU]

Which gets back to my OP, what lengths will Texas go to to enforce its law?

We already know what TX would do in this situation, just have citizens report other citizens. Probably for a reward.

Agree with everyone (nearly) here though.....it's almost unenforceable. And most laws that are unenforceable aren't enforced. So we've got that going for us.

 

[TMFT]

Logistically I agree with you. But don’t you think all legitimate pharmaceutical companies will not seek or send pills to those states? There is zero chance compliance departments would allow that. There are a list of no fly states already I bet.

Good point. I don't know about pharma companies, but international delivery won't be stopped. Like, RU486 isn't going to be illegal federally any time soon so there won't be any kind of federal trafficking case it would all have to be state level.

 

[Cortez88]

Good point. I don't know about pharma companies, but international delivery won't be stopped. Like, RU486 isn't going to be illegal federally any time soon so there won't be any kind of federal trafficking case it would all have to be state level.

Yeah the state level is what I’m most interested in. A pharmaceutical company simply cannot risk being shut out of a market the size of Texas, for example. Also, in highly regulated industries, a black mark in one state can affect you in other states.

 

[TMFT]

Yeah the state level is what I’m most interested in. A pharmaceutical company simply cannot risk being shut out of a market the size of Texas, for example. Also, in highly regulated industries, a black mark in one state can affect you in other states.

I have to admit I know very little about the pharma business. But the pharma companies aren't directly supplying are they? Like, they supply Walgreen's, for example, and Walgreen's sells right? So I can't imagine Texas would force Eli Lilly to decide between selling any products in Texas because some pharmacy in Canada ships to Texans. Or, in the most craven situation, if I were a company producing an abortion pill, I'd just spin off that business into its own entity to manufacture & distribute and keep the parent company out of it.

 

[zeke4ahs]

We will see many states make it illegal for women to take medication that will result in an abortion. Presumably those laws would make it illegal to buy or sell the pills in that state. Probably to possess the pills too.

My question is, if this is your preference, how far are you willing to go for enforcement? Do we inspect all citizens mail? Will we track wowens online activity to see if she bought pills? What if the authorities receive a complaint that a woman was previously pregnant but isn’t now? What would that investigation look like? How much resources are we willing to commit? What would we cut to shift those resources?

Even those who are staunchly pro life have to concede that we could run up against some very concerning privacy issues. Are you willing to live in a surveillance state to prevent abortions via a pill?

Watch out MTIOF will insert himself here to call you out for spreading hysterical propaganda.

 

[zeke4ahs]

So a bunch of states will have laws on the books that are not enforced? Will prosecutors get blow back for failing to prosecute these crimes?

I think people are underestimating the anti abortion crowd here. They just won the biggest battle. I can’t imagine they stop the war now.

Spoiler alert: they won’t. Many groups have made that very clear.

 

[Ohio Guy]

We will see many states make it illegal for women to take medication that will result in an abortion. Presumably those laws would make it illegal to buy or sell the pills in that state. Probably to possess the pills too.

My question is, if this is your preference, how far are you willing to go for enforcement? Do we inspect all citizens mail? Will we track wowens online activity to see if she bought pills? What if the authorities receive a complaint that a woman was previously pregnant but isn’t now? What would that investigation look like? How much resources are we willing to commit? What would we cut to shift those resources?

Even those who are staunchly pro life have to concede that we could run up against some very concerning privacy issues. Are you willing to live in a surveillance state to prevent abortions via a pill?

My guess is that enforcement will look a lot like what it did with marijuana a decade or so ago. If you're caught with it, you're in trouble, but for the most part, no one is really looking for it.

 

[Cortez88]

My guess is that enforcement will look a lot like what it did with marijuana a decade or so ago. If you're caught with it, you're in trouble, but for the most part, no one is really looking for it.

I think this is the most likely outcome. A wildcard here is Texas’ private citizen claim. If you incentivize the nuts to go catch the “criminals” it could get interesting.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

if abortion at any point is outlawed in a state, how is an abortion pill not outlawed at the same time in that state.

and another question, is the abortion pill over the counter rather than prescription?

 

[outside shooter]

What medications are being made illegal?

The abortion pill has been declared illegal already in Arkansas, but with no word on how they will enforce it.

 

[Spartans9312]

The abortion pill has been declared illegal already in Arkansas, but with no word on how they will enforce it.

Mifepristone?

 

[i'vegotwinners]

The abortion pill has been declared illegal already in Arkansas, but with no word on how they will enforce it.

that would keep it off the store shelves in state.

which would require ordering off the internet or traveling out of state to purchase.

which will result in less use of said pill.

which will result in more unwanted pregnancies.

which will result in more non pill abortions down term.

banning the abortion pill means more medical abortions, and later in the term.

 

[Spartans9312]

that would keep it off the store shelves in state.

which would require ordering off the internet or traveling out of state to purchase.

which will result in less use of said pill.

which will result in more unwanted pregnancies.

which will result in more non pill abortions down term.

banning the abortion pill means more medical abortions, and later in the term.

Is it Rx only? Or available OTC?

 

[outside shooter]

Mifepristone?

That's the main one and is most commonly used, but all such mediciations are being banned in many places. Laws are being written very broadly, including that mail order prescriptions can only be obtained through telehealth services that recognize and follow the laws of the state in which the patient resides. Obviously, it is not sure how this would even apply to a FOREIGN telehealth provider.

Women in states that ban abortion will still be able to get abortion pills online from overseas

Many women in states with bans on abortion will likely turn to websites to order mifepristone, and self manage abortions at home.

www.cnbc.com

Abortion bans went into effect in Arkansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Utah and Alabama on Friday. Idaho, Tennessee and Texas will implement bans in 30 days. Bans in Mississippi, North Dakota and Wyoming are set to take effect after a certification process.

Nearly all of these 14 states specifically outlaw the prescription or administration of any drug to terminate a pregnancy. Other states will likely grow the list, though legal frameworks are likely to be challenged, albeit generally in GOP-packed court systems

 

[Spartans9312]

That's the main one and is most commonly used, but all such mediciations are being banned in many places. Laws are being written very broadly, including that mail order prescriptions can only be obtained through telehealth services that recognize and follow the laws of the state in which the patient resides. Obviously, it is not sure how this would even apply to a FOREIGN telehealth provider.

Women in states that ban abortion will still be able to get abortion pills online from overseas

Many women in states with bans on abortion will likely turn to websites to order mifepristone, and self manage abortions at home.

www.cnbc.com

Abortion bans went into effect in Arkansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Utah and Alabama on Friday. Idaho, Tennessee and Texas will implement bans in 30 days. Bans in Mississippi, North Dakota and Wyoming are set to take effect after a certification process.

Nearly all of these 14 states specifically outlaw the prescription or administration of any drug to terminate a pregnancy. Other states will likely grow the list, though legal frameworks are likely to be challenged, albeit generally in GOP-packed court systems

I could see mifepristone availability being limited in some states based on what the current law is on abortion.
I really am not sure how the providers acquire it at this time. Whether direct shipment from company or thru a wholesaler.
I still don’t see levonorgestrel, norgestrel or IUDs being unavailable in these states.
You said and some others…have you seen a list?