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END IT ALL. DEAR GOD, END THIS CIRCUS.

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Maybe this has already been mentioned, but I can see what's coming on the dwindling attendance at games.....
McRobbie: "What do we do about this men's program? Attendance is falling off the table!"
Glass: "It's all about the road construction between here and Martinsville!"

McHoop
 
Did you all see this tweet from ESPN's Dana O'Neil last night? This is what Twitter has become. Everybody finds it funny at this point.


Right before tip in the studio, Jay Williams said a key to the game was whether Indiana would try to play team defense. Can't remember his quote verbatim, but the word "try" was most definitely used and stuck out like a sore thumb.
 
Did you read the rest of her tweets from last night? Fantastic

Dana O'NeilESPN Senior Writer
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I don't think Indiana's defensive problem is lack of effort. It's lack of knowledge. Hoosiers don't know how ... Which actually is worse.

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NCAAM 13h

This is another one from last night that I point out because it's similar to a tweet I think was from Bozich quoting a NBA scout watching them in Maui. Guy said effort wasn't the problem, they play hard on defense but they don't close out close out aggressively, the rotations are crap, etc....all stuff supporting the problem's not mainly with guys on the court.
 
Maybe this has already been mentioned, but I can see what's coming on the dwindling attendance at games.....
McRobbie: "What do we do about this men's program? Attendance is falling off the table!"
Glass: "It's all about the road construction between here and Martinsville!"

McHoop

And we all know the reason for the delay in road construction is that they didn't have the road crew they expected to have. Plus the road crew is young and inexperienced.
 
I used to think Bracey was my most hated IU player.....Yogi is making a strong case.

But I really believe under any decent coach he would have flourished.

I always thought Bracey got a tough break.
He didn't realize he was going to play for a coach who wouldn't develop him at all.
In my opinion most of Braceys failings fall on Davis.
 
I always thought Bracey got a tough break.
He didn't realize he was going to play for a coach who wouldn't develop him at all.
In my opinion most of Braceys failings fall on Davis.

True....guess he and Yogi are in similar situations with their coach. But it always seemed to me that from day 1 Bracey was always about Bracey.
 
I
True....guess he and Yogi are in similar situations with their coach. But it always seemed to me that from day 1 Bracey was always about Bracey.
Feel more that way about Yogi.
Bracey never had the rep on campus that he thought he was better than the rest of the students (at least not that I was aware of, and I was on campus those 3 years)
Bracey never told a cop "Do you know who I am"
Bracey never planned a dinner/event to say he was returning.
 
Dana O'NeilESPN Senior Writer
oneil_dana_m.jpg

I don't think Indiana's defensive problem is lack of effort. It's lack of knowledge. Hoosiers don't know how ... Which actually is worse.

Share

icon-espn-e-@2x.png

NCAAM 13h

This is another one from last night that I point out because it's similar to a tweet I think was from Bozich quoting a NBA scout watching them in Maui. Guy said effort wasn't the problem, they play hard on defense but they don't close out close out aggressively, the rotations are crap, etc....all stuff supporting the problem's not mainly with guys on the court.

I've been saying this for years...it's systematic. Listen to his press conference last night, I truly question his defensive acumen. Basically sounds like your drunk uncle at a YMCA game telling you to man up and guard your man better.

He really did say 'we don't want to help on defense'. What in the total F??

Everybody turn your head north and look at Ray Davis. The kid was a 30 point, ball hogging scorer in high school. Painter sat his ass and demanded that he developed a defensive identity within the framework of their defensive scheme.

Today he's considered one of the best defensive players in the country.

It can be done if you can coach it.
 
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He really did say 'we don't want to help on defense'.
There's times you don't want to overhelp. Like against Wisconsin's guards, but yea, he's an idiot. I told you guys the day I figured it out, not that that's any kind of accomplishment. It was during an interview on ESPN, where they were talking to coaches about analytics. Crean answered (paraphrased) "we use +/- to gauge other teams weaknesses". I don't really consider plus/minus analytics, they're kind of a joke stat as far as I'm concerned. More importantly, there is no possible way to gauge another teams weaknesses using it. He talks to talk and sound smart. He's an idiot. Blame Izzo for hyping him. It's like he created a sleeper agent coach.

btw- have you seen Hollowell's stats?
 
I've been saying this for years...it's systematic. Listen to his press conference last night, I truly question his defensive acumen. Basically sounds like your drunk uncle at a YMCA game telling you to man up and guard your man better.

He really did say 'we don't want to help on defense'. What in the total F??

Everybody turn your head north and look at Ray Davis. The kid was a 30 point, ball hogging scorer in high school. Painter sat his ass and demanded that he developed a defensive identity within the framework of their defensive scheme.

Today he's considered one of the best defensive players in the country.

It can be done if you can coach it.
It's finally happened. We've dropped so low, we're jealous of Matt Painter.
 
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Bracey's first 8 games his freshman year were phenom. But he was victim of Davis.

Yogi is just simply way overrated.

What are Hollowells stats?
 
I've been saying this for years...it's systematic. Listen to his press conference last night, I truly question his defensive acumen. Basically sounds like your drunk uncle at a YMCA game telling you to man up and guard your man better.

He really did say 'we don't want to help on defense'. What in the total F??

It can be done if you can coach it.

I heard him say that "we don't want to help on defense" and that's when my opinion of him went from him being a below average college coach to being unqualified to coach in a CYO league. That might have been the single dumbest thing I've heard him say, and he's said a lot of dumbass things.

The man has the defensive BBall IQ of a turnip. I was waiting for someone to follow up and ask him since no one after Oladipo has been able to keep anyone in front of them, how did he think the whole "we don't help on defense" was going to work?

Leave the ball, Tommy Turnip.
 
It's finally happened. We've dropped so low, we're jealous of Matt Painter.

He's frickin correct. A buddy of mine and I went to watch Perea at LaLu since we live so close and accidentally caught a glimpse of Ray Davis. He was the most selfish ball hogginness son of a gun I ever saw. We couldn't wait to laugh at him at Purdue.

Jesus Christ how the joke was on us.
 
There's times you don't want to overhelp. Like against Wisconsin's guards, but yea, he's an idiot. I told you guys the day I figured it out, not that that's any kind of accomplishment. It was during an interview on ESPN, where they were talking to coaches about analytics. Crean answered (paraphrased) "we use +/- to gauge other teams weaknesses". I don't really consider plus/minus analytics, they're kind of a joke stat as far as I'm concerned. More importantly, there is no possible way to gauge another teams weaknesses using it. He talks to talk and sound smart. He's an idiot. Blame Izzo for hyping him. It's like he created a sleeper agent coach.

btw- have you seen Hollowell's stats?

18.6/3.8/2.0 . . . are you surprised? I'm not . . . .

BTW, as to Crean's "we don't want to help on defense", my sense is that he's talking about the attitude of the players, not the intent of the coaching staff . . . I hope.
 
I always thought Bracey got a tough break.
He didn't realize he was going to play for a coach who wouldn't develop him at all.
In my opinion most of Braceys failings fall on Davis.

Bracey was never the same after the back injury his freshman year.
 
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18.6/3.8/2.0 . . . are you surprised? I'm not . . . .

BTW, as to Crean's "we don't want to help on defense", my sense is that he's talking about the attitude of the players, not the intent of the coaching staff . . . I hope.
Nope. He was explaining that the biggest problem on defense is that we weren't as good on the ball, and that meant we had to help, which we didn't want to do, because it left guys open. The impression I got was that we don't know how to run help defense properly because Crean doesn't teach them how, thinking that helping is something that only happens in an emergency, rather than a skill to be honed (and even then, WTF?)...
 

  • Nope. He was explaining that the biggest problem on defense is that we weren't as good on the ball, and that meant we had to help, which we didn't want to do, because it left guys open. The impression I got was that we don't know how to run help defense properly because Crean doesn't teach them how, thinking that helping is something that only happens in an emergency, rather than a skill to be honed (and even then, WTF?)...

    aFu_BangingYourHead1.gif
 
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There's times you don't want to overhelp. Like against Wisconsin's guards, but yea, he's an idiot. I told you guys the day I figured it out, not that that's any kind of accomplishment. It was during an interview on ESPN, where they were talking to coaches about analytics. Crean answered (paraphrased) "we use +/- to gauge other teams weaknesses". I don't really consider plus/minus analytics, they're kind of a joke stat as far as I'm concerned. More importantly, there is no possible way to gauge another teams weaknesses using it. He talks to talk and sound smart. He's an idiot. Blame Izzo for hyping him. It's like he created a sleeper agent coach.

btw- have you seen Hollowell's stats?

What is he almost 19 points a game and very few turnovers? Wonder what his PER is?

What gets me is we lose more ranked players than most programs get. Minnesota is still celebrating their 'highest ranked recruit in years' in Amir Coffey (lives in the twin cities and is the son of former gopher Richard Coffey). Amir is a four star.

The 'we don't want to help' comment kills me because it's what I free up with. Today's athletes are too good off the dribble to hope that all five guys can play a straight up man to man. I was watching the Duke game laughing my ass off because they extended their offense, our guys came out mano to mano to guard and now Duke had all kinds of room to break it down. Once they beat one guy it just collapsed like a house of cards.

Help defense to me is all about recognizing, communicating and most importantly anticipating vs reacting. If you're reacting your dead. Help defense is like in football when the cornerback will guide the reciever to the safeties. If someone gets beat, the other helps and everyone else quickly rotates and switches.

Now if you're a badass like Davis you play the strong hand, force them the other way to their hand and to your help and anticipate and switch when the help takes over, cutting off the pass while anticipating it.

Pretty basic but effective and BEAUTIFUL when a team can do it. Hell I'd rather watch that then a dunk and three point show.
 
What is he almost 19 points a game and very few turnovers? Wonder what his PER is?

What gets me is we lose more ranked players than most programs get. Minnesota is still celebrating their 'highest ranked recruit in years' in Amir Coffey (lives in the twin cities and is the son of former gopher Richard Coffey). Amir is a four star.

The 'we don't want to help' comment kills me because it's what I free up with. Today's athletes are too good off the dribble to hope that all five guys can play a straight up man to man. I was watching the Duke game laughing my ass off because they extended their offense, our guys came out mano to mano to guard and now Duke had all kinds of room to break it down. Once they beat one guy it just collapsed like a house of cards.

Help defense to me is all about recognizing, communicating and most importantly anticipating vs reacting. If you're reacting your dead. Help defense is like in football when the cornerback will guide the reciever to the safeties. If someone gets beat, the other helps and everyone else quickly rotates and switches.

Now if you're a badass like Davis you play the strong hand, force them the other way to their hand and to your help and anticipate and switch when the help takes over, cutting off the pass while anticipating it.

Pretty basic but effective and BEAUTIFUL when a team can do it. Hell I'd rather watch that then a dunk and three point show.
17 0r 18 PPG, 24 per 40 minutes, 27+ PER.... 25+ adj for SOS. Only a few games in but he's having a great start. Less than 15% TO ratio and more assists than TO's.
 
Bracey's first 8 games his freshman year were phenom. But he was victim of Davis.

Yogi is just simply way overrated.

What are Hollowells stats?

Yogi is not overrated. He's a very, very good talent. He's been a waste at IU under Crean....as they play this ridiculous "no structure" philosophy. Put Yogi at Duke for 4 years, he'd be a monster.
 
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Yogi is not overrated. He's a very, very good talent. He's been a waste at IU under Crean....as they play this ridiculous "no structure" philosophy. Put Yogi at Duke for 4 years, he'd be a monster.
I hate to tell you this but development of guards and wings is not one of Crean's problems. Groce? Yes, Painter? Yes. McCaffery? Yes. Not Crean. On average a majority of his players in those positions produce numbers (SOS and pace neutral) higher than their ranking's average. Yogi under Crean has not been great nor has he been bad. 22.4 is the average for his role, position and ranking. He had 22.1 (adj for SOS) last year. He has about the same this year. Blackmon is also over average for his role and ranking. Of our guards and wings only Johnson is under. Now using them correctly in game situations is another story.
 
I hate to tell you this but development of guards and wings is not one of Crean's problems. Groce? Yes, Painter? Yes. McCaffery? Yes. Not Crean. On average a majority of his players in those positions produce numbers (SOS and pace neutral) higher than their ranking's average. Yogi under Crean has not been great nor has he been bad. 22.4 is the average for his role, position and ranking. He had 22.1 (adj for SOS) last year. He has about the same this year. Blackmon is also over average for his role and ranking. Of our guards and wings only Johnson is under. Now using them correctly in game situations is another story.
Yeah, but do the numbers reflect defensive development?
 
I hate to tell you this but development of guards and wings is not one of Crean's problems. Groce? Yes, Painter? Yes. McCaffery? Yes. Not Crean. On average a majority of his players in those positions produce numbers (SOS and pace neutral) higher than their ranking's average. Yogi under Crean has not been great nor has he been bad. 22.4 is the average for his role, position and ranking. He had 22.1 (adj for SOS) last year. He has about the same this year. Blackmon is also over average for his role and ranking. Of our guards and wings only Johnson is under. Now using them correctly in game situations is another story.

Not familiar with the metric....what is it? I don't think Yogi has been bad whatsoever..hell, he's been IU's best player for 3 years now, by a pretty decent margin. Blackmon is very good too, on one half of the floor. How do these ratings incorporate defense?
 
Yeah, but do the numbers reflect defensive development?

Defense is a team discipline. Not making excuses but that's what I firmly believe and have experienced when playing. Now I get to say this .. Vic was a good individual defender, but a poor team defender. I don't think Crean kows how to teach defense and his Kenpom numbers support me.

Five poor individual defenders if they play well with each other can play effective defense. So, I don't believe we have poor defensive players. I believe Hartman and Blackmon are slow footed. I believe Yogi is short. I believe Bryant is slow to react. But I've seen Wisconsin teams with five slow footed non jumping crew cut guys dominate teams defensively and without much pressure. Look at Creans efficiency numbers. He truly is a poor defensive coach. Generally you see top offensive guys with low defense numbers coming from mid majors, where they just don't have the athletes. Major division guys don't last this long with that poor a defensive philosophy.
 
Not familiar with the metric....what is it? I don't think Yogi has been bad whatsoever..hell, he's been IU's best player for 3 years now, by a pretty decent margin. Blackmon is very good too, on one half of the floor. How do these ratings incorporate defense?
PER..
 
Defense is a team discipline. Not making excuses but that's what I firmly believe and have experienced when playing. Now I get to say this .. Vic was a good individual defender, but a poor team defender. I don't think Crean kows how to teach defense and his Kenpom numbers support me.

Five poor individual defenders if they play well with each other can play effective defense. So, I don't believe we have poor defensive players. I believe Hartman and Blackmon are slow footed. I believe Yogi is short. I believe Bryant is slow to react. But I've seen Wisconsin teams with five slow footed non jumping crew cut guys dominate teams defensively and without much pressure. Look at Creans efficiency numbers. He truly is a poor defensive coach. Generally you see top offensive guys with low defense numbers coming from mid majors, where they just don't have the athletes. Major division guys don't last this long with that poor a defensive philosophy.

This is very accurate. He also struggles greatly in situational offense, when it's demanded.
 
Defense is a team discipline. Not making excuses but that's what I firmly believe and have experienced when playing. Now I get to say this .. Vic was a good individual defender, but a poor team defender. I don't think Crean kows how to teach defense and his Kenpom numbers support me.

Five poor individual defenders if they play well with each other can play effective defense. So, I don't believe we have poor defensive players. I believe Hartman and Blackmon are slow footed. I believe Yogi is short. I believe Bryant is slow to react. But I've seen Wisconsin teams with five slow footed non jumping crew cut guys dominate teams defensively and without much pressure. Look at Creans efficiency numbers. He truly is a poor defensive coach. Generally you see top offensive guys with low defense numbers coming from mid majors, where they just don't have the athletes. Major division guys don't last this long with that poor a defensive philosophy.
All that makes sense, but I asked because ultimately the question wasn't about the quality of the players as defenders, but the quality of Crean in development. Whether you focus on individual or team defense, wouldn't you agree that Crean's players don't really develop in either area, no matter the position they play?
 
Hey btw
Yeah, but do the numbers reflect defensive development?
I never posted this on the IC (this year) but yes we do have something that represents defense or any other intangible. We simply call it an IR - Intangibles Rating. It creates a PER without any offensive stats, which are then replaced with a team point average, and other things like roland avg, and win shares, and def PER. We created it because PER does a poor job representing players like Dane Fife, and Aaron Craft. Odd thing, most good teams have one player sometimes two guys who's intangibles PER is higher than their actual. Butler was full of them. MSUu always has a couple. Same with Michigan. Wisconsin has always had them. Gassar last year. Rosie Jones at Butler. R Davis at Purdue. Jefferson and Jones at Duke. The "glue or guts" guy. We have not, with the exception of Yogi his freshman year had a player who has had a higher IR than PER.
 
All that makes sense, but I asked because ultimately the question wasn't about the quality of the players as defenders, but the quality of Crean in development. Whether you focus on individual or team defense, wouldn't you agree that Crean's players don't really develop in either area, no matter the position they play?
Yea, look at the post above. I think that says a lot about all "team" oriented development. He develops physical attributes well, but not the cerebral or team aspect of the game. But, I believe the thing he fails at the most is developing and appreciating the role guys. The ones to do the dirty work, which includes defense. Who is our defesive stopper? Who's our ball control PG? Who is our big assed thug to control the paint? We never have those guys.

Basketball Jesus had teams where two three players getting offensive numbers and the rest were all role players. Jamie Dixon at Pitt, Howland at Pitt and UCLA. they both prospered when they have a few of these intangibles guys. When they each started recruiting better and got teams full of "stars" they both failed. Marshall had 3 last year.
 
Yea, look at the post above. I think that says a lot about all "team" oriented development. He develops physical attributes well, but not the cerebral or team aspect of the game. But, I believe the thing he fails at the most is developing and appreciating the role guys. The ones to do the dirty work, which includes defense. Who is our defesive stopper? Who's our ball control PG? Who is our big assed thug to control the paint? We never have those guys.

Basketball Jesus had teams where two three players getting offensive numbers and the rest were all role players. Jamie Dixon at Pitt, Howland at Pitt and UCLA. they both prospered when they have a few of these intangibles guys. When they each started recruiting better and got teams full of "stars" they both failed. Marshall had 3 last year.
And that really brings it full circle back to what we've all been saying, which is that he just doesn't have a very deep understanding of the game himself.
 
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Archie Miller will be our coach next fall. It will be a 180 from what we're watching now
 
Archie Miller will be our coach next fall. It will be a 180 from what we're watching now
I don't want him. He doesn't fit the criteria.

Look for two things. No excuses. 70% winning percentage. At least 3 out of 4 years winning (in competition for) a conference title. Archie Miller has done neither.
 
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