That's interesting because most of the complaints I'm seeing suggest that those complaining are upset that other people now have the same freedom to express their opinion that the complainer has always had and exercised.
Elanor Roosevelt
- Thread starter CO. Hoosier
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That's interesting because most of the complaints I'm seeing suggest that those complaining are upset that other people now have the same freedom to express their opinion that the complainer has always had and exercised.
Was it long ago that people would say they were against gays working? I wonder if someone put up a BLM sticker 2 years ago if there would have Bern pressure for them to remove it.
absolutely. they make an instagram story at a rally at school and shade their instagram black and that's as deep as they look into any of it. as i've belabored before, none of them are going to volunteer their time at the local methadone clinic, or do ged training, or help with covid testing at a center in a depressed area. but they're woke for sure.
this divisiveness has been brewing since trump was elected. i heard it loud and obnoxiously with the post election day cries of "not my president." it is your president. win or lose. we're all in it together. then of course trump comes in and instead of bridging the parties lights a fire on the divisiveness and we're where we are today.
I don't think protests are the same expressing an opinion. Usually protests are intollerant rejection of other opinions without any real expression. Expressing an opinion takes some knowledge and thought. A protest takes only a can of spray paint and a piece of cardboard.
Yes. Is that an argument for the culture? Do you think that’s what it took?
Names on the back of jerseys? I was instructed growing up that names on the back of jerseys is wrong and it's all about the name on the front of the jerseys and anybody who thought differently was bad.
I've been working for more than 50 years. I have never heard that. Statistics show that if it gays in the workplace was a problem, it was miniscule. Gays have never suffered the same economic deprivations that blacks have suffered.
And this. Hello Colin Kaepernick
I'm not arguing against protests if that is your point. But I am saying that not every issue is amenable to a protest mentality--which is where we are headed.
Haha! You're so frothing at the mouth about "groupthink!!!" that you've lost your everloving mind, dude. And you're getting the kind of responses that your lack of thoughtfulness merit. So, please do continue to tell me all about my "side", "LA", where I live, where I'm from, what I think, and and what I'm about. It's absolutely hilarious that you are raging "groupthink!" at people who won't simply accept your take on an issue.
And your "voting for Biden" threats are really tired. You're sounding like winners on that point. I know you think you're the arbiter of the "independent voter", but so does about 75% of the rest of the country. If "cancel culture" is your one issue voter position, you'll just have to do what you gotta do. That's how the marketplace of ideas works.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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We’re going in circles and I think it’s because you don’t want to admit there’s a problem (despite Obama trying to coax the woke into stopping this behavior) so I’m going to stop after this. It’s exhausting and the sun is finally coming out outside.
Refusing to put up a vacuous sticker is not a “controversial” idea and it should have zero bearing on future employment and collaboration with brainwashed colleagues. This is not some cosmic balance in the force. This is coddling and brainwashing and squashing of individual freedoms. I can’t believe we’re even having this conversation. Again, I think you’re being intellectually dishonest if you try to whatabout this.
We agree that people who traditionally haven’t had a loud voice in the past are getting one now. The problem is that they’re majorly ****ing up the opportunity.
A number of questions if you're willing and able to answer, please:
-- Did she go to Human Resources? If not, why not?
-- if she did go to HR, what was their response to violations of corporate hostile workplace/ harassment policies?
-- What was her original reason for not accepting the sticker? Was the initial request coercive or did the coercion not start until after her (in the first place) rejection?
Thanks
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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yeah I’m out man. You’ve turned into the king of snark on this site and I don’t care what respect you have / had for me. Your head is so far up your ass on this and that’s why I’m “frothed.” I’m glad that you’re pleased to walk to the drum beat. When the drums turn on you I hope you do all right.Haha! You're so frothing at the mouth about "groupthink!!!" that you've lost your everloving mind, dude. And you're getting the kind of responses that your lack of thoughtfulness merit. So, please do continue to tell me all about my "side", "LA", where I live, where I'm from, what I think, and and what I'm about. It's absolutely hilarious that you are raging "groupthink!" at people who won't simply accept your take on an issue.
And your "voting for Biden" threats are really tired. You're sounding like winners on that point. I know you think you're the arbiter of the "independent voter", but so does about 75% of the rest of the country. If "cancel culture" is your one issue voter position, you'll just have to do what you gotta do. That's how the marketplace of ideas works.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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She went to her boss to make sure all was ok. Her boss is a lesbian and the boss told her it’s perfectly fine and acceptable not to put up the sticker and she holds no grudge. Not good enough for her woke virtue signaling colleagues who still talk behind her back as if she’s wearing a white robe.
And this. Hello Colin Kaepernick
I'm not arguing against protests if that is your point. But I am saying that not every issue is amenable to a protest mentality--which is where we are headed.
CoH, was women's suffrage amenable to protest mentality?
Can you imagine the outrage of husbands in say 1915 when they found out their stay- at -home wife was parading herself in the city streets?
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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you know there was an outstanding back (for women's soccerHaha! You're so frothing at the mouth about "groupthink!!!" that you've lost your everloving mind, dude. And you're getting the kind of responses that your lack of thoughtfulness merit. So, please do continue to tell me all about my "side", "LA", where I live, where I'm from, what I think, and and what I'm about. It's absolutely hilarious that you are raging "groupthink!" at people who won't simply accept your take on an issue.
And your "voting for Biden" threats are really tired. You're sounding like winners on that point. I know you think you're the arbiter of the "independent voter", but so does about 75% of the rest of the country. If "cancel culture" is your one issue voter position, you'll just have to do what you gotta do. That's how the marketplace of ideas works.
) named hinkle whose story is an interesting read. she was clearly a top four back in the united states and would have been a starter for us national team. she was a bit of a bible thumper tho. in like 2017 or 18, i don't remember, she refused to wear the gay pride jersey they were going to play in. it sealed her fate. she was out and has been ever since.there's a very aggressive closed-minded attitude that attends the woke culture. and in many ways it's hypocritical.
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I can understand how frustrating it must be that I don't agree with your "groupthink".
I thought President Obama's quote from the article you linked was interesting.
“If all you’re doing is casting stones, you’re probably not going to get that far. That’s easy to do.”
I agree with him that it's not enough to call out things you disagree with. You've got to work to try to change them. I've always thought that muslim socialist is an insightful dude.
So, despite the continued insults you've launched at me in this thread, I still respect you despite how little you care about it. Hope that's okay.
You have never heard of that? Did not the Supreme Court just rule on this issue, are you saying it was a fake case?
Why do you think so many gays refused to come out, they just liked staying hidden?
People were booted from the military for being gay, is that nor being fired?
Gays found it easier to hide in plain sight than Blacks. I suspect you know that.
I think hiding in plain sight is a partial explanation. I had a gay paralegal in 1976, never thought about discharging him, until I suspected he was carrying on with a client. He quit before I confronted him.
In my 50 years, I have never had a gay discrimination issue. I've had scores of sex and race cases. The statistics that were kicked around when Colorado passed it's gay employment legislation were that the known cases where this law would have had an effect were in the single digits.
Poor JK Rowling. I actually feel sorry for her. She had no clue how insane these people are.
This is her original “transphobic” tweet.
This is her original “transphobic” tweet.
Not sure I understand your point here. As I said, protests, demonstrations, and marches certainly have their place in a democracy. But if we are serious about a viable marketplace of ideas where differeing viewpoints are brought forth; protests, are not consistent with that.
We know from Jane Fonda that what celebrities say can and will be held against them.
For us mere mortals, I agree the line should be much more toward free speech. Didn't the person that flipped off Trump's motorcade get fired? Is that cancel culture?
Simply put, anything we say that puts our employer in a bad light will be used against us. Be it the person that flipped off the motorcade or the people that reenacted Floyd's death.
But I certainly agree with the examples more akin to the AIDS ribbon. I largely do not signal, by nature I never, ever put up those Facebook frames to support this or that cause.
But I am not particularly upset an Anne Coulter or a Milo may not get invited to speak. Being a celebrity agent provocateur should not get rewarded. Heck, I am not even a fan of Sacha Baron Cohen..
For us mere mortals, I agree the line should be much more toward free speech. Didn't the person that flipped off Trump's motorcade get fired? Is that cancel culture?
Simply put, anything we say that puts our employer in a bad light will be used against us. Be it the person that flipped off the motorcade or the people that reenacted Floyd's death.
But I certainly agree with the examples more akin to the AIDS ribbon. I largely do not signal, by nature I never, ever put up those Facebook frames to support this or that cause.
But I am not particularly upset an Anne Coulter or a Milo may not get invited to speak. Being a celebrity agent provocateur should not get rewarded. Heck, I am not even a fan of Sacha Baron Cohen..
Of course protests are part of the marketplace of ideas. The point of a protest is to get people to pay attention to the message because they are ignoring it otherwise. If protests don't get people to pay attention, then the messengers may seek more aggressive means.
you know there was an outstanding back (for women's soccer
there's a very aggressive closed-minded attitude that attends the woke culture. and in many ways it's hypocritical.
I think I remember hearing about her and I think it's a real shame if she didn't make the team merely because she didn't want to wear a gay pride jersey. I suspect there is probably a little more to the story than just that, but that still may not justify the situation. Teams are always interesting because often the best 11 players don't make the best team. And, as with everything, the details matter, so I try to evaluate each situation on its own merits. I'm certain that sometimes people overreact or push agendas too far, but the pendulum swings too far sometimes. As most folks here seem to acknowledge, the marketplace of ideas exists and the trick is finding the right balance of where the line is drawn.
A protest made up of a diverse crowd standing behind an idea illustrates to on lookers that the supporters come from various walks of life.
The supporters of the idea thereby look more a cross section of America rather than a stereotyped preconceived version.
A BLM protest made up of angry black males with pick axes and blow torches wouldn't go over well in counteracting opponents of the ideas of which BLM believes.
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Agreed hoosboot. the jersey was just a totem for how her religious beliefs clashed with the very aggressive lgbtq agenda. because her beliefs didn't jive with their agenda she was forced out. in the world of employment law they call it a constructive discharge. as an aside when i say agenda i don't mean it in a pejorative way. somehow that word has become a hot button word with negative connotations, sadly. anyway an example of how the overzealous attitude (even for a good cause) of the woke culture chills speech and has real consequences.
I don't think you can successfully debate against the idea that most significant advances in this country have been the result of protests. Hell, that's how we began.
And our protests weren't always very nice, either.
https://historyplex.com/facts-about...iliation, but it didn't always stop with that.
The marketplace of ideas is a bring your own booth proposition. There are limits. To misquote Potter Stewart, I know them when I see them
Bingo bango.
My example from far back was from a simple discussion in the mid nineties of gays in the military that led to don't ask don't tell.
In this argument at the time if you were for it you got harrassed as a fag sympathizer. If you had a business that supported gays in the military people probably protested and tried to get others to protest your business.
Basically this progressive side was being cancelled.
Now, 25 years later, the right is whining that their views are being cancelled.
FYI....as you get older in a progressive society most of our views get cancelled by younger more progressive generations.
My great grandfather would probably be disgusted that women, African Americans and now gays are being accepted in power positions.
If my great grandfather said 'blacks are not as intelligent as whites and need to be separated from white people. There's a reason why we separated the races' then yeah, since that opinieis seen as bigoted and crazy racist today....those in power would cancel him out.
Welcome to getting older and to progression.
I think the most significant advances were the result of the creativity and hard work of lawyers.
That’s the theory. And in some cases it is no doubt accurate. In many more cases these days, protesters are often virtue signaling to gain social cred and victim signaling to gain sympathy for their own sake.
Does this version of cancel culture even exist, or is it just fearmongering? Sounds a lot like fearmongering to me.
This is about The Letter
If you haven't read it, you should. Signed by several dozen opinion makers, writers, and commentators including people like David Frum, Gary Kasparov, J.K. Rowling and Norm Chomsky, the authors make the point that the current culture and public debate stifles the free and uninhibited exchange of ideas and is doing significant if not irreparable damage to our society.
The free exchange of information and ideas, the lifeblood of a liberal society, is daily becoming more constricted. While we have come to expect this on the radical right, censoriousness is also spreading more widely in our culture: an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty. We uphold the value of robust and even caustic counter-speech from all quarters. But it is now all too common to hear calls for swift and severe retribution in response to perceived transgressions of speech and thought. More troubling still, institutional leaders, in a spirit of panicked damage control, are delivering hasty and disproportionate punishments instead of considered reforms. Editors are fired for running controversial pieces; books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity; journalists are barred from writing on certain topics; professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class; a researcher is fired for circulating a peer-reviewed academic study; and the heads of organizations are ousted for what are sometimes just clumsy mistakes. Whatever the arguments around each particular incident, the result has been to steadily narrow the boundaries of what can be said without the threat of reprisal.The critical response to this letter from many quarters has been swift. CNN published a typical response in a piece called The Problem with the Letter. Not surprisingly, the CNN piece is not at all about the letter. Instead, and significantly, CNN's complaint is all about who wrote the letter. This brings me back to the Elenor Roosevelt quote. Our country was founded on ideas, ideas coming from great minds. Like the frog in the pot of boiling water, the public discourse in America has gone from ideas to people. From great minded important issues to small minded petty issues. We just celebrated America's birthday. Nowhere was the discussion about the ideas of the first modern government controlled by the consent of the governed. Instead we now focus on who proposed those ideas and left them to us to use. The magnificent ideas contained in the words of government of the people, by the people, and for the people, give way to discussions about, well, people.
After the civil war, Grant, Lincoln, Johnson, and many others spoke about the needs of reunification and provided pardons and amnesty to Confederates in return for loyalty to the United States. That was good then. Now it is bad as we throw those efforts at reconciliation on the trash heap as we once again speak of traitors and treason. So much for coming together. So much for the ideas we were founded on and won a war to preserve.
As is said in The Letter, "The way to defeat bad ideas is by exposure, argument, and persuasion, not by trying to silence or wish them away." I'd add that the way to defeat bad ideas is not to talk about who stated an idea. Great minds discuss ideas. Small minds discuss people.
perhaps why ideas here are always replied with personal insults.
and mindless puppets only discuss what their puppet masters want discussed.
how much better social media, (and traditional mainstream media), would be if not dominated by human bots, pushing both branches of the Wall St Party's agenda, 24/7/365.
divide and conquer.
Teachers ( especially male) were fired for being gay. I’m sure they probably suddenly started getting poor evaluations, but male teachers were afraid to come out for a long time.
I'd say no. Kaepernick wasn't "canceled" for a point of view about police excessive force. He was canceled because he was deliberately provocative. Now that the NFL has accepted kneeling, Kaepernick has taken his schtick to another level by telling America to screw the 4th of July.
A public official expressing an opinion about police issues is one thing. A public offical acting like a pea-brained junior high adolescent is another.
