Education and perhaps defund the police

[Marvin the Martian]

The thread on throwing international students out of the country if their schools go online moved to a discussion on improving education so Black students go to college. I don't think many people don't dream of more Blacks going to college. But what sort of things impair that dream?

Below is a Ted Talk. I've linked it before years ago. It details the problem poor kids (not necessarily Black but often Black) face. The speaker makes the point that a young Black kid gets into a school yard fight and faces an aggravated assault charge, then gets sent back to jail because he can't pay his court fees. Most kids from suburbia do not end up in jail for aggravated assault.

Watch the video and discuss it. I have to say that their is overwhelming evidence (google it yourself) that being extra tough on poor kids to force them on the straight and narrow does not work. It does the opposite of what is intended. This means we need to reform drug laws. As is pointed out in the Ted, suburban white kids aren't stopped and searched for pot nearly as often, frat parties aren't raided nearly as often, why. And if you Google it, suburban kids have options other than jail at a much higher rate than poor kids. And yes, I am using poor but we know that means Black beyond what the percentages should indicate.



Yes, MAYBE there is more to the story than a simple school yard fight. But at face value, does aggravated assault make any sense at all? There is the defund the police tie in. Maybe instead of handing that over to the police it should have gone to a social worker or a psychologist.

 

[vslice2bad]

The thread on throwing international students out of the country if their schools go online moved to a discussion on improving education so Black students go to college. I don't think many people don't dream of more Blacks going to college. But what sort of things impair that dream?

Below is a Ted Talk. I've linked it before years ago. It details the problem poor kids (not necessarily Black but often Black) face. The speaker makes the point that a young Black kid gets into a school yard fight and faces an aggravated assault charge, then gets sent back to jail because he can't pay his court fees. Most kids from suburbia do not end up in jail for aggravated assault.

Watch the video and discuss it. I have to say that their is overwhelming evidence (google it yourself) that being extra tough on poor kids to force them on the straight and narrow does not work. It does the opposite of what is intended. This means we need to reform drug laws. As is pointed out in the Ted, suburban white kids aren't stopped and searched for pot nearly as often, frat parties aren't raided nearly as often, why. And if you Google it, suburban kids have options other than jail at a much higher rate than poor kids. And yes, I am using poor but we know that means Black beyond what the percentages should indicate.

View embedded media

Yes, MAYBE there is more to the story than a simple school yard fight. But at face value, does aggravated assault make any sense at all? There is the defund the police tie in. Maybe instead of handing that over to the police it should have gone to a social worker or a psychologist.

Well, seemed fairly one sided. Interesting the kid always seemed to be in the wrong side if it. Why is that, maybe just dumb luck?

War on drugs, DARE, mandatory minimums, lengthy prison terms specifically for nonviolent crimes. There’s a bunch of things I don’t agree with in this country.

Its like putting a bandage on a gunshot wound. She was addressing the symptoms, never addressed the cause. Address and fix the cause and it will remedy the symptoms. This can’t be done until everyone owns up and takes responsibility. Maybe it’s the worse half, I don’t know, but she simply acknowledged only one half of the problem.

Can’t be a one way street.

 

[DrHoops]

Well, seemed fairly one sided. Interesting the kid always seemed to be in the wrong side if it. Why is that, maybe just dumb luck?

War on drugs, DARE, mandatory minimums, lengthy prison terms specifically for nonviolent crimes. There’s a bunch of things I don’t agree with in this country.

Its like putting a bandage on a gunshot wound. She was addressing the symptoms, never addressed the cause. Address and fix the cause and it will remedy the symptoms. This can’t be done until everyone owns up and takes responsibility. Maybe it’s the worse half, I don’t know, but she simply acknowledged only one half of the problem.

Can’t be a one way street.

I liked the first part of your post, but what do you envision as “owning up” to a situation they are born into?

 

[hoosboot]

The thread on throwing international students out of the country if their schools go online moved to a discussion on improving education so Black students go to college. I don't think many people don't dream of more Blacks going to college. But what sort of things impair that dream?

Below is a Ted Talk. I've linked it before years ago. It details the problem poor kids (not necessarily Black but often Black) face. The speaker makes the point that a young Black kid gets into a school yard fight and faces an aggravated assault charge, then gets sent back to jail because he can't pay his court fees. Most kids from suburbia do not end up in jail for aggravated assault.

Watch the video and discuss it. I have to say that their is overwhelming evidence (google it yourself) that being extra tough on poor kids to force them on the straight and narrow does not work. It does the opposite of what is intended. This means we need to reform drug laws. As is pointed out in the Ted, suburban white kids aren't stopped and searched for pot nearly as often, frat parties aren't raided nearly as often, why. And if you Google it, suburban kids have options other than jail at a much higher rate than poor kids. And yes, I am using poor but we know that means Black beyond what the percentages should indicate.

View embedded media

Yes, MAYBE there is more to the story than a simple school yard fight. But at face value, does aggravated assault make any sense at all? There is the defund the police tie in. Maybe instead of handing that over to the police it should have gone to a social worker or a psychologist.

My business partner and I discovered long ago that his brother ended up with a legal record growing up for something that I skated on multiple times. That record had a huge impact on his life. I avoided that issue. Different cities, different times than now, I'm sure some different circumstances, but I was a middle class suburban white kid and he was a working class large city African-American kid. That conversation with my business partner has stuck with me. I know there aren't easy answers, but it's an issue we can do something about and I don't think the answer is that we need to crack down on suburban white kids.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Well, seemed fairly one sided. Interesting the kid always seemed to be in the wrong side if it. Why is that, maybe just dumb luck?

War on drugs, DARE, mandatory minimums, lengthy prison terms specifically for nonviolent crimes. There’s a bunch of things I don’t agree with in this country.

Its like putting a bandage on a gunshot wound. She was addressing the symptoms, never addressed the cause. Address and fix the cause and it will remedy the symptoms. This can’t be done until everyone owns up and takes responsibility. Maybe it’s the worse half, I don’t know, but she simply acknowledged only one half of the problem.

Can’t be a one way street.

Fair enough, but I will echo Hoops, what is the other half?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

My business partner and I discovered long ago that his brother ended up with a legal record growing up for something that I skated on multiple times. That record had a huge impact on his life. I avoided that issue. Different cities, different times than now, I'm sure some different circumstances, but I was a middle class suburban white kid and he was a working class large city African-American kid. That conversation with my business partner has stuck with me. I know there aren't easy answers, but it's an issue we can do something about and I don't think the answer is that we need to crack down on suburban white kids.

I did not mean to say we should crack down on suburban kids. Rather the opposite, the idea that we have to be tough on Blacks (and poor whites)has a host of unintended consequences so we need more tolerance. Yes, we cannot turn a blind eye to all crime, but some small crimes should have some other redress but police and jail.

And I will back a Koch initiative to remove the criminal checkbox from most jobs.

 

[hoosboot]

I did not mean to say we should crack down on suburban kids. Rather the opposite, the idea that we have to be tough on Blacks (and poor whites)has a host of unintended consequences so we need more tolerance. Yes, we cannot turn a blind eye to all crime, but some small crimes should have some other redress but police and jail.

And I will back a Koch initiative to remove the criminal checkbox from most jobs.

Sorry for being unclear...was totally agreeing with you and offering a personal anecdote to illustrate it. What you're talking about is pretty much the heart and soul of what people are talking about when they speak of the over-policing of urban poor, isn't it? While I'm not onboard for the massive defunding proposals, I am onboard for reallocating some resources to address these kinds of issues as well as mental health and addiction issues.

 

[Rockport Zebra]

In my 28 years in what started out to be Children's Residential Services, until a get tough policy moved us under the Justice Cabinet as the Department of Juvenile Justice, I could count the upper-class youth committed for out of home placements on one hand. I found that the best I could do for my residents was get them a GED and a Job along with a Pell grant and a vocational or a community collage enrollment. I came to this conclusion after talking with a community worker, I asked him in his career how many returning residential youth complete High School. The number in twenty five years of service was an astonishing zero. Disproportionate Minority Confinement was indisputable and every youth except the handful were poor. It gets better, schools in Kentucky are funded buy average daily attendance so a youth that is 16 or 17 with a GED isn't returning to High School costing them money. That is when the push back started from community workers after getting feed back from schools and in some instances the court. My little facility was cranking out GED and Pell grants at a rate of about 60 a year. We were returning youth with a hand delivered aftercare plan and were taking heat for it. The communities wanted us to warehouse these kids for as long a possible. We were turning over 30 beds three or 4 times a year causing more push back. I survived the political turmoil. Regardless of our efforts and there are no hard numbers but about half ended in failure, more charges and prison. Poverty vs privilege is still very much a national problem. Look at it like this, I have been pulled over once in the last 20 years and never get followed around a store. My friends of color which are many and successful, soldiers, Dept. of Justice workers, teachers etc. The difference is the fact that they get pulled over more often and are suspect for shopping. That is the deference.I would tell you a story about my best friend who went looking for a hand gun and was treated rudely by the clerk. His response,No matter they were sold out anyway. Lastly several Judges, well meaning came to visit and asked how they could help me, I stated that it would help if they would stop charging kids with felonies. There is plenty of time for that after they turn 18. A youth with a felony is a goner.

 

[DrHoops]

Sorry for being unclear...was totally agreeing with you and offering a personal anecdote to illustrate it. What you're talking about is pretty much the heart and soul of what people are talking about when they speak of the over-policing of urban poor, isn't it? While I'm not onboard for the massive defunding proposals, I am onboard for reallocating some resources to address these kinds of issues as well as mental health and addiction issues.

I don't think I'm very good at constructing a clear post (my train wreck thread about black on black violence is a prime example). I am absolutely not in favor of defunding police either and agree that changes need to be made. I, unfortunately, don't know enough to understand the structure of how that would play out.

 

[DrHoops]

In my 28 years in what started out to be Children's Residential Services, until a get tough policy moved us under the Justice Cabinet as the Department of Juvenile Justice, I could count the upper-class youth committed for out of home placements on one hand. I found that the best I could do for my residents was get them a GED and a Job along with a Pell grant and a vocational or a community collage enrollment. I came to this conclusion after talking with a community worker, I asked him in his career how many returning residential youth complete High School. The number in twenty five years of service was an astonishing zero. Disproportionate Minority Confinement was indisputable and every youth except the handful were poor. It gets better, schools in Kentucky are funded buy average daily attendance so a youth that is 16 or 17 with a GED isn't returning to High School costing them money. That is when the push back started from community workers after getting feed back from schools and in some instances the court. My little facility was cranking out GED and Pell grants at a rate of about 60 a year. We were returning youth with a hand delivered aftercare plan and were taking heat for it. The communities wanted us to warehouse these kids for as long a possible. We were turning over 30 beds three or 4 times a year causing more push back. I survived to political turmoil. Regardless of our efforts and there are no hard numbers but about half ended in failure, more charges and prison. Poverty vs privilege is still very much a national problem. Look at it like this, I have been pulled over once in the last 20 years and never get followed around a store. My friends of color which are many and successful, soldiers, Dept. of Justice workers, teachers etc. The difference is the fact that they get pulled over more often and are suspect for shopping. That is the deference.I would tell you a story about my best friend who went looking for a hand gun and was treated rudely by the clerk. His response,No matter they were sold out anyway. Lastly several Judges, well meaning game to visit and asked how they could help me, I stated that it would help if they would stop charging kids with felonies. There is plenty of time for that after they turn 18. A youth with a felony is a goner.

Excellent post.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

In my 28 years in what started out to be Children's Residential Services, until a get tough policy moved us under the Justice Cabinet as the Department of Juvenile Justice, I could count the upper-class youth committed for out of home placements on one hand. I found that the best I could do for my residents was get them a GED and a Job along with a Pell grant and a vocational or a community collage enrollment. I came to this conclusion after talking with a community worker, I asked him in his career how many returning residential youth complete High School. The number in twenty five years of service was an astonishing zero. Disproportionate Minority Confinement was indisputable and every youth except the handful were poor. It gets better, schools in Kentucky are funded buy average daily attendance so a youth that is 16 or 17 with a GED isn't returning to High School costing them money. That is when the push back started from community workers after getting feed back from schools and in some instances the court. My little facility was cranking out GED and Pell grants at a rate of about 60 a year. We were returning youth with a hand delivered aftercare plan and were taking heat for it. The communities wanted us to warehouse these kids for as long a possible. We were turning over 30 beds three or 4 times a year causing more push back. I survived the political turmoil. Regardless of our efforts and there are no hard numbers but about half ended in failure, more charges and prison. Poverty vs privilege is still very much a national problem. Look at it like this, I have been pulled over once in the last 20 years and never get followed around a store. My friends of color which are many and successful, soldiers, Dept. of Justice workers, teachers etc. The difference is the fact that they get pulled over more often and are suspect for shopping. That is the deference.I would tell you a story about my best friend who went looking for a hand gun and was treated rudely by the clerk. His response,No matter they were sold out anyway. Lastly several Judges, well meaning game to visit and asked how they could help me, I stated that it would help if they would stop charging kids with felonies. There is plenty of time for that after they turn 18. A youth with a felony is a goner.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

 

[Rockport Zebra]

Excellent post.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

Your are very welcome.That is why I get frustrated when I talk about race and get bitch slapped around here. Age and Experience.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

In my 28 years in what started out to be Children's Residential Services, until a get tough policy moved us under the Justice Cabinet as the Department of Juvenile Justice, I could count the upper-class youth committed for out of home placements on one hand. I found that the best I could do for my residents was get them a GED and a Job along with a Pell grant and a vocational or a community collage enrollment. I came to this conclusion after talking with a community worker, I asked him in his career how many returning residential youth complete High School. The number in twenty five years of service was an astonishing zero. Disproportionate Minority Confinement was indisputable and every youth except the handful were poor. It gets better, schools in Kentucky are funded buy average daily attendance so a youth that is 16 or 17 with a GED isn't returning to High School costing them money. That is when the push back started from community workers after getting feed back from schools and in some instances the court. My little facility was cranking out GED and Pell grants at a rate of about 60 a year. We were returning youth with a hand delivered aftercare plan and were taking heat for it. The communities wanted us to warehouse these kids for as long a possible. We were turning over 30 beds three or 4 times a year causing more push back. I survived the political turmoil. Regardless of our efforts and there are no hard numbers but about half ended in failure, more charges and prison. Poverty vs privilege is still very much a national problem. Look at it like this, I have been pulled over once in the last 20 years and never get followed around a store. My friends of color which are many and successful, soldiers, Dept. of Justice workers, teachers etc. The difference is the fact that they get pulled over more often and are suspect for shopping. That is the deference.I would tell you a story about my best friend who went looking for a hand gun and was treated rudely by the clerk. His response,No matter they were sold out anyway. Lastly several Judges, well meaning came to visit and asked how they could help me, I stated that it would help if they would stop charging kids with felonies. There is plenty of time for that after they turn 18. A youth with a felony is a goner.

Thank you for that. Usually around here, personal experience posts are full of bullshit. Not the case here. Lots to think about, and obviously very genuine. Cheers.

(I still expect that game with you in Bloomington at some point if we ever are allowed to have sports again.)

 

[vslice2bad]

Fair enough, but I will echo Hoops, what is the other half?

You tell me. The half represented in the Ted Talk is that of innocence, dumb luck. Law biding citizens targeted daily by a corrupt system. Probably not completely untrue, but my father would always say.....vslice, it takes two to tango!

You see no accountability in ones actions? Would your son purchase a stolen car? The car wasn’t purchased because the car was stolen, he knew it was stolen.

 

[vslice2bad]

I liked the first part of your post, but what do you envision as “owning up” to a situation they are born into?

I was mainly discussion cause/effect, but yes, accountability. This is why the family structure is vitally important.

I used to hold fast to the philosophy, victim of circumstances. Though I still believe in this mantra it has certainly shifted as I’ve aged. If I find myself in stormy seas I’ll have myself to blame. No sense in raising my hands to the heavens damning God for my bad decisions. Too much of that today and not enough accountability.

Fix the inner city, fix policing specifically in the inner city, fix the family, fix politicians that stay in power, earning wealth from a system that remains static. More importantly, know your enemy. Sorry, couldn’t resist

 

[mcmurtry66]

In my 28 years in what started out to be Children's Residential Services, until a get tough policy moved us under the Justice Cabinet as the Department of Juvenile Justice, I could count the upper-class youth committed for out of home placements on one hand. I found that the best I could do for my residents was get them a GED and a Job along with a Pell grant and a vocational or a community collage enrollment. I came to this conclusion after talking with a community worker, I asked him in his career how many returning residential youth complete High School. The number in twenty five years of service was an astonishing zero. Disproportionate Minority Confinement was indisputable and every youth except the handful were poor. It gets better, schools in Kentucky are funded buy average daily attendance so a youth that is 16 or 17 with a GED isn't returning to High School costing them money. That is when the push back started from community workers after getting feed back from schools and in some instances the court. My little facility was cranking out GED and Pell grants at a rate of about 60 a year. We were returning youth with a hand delivered aftercare plan and were taking heat for it. The communities wanted us to warehouse these kids for as long a possible. We were turning over 30 beds three or 4 times a year causing more push back. I survived the political turmoil. Regardless of our efforts and there are no hard numbers but about half ended in failure, more charges and prison. Poverty vs privilege is still very much a national problem. Look at it like this, I have been pulled over once in the last 20 years and never get followed around a store. My friends of color which are many and successful, soldiers, Dept. of Justice workers, teachers etc. The difference is the fact that they get pulled over more often and are suspect for shopping. That is the deference.I would tell you a story about my best friend who went looking for a hand gun and was treated rudely by the clerk. His response,No matter they were sold out anyway. Lastly several Judges, well meaning came to visit and asked how they could help me, I stated that it would help if they would stop charging kids with felonies. There is plenty of time for that after they turn 18. A youth with a felony is a goner.

You asked several judges to stop charging kids with felonies. it's crazy how the vagaries of who is in these seats and how they view justice determines the lives of so many. the old prosecutor where i am used to run massive child support dockets. overflow in the hall. the dockets would take all day to burn through. and the lion's share of people were young and black. i don't remember the details but it was something like if you missed three months and it totaled more than a certain amount it was charged as a felony. then these people would be thrown in jail.

now i get that you have to support your child. obviously. but there are environmental conditions that make finding work really hard for a substantial number of these people. didn't matter. jail. now what good is that to either the dad (always dads) or the kid. how is that helping either of them.

new prosecutor gets elected. first thing he said is we are de-emphasizing prosecuting child support cases. we're going to find another way.

there is so much about the criminal justice system in dire need of reform.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

You tell me. The half represented in the Ted Talk is that of innocence, dumb luck. Law biding citizens targeted daily by a corrupt system. Probably not completely untrue, but my father would always say.....vslice, it takes two to tango!

You see no accountability in ones actions? Would your son purchase a stolen car? The car wasn’t purchased because the car was stolen, he knew it was stolen.

I am very much a rule follower, my wife makes fun of me for refusing to enter the exit door at a supermarket (for example). But here is the thing, I don't believe people who do walk in the exit should have their lives ruined.

The example she gave was a fight between teenagers. My question is simple, what would happen if that fight was between Carmel teens, would one of them be imprisoned for aggravated assault? Of course if they were, the bond probably wouldn't keep them locked up for an extended period.

So if we accept it is personal responsibility, why do the reactions change depending on if the kid is wealthy or poor? Don't wealthy people need to learn personal responsibility.

Simply put, we have put together a policy which says, "step out of line and we will ruin your life" then we act surprised when people act as if their lives are ruined. There has to be something between "do as you want" and "sit in jail and rot".

As to the stolen car, if it is the one from the story supposedly his uncle bought it for him at an auction. Again, what would have happened to the wealthy kid if he were driving that car?

When I was young, my friends who had the parents who beat them for stepping out of line were the most wild. It is anecdotal, i have no idea if other experiences match that. But that may be what we see play out. I do know from people who study abused animals that if a dog is beaten routinely, if it does wrong or not, it develops one of two personalities. One is total submission, the other is total aggression.

Because of cash bail, we are often sentencing innocent people to sit in jail for long periods. That is as long as one does not believe being arrested = guilt. We are often "beating" people for no reason, or for a minor reason like a fight between teens.