Dribble penetration into the lane

[aajohn2000]

Watched Alabama last night vs Kensucky. Watching Penm State tonight. Possession after possession the guards drive to the basket and either:

1). Get a bucket
2. Draw a foul
3. Hit a cutter
4. pass to open wing


Amazing how simple yet how effective it is.


Our offense is a hot turd. Bitter because I didn’t hit the gamestop stock lottery and parlay into AMC today. So, I am taking my frustrations out on the easy target of my beloved Hoosiers basketball team.

 

[TR32]

Moving WITHOUT the basketball is the way to generate better offense.
Moving with the basketball is how you draw defenders to you.

 

[Wiedersehen]

Watched Alabama last night vs Kensucky. Watching Penm State tonight. Possession after possession the guards drive to the basket and either:

1). Get a bucket
2. Draw a foul
3. Hit a cutter
4. pass to open wing


Amazing how simple yet how effective it is.


Our offense is a hot turd. Bitter because I didn’t hit the gamestop stock lottery and parlay into AMC today. So, I am taking my frustrations out on the easy target of my beloved Hoosiers basketball team.

Ahh. Do you forget who our point guard is?

 

[aajohn2000]

Ahh. Do you forget who our point guard is?

Yes. We haven’t had one since Yogi was wearing the candy stripes.

 

[aajohn2000]

Moving WITHOUT the basketball is the way to generate better offense.
Moving with the basketball is how you draw defenders to you.

Don’t disagree. But you can do both and moving aggressive to the basket also makes the defense move.

 

[TR32]

Don’t disagree. But you can do both and moving aggressive to the basket also makes the defense move.

Franklin and Phin and Galloway are the best best for this. Rob has been a little more assertive the past 2 games. Franklin has been comfortable driving most of the season.
Relatively speaking, they don't want to clog the lane as they try to feed TJD as option#1. It's a pretty good option.

 

[aajohn2000]

Franklin and Phin and Galloway are the best best for this. Rob has been a little more assertive the past 2 games. Franklin has been comfortable driving most of the season.
Relatively speaking, they don't want to clog the lane as they try to feed TJD as option#1. It's a pretty good option.

It is a good "option". With our offense, it appears to be the only option. When our guards shoot a reasonable amount of free throw attempts, it's more times than not due to fouls geared at stopping the clock, not from aggressive play going to the rim. Our offense is very one dimensional and frankly, easily defended. I'd like to see more movement under the rim and to the rim. If we are going to start three guards, let's use them more in cutting to the basket. Have Trayce and Race move out of the lane to create space and then dish to one of them on a cut and/or pass to outside to an open Leal / Hunter / AF, someone who can hit a three, or simply make a damn bucket and maybe even draw a foul. Wouldn't that be something.

Consider this, in 9 Big Ten games, our two starting guards of RP and AD are 32 - 48 combined. 48 free throw attempts by a starting senior and junior guard over the course of 9 games for an average of 5.3 combined per game. That's putrid. Also consider this, if you remove the Iowa game where AD got to the line a season high 10 times due to late fouls by Iowa to stop the clock, this goes to 23 - 38. RP really contributes very little at the FT line. In fact, out of 9 big ten games, he's not even attempted a free throw in 5 of them. Not one foul drawn on a shot, regardless of being in the lane. I feel both our guards have shown the ability to dribble drive and penetrate. Perhaps it's what you say and the stand around the three point line game passing the ball around and trying to get to Trayce is our "best option". However, that option has us with a 4-5 record in league play. Perhaps we mix it up a bit and try using our guards more as weapons vs exclusively as ball distributors.

 

[kkott]

It is a good "option". With our offense, it appears to be the only option. When our guards shoot a reasonable amount of free throw attempts, it's more times than not due to fouls geared at stopping the clock, not from aggressive play going to the rim. Our offense is very one dimensional and frankly, easily defended. I'd like to see more movement under the rim and to the rim. If we are going to start three guards, let's use them more in cutting to the basket. Have Trayce and Race move out of the lane to create space and then dish to one of them on a cut and/or pass to outside to an open Leal / Hunter / AF, someone who can hit a three, or simply make a damn bucket and maybe even draw a foul. Wouldn't that be something.

Consider this, in 9 Big Ten games, our two starting guards of RP and AD are 32 - 48 combined. 48 free throw attempts by a starting senior and junior guard over the course of 9 games for an average of 5.3 combined per game. That's putrid. Also consider this, if you remove the Iowa game where AD got to the line a season high 10 times due to late fouls by Iowa to stop the clock, this goes to 23 - 38. RP really contributes very little at the FT line. In fact, out of 9 big ten games, he's not even attempted a free throw in 5 of them. Not one foul drawn on a shot, regardless of being in the lane. I feel both our guards have shown the ability to dribble drive and penetrate. Perhaps it's what you say and the stand around the three point line game passing the ball around and trying to get to Trayce is our "best option". However, that option has us with a 4-5 record in league play. Perhaps we mix it up a bit and try using our guards more as weapons vs exclusively as ball distributors.

I'm telling you, I think there's a basic fundamental missing when we have the ball: turn and face the basket in triple threat position, and then maybe throw in a shot fake or pass fake once in awhile. 80% of our passes are made out of position and not even looking at the basket, let alone threatening a shot or drive. Makes us very easy to defend. I see it so often as I watch our offense, I think it's how they are being coached to do it, but it makes us very easy to defend, imo (sacrifing fakes for speed in moving/reversing the ball, maybe?). I'd love to hear from Dakich or someone else who knows more about offenses, but is "triple threat" not a part of our offense or more modern offensive theory? It's how we were always taught growing up.

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

Trice from Wisky is a killer at this. Yogi was too. When you are in dire need of a basket, clear the lane, give it to your seasoned PG, and let him do his thing. It's either a lay up, free throws, or both. When MD started closing the gap last night and Wisky was clanking 3s...Trice would get the ball, take it to the hoop, and MD couldn't stop him.

kkott is right about the triple threat...again, I'm an old shit, but we were taught this in middle school ball.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

I'm telling you, I think there's a basic fundamental missing when we have the ball: turn and face the basket in triple threat position, and then maybe throw in a shot fake or pass fake. 80% of our passes are made out of position and not even looking at the basket, let alone threatening a shot or drive. Makes us very easy to defend. I see it so often as I watch our offense, I think it's how they are being coached to do it, but it makes us very easy to defend, imo. I'd love to hear from Dakich or someone else who knows more about offenses, but is "triple threat" not a part of our offense or more modern offensive theory? It's how we were always taught growing up.

The ball stops when you turn and face, which allows the defense time to recover if out of position on D.

Sometimes you don't want the ball stopping in the middle of a set, especially if the set isn't drawn up to get that kid a shot.

Still, there is a place for it. TJD will face up near the top of the key and drive if he sees the defender out of position, especially if the post is clogged. Brunk did it a few times after catching in the middle of the zone, and made a bunch of short jumpers against someone.

But, if you are running a set designed to get your guard going downhill for a drive and kick, it makes no sense to have every kid who touches the ball before that guard to also face up--it would just give the defense time to recover.

I agree though, it is frustrating when Phin, who comes off a good game against Iowa, is open but doesn't even look at the basket because he is a drone, running the set that was called.

Same with Race, although he hasn't shot it well this year, so him shooting well from 3 is probably wishful thinking.

 

[.Gerdis]

To do this you need good spacing, and execution with a purpose. Too often I see us passing just to make a pass, or dribbling into the lane with seemingly no purpose. Durham generally seems to at least try to draw contact, but he doesn’t have the physical strength and often gets too wild. Phin has the strength, but seems tentative. It drives me nuts to see him drive, turn away from the basket in the lane and circle back out. Trey seems to have a better understanding of when to continue the attack, or pass back out. But, too often our spacing is poor, limiting how effective the pass back out can be.

 

[aajohn2000]

W

I'm telling you, I think there's a basic fundamental missing when we have the ball: turn and face the basket in triple threat position, and then maybe throw in a shot fake or pass fake. 80% of our passes are made out of position and not even looking at the basket, let alone threatening a shot or drive. Makes us very easy to defend. I see it so often as I watch our offense, I think it's how they are being coached to do it, but it makes us very easy to defend, imo. I'd love to hear from Dakich or someone else who knows more about offenses, but is "triple threat" not a part of our offense or more modern offensive theory? It's how we were always taught growing up.

Would love to hear @Fredsbeirhaus take on this or anyone else with expertise.

 

[aajohn2000]

To do this you need good spacing, and execution with a purpose. Too often I see us passing just to make a pass, or dribbling into the lane with seemingly no purpose. Durham generally seems to at least try to draw contact, but he doesn’t have the physical strength and often gets too wild. Phin has the strength, but seems tentative. It drives me nuts to see him drive, turn away from the basket in the lane and circle back out. Trey seems to have a better understanding of when to continue the attack, or pass back out. But, too often our spacing is poor, limiting how effective the pass back out can be.

Well stated. I see what you are seeing. I also think that RP has the ability to be more involved and productive in our offense. I don't expect a performance night in and night out like he did vs Iowa. But that game is proof positive of what he is capable of. While he only attempted 4 free throws, it's far more than his avg of 1.2 per game. He also attempted 12 field goals total in that game. Again, it's just one game and each matchup is different and Iowa's defense leaves a lot to be desired. However, it goes to show that he is capable and we simply need more of it from our guards, but RP specifically. Perhaps he is just a "drone" and running the offense how CAM is wanting it. But for crying out loud, it makes every game a grinder and more times than not, is resulting in a loss. Freaking change it up and let's do more with our guards.

 

[kkott]

Trice from Wisky is a killer at this. Yogi was too. When you are in dire need of a basket, clear the lane, give it to your seasoned PG, and let him do his thing. It's either a lay up, free throws, or both. When MD started closing the gap last night and Wisky was clanking 3s...Trice would get the ball, take it to the hoop, and MD couldn't stop him.

kkott is right about the triple threat...again, I'm an old shit, but we were taught this in middle school ball.

That's the frustrating thing to me about Rob. I feel like he has the tools to be that guy... except a PG that shoots 80% on FTs is such a weapon. We need that out of our PG, whether it's Rob, Lander or whoever, but we need 2 of those guys on our roster at all times.

 

[kkott]

The ball stops when you turn and face, which allows the defense time to recover if out of position on D.

Sometimes you don't want the ball stopping in the middle of a set, especially if the set isn't drawn up to get that kid a shot.

Still, there is a place for it. TJD will face up near the top of the key and drive if he sees the defender out of position, especially if the post is clogged. Brunk did it a few times after catching in the middle of the zone, and made a bunch of short jumpers against someone.

But, if you are running a set designed to get your guard going downhill for a drive and kick, it makes no sense to have every kid who touches the ball before that guard to also face up--it would just give the defense time to recover.

I agree though, it is frustrating when Phin, who comes off a good game against Iowa, is open but doesn't even look at the basket because he is a drone, running the set that was called.

Same with Race, although he hasn't shot it well this year, so him shooting well from 3 is probably wishful thinking.

Obviously you can't do the same thing every time, or else it makes you easier to defend. I'm not talking about everytime... but having a rhythym and getting the defense used to that, and then changing it is what creates the opportunity, whether it's a skip pass in bball or a hard count in football. Because our guys are (to me) mindlessly focused on moving the ball without facing the basket, we become much easier to guard. Yes, stopping would give the defense time to recover... but it also makes them defend a point and position on the floor. Passing the ball through an offensive player who has his back to the basket and is no threat to drive or pass also gives extra time to the defense because the defender doesn't have to make a decision to stop and defend that guy; they know the first threat to score will at worst be the next guy to touch the ball, so that's who I'm worried about now, not the guy with the ball. You're conceding anticipation to the defense in my mind, which to me is bad offense and makes you easier to defend.

 

[B_Town_Buford]

Heya everyone

I seen the title of this here thread and my main Hoss @Cavanagh.13 would like to know more about this double - penetration stuff.