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Do tax cuts lead to higher wages

I had forgotten about that break in 2004. It seems to have gone exactly as one would expect.

A couple of points. This was repatriation of Corp monies off shore. That is monies parked off shore doing nothing for American companies or the American people. It is the result of stupid governmental policies so since we can't show the direct impact on wages and employment I guess we should just leave it parked off shore or pass new legislation that will force those dirty capitalists to bring it back so that our Gov can spend it on us.

Second: money going to share holders isn't a good thing?

Third: the rich people really do spend the money they have. Drive through most affluent areas right now and you see a lot of million dollar houses being built by....you got it, carpenters, electricians, masons, etc. there is a huge shortage of trades people right now. Wages are higher to attract people. My son in law just came out off Lincoln tech and was hired by a BMW dealer who needs mechanics to service those Beamers that those nasty rich people bought.
 
Markets can and do react to demand. The velocity of money is not a constant. Bringing back them money does not guaranty anything to the overall economy.

Look at the St Louis Fed chart.

This is obviously correct -- an infusion of supply of capital doesn't necessarily result (immediately, anyway) in expansion. It's more like fuel in a fuel tank -- you still have to step on the accelerator to go....but you aren't going to go anywhere when you do if the tank isn't sufficiently full.

But what you're saying does not constitute an argument for leaving the artificial barrier to capital repatriation in place.

I have yet to hear a good argument for maintaining the status quo. It seems that what reticence there is about it amounts to nothing but the old familiar -- and vapid -- "tax cuts for the rich!" thing.
 
A couple of points. This was repatriation of Corp monies off shore. That is monies parked off shore doing nothing for American companies or the American people. It is the result of stupid governmental policies so since we can't show the direct impact on wages and employment I guess we should just leave it parked off shore or pass new legislation that will force those dirty capitalists to bring it back so that our Gov can spend it on us.

Second: money going to share holders isn't a good thing?

Third: the rich people really do spend the money they have. Drive through most affluent areas right now and you see a lot of million dollar houses being built by....you got it, carpenters, electricians, masons, etc. there is a huge shortage of trades people right now. Wages are higher to attract people. My son in law just came out off Lincoln tech and was hired by a BMW dealer who needs mechanics to service those Beamers that those nasty rich people bought.


Of course wealthy people buy a lot of things...but that is a very poor way to look at the economic impact of a tax policy. You need to look at the % of marginal income that will be spent vs saved.

Extreme example....

Say you as a govt, are going to cut taxes by $1,000 total. You could give a $20 reduction to 50 people...or a $500 reduction to 2 people.

The 50 people are much more likely to spend their entire $20 than the 2 people are to spend their entire $500.

It's the marginal impact that matters when determing economic impact of tax policy. Every study shows that the further up the income level you go...the higher % of income you save. That's natural....because once your basic needs are met....everything else is very discretionary.

I'm not advocating higher taxes on the wealthy....but certainly find it ridiculous in our current fiscal situation to possibly be considering cutting the taxes for the wealthy whatsoever.
 
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A couple of points. This was repatriation of Corp monies off shore. That is monies parked off shore doing nothing for American companies or the American people. It is the result of stupid governmental policies so since we can't show the direct impact on wages and employment I guess we should just leave it parked off shore or pass new legislation that will force those dirty capitalists to bring it back so that our Gov can spend it on us.

Second: money going to share holders isn't a good thing?

Third: the rich people really do spend the money they have. Drive through most affluent areas right now and you see a lot of million dollar houses being built by....you got it, carpenters, electricians, masons, etc. there is a huge shortage of trades people right now. Wages are higher to attract people. My son in law just came out off Lincoln tech and was hired by a BMW dealer who needs mechanics to service those Beamers that those nasty rich people bought.

But which has more impact, money back to the 1% or money back to the middle class? Are we better off when 1% of us buys a new dishwasher, or when 35% of us do?

Please note, I have twice said I am not opposing this tax change. I am not, but you insist on painting this as anti wealthy. My point is don't sell it a cut to Bill Gates as some big boon to me. That is it, let's be honest on what this is. Yes, SOME of it will trickle down. But this is not the government seeking to improve the lives of the middle class. It flat out is not, the same amount removed and put into infrastructure would be far better for Joe Middle Class. But the corporate tax needs fixed. Lower it because it is the right thing. Or better, follow Goat's idea of eliminating it and taxing Joe Wealthy the same as if they worked for that money
 
Markets can and do react to demand. The velocity of money is not a constant. Bringing back them money does not guaranty anything to the overall economy.

Look at the St Louis Fed chart.

This chart from your 2004 article?

fredgraph.png


Obviously you cannot simply look at velocity in a vacuum and the correlation with repatriation is not something I have looked into.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but my point was that some velocity, even if it is low, is better than none (cash sitting in foreign bank accounts).
 
But which has more impact, money back to the 1% or money back to the middle class? Are we better off when 1% of us buys a new dishwasher, or when 35% of us do?

Please note, I have twice said I am not opposing this tax change. I am not, but you insist on painting this as anti wealthy. My point is don't sell it a cut to Bill Gates as some big boon to me. That is it, let's be honest on what this is. Yes, SOME of it will trickle down. But this is not the government seeking to improve the lives of the middle class. It flat out is not, the same amount removed and put into infrastructure would be far better for Joe Middle Class. But the corporate tax needs fixed. Lower it because it is the right thing. Or better, follow Goat's idea of eliminating it and taxing Joe Wealthy the same as if they worked for that money

Depends on the price of the dishwasher.


/tic
 
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This is obviously correct -- an infusion of supply of capital doesn't necessarily result (immediately, anyway) in expansion. It's more like fuel in a fuel tank -- you still have to step on the accelerator to go....but you aren't going to go anywhere when you do if the tank isn't sufficiently full.

But what you're saying does not constitute an argument for leaving the artificial barrier to capital repatriation in place.

I have yet to hear a good argument for maintaining the status quo. It seems that what reticence there is about it amounts to nothing but the old familiar -- and vapid -- "tax cuts for the rich!" thing.

My point was simply that the arguments the administration are bogus, but some people will fall for them.
 
My point was simply that the arguments the administration are bogus, but some people will fall for them.

So what else is new?

The next time I see a public campaign for or against a policy actually match up with reality will be the first.

It's kinda like people opposing reimportation of drugs from Canada on the grounds of drug safety. Um, yeah.

There are very good reasons we shouldn't do that. But safety isn't one of them. The actual reasons we should resist such a temptation aren't the kinds of things that are terribly persuasive to most people. But that's not necessarily a problem with the arguments themselves.
 
This chart from your 2004 article?

fredgraph.png


Obviously you cannot simply look at velocity in a vacuum and the correlation with repatriation is not something I have looked into.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but my point was that some velocity, even if it is low, is better than none (cash sitting in foreign bank accounts).

what I am saying is that the markets, in most cases, has found ways to expand the money supply through credit markets. Right now credit is reasonably easy right now. The Fed is likely to raise rates in the short term so why are looking to give lower rates at a time when the economy is heating up. We have increased rates counteracting whatever impact the repatriation.
 
Assuming the corporate tax cuts go through, it will be interesting to see the result. I am skeptical firms will hand out money to employees just because they have more money. Or hire additional employees just because they have more money. Generally speaking, if a firm can get the 200 employees it needs at $12.75/hour, that is what they will pay no matter how much more profitable they become. However, there is a subset of employees in a firm that the firm really find outstanding. If the firm has more money, it may be willing to use that money to keep that employee should another offer come along.So there may be some benefit there. CNN story on White House explanation.

Is there a compelling case that business will raise wages just because the money is there? And if that is true, why haven't the already record profits led to higher wages?

I am not against lowering corporate taxes. Lowering them AND removing deductions so they pay what they should makes sense. I am just not sold it is a windfall to a night janitor at Apple. But that is how it is being sold.

anyone who thinks employers hire or pay based on revenues, rather than need, knows absolutely nothing about business.

and employers will voluntarily share their wealth with their workers on the same terms as Charlton Heston would give up his gun.

that said, a private businessman can share the wealth if he so chooses, but few do.

once a company goes public, that becomes impossible even if the CEO wished so.

fund managers and activist investors make any kind of generosity on the part of management even more impossible than it once was.

and it's only getting worse. not better.
 
anyone who thinks employers hire or pay based on revenues, rather than need, knows absolutely nothing about business.

and employers will voluntarily share their wealth with their workers on the same terms as Charlton Heston would give up his gun.

that said, a private businessman can share the wealth if he so chooses, but few do.

once a company goes public, that becomes impossible even if the CEO wished so.

fund managers and activist investors make any kind of generosity on the part of management even more impossible than it once was.

and it's only getting worse. not better.

If being a small business owner is so lucrative you should jump in and make your own fortune. I have always wished public sector employees actually had to run a business and make a profit before being handed a tax payer funded pay check that included benefits and wages no private sector employer could ever match and stay afloat.
 
If being a small business owner is so lucrative you should jump in and make your own fortune. I have always wished public sector employees actually had to run a business and make a profit before being handed a tax payer funded pay check that included benefits and wages no private sector employer could ever match and stay afloat.
Not many people blame small business on wages. Corporate America drives wages and benefits, the neighborhood pharmacist cannot compete with Wal-Mart in wages, the mom and pop store cannot compete with Cummins. Most of us know that.

The problem tends to be the number of corporations that desperately want to hand out $50 million golden parachutes and demand pay cuts from workers.
 
Not many people blame small business on wages. Corporate America drives wages and benefits, the neighborhood pharmacist cannot compete with Wal-Mart in wages, the mom and pop store cannot compete with Cummins. Most of us know that.
People in Bloomington used to work for GE and RCA, and could afford a modest home and decent cars and a vacation and maybe an adult toy or two. Now they work at Cook, and care barely make ends meet. That's the bottom line.
 
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what I am saying is that the markets, in most cases, has found ways to expand the money supply through credit markets. Right now credit is reasonably easy right now. The Fed is likely to raise rates in the short term so why are looking to give lower rates at a time when the economy is heating up. We have increased rates counteracting whatever impact the repatriation.

Why not? Do you think the economy is too overheated with inflation taking below 2%?
 
As Lawrence Summers points out, the Trump administration's claims are preposterous:

[Trump's CEA Charirman Kevin] Hassett throws around the terms scientific and peer-reviewed, yet there is no peer-reviewed support for his central claim that cutting the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 20 percent would raise wages by $4,000 per worker. The claim is absurd on its face. The cut in corporate tax rates from 35 percent to 20 percent would cost slightly less than $200 billion a year. There is a legitimate debate among economists about how much the cut would benefit capital and how much it would benefit labor. Hassett’s “conservative” claim that the cut would raise wages by $4,000 in an economy with 150 million workers is a claim that workers would benefit by $600 billion — or 300 percent of the tax cut!
As explained here, the economics of these outlandish claims make no sense in reality:

The theory endorsed by the CEA relies on three steps to get from corporate tax cuts to higher wages. First, the corporate tax cut increases companies’ after-tax returns on investment. As a result, firms will make more investments in plant and equipment than they would in a higher-tax-rate environment. Second, greater investment by firms leads to higher productivity by the workers who put those investments to work. Third and finally, workers will receive increased wages in line with those productivity gains.

Unfortunately, this theory just doesn’t map onto today’s reality. For one thing, it is doubtful corporate investment would increase. Today’s corporate investments are not unduly burdened by taxes. In fact, quite the opposite. Thanks to the intersection of different tax preferences, the effective (real-world) corporate tax rate on debt-financed investments in equipment today is negative. That means taxpayers as a whole already subsidize these investments. Moreover, there is no evidence that companies today are capital constrained — interest rates remain near record lows, and credit is plentiful. Companies like Apple find it trivial to raise large sums via borrowing.

Beyond this, the administration’s tax cut proposal is coupled with a territorial tax system, which permanently exempts foreign income from taxation; this will further tilt the playing field in favor of foreign, rather than US, investment. The CEA’s argument for wage increases is based on an enormous amount of new investment occurring in the United States, yet the administration also proposes to simultaneously cut US taxes on foreign income to zero. (Previously, foreign income was taxable in the United States upon repatriation.)

Even if a burst of new US investments were to occur, it is unclear that more investments in computers and robots would increase overall demand for labor. While the workers left operating the machines might be more productive than they were previously, such investments also displace current workers.

We also have a great deal of data on productivity gains versus wage growth. The two were closely linked for decades, but since about 1980 they have diverged, with wage growth falling far behind productivity growth, for reasons having nothing to do with corporate tax burdens. This means investors are capturing an ever-increasing share of productivity gains at the expense of workers. The CEA paper acknowledges that this problem has existed in the recent past, but then assumes it will disappear. But it is unclear why the proposed tax cuts will provide the magic elixir required for higher productivity to translate into wage gains.

Finally, America’s most successful firms already capture economic returns far greater than that required to make their investments worthwhile. (Economists call these supersized returns “economic rents.”) Reducing the corporate tax rate provides a windfall to investors in those firms, but it does not lead to greater investment. In fact, taxing supersized returns does not distort investment at all, since investment decisions are not affected by taxes on rents. So, the benefits from cutting the tax rate on economic profits in these cases redound entirely to shareholders.
It doesn't surprise me that hucksters like Trump and Hassett are selling the Brooklyn Bridge again. I wish it surprised me that so many people are lining up to buy it again. But it is just flat stupid to imagine that tax cuts that overwhelmingly benefit the wealthy are really designed to help average people. There are much easier and more obvious ways to do that -- if anyone were actually interested in that.
 
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A couple of points. This was repatriation of Corp monies off shore. That is monies parked off shore doing nothing for American companies or the American people. It is the result of stupid governmental policies so since we can't show the direct impact on wages and employment I guess we should just leave it parked off shore or pass new legislation that will force those dirty capitalists to bring it back so that our Gov can spend it on us.

Second: money going to share holders isn't a good thing?

Third: the rich people really do spend the money they have. Drive through most affluent areas right now and you see a lot of million dollar houses being built by....you got it, carpenters, electricians, masons, etc. there is a huge shortage of trades people right now. Wages are higher to attract people. My son in law just came out off Lincoln tech and was hired by a BMW dealer who needs mechanics to service those Beamers that those nasty rich people bought.
Great Post Sir!!!!
 
Beyond this, the administration’s tax cut proposal is coupled with a territorial tax system, which permanently exempts foreign income from taxation; this will further tilt the playing field in favor of foreign, rather than US, investment. The CEA’s argument for wage increases is based on an enormous amount of new investment occurring in the United States, yet the administration also proposes to simultaneously cut US taxes on foreign income to zero. (Previously, foreign income was taxable in the United States upon repatriation.)
This is precisely the one that shows the ignorance of the Trump voters who won him the northern states. They voted for him to brinng jobs back to the US from overseas, cancel NAFTA and such. He hasn't canceled NAFTA yet and now he's pushing a tax proposal that incentivizes offshore factories and investments. Why would any company hire American workers if they can do it overseas tax free?​
 
If being a small business owner is so lucrative you should jump in and make your own fortune. I have always wished public sector employees actually had to run a business and make a profit before being handed a tax payer funded pay check that included benefits and wages no private sector employer could ever match and stay afloat.

i never mentioned "small business" in my post.

i mentioned "private business".

while "private" could be construed as meaning small, that's not how i was using it.

my point was, if "private", at least the owner has the option to share the wealth some. (i'll let you comment on how often that happens).

if a business is "public", that option doesn't even exist.

btw, by "public", i mean issues stock. not working for the govt.
 
I'm just going to drop this here:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...01k-contributions-at-2400-per-year-2017-10-20

Lobbyists and others in the retirement and financial services industries who have spoken to congressional staff and committee members say lawmakers are looking at proposals that would allow 401(k) participants to contribute significantly less than what is currently allowed in a traditional tax-deferred 401(k). An often mentioned amount is $2,400 a year. It isn’t clear whether that would only apply to 401(k)s or IRAs or both.
Sure would throw a wrench in my plans for the next three years.
 
I'm just going to drop this here:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...01k-contributions-at-2400-per-year-2017-10-20

Lobbyists and others in the retirement and financial services industries who have spoken to congressional staff and committee members say lawmakers are looking at proposals that would allow 401(k) participants to contribute significantly less than what is currently allowed in a traditional tax-deferred 401(k). An often mentioned amount is $2,400 a year. It isn’t clear whether that would only apply to 401(k)s or IRAs or both.
Sure would throw a wrench in my plans for the next three years.


Haha....I cannot imagine any politician in the GOP possibly stupid enough to actually propose something like that. It would be a mutiny.....maybe only removing the home interest deduction would receive worse blowback.

The GOP has gone fully brain dead.
 
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Haha....I cannot imagine any politician in the GOP possibly stupid enough to actually propose something like that. It would be a mutiny.....maybe only removing the home interest deduction would receive worse blowback.
And it's fvcking stoopid to boot. People need a vehicle to replace pensions, and this allows them to save via payroll deduction and get some tax advantages in the process. The alternative is to further burden Social Security to provide a livable benefit, financed by payroll taxes but with no accumulation of wealth to the wage earner.
 
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The Fed is looking at raising rates. Current inflation rate is 2.2%. The Fed is looking for a 2.0% rate.

The Fed has been raising rates and everyone anticipates another hike in December. But the pace has been far slower and flatter than expected.

Core inflation is only up 1.7% yoy thru Sept, below the Fed's target.

Aside from asset prices, this is one of the fattest recoveries we've had. I don't see why there is a rush to dampen mediocre economic growth.
 
This is probably too radical to be a good idea, but what about this:

1. Tax capital gains at same rates as normal income.
2. Reduce corporate income tax to 0%.

I have no idea if those two changes would balance each other out. Probably not. You'd probably need to add a top marginal increase, as well. But still, just on principle, doesn't that seem like the way to go? Stop taxing the money in the hands of companies, and start taxing it fully in the hands of private citizens who take it as income?

Could be an option. How would that effect legal entity structure decisions?
 
The Fed has been raising rates and everyone anticipates another hike in December. But the pace has been far slower and flatter than expected.

Core inflation is only up 1.7% yoy thru Sept, below the Fed's target.

Aside from asset prices, this is one of the fattest recoveries we've had. I don't see why there is a rush to dampen mediocre economic growth.
The conventional wisdom has unnecessarily constrained our economic growth. In practice, the Fed doesn't have a 2 percent inflation target, it has a 2 percent inflation ceiling. This is generally regarded as a sensible and sober-minded policy. I disagree.

We've suffered from a shortfall of aggregate demand since 2008, but our opinion leaders' concern has focused on nonexistent inflation. (The current interest rate on 10-year inflation-indexed Treasuries is only 0.49 percent.) This shows that in practice the Fed mostly disregards its full employment mandate in favor of its price stability mandate. And it holds this rule even though there's still enough slack in labor markets to prevent any significant wage increases that might even theoretically fuel inflation.

People wonder why we have income inequality? Add this to the mix.
 
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Could be an option. How would that effect legal entity structure decisions?
Obviously, it would present an even bigger incentive than there currently exists for people to use corporate expenditures for personal purposes, which would require stronger enforcement, and perhaps even stronger regulation of closely-held corporations. But that's a concern that already exists; only the financial incentive to break the rules would change.

On another note, dropping the corporate rate to zero would perhaps negate some of the benefits of organization as an LLC instead of a closely-held corporation. In days gone past, one would argue that the taxes paid by corporations are a trade-off for the extra protections against personal liability, but I think the law on LLCs in most states have developed to the point that this trade-off is mostly illusory, anyway.
 
I'm just going to drop this here:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...01k-contributions-at-2400-per-year-2017-10-20

Lobbyists and others in the retirement and financial services industries who have spoken to congressional staff and committee members say lawmakers are looking at proposals that would allow 401(k) participants to contribute significantly less than what is currently allowed in a traditional tax-deferred 401(k). An often mentioned amount is $2,400 a year. It isn’t clear whether that would only apply to 401(k)s or IRAs or both.
Sure would throw a wrench in my plans for the next three years.


This idea didn't make it through Monday morning.... predictably.

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/356658-trump-promises-no-change-to-your-401k


And therein lies the rub to this entire thing....every place policy writers could look for substantial revenue has a very strong, vocal constituency.

I predicted at the beginning of the year that both ACA repeal and tax reform would fail. That former is dead....the latter may well follow the same track.
 
The conventional wisdom has unnecessarily constrained our economic growth. In practice, the Fed doesn't have a 2 percent inflation target, it has a 2 percent inflation ceiling. This is generally regarded as a sensible and sober-minded policy. I disagree.

We've suffered from a shortfall of aggregate demand since 2008, but our opinion leaders' concern has focused on nonexistent inflation. (The current interest rate on 10-year inflation-indexed Treasuries is only 0.49 percent.) This shows that in practice the Fed mostly disregards its full employment mandate in favor of its price stability mandate. And it holds this rule even though there's still enough slack in labor markets to prevent any significant wage increases that might even theoretically fuel inflation.

People wonder why we have income inequality? Add this to the mix.

Since we're being pedantic:

The Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) judges that inflation at the rate of 2 percent (as measured by the annual change in the price index for personal consumption expenditures, or PCE) is most consistent over the longer run with the Federal Reserve's mandate for price stability and maximum employment. Over time, a higher inflation rate would reduce the public's ability to make accurate longer-term economic and financial decisions. On the other hand, a lower inflation rate would be associated with an elevated probability of falling into deflation, which means prices and perhaps wages, on average, are falling--a phenomenon associated with very weak economic conditions. Having at least a small level of inflation makes it less likely that the economy will experience harmful deflation if economic conditions weaken. The FOMC implements monetary policy to help maintain an inflation rate of 2 percent over the medium term.
 
Since we're being pedantic:

The Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) judges that inflation at the rate of 2 percent (as measured by the annual change in the price index for personal consumption expenditures, or PCE) is most consistent over the longer run with the Federal Reserve's mandate for price stability and maximum employment. Over time, a higher inflation rate would reduce the public's ability to make accurate longer-term economic and financial decisions. On the other hand, a lower inflation rate would be associated with an elevated probability of falling into deflation, which means prices and perhaps wages, on average, are falling--a phenomenon associated with very weak economic conditions. Having at least a small level of inflation makes it less likely that the economy will experience harmful deflation if economic conditions weaken. The FOMC implements monetary policy to help maintain an inflation rate of 2 percent over the medium term.

So which are you advocating for?
 
Since we're being pedantic:

The Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) judges that inflation at the rate of 2 percent (as measured by the annual change in the price index for personal consumption expenditures, or PCE) is most consistent over the longer run with the Federal Reserve's mandate for price stability and maximum employment. Over time, a higher inflation rate would reduce the public's ability to make accurate longer-term economic and financial decisions. On the other hand, a lower inflation rate would be associated with an elevated probability of falling into deflation, which means prices and perhaps wages, on average, are falling--a phenomenon associated with very weak economic conditions. Having at least a small level of inflation makes it less likely that the economy will experience harmful deflation if economic conditions weaken. The FOMC implements monetary policy to help maintain an inflation rate of 2 percent over the medium term.

if average adjusted wages are falling, and the price of everyday essentials are rising, (which is the reality since Reagan), what's the name for that condition?

used to be that inflation was the product of rising wages.. now it's because of increased margins.

in a market where labor price is stagnate or dropping, or productivity is up more than wages, and capital is cheap, higher prices are simple for higher profits.

you can argue otherwise in individual cases, but when the cost of goods and services as a whole goes up in such a market, it's simply higher margins driving higher prices.

theoretically, in "competitive markets" this shouldn't happen. (and in truly competitive markets it isn't).

thus, while we'd love to think true competitive markets dominate our daily essentials, obviously they don't.
 


A capitalist system rewards the capitalists first...not sure why it is such a shocker for Cohn unless he knew it was going to be taped.
 
Do tax cuts lead to higher wages?
No.
Look at the total profits of the Fortune 500 over the past 5, 10 or 20 years and in each case you
will see that profits have greatly increased while "working man" wages have stagnated. Earnings for the C-suite have skyrocketed while the "average"worker wages have been stagnant,
Increasing the bottom line, as would happen with the corporate tax cuts,does not lead to higher wages.
Saying tax cuts will not lead to higher wages is not a theory but, unlike the stream of incorrect statements made by Paul Ryan, is based on what has actually happened.
 
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