I was stunned to find out that after one year, I could openly kill myself and my insurance would still pay out.
College Funding...
- Thread starter NickStromboli
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I was stunned to find out that after one year, I could openly kill myself and my insurance would still pay out.
I started out as a business major at IU and hated it from day 1. I got an A in the first accounting class: total joke. Then I took K201 where they taught an obsolete Microsoft program to weed people out. It was just like joining a frat. I could not believe I was paying for this excrement. I dropped business as a major very soon after. I had roommates that did business and they showed me what they were doing: total joke.
I took many classes on business law and have studied it. You don't need any business background to learn it. Business is not considered a prelaw major.
Like I said before, there is an accepted myth that you need the pseudo business undergrad degree for an entry level business job now. A bunch of people have said the sky is green, so now it is green.
The fact that countless people without business degrees have done very well in business says everything about business as a major. It simply isn't necessary.
I remember someone in my frat telling me that K201 and one other course (maybe X201?) were just as hard as my organic chemistry class. I laughed my ass off and then said I would take business courses the following semester (I had a ton of credits so I had time to take a bunch of other stuff). My science GPA was barely a 3.0. My non-science GPA (including four or five business school courses) was a 3.93 or something like that. I got an A in both K201 and the other allegedly hard course.
I don't think anyone in this thread said majoring in business was harder than majoring in liberal arts or science (definitely not science). It's just easier to get an entry level job in the business world and those jobs tend to pay pretty well for a 22 year old. And while kids at elite Ivy League schools may get entry level jobs for top finance or consulting firms, it's difficult for IU liberal arts students to do the same. I knew Wells Scholars who got turned down for most every major i-bank and consulting frim in the same year Kelley students with less impressive overall resumes landed those same jobs. Same goes for accounting.
Crimson, I graduated in 2008. I was very realistic about my expectations. I planned to be a prosecutor and start out at around $45k. Trust me, I did plenty of homework before enrolling. At any other time my expectations would've been easily met. I just graduated at the worst time possible. Very few of us could get an internship during our 3L summer. You know you're screwed when you're willing to work for free and no one will hire you.
I'm doing well in business, but I started out at the bottom rung (23.5k in 2000) and drug myself up to where I am today. The problem is the company has probably hired hundreds of people like me and they didn't make it or cut it.
If I had majored in Finance, or Accounting I would jumped 3-4 rungs in the ladder right off the bat and be in a much better position to move forward. At this point in my career a Bachelors means nothing because I have 15 yrs of people management and performance to lean on, but it sure makes a difference when you are starting out.
It does impact your upward mobility if you are looking to be a high level executive. I don't know too many CFO's without finance degree's or CEO's for that matter in my business and I'll never get the experience or knowledge for that in Operations.
Doesn't matter to me because I don't have the ability or inclination to hold a spot like that.
I don't think anyone ever said that business courses were very difficult...they aren't. At least I didn't find them nearly as difficult as the hard sciences that I took. I-Core exams were a bit more rigorous, but still nothing over the top. Corp finance classes (3/400 level) were a bit challenging too...but none of that is really the point. Most people look at college as a means to get a decent job...and not much else.
The purpose of college is to pursue academics: if a person isn't doing this, they should be elsewhere. If this coincides with a profession, that is fine. If it doesn't, then said subject doesn't belong in college.
You are trying to state that college is something it is not and was never meant to be.
You are trying to state that college is something it is not and was never meant to be.
I have a law degree from Bloomington. It was the cheapest place I could go once scholarships and CoL were figured in. Glad I went that route. The flexibility of less loans has probably been more beneficial than a degree from a slightly more prestigious or better located school.
All in all, I probably wouldn't recommend law. If you're smart and want to put in 60 hrs a week, you'll make good money most places... or you'll find something that pays enough to let you do something you like.
I would avoid loans, imo. I have doctor friends who make well into the six figures who absolutely hate their job but have massive 6 figure loan debt. Most of them are stuck for at least a decade... and then life.
All in all, I probably wouldn't recommend law. If you're smart and want to put in 60 hrs a week, you'll make good money most places... or you'll find something that pays enough to let you do something you like.
I would avoid loans, imo. I have doctor friends who make well into the six figures who absolutely hate their job but have massive 6 figure loan debt. Most of them are stuck for at least a decade... and then life.
Please get back to discussing these so called blowjob majors. Can I just volunteer for the labs? Gettin not givin to be clear.
As a liberal arts BA (IUB) and MS (Syracuse) grad and a Kelley MBA (IUB) grad, I can respectfully say that you are deluded.
One does not have to go to college to go into business, but it sure as hell helps. As a BA, my choices were limited to sales at Enterprise or sales at other companies (not that there's anything wrong with sales but it's not for me). My friends in business had a variety of options and could go straight into marketing without the stepping stones through sales. Clearly hiring managers differentiate between BAs and business grads, for right or for wrong. I'm fairly sure it's because they bring marketable skills to the table.
News flash - business *is* an academic pursuit. Stop trying to minimize the functions in business into something you can learn at McDs. (I was a former taco slinger at the Bell in HS and you can bet your bippy that I wasn't learning business strategy, amortization, options pricing, customer acquisition models, etc. The closest I came to learning anything about business was around operations, and at the simplest level.) Economic theory, strategy, forecasting, and pricing, for example, all have theoretical bases that you learn about and apply. Most business decisions are made through data analyses and/or hands-on development and application of mathematical models. Business classes arm you with the fundamentals of analysis and critical thinking skills so that you can develop your own decision models and strategies to make the increasingly challenging decisions you encounter as you move forward in your career.
Your comments about K201 and Accounting are ridiculous. "Oh! You found entry level business classes easy! How shocking!" That's why they are entry level classes, very similar to early 100-200 level Psych and Chemistry classes being "easy" (to which I can testify). No one is arguing that business classes are the toughest, but to argue that there are no academics and that entry level classes are too "easy" is asinine.
Regarding your comments about college as an academic pursuit ONLY, I think you're really naive. First, it's possible to fully engage in learning while still pursuing a good career option - they are not mutually exclusive. Second, we are living in a time where marketable "hard" AND "soft" skills are valued by employers. Why not take advantage of this by pursuing a more specifically oriented degree, especially if you enjoy it?
My decision to transfer into business (marketing) is the best one I ever made, and my MBA is the best investment I ever made. It allowed me to jump hurdles and have a very lucrative and enjoyable career path to date. I only wish I had done it sooner (or in undergrad).
Furthermore, I would love it if my daughter went to Kelley as an undergrad. The integrated program is phenomenal and the opportunity remains to take liberal arts courses. However, I've got another 11 years before that happens. She's my little artist so I'm not sure what will happen...
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You basically just advocated for the mathematics major. A lot of the math you described does not require a college degree to perform. You want to study math, major in it, don't totally water it down.
The process of pursuing the truth, however you want to describe the reasoning process, is classic arts and sciences territory. See my response in the above paragraph. I believe I also read something regarding economics: once again, a separate academic pursuit, see above paragraph, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the financial benefit of getting people to believe the sky is green and business schools to line up jobs to these believers. However, it doesn't make this process logical, nor does it make business an academic topic.
You basically just advocated for the mathematics major. A lot of the math you described does not require a college degree to perform. You want to study math, major in it, don't totally water it down.
The process of pursuing the truth, however you want to describe the reasoning process, is classic arts and sciences territory. See my response in the above paragraph. I believe I also read something regarding economics: once again, a separate academic pursuit, see above paragraph, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the financial benefit of getting people to believe the sky is green and business schools to line up jobs to these believers. However, it doesn't make this process logical, nor does it make business an academic topic.
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Great minds think alike. I've told them that they are paying half. Of course the difference between their Stafford loans and what we pay I have figured they'd owe my about $10-15K after 4 years so I don't plan on telling them they owe me anything. And like you, I will likely continue to pay their loans while they get on their feet and possibly even pay it off depending on what happens between now and then.
The process of pursuing the truth, however you want to describe the reasoning process, is classic arts and sciences territory.[/QUOTE]
You don't seem to be practicing what you preach. In this thread you have several well-accomplished and well-educated people explaining their experiences to you and yet you continue to reject the possibility that anything they say may be correct or may better help you understand the world. That's not very liberal arts..............
[/QUOTE]
You don't seem to be practicing what you preach. In this thread you have several well-accomplished and well-educated people explaining their experiences to you and yet you continue to reject the possibility that anything they say may be correct or may better help you understand the world. That's not very liberal arts..............[/QUOTE]
I said as much in my final paragraph regarding the hiring process in business. I don't need anybody to tell me where the bear shit in the buckwheat on that one: I've lived it.
However, it insults my intelligence and the intelligence of anybody who has majored in math, econ, or any other arts and sciences subject to listen to people say that they have studied a very watered down form of the skills offered in these subjects and know as much or more than they do about them or are somehow more qualified to practice them. If somebody walks into my law office and tells me that he knows as much as I do about the law because he watched Better Call Saul last night, I'm going to tell him to go pound sand.
It is also extremely disappointing that the business world totally ignores the people who actually study the subjects that contain the skills they are supposedly looking for (as stated by the previous poster), the best and the brightest, those who actually pursue real academic topics, and, instead, pick those who read the Cliff Notes and pursued a pseudo degree. Many of said arts and sciences folks ignore the "business world" for more intellectually challenging, rewarding, and, often times, more lucrative pursuits, and rightly so. But, it doesn't exactly say a whole lot about business now, does it?
You don't seem to be practicing what you preach. In this thread you have several well-accomplished and well-educated people explaining their experiences to you and yet you continue to reject the possibility that anything they say may be correct or may better help you understand the world. That's not very liberal arts..............[/QUOTE]
I said as much in my final paragraph regarding the hiring process in business. I don't need anybody to tell me where the bear shit in the buckwheat on that one: I've lived it.
However, it insults my intelligence and the intelligence of anybody who has majored in math, econ, or any other arts and sciences subject to listen to people say that they have studied a very watered down form of the skills offered in these subjects and know as much or more than they do about them or are somehow more qualified to practice them. If somebody walks into my law office and tells me that he knows as much as I do about the law because he watched Better Call Saul last night, I'm going to tell him to go pound sand.
It is also extremely disappointing that the business world totally ignores the people who actually study the subjects that contain the skills they are supposedly looking for (as stated by the previous poster), the best and the brightest, those who actually pursue real academic topics, and, instead, pick those who read the Cliff Notes and pursued a pseudo degree. Many of said arts and sciences folks ignore the "business world" for more intellectually challenging, rewarding, and, often times, more lucrative pursuits, and rightly so. But, it doesn't exactly say a whole lot about business now, does it?
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You basically just advocated for the mathematics major. A lot of the math you described does not require a college degree to perform. You want to study math, major in it, don't totally water it down.
The process of pursuing the truth, however you want to describe the reasoning process, is classic arts and sciences territory. See my response in the above paragraph. I believe I also read something regarding economics: once again, a separate academic pursuit, see above paragraph, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the financial benefit of getting people to believe the sky is green and business schools to line up jobs to these believers. However, it doesn't make this process logical, nor does it make business an academic topic.[/QUOTE]
Again, you're full of shit. Business math is not 2+2=4. You have no idea what you're talking about. Zero. Have you done statistical modeling? Talk to Wayne Winston (a nationally known quant wizard) about the complexity of statistical modeling that is pivotal and central to the Kelley program. And guess what? I don't have to be a ****ing math major to become well-versed in that aspect of math. That's the beauty of a business degree.
Your flawed premise is that a person has to be a master of one specific topic in order for it to be academic. And you're wrong. There is value in learning about a variety of integrated topics, and doing that doesn't make it any less academic in nature, as much as you'd like to believe the opposite.
You don't seem to be practicing what you preach. In this thread you have several well-accomplished and well-educated people explaining their experiences to you and yet you continue to reject the possibility that anything they say may be correct or may better help you understand the world. That's not very liberal arts..............[/QUOTE]
I said as much in my final paragraph regarding the hiring process in business. I don't need anybody to tell me where the bear shit in the buckwheat on that one: I've lived it.
However, it insults my intelligence and the intelligence of anybody who has majored in math, econ, or any other arts and sciences subject to listen to people say that they have studied a very watered down form of the skills offered in these subjects and know as much or more than they do about them or are somehow more qualified to practice them. If somebody walks into my law office and tells me that he knows as much as I do about the law because he watched Better Call Saul last night, I'm going to tell him to go pound sand.
It is also extremely disappointing that the business world totally ignores the people who actually study the subjects that contain the skills they are supposedly looking for (as stated by the previous poster), the best and the brightest, those who actually pursue real academic topics, and, instead, pick those who read the Cliff Notes and pursued a pseudo degree. Many of said arts and sciences folks ignore the "business world" for more intellectually challenging, rewarding, and, often times, more lucrative pursuits, and rightly so. But, it doesn't exactly say a whole lot about business now, does it?[/QUOTE]
At least two of the people in this thread, HoosierPeach and me, have undergraduate degrees in Liberal Arts. Personally, I have a B.A. in Political Science and a B.S. in Finance from IU Bloomington and then a JD from IU School of Law Indianapolis. Since I earned degrees in both an arts major and a "practical" major, it's not as if I am talking out of my ass.
I know what it takes to succeed in both disciplines and there is value in both. I think you are putting way too much value into obtaining a liberal arts education and the students who study liberal arts. In my experience at IU, there were motivated, highly intelligent, successful and hard-working students in both COAS and Kelley. Similarly, there were stupid, lazy and middling students in both COAS and Kelley. Let's not act for one second that everyone majoring in a liberal arts degree is the "best and brightest" or are actual academics.
The only point being made on this thread, at least by me, is that getting a business degree (or informatics, or computer sciences, etc.) is the best way to get a viable job right out of college. Certainly there are liberal arts students who get hired by businesses, especially from the Ivys, but it's harder sledding for them. That may be right or wrong, it really doesn't matter, because it is what it is.
You don't seem to be practicing what you preach. In this thread you have several well-accomplished and well-educated people explaining their experiences to you and yet you continue to reject the possibility that anything they say may be correct or may better help you understand the world. That's not very liberal arts..............[/QUOTE]
I said as much in my final paragraph regarding the hiring process in business. I don't need anybody to tell me where the bear shit in the buckwheat on that one: I've lived it.
However, it insults my intelligence and the intelligence of anybody who has majored in math, econ, or any other arts and sciences subject to listen to people say that they have studied a very watered down form of the skills offered in these subjects and know as much or more than they do about them or are somehow more qualified to practice them. If somebody walks into my law office and tells me that he knows as much as I do about the law because he watched Better Call Saul last night, I'm going to tell him to go pound sand.
It is also extremely disappointing that the business world totally ignores the people who actually study the subjects that contain the skills they are supposedly looking for (as stated by the previous poster), the best and the brightest, those who actually pursue real academic topics, and, instead, pick those who read the Cliff Notes and pursued a pseudo degree. Many of said arts and sciences folks ignore the "business world" for more intellectually challenging, rewarding, and, often times, more lucrative pursuits, and rightly so. But, it doesn't exactly say a whole lot about business now, does it?[/QUOTE]
You don't seem to understand that the sum is greater than the parts...business isn't just "business"...it's a series of disciplines that are integrated into a whole that allow people to move between HR and Finance and Marketing...each requires a different skill set.
And yes, I AM more qualified as an MBA for my marketing role than I was as an Arts and Sciences MS. Comparing that to Better Call Saul is a load of BS and hyperbole.
[/QUOTE]Again, you're full of shit. Business math is not 2+2=4. You have no idea what you're talking about. Zero. Have you done statistical modeling? Talk to Wayne Winston (a nationally known quant wizard) about the complexity of statistical modeling that is pivotal and central to the Kelley program. And guess what? I don't have to be a ****ing math major to become well-versed in that aspect of math. That's the beauty of a business degree.
Your flawed premise is that a person has to be a master of one specific topic in order for it to be academic. And you're wrong. There is value in learning about a variety of integrated topics, and doing that doesn't make it any less academic in nature, as much as you'd like to believe the opposite.[/QUOTE]
Anybody that majors in math is infinitely more qualified than you: you admit it! You are actually celebrating the fact that you only have a watered down knowledge of this subject and that the business gatekeepers will let you in and keep out those who actually studied math and know it in depth. Furthermore, if you only need a half assed understanding of math, why do you need to go to college to learn it?!?
You can double major in math and an arts and sciences major, even triple major if you want, toss economics in there. That takes care of any watered down math in a business degree and your reasoning skills. You have defined the pseudo business degree as a watered down, grotesque Frankenstein of subjects that already exist. Why not just study the actual subjects the way they were meant to be studied, gain the greatest understanding of these topics, and adapt to the "business world" later?
The only business topics that come close to an actual major are accounting and finance because they use math, and it is totally watered down and obsolete due to the actual mathematics major. Marketing? Give me a ****ing break. The beauty of the business degree is you read the cliff notes and the gatekeepers only accept tickets from those who read the cliff notes.
Your flawed premise is that a person has to be a master of one specific topic in order for it to be academic. And you're wrong. There is value in learning about a variety of integrated topics, and doing that doesn't make it any less academic in nature, as much as you'd like to believe the opposite.[/QUOTE]
Anybody that majors in math is infinitely more qualified than you: you admit it! You are actually celebrating the fact that you only have a watered down knowledge of this subject and that the business gatekeepers will let you in and keep out those who actually studied math and know it in depth. Furthermore, if you only need a half assed understanding of math, why do you need to go to college to learn it?!?
You can double major in math and an arts and sciences major, even triple major if you want, toss economics in there. That takes care of any watered down math in a business degree and your reasoning skills. You have defined the pseudo business degree as a watered down, grotesque Frankenstein of subjects that already exist. Why not just study the actual subjects the way they were meant to be studied, gain the greatest understanding of these topics, and adapt to the "business world" later?
The only business topics that come close to an actual major are accounting and finance because they use math, and it is totally watered down and obsolete due to the actual mathematics major. Marketing? Give me a ****ing break. The beauty of the business degree is you read the cliff notes and the gatekeepers only accept tickets from those who read the cliff notes.
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I think there is something messed up as I tried several times and kept getting the same error.
Edit: Of course it works in this one. I am a bad message board member.
It is what it is? That is the sorriest of sorry arguments. Slavery? It is what it is. My wife is cheating on me with 5 other guys? It is what it is. I'm getting fat from eating at McDonald's every day. It is what it is. College has been transformed into something it was never meant to be and ruined by bullshit market principles? It is what it is
I never said every person in every subject is Einstein. But, the business world excludes everybody in arts and sciences, not just the duds. The people that are the best at math. The people that are the best at science. The people that are the best at reasoning. The people that are the best at economics (perhaps not as much, but still). Instead, the gatekeepers let in the people that don't know these skills as well as the arts and sciences people because business and stuff. I'd agree: it is insane and drags down the quality of the business world with it. Personally, I've seen some pretty ****ing stupid people in the business world, and it truly boggles the mind.
I never said every person in every subject is Einstein. But, the business world excludes everybody in arts and sciences, not just the duds. The people that are the best at math. The people that are the best at science. The people that are the best at reasoning. The people that are the best at economics (perhaps not as much, but still). Instead, the gatekeepers let in the people that don't know these skills as well as the arts and sciences people because business and stuff. I'd agree: it is insane and drags down the quality of the business world with it. Personally, I've seen some pretty ****ing stupid people in the business world, and it truly boggles the mind.
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Most contestability periods are 2 years. Which company offers one...just in case.
Prelaw. Double majored in Poly Sci and English Lit. Minored in General Music Studies. Thought about getting a second minor in History, but ran out of time.
And then you took on a "crap ton of debt" to continue the noble academic path of a....... lawyer? Sounds like you wanted to get paid just like the rest of us. Maybe you should have pursued a PHD and become a professor since you care so much about the integrity of education.
Get into Phi Beta Kappa and acquire seven more years of real education and we'll talk about it, Skippy.
That is the great part of being an attorney: you can help people, partake in an intellectually challenging profession, and make a shit ton. Were Abe Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and Thurgood Marshall not noble? I never said I had a problem with real academic subjects that coincide with a profession.
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Yea... well, it's not like they offer a degree in it
After seeing the title of this thread, I definitely didn't anticipate opening it and seeing a guy who majored in Poly Sci and English Lit telling other people to get real degrees....
Plus a law degree. And, yes, the arts and sciences have been the focus of undergraduate study since day 1.
I assume you are viewing college, especially undergrad, through market principles and probably the new, desperation economy. If so, as has been stated, you are missing the true purpose of college, especially undergrad.
Poly Sci is a bullshit subject and law school is a bullshit school. I know, I have a BA in Poly Sci and a JD. I enjoyed my education in both undergrad and law school, but don't act as if liberal arts and then law school provide some mythical academic training that cannot be obtained in business school.
The purpose of college should be to aquire skills and knowledge that are likely to lead to a good job. At least it should be when the taxpayers are funding it through student loans.
